Having recently been with a provider who delivered what was for me an excellent GFE but in subsequent conversation revealed that she really doesn't like sex and gets "nothing" from her encounters with clients, the following thoughts arose.

1) While one should not be deluded into thinking that these encounters are anything more than business....to have any illusions so decisively shattered is a bummer.  But its an easy one to get over.

2)  More of a question....I wonder what the breakdown is of providers who really "enjoy" what they do as providers versus those who really don't enjoy it.  Additionally can the client usually tell.  In this case I certainly was fooled.

I often read in reviews phrases such as "she clearly loves/enjoys her work or loves what she does etc....and I never paid any attention to it.  Going forward however I think my own enjoyment would be so much higher knowing that my partner was enjoying herself rather than enduing the encounter.

Any thoughts.....(I hope this is not an old or hackneyed question on this board).

DG

-- Modified on 10/12/2007 9:49:21 AM

Many Ladies have told me privately that they hate fucking hobbyists, and it's ONLY about money.

There are some that like having sex with geeks, and fat, old bald, guys, but let's face it most don't.

Of course the female responses to this will be, "I love what I do".

one a black lady who provides for the money. She is extremely pleasant, conversant and does her job very well. I have never been disappointed after I have seen her but she is definitely providing a service and is compensated accordingly.

There is a second lady I see who is a little older perhaps a little less attractive but when the clothes come off she lights up. She loves sex and sex toys and is like a little kid at Christmas saying, "Gimme"! and she really likes to give and to receive. She is a sexaholic.

Two ladies ... both great to be with ... two different motivations.

All this said, the drive is different from one lady to the next and each has her own unique reasons for being in this arena.

Our is but to enjoy the ride and not to think to hard about the why's.

OFF

Unrealted Gratuitous Boobiage Photo

Right now, it's really hard for people to connect and find any level of true intimacy.

Just take a look around -  

divorce rate is at 50%
homosexuality has grown by leaps and bounds
more reports of child molesting
spousal homicide/suicides


Many women who provide, have given up and are just trying to make their money.

Men men whom hobby, have given up and are just trying to get some good sex.


When we as men can realize, that true intimacy takes place when you can get to know and connect with a person, then we will see that casual sex/paid sex, is nothing more than just a pacifying drug, where we are getting a high feeling, from the endorphins produced by our body.


I once checked out a PSO forum (Phone Sex Operator), which was private, but I managed to get by their security by posing as a female PSO.....

I did this because I was curious to hear what the ladies thought.

Most of them will laugh at the men, and remark about "what fools they are", for PAYING them, when they could just masturbate on their own.

They talked about what a curse it is for men to have dicks, that we cannot control.



So you see my friend, many women are engaged in TOTAL manipulation, of you and your dick, if you aren't in control of it yourself.

Whatever delusions we allow ourselves to become deluded with, just fatten their purses, and drain our wallets, as well as waste our time and energy from focusing on anything substantial and meaningful.


If you're wondering what I'M doing here then, well this is something I've only learned very recently, and I only hobby as an occasional fantasy, although that is becoming less and less, because now my TRUE fantasy, is to have a happy and meaningful relationship, with someone I can share a love with.

I know that sounds hella corny, but on the real?  If you don't have someone to share things and memories with.....................


I was pretty despondent when my last relationship didn't work, and sometimes I'm pretty daunted at how difficult things are today, with all the crazy influences of the world..........

but just conceding defeat, and pacifying myself with a drug, is not the way I want to live the rest of my life.


Just my .02

I think you have to take the words "enjoy what they do" with a grain of salt.  They may like the money, freedom and flexibility that escorting as an occupation offers but I sincerely doubt they look forward to the sex act all of the time. If a guy treats you well, pays without playing head games and has a sense of humor the time spent can be fun for both parties but the fact is, if she is really any good at the job, you will never know if she is actually enjoying it or not.

and I remembered also seeing a "semi BBW". She was one of the most passionate providers I have ever seen.

The lady had great reviews and was open to pretty much anything ... which we did. She enjoyed sex. So I am not sure you can categorize or taht your question can be completely answered.

That said, in my experience ethnicity also seems to play a part. I believe some ethnic groups seem to be more passionate while others are much more clinical. As an example, asians though great providers seem more clinical than passionate ... but they want you to and work very hard to be please.

That's why I said earlier, simply enjoy the ride.

OFF

Related Gratuitous Boobiage Photo

-- Modified on 10/12/2007 10:33:34 AM

i love sex and enjoy what i do, but that doesn't mean i enjoy every encounter. but i'm submissive, my fulfillment comes from pleasing others, so if i succeed in thoroughly pleasing a client then i am satisfied, even if the experience itself was difficult or unpleasant.

also, i try to avoid seeing men who are all wrapped up in trying to please a woman...because they will definitely not get what they are looking for in me. i do not care about my own physical sexual response or feelings, hence, i rarely orgasm and never wish to honestly. the worst for me is having a client do something with the main or sole intent being to please me...ugh!!! however everyone who sees me knows that i am very fulfilled by pleasing and serving, it's my place and where i feel comfortable. i never show any signs of distress or pain, unless of course that's what pushes that particular gent's buttons.

We are all human. We have days where our sex drives and hormones are out of control and we want nothing more than to have great sex. Then there are other days where the drive has lulled and we could take it or leave it.

This doesn't mean that we don't love sex just because we have ups and downs in our libidos, I for one, absolutely do, but I may not love each and every encounter. I am not a machine, nor do I claim to be easy to please. Some women can cum with a few gentle touches, others need you to work a little more. And with most women, for the sex to be amazing, it requires a bit of an emotional component.

Does an orgasm = enjoyment? Not always. I have come to appreciate the intense pleasure that the encounter produces throughout the whole act rather than just the orgasm itself. And if a man is really trying to please me in a session, you can be sure I am enjoying myself. Just the simple fact that he thought enough to try (even if it is for selfish reasons) makes me enjoy any session more.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE to please more than anything and I don't mind if the session is all about him. But for me, great sex can't always be purely physical, which is why I think sessions improve over time as you begin to connect with the other person. I don't think it is fair to expect that your first experience with anyone is going to be genuinely mindblowing for both of you. In all reality, there is going to be SOME acting on her part (and maybe even yours) until she gets to know you. As long as you enjoy the session, I really don't see any harm in that. Connections take time to develop.

It is nice to see that a man can recognise that great sex needs a true connection for it to be real.

I had a very successful man tell me once that whenever two people talk, there is a sale being made.  

There can be the obvious sales type situations where goods or services are being negotiated, but also we all (as I am trying to do now) try to "sell" our point of view on a topic.

I am sure that some providers connect with specific individuals from time to time and are able to have a very fulfilling sexual experience.  

I also feel that more often than not, the average person she sees is just that, an average looking guy.  The next time you go to a mall, look at all the guys.  That cross section of men is typical of she sees.  

Over time, I think it would become very difficult to not become somewhat calloused when trying to please someone who may not be the next Brad Pitt or Keanu Reeves.  The providers ability to "sell" her reactions (if the hobbyist is looking for a GFE) is what makes us think she loves being with us or not.  

That to me is the key.  Does she make me think she loves what she is doing when she is with me?

I also believe there are certain clients that the providers actually look forward to seeing again because the two of them had that special connection that allows them to really love what they are do when they are together.

Wow, a lot of cynical responses...

Certainly it's true that the dynamic of traditional male/female relationships in society has changed (divorce rates, unwillingness of men to marry/remarry, etc) which has lead to a boom in this arena.  Women live on average 20% longer than men,  and in conventional careers it's very difficult for a woman to make enough money to save for retirement, medical, etc.     We're expected to have careers, have children, be a sex kitten, a best friend, etc... there are tremendous expectations on us in a contemporary relationship.  And I think there are many who would say that women's lib did more damage than good to both women's lives and the male/female relationship.  So, I would think there definitely are women out there who do this just for the money.  The ones that are worried about their futures, worried they'll never get married, and know they can't rake in a six figure salary, raise a family and have a life.

Myself, I wouldn't do anything just for the money.  Life is too short, and I want to enjoy every minute of my life.  I love what I do, and I love meeting new people, and I love to please and be pleased.  I prefer longer engagements, because it allows for a connection, and an intimacy that is very difficult to foster in an hour.  Perhaps if you're feeling you're not getting a connection, try a provider who prefers longer engagements and fewer clients.   Oh, did I mention I also love men!!!





-- Modified on 10/13/2007 5:09:49 PM

You could usually tell if you're alert and know what to look for. Usually you have to think back on it.

The fact is, many of them love the sex, like many of the guys they meet, but would still retire from the business in a heart-beat if they had enough money. I've heard or read more than a few say that.  

If they do love it, it's in the form of a kink.

i have to disagree, just a wee bit. i do think that casual (including "pay") sex has a valid place in the world, and can be healthy and vital part of someone's life, male or female.

while i can respect the feelings of those who feel differently, for me emotional intimacy has never enhanced the sexual experience. sex is not necessarily better with someone i love or even like. actually these emotional bonds can hinder sexual expression and freedom at times. i know that it was a year or more into our relationship before i felt completely comfortable, open and free having sex with my Husband, simply because we loved each other so much and for me sex and love just never went together.

what i feel is that there should be a healthy balance of both...one should not live a sexual life totally devoid of true intimacy, even love, but neither should one find sexual expression SOLELY through those means, because if you are, trust me you're missing out on a big beautiful nasty world out there.

Shows how messed up....or perhaps empathetic...I am...lol

DG

-- Modified on 10/12/2007 11:14:18 AM

A provider who does not enjoy sex should not be in the business. I love sex.

xox Tabie

This is a great question that I have been pondering myself, recently. When I talk w/other providers while checking references I usually get no more than his "bedroom convenience score", as I call it. And it makes me wonder why the girl meets men at all if she's not going to have a great time? I'm not a good liar and if I'm not having fun a guy will know it by my actions and expressions.

But bedroom time is just one aspect of the time I hope to spend with a Friend. The intial nervous thrill of meeting, the toast as we have a drink, the conversation we have... All the rituals of courtship really turn me on. Dancing with him makes me wonder if he will lead or follow in bed. Listening to him talk lets me imagine his groans of ecstacy. The instinctive things he does, like wrap his coat around me, show me that he will be mindful of my pleasure...

Taking enough time to get into the mood with him will make me more hungry for him, and leave me just as hungry for our next meeting. And since every minute is not spent alone and naked, I want to know we like each other with our clothes on, as well. Then he will feel natural asking me to be his date to a party, or taking me to his favorite restaurant to feed me exotic treats. And every moment can be spent delicately teasing each other until we have to make excuses to get away and tear each other's clothes off again!

I guess there are some women who just crave sexual recognition, and I'm glad to be one of them!

Oh my gosh.....you sound so wonderful to be with...I wouldn't care if we never got to f*ck....LOL
and I'm being serious!!  

DG...volunteering to completely reconize, interpret and intertwine (I think that's dutch for entertain!)

-- Modified on 10/12/2007 12:27:54 PM

a college student who is escorting to pay her student loan, even if she loves sex, would not enjoy fucking a 40+ man.

However for some reason women's sex drive increases dramatically when they hit 30 and of course they prefer to have sex with a man who can satisfy them and knows what he's doing instead of a 24 years old boy with not enough experience who gets off in 2 minutes and has never heard of DATY..

After all, it's meant to feel good.

I think a goodly number of the clients, especially the ones that would frequent this board, would take pains to be clean and gentlemenly.  Perhaps we are a bit past our prime physically, but I can still get it up and keep it up for a reasonable amount of time.

I suppose it is metaphysically absurd to think we can know with absolute assurance what another is feeling, but you would think that some providers get some enjoyment from this at least some of time.

I guess you are probably right....on the law of averages.   Maybe (and I admit to fitting the demographic you paint) I was hoping to be above average....*smile*

DG

Do we love sex? well, I can only speak for myself but let me try to explain. I have a few mottos in life and three of them are these:

1. Do what you love and you will never work a day in your life.
2. Do every job as if you are being paid a million dollars to do it.
3. Never do anything for money that you wouldn't enjoy just as much if you were doing it for free.
I have a few more listed in my BLOG

The reason I feel sad when I look at some of the first few posts is I get the feeling that a lot of you have met ladies who are going through the motions and their hearts have grown cold.
(ladies) If this isn't your calling, your highest expression of who you are at this point in your life then you are selling more than your flesh, you are selling your soul.

So, do I love sex? Well yes, I love everything about this life that I have chosen. Sex is a wonderful part of who I am and I am so very thrilled to be able to express that with so many wonderful gents. It is so cute when guys say things like "There are some that like having sex with geeks, and fat, old bald, guys, but let's face it most don't." That is such a male thought that I can hardly relate. Being able to share in a passionate time together has nothing to do with what's on the outside. Men are so visual so I am probably going out on a limb trying to tell you this. The ladies that are gifted with what it takes to bring this kind of happiness to the masses really have a gift of insight. This is one reason it is so easy for us to be able to make a date with you before we even know what you look like. After a few emails and reading your posts and reviews I see who you are (or at least the part of you that you will be bringing to the encounter). I am so looking forward to our time together. I am looking forward to the physical part and the emotional part. And unless I have just attracted someone to me that has no business being there, then I LOVE THE SEX! I love the skilled and unskilled, the virile and the impotent, the genetically gifted and the not so genetically gifted. I love every one who comes with an open heart and leaves a better man.

A note to anyone who is doing this soley for the money... It is not worth it! No amount of money is worth not being able to wake up with a smile and feel fulfilled by what you have created.

Outstanding post.  My kind of lady. I have one like you, and our time together is as you relate.

That's why the brain is the largest sex organ in the human body....

Aim2plezeu

Very very nice . . . .

Geez, Heather's post makes me want to cuddle up and cry! Such a thoughtful and well thought out post! I'm in love! *grin*

and the thought was that the lady I was with was very sweet, and kind.  Clearly one wishes for good things in life... sharing a nice evening is a good thing.  

You are very sweet and your post is perfect.

Honestly...I wouldn't be here if I don't enjoy sex. I enjoy the touch of a hand on my thigh, the feel of a warm wet tongue...down there, the feeling of being FILLED! Hey...my body tells the truth. LOL If I'm not wet, I'm not into it, but if I AM wet...I may be INTO it, but may not be fully fullfilled. Thats when the toys come out.  Doesn't mean I don't enjoy what I do. I'm just a challenge. ~winks~  
That also doesn't mean the person I'm with isn't a good luver, it just means I need more stimulation than some.
I'm a pleaser as Lilli..I luv to please, and will try and do almost anything to make them happy and feel their toes curling. Thats just how I am.
Everyone is different and enjoy sex differently. You have to test yourself around to find the right ingredient to your passions. Have fun doing it too!!
xoxo
~DI~

I have encountered exactly one legitamate lady who did not enjoy the hobby.  Now I have been with some who we just did not click... but the ladies that happened with, did have a bit of fun- mostly watching me fumble around the room!

Seriously, all of the ladies (with the exception of one) were into the meeting as much as me, and on one EXCEPTIONAL NIGHT - more!  That provider clearly was different, and circumstances made that night what it was - a 6+ hour sexual feast with me there - merely to service her... and her needs.  no, it was not me... it was the external circumstances in her life.  I got lucky!

That is why I look to the personality of the lady - if I cannot see it, I don't go.  So far - I have been extremely lucky....   lol  

We've come too far to turn back now!  hahaha


Seriously though, I know what you are saying, and I DO agree that casual sex is/can be great....   I mean, I'm a freak, so don't get me wrong.......

but what I'm saying, is that once A MAN begins/continues to spend his time pursuing it, it becomes a drain on his money, time, energy, spirit..........


FOR WOMEN though, it's different......   y'all get offered sex all the time, so you don't have the same drains that we do, from "the hunt".


Anyways, when is our honeymoon?!?!


Get your sexy azz on out here to LA, so I can fulfill one last fantasy!!!!!!

You are the most wonderful provider for saying what you just did.  Having seen you, I can honestly say that you love what you do.  And I loved having the opportunity to do it with you.  You are a doll.  What more can I say?

I am a Heather fan!!!!!  (and her sister is a gem too)  Had to add that.

Swim

Heather, that was one of the most insightful replies I've seen on these boards. Being a provider is like every other job people do - if you hate it, your life is miserable and if you love your job, you feel fulfilled. It's nice to know that there are a few providers who really enjoy what they do and aren't just thinking of hobbyists as dollar signs. I'd never want to be with a provider who didn't like me or couldn't wait to get rid of me.

That ALL of the ladies do it for money, nothing more or less... I do. For the ladies that truly love to fuck (and many do) so be it. But I think one only has to ask for a freebie or worse, for credit and find out where she tells you to go. Those who rule the world of pussy, rule the world... it's elementary really... when you think too hard about it, you are fucked...in a manner of words. What guys have to stop doing is thinking they are somehow more special than the next; that the provider would really go for me in the civvy world etc. If you are single and this is the only pussy you get, just know that she's not going to quit unless she likes you and you can float lots to cash to cover her lifestyle. If you are married, just get some pussy and go home.

-- Modified on 10/13/2007 4:30:30 AM

Heather,

You are a class act who would be successful in any line of work!  Great insight and intelligence!  After reading your post, I'd  rather spend an evening enjoying dinner and conversation with you than partying!

Best to you!

If you really believe that a 30 something prefers to have sex with a 40 something "who can satisfy them and knows what he is doing", what makes you believe that a 20 something will react differently?

 In the heat of the moment (assuming the participants actually get heated up), a decade difference in the ages of either hardly matters. Another assumption here is that both parties are in sufficiently good shape to hold up their end stamina wise.

 Note I'm not claiming a position one way or the other, I'm just curious as to why you draw that particular age line.
-J

Because a very young girl is not very much attracted to older men. I am 30 myself and that's how I felt, when I was 10 years old younger my Dad was 40! I think that answers your question, however as I mentioned in the subject line that is just my opinion and I am sure there are 20 years old girls who find older men attractive but what percentage of them? well I would say less than %10

wow heather, that was really nice what you wrote, & so thoughtful. it's nice to know there are ladies & gents out there that are not that jaded. what you wrote really made me think. thanks for your thoughts.

It is also just as much about ENJOYING (or not) the WHOLE experience and interaction.

There are three categories of providers that fall into in this area of generalizations.

1) Those that truly enjoy what they do. They have many many repeat clients and have been around awhile (or will probably last longer).

2) Those that would rather be doing most anything else but are good or reasonable actors. Depending on their acting skills, some are as successful as category #1, but don't survive as well as.

3) Those that would rather be doing most anything else but cannot or choose not to employ “acting”.
They almost no repeat clients unless they offer some sort of special skills or attributes (usually exceptional beauty).

Certainly everyone has "off" days and some days are better than others, but how's that for broad generalizations?

BTW, the BEST of category #1 providers are also good actors when they are having off or bad days.

What many men do NOT understand is that the degree of success the woman has in making them "happy", often depends on how well the man presents or "acts" himself. Treat people how you want to be treated. I have sometimes "seemingly" seduced providers.

-- Modified on 10/13/2007 12:40:31 PM

It's never as simple as just "paying for a service" if you really want to enjoy the company of a good woman. No matter how much a lady "loves her job" she is going to be simply going through the motions to some degree if she determines that you are simply interested in renting her vagina for an hour.
There is nothing wrong with a little play acting on either side by the way. Two reasonably intelligent adults can enjoy each others company, do a little teasing and maybe even act a little silly all in the name of a good time. Last time I checked, nobody ever died from enjoying themselves and laughing a little during the process.

I couldn't have said it, and your response to lilli's response, better.

It's a sad part of human nature combined with modern society that men and women can so quickly forget the things that make us want to be with someone and start longing to be elsewhere or just get comfortable and not aim higher anymore.

It's why I'm still single 20 years after divorcing at 24, because it took me years to get past that and I won't be with someone who isn't past it, either...but I hope more than ever that I will find the right one for me.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find 100% of people in any given field who love their work. Even if one chooses to make their career from something they love, there will always be good days and bad days, and some days your job will simply suck! (no pun intended)

There are plenty of folks who currently work in fields they don't like because of the money; advertising, law, finance, etc... Why should this be any different? Hell, there are lesbian providers who don't even enjoy sex with men, but they still choose this as a job. Go figure!

I find it strange to see homosexuality grouped with homicide and child molestation.  Do you think that two people of the same gender cannot find true intimacy together?

Ah, that breaks my pea pickin' heart.
No, really. I met someone I would give it up for but he wasn't ready to settle down.
I can't stand civvies.
I got a lot of first timers who I dated and have had long lasting and satisfying relationships as well as a few disasters.
You don't know what feels good to us.
The dick can be very satisfying even with different body types. I just went to Long Island and I thought everyone was awesome and they showed me that all my formulas for which guys are not as fun was all wrong.
I think that all Long Island hobbyists are awesome and my formula is true for Fl. and Rockville, MD .

wish I could meet her!!!
I feel that the hobbyist is entitled love love m,e and leave me at will.
That is why I love this.
I think it is the most appropriate kind of relationship.

You would do well in almost any zip code and if you get lucky and find the right guy and he's got a good swerve and a little cash, settle down and make some babies... until then I hope you travel west and find out that Chicago gents would serve you justly. Next time, take a few snaps of the twins... It looks like somebody knew what they were doing... and I am a total tit guy... Best Wishes.

Excellent points. The real world does count and I have been less than enamored with ladies whose persuasion is more for the ladies than with men, but there are always exceptions. We are all extremely lucky when we can "connect" with another regardless of our persuasions and despite our preference for one or the other. I dated a lesbian in college, not because I was any different or better from other men she might have encountered, but I connected with her on many levels and the sex between us was very good too... Sadly, we had to keep this from her lover and when she'd spend nights with me after long study sessions, I'd get nasty looks when I would take her home. So if anyone tells you they love their jobs all the time as you so poignantly state, then they are lying to themselves and to anyone who counts on them for honesty.

Like you I went to a phone sex discussion board.

The fact that they were manipulating guys for money was of no surprise to me. What did you expect? It's not the most sensible way to get a substitute for sex.

Men can control their dicks. With extreme difficulty. Unfortunately, when they do, they are not called "real men."

The only harmful trends is child molesting (are we just alert to it and catching it more?), and of course spousal assaults, (I inferred that) homicides and suicides. IMO, though, a higher divorce rate probably prevents a lot of homicides/suicides. Homosexuality? You could control your sexual orientation far less than men can control their dicks, that's for sure.

I was so despondent after my last relationship failed that I didn't have sex for four years. So, men can control their dicks.

"I find it strange to see homosexuality grouped with homicide and child molestation.  Do you think that two people of the same gender cannot find true intimacy together?"


What is so strange about that to you?

If society weren't so sick, there would be a lot more healthy relationships.

And this might be a newsflash for you, but a homosexual "relationship" is a sick one.


Again, this is Political Correctness at it's finest, trying to push this through to the point where it's been accepted as "normal", and if you don't agree with it, YOU have the problem?

"Homophobia"

So let's see, if I don't agree with the notion that homosexuality is just a choice, then I am "afraid"?


Please...

Homosexuality isn't any more normal than adult-child sexuality (whatever the name for that is), or beastiality, etc.........


We can take whatever perverse sexual behaviors we want to engage in, and pretend that it's normal or we "were born that way", in order to justify it, but that doesn't make it so.

If you or anyone else would like to discuss this further, than create a separate topic...


My point was that the increase in homosexual activity, is a sign of how sick society has become.

Increase in divorce, and increase in homosexuality....


I personally know or have met, MANY folks who resorted to homosexual behaviors, because of the difficulties of trying to have/find a healthy relationship.

In the past, folk weren't afraid of working through difficulties....


nowadays, any time a person experiences ANY little discomfort, they're ready to throw their hands up in the air, throw a tantrum, and run away.


It's the SICK society we are in today.


Everyone wants total and immediate gratification.


When they can't find fulfillment with that attitude, they begin to deny reality, and seek out various means of escape.

"The only harmful trends is child molesting (are we just alert to it and catching it more?), and of course spousal assaults, (I inferred that) homicides and suicides. IMO, though, a higher divorce rate probably prevents a lot of homicides/suicides. Homosexuality? You could control your sexual orientation far less than men can control their dicks, that's for sure."


You draw some very peculiar conclusions, with the mindstate that you have.....


So we're just "more alert" to child molesting nowadays?

And why would that be again?


And you say there isn't an increase, but that we're just "catching it more"...

So basically, you're saying that it's pretty normal, for adults to be pursuing children for intimacy?



THEN you say, that a person cannot control their sexual "orientation"?

Tell me exactly, how do you KNOW this?



I'm also curious to hear your thoughts, if the adults that are attracted to, or pursuing intimacy with children, have a sexual "orientation" that they have "no control of"?




As for your point about divorce preventing a lot of homicides/suicides, it's interesting that you almost look at divorce as a good thing, versus identifying it as a problem, or a bad sign.





Hmmmm, so this is the mentality of a "white knight" huh?

Why am I not surprised...

That has recently made us see the magnitude of a problem that was always there. Whereas the internet might have incited some to child molesters, what it has mainly done is allow us to document, track, and sting these people.  

In my generation, no adults warned about priests. Cases of priests buggering boys were around for years. Definitely, at a Catholic school, many guys talked about it as a danger, and I saw some strange behavior from some priests and Catholic brothers. (Details upon request). I told you about the guy who married his student-- after her graduation, mind you. Today, nobody would have allowed a 25-year-old bachelor guys to student-teach in all-girl high schools (He wasn't the only one), and if there had been any attention paid to this, the least alertness about it, it would have never been done.

Yes, we were all told not to talk to strangers, there were "creepy guys" you were warned about-- by your mother, but the media didn't begin to report child abuse/molesting until the 80s. Then they began to identify those "creepy guys." Suddenly, there were a lot of them.

Spousal abuse wasn't brought to light until the late 70s-- I remember the first story I saw on "the problem" and it was being treated like: "Wow, we never knew this was happening so much"; it was on a late night news show called "Weekend."  

BTW, sexual harassment wasn't recognized till the late 70s as well, (first brought to light by Tom Snyder on "The Tomorrow Show" -- again treated as ground-breaking because a woman had actually complained about it). It was also about the same time as drunk driving suddenly became a crime. Before that, if you killed a family as a drunk driver, people would shrug it off and say, look, he was drunk!

All of this was just business as usual before thse days. Definitely this was all going on. Definitely, the press didn't think it important enough to do investigative stories about.

You have no idea how much reporting these problems has changed this society. Research it. What I say is true. There were no stories about any of it before then. It's not that things have gotten much worse in those regards, it's that a brief generation of post-Watergate reporters did stories that changed our society.

ON YOUR QUESTION ABOUT CHILD MOLESTING BEING NORMAL: I hope you're not confusing "normal" with "right." That would be an attempt to distort what I said. No, I don't think it's normal, and I'm defining normal to mean of every sex act that has been performed by humankind today, I'm certain that .01 percent or less have been perpetrated against children. Even that is far too much, and if you consider that there are billions of sex acts by humankind every day, and that there are a lot of days in the year, it's terrible.  

"THEN you say, that a person cannot control their sexual 'orientation'? Tell me exactly, how do you KNOW this?"

lol. Because just for the sake of experiment, I would have changed mine before now if I could have. Hell, I went through long periods without sex in my life, and it would have been very practical. There was no guilt stopping me. I'm a total atheist, so fear of God isn't an issue here. I absolutely can't change my sexual orientation. Not even toward bisexuality. For it to be sex for me, it has to involve a woman (I'm counting fantasies there). I will make a testimony: HETEROSEXUALITY IS INCURABLE. I have other compelling evidence, but that's the most convincing to me.

So, since I'm not attracted to children either, I do believe child molesters can't control their sexual thoughts toward children. Maybe it's like the bite rabies, and they were molested themselves, and are now "carriers" of child molesting. Now, on the actions that they take, as I said, I believe they can control themselves enough. They have to get some kind of preventive treatment and stop their impulses from being acted out.

AS FOR DIVORCES: IMO, one pattern in abuse is that there is actually too much commitment, if anything. The woman frequently returns to the guy who abuses her. But as often as that happens, the guy involved is extremely jealous of her.

For the children, what often isn't considered is fact that the parents' frustrations, sexual and otherwise, are often taken out on the children.  The trauma of seeing fighting day in and day out can definitely be worse than a divorce.      

For that and other reasons, I'd say that divorce is frequently the right thing.

Modern marriage, that is since the romantic era, is actually something extremely different than what marriage was before that time. Before then, it was an economic alliance between two families for the raising of children. Sometimes, couples would fall in love. Frequently, they didn't.

In other words, IT WAS A BUSINESS. The sanctity of marriage is a huge myth. Modern marriage was forged by the Romantics, and warped by the industrial revolution.

That is my considered opinion. Most of it offends a lot of people, including feminists.

BTW, I'm different from most White Knights: I'm a total atheist.  Remember all White Knights are different.


-- Modified on 10/15/2007 9:09:28 AM

I do basically agree with Zin on this one. I believe that people are hard wired a certain way. There has always been child abuse, homo sexuality, etc.

Speaking as a proud heterosexual myself, there is nothing that anyone could do to make a child, or another male attractive to me. Conversely, I don't believe that if a peson is attracted to children or people of the same sex that there is anything you can do change their inherent nature. The best you can hope for, in the matter of child molesters at least I don't care what consenting adults do BCD, is to prevent them  from acting on their urges. You can browbeat me all day long that lusting after pussy is bad, at the end of the day I'm still going to be lusting after pussy.

As far as what to do about it? Heres where our opinions diverge. We agree that you can't fundamentally change a person's "hard wiring" I believe the risk to society outweighs any "rights" a child molestor has. A true child molestor, not a nineteen year old who hooks up a seventeen year old, but a true fucking, perverted, baby raper should never be allowed to see the light of day. We are too "civilized' to just kill them, so we need to lock them up and throw the key away.

Counseling would involve getting them out of the public, or at the very least strictly watching their whereabouts. I wish there were a cure for it.

“Spousal abuse wasn't brought to light until the late 70s-- I remember the first story I saw on "the problem" and it was being treated like: "Wow, we never knew this was happening so much"; it was on a late night news show called "Weekend."  

BTW, sexual harassment wasn't recognized till the late 70s as well, (first brought to light by Tom Snyder on "The Tomorrow Show" -- again treated as ground-breaking because a woman had actually complained about it). It was also about the same time as drunk driving suddenly became a crime.

All of this was just business as usual before that. Definitely this was all going on. Definitely, the press didn't think it important enough to do investigative stories on it before.  

Research it. What I say is true. There were no stories about any of it before then. None of it was recognized till that time. It's not that things had gotten worse, it's that a brief generation of reporters finally noticed some things.  “


Ah yes, the brilliant media here to save the day!

Dude, we obviously have a TOTALLY different opinion and perspective on the media, and society.

I also see the media telling us that we are “homophobic”, if we don’t acknowledge homosexuality as normal.

I see the media telling us that we are “racist”, if we don’t want open borders.

The media and the “elites” go hand and hand, and LOVE to think of themselves as “more evolved”, and making society “more evolved”…..

Yet somehow, the divorce rate is just GLARING in the face of these bs notions.

Whether you want to look at “modern” marriage, or marriage of the past, it’s quite obvious that what is going on in today’s society is not healthy…..

But rather than me try to delve any further, to an atheist, I should just cut to the chase –


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

I agree with you on most things GA, but on this one, if you agree that certain people are "hard-wired" a certain way, then how can you pass judgment on them?

How can you call someone attracted to kids, any more or less perverted than someone attracted to their own gender?

You're ready to "lock them up and throw the key away", but what about the issues that we ALL have?

Some of us are murderers...    some of us steal.....
some of us lie and deceive..............

and remember, some of us are just better at hiding our issues!


Why does society look at prostitutes any worse than the women in our society that we commonly refer to as “gold diggers”?

Think about it…………


In reality, the prostitutes are a WHOLE lot less dishonest and deceiving and manipulative, then say the common “OC Housewife”.



My personal opinion, is that people are not “hardwired” at all.

Some folks get more and more out of control, IF THEY LET THEMSELVES.   With lust, it’s just like drugs, and if you keep going, you can/will get deeper, and deeper and deeper into lustful thoughts and acts.


It’s the same with violence.  Once folk start to lose a conscience, and/or allow their selves to become numb to it, they are capable of MUCH much more violence.

I agree about passing judgement on people, we can only "pass judgement" on how their behavior affects others. My point about hardwiring is, I don't believe you can change what or who another person is attracted to.

If a man is attracted to other men all the counseling in the world is not going to change that fact. I don't care about homosexuality, as far as I'm concerned, more pussy for the rest of us.

Pedophiles are a different story, children don't have the capacity to consent. IMHO the risk to society from a "rehabiltated" pedophile who "falls off the wagon" is just too great to risk.

Prostitutes, now that one's easy. There is absolutely nothing dishonest about prostitution plus I like prositutes, some of my best friends are prostitutes

I don't believe that fundamentally, that we really disagree. Maybe it's our definition of hardwiring. I don't believe that we can change who a person really is, we can however modify behavior. Most people are capable of repressing thier baser urges, some cannot. As long as their urges don't manifest themselves into criminal actions than it's a moral issue. When behavior harms other people especially the most vulnerable amongst us, something needs to be done as in the case of child molesting.

It's then a matter of protecting children. Again an analogy: a rabid dog can't help itself. That disease is also both incurable and diabolical. You don't shoot it because you hate it. You shoot it out of pity. "Pity for it and for the people around it."

How can I call child molesters worse than homosexuals? As far as I'm concerned, it centers on consent. The sex can't be consensual if one party, the child, isn't competent to consent to it. It's rape. If a homosexual engages in non-consensual sex (rape) I'd drop him in the clink.  

One last point on this subject: about whether they are responsible. Any social system depends on responsibility. They are definitely more responsible for their actions than society can ever be. So, if the rest of us are suffering grief from his actions, finally, he's most responsible, if not perfectly responsible.  

Now, you may ask further why a competing morality couldn't say rape is totally right. It can, but I'm a mortal enemy of it. It's a competing morality. And people do have competing moralities.  

People are hardwired to some extent, but never totally. If you put your hand on a stove, you are "hardwired" to draw back without thinking. Choice doesn't even enter into it. A theory, the deeper in the brain the behavior comes from, the more hardwired it is. The deep regions of the brain assert themselves over us. In my opinion, the further down in the brain the behavior comes from, the more it's hardwired. Things down in the mid-brain, like what sex you're attracted to are usually way down there.

There was an experiment, for instance, that suggested men are much more deeply hardwired for sexual orientation than women, so much so, the two sexes have completely different ideas of what sexual orientation is. More details available on request.

I don't believe the tendency to be attracted or rape children is as hardwired as sexual orientations. There's probably an effective "cure" for it, we just haven't found it.


-- Modified on 10/15/2007 3:43:35 PM

THE PRESS: No, I don't have respect for the press now, but what I say about it then is true. At that very brief point, for less than six years after Watergate, the press did some good very work. After that, it was corrupted; it was a nosedive. By 1983, it was awful.

Paul was an odd Apostle. A preacher who didn't preach anything the master said.  

Take away the aura his church awarded him and the  passage just a childish rant. Paul didn't take being told he was wrong well at all. No coincidence that he and his sect would lead western civilization right into a dark age.

More about the press: I don't think the news uses the term "homophobia," though it does describe violence against gays as "hate crimes." I also think the debate about how to controlling our borders without unleashing racism is an important one.

If anything, you're talking about quotations by liberals interviewed in a studio with conservatives there too. Conservatives say far worse. And it seems their terms about oppressing and suppressing homosexuality have not caught on.  Though silly ones have: and I say that as a boner fide moonbat.

-- Modified on 10/15/2007 11:22:10 PM

"Paul was an odd Apostle. A preacher who didn't preach anything the master said.  

Take away the aura his church awarded him and the  passage just a childish rant. Paul didn't take being told he was wrong well at all. No coincidence that he and his sect would lead western civilization right into a dark age."




I don't know where you got these notions, but I'd exhort you to actually read the Bible.

Paul went from someone whom persecuted and killed Jews, to someone whom preached Jesus's teachings.


This "western civilization" as you call it, was extremely brutal and oppressive, long before Paul, long before Jesus, and long before Abraham.

This "western CIVILIZATION" you tout...   you consider civilized?

Which empire do you desire to be a part of?

The Egyptian?

The Roman?

Maybe a part of Sodom and Gommorrah?




It's also particularly striking, that you write Paul's (which are actually GOD'S) teachings off as "childish rants"..........

Paul was persecuted CONTINUALLY, and eventually was crucified, for what he shared.

Yet you find yourself calling his work "childish rantings"???


Wow.

who?

I still say though, this is a slippery slope....


and I also think it's quite ironic, that we strive to protect our young ones (allegedly), yet we allow all these harmful messages and influences, and send all these mixed messages...


It's also ironic, that we hold our young ones responsible with their actions on so many things, yet folks want to restrict their responsibility in regards to sex.


Have you ever considered why that is?

I didn't become an atheist because I thought civilization would be better without religion. No, far from it. I became an atheist because I really don't see a God in this universe. I just don't. No matter what the Bible says, I have to be truthful. Faith without truthfulness is one times zero.

Paul is a charlatan, he says a lot about faith in Christ Crucified and resurrected, but he doesn't mention any of Christ's teachings, did you notice that? It was like he knew nothing about them. I actually think that was the case, BTW. They hadn't been concocted yet. I don't believe Jesus the man ever existed. There is no evidence coming from outside of Christianity, and not clumsily forged,   that collaborates that he ever existed.

I've never been impressed with Paul, and quite frankly, I wonder why Paul is considered so remarkable. I've never gotten anything out of his awful prose which is translated from illiterate Greek. That rant was just a rant-- almost on a schoolyard level. Paul hated discussion, had no patience with anyone who disagreed with him or approached things thoughtfully. Belief was all he tolerated. He reminds me of the Prophet Mohammad, and at least one of those two guys are wrong-- and likely both. It also means that one of them was not preaching because they were right.

I don't take Paul's suffering as a sign of anything more substantial than his beliefs. A lot of very bad people suffered greatly for their beliefs-- not least of which was Josef Stalin, who was imprisoned and exiled throughout his 20s and 30s. Suffering for one's beliefs is impressive. It shows conviction, but it doesn't show the beliefs are right or even humane.

So questions about what civilization I favor, or how brutal civilizations have been are moot, because prior to that argument, I've taken it as given that God doesn't exist. Whatever one says about civilization good or bad, I'm stuck with it.

Which culture would I rather be in?  Why this one.

Total oppression of sex. Sex being considered a matter of public interest (as it was during the puritans). Pre-arranged marriages. Divorce meaning exile from one's family and treated with widespread scorn. Oral sex a prosecutable offense. Prostitution or escorting a felony, as is adultery. Sexual discussions considered obscene.

I don't think it's more slippery toward the one side than it is toward the other.



-- Modified on 10/16/2007 12:17:48 PM

hehe



I see you didn't want to answer.



Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

I really have no idea how you arrived at the conclusions you did, but I'm not sure it would be fruitful for me to take the time to go "point-counter-point" with you.


You accuse Paul of being a "charlatan", but he did not preach to his own gain -  quite the contrary.

Not only that, but he continued to be persecuted in a way that no one else even comes close to.

Do you know the details of what Paul and the other Apostles went through?

All the while, Paul went through all of that, to bring the Gospel.

That's a big difference between someone whom is trying to be in control, like Stalin.

NO comparison there my brother.



As for your conclusion about his teachings not mentioning Jesus????

His whole message - The Gospel, which translated means "the good news", is about Jesus!!!


Romans chapter 1 -

1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.




I'd exhort you to take great care, in where you let your heart rest, and what you speak on.

If God chose Paul to deliver his Gospel to the gentiles (that means you), then ignoring him is ignoring God.

It is written -


1 Corinthians 14:37-38


" 37(BI)If anyone thinks he is a prophet or (BJ)spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment.

38But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. "



No judgment from ME though, just sharing what I have learned.

I'm not worthy to cast judgment on you, so don't take this that way.

Why the hell do you delegate personal responsibility for your judgment to the scriptures? Is humbleness supposed to be a virtue, here?

I DIDN'T SAY PAUL'S TEACHINGS DON'T MENTION JESUS. Now that's would be a rank absurdity. Read again: I said Paul never mentions any of JESUS' TEACHINGS. None. Try to find one thing Jesus is purported to have said in Paul's epistles. Just an indirect quote. Just one. There aren't any.  

It's very simple how I arrived my atheist conclusion: I see NO EVIDENCE of a supreme being in this universe. None. Really, that's all there is to it. You need look no further.  

Every bit of evidence people give is hearsay-- which includes the entire Bible. To "have faith" to say there is a God when I don't see one is simply lying. Period. Do you think the Christian God would welcome that? There is nothing you yourself can do the change that one fact. There is not a quote from your favorite novel you can make. None of it will change that fact.

About ignoring God. Don't try to scare me. Believers less restrained than you might hurt me in God's behalf, but a fictional character like God-- can't.

You don't find me doubting the existence of the sun, do you? A God would not be ignorable. (I know, then I must be pretending to ignore him.)  Now, to make a comparison: is the sun really something you have to read a book too experience? (I know, I must be advocating sun worship.) No, what I'm saying is, which do you perceive concretely, where you can't deny it even to yourself? And if you say it's God, I have to call you a liar. There is no way.

Now, what kind of person has the existential problem God has: that he has to insist, bully people, into saying that he's there? Why does an all-powerful, ever-present God even need people to preach, priests or bishops or apostles to write down his message in books for him? Isn't it better to take directly into our minds? (I know, your puny arrogant mind cannot understand something so stupendous as a God). Yes, you're right but I can understand other humans, and I could see that God in the Bible is only a human work, a character, and the Bible and the whole God myth is something that was created by men.

I know what the myths say about the apostles. I think all of them are myths. I don't believe Jesus or any of the 12 apostles existed. I think Christianity was built on lies from the very beginning-- by people who had a lot to gain, and then changed the stories to cover their tracks. I think if Saul/Paul did exist, (a lot more believable than Jesus or the other 12 existing) anything he wrote has been highly altered from the original work.

Early Christianity was built on fraud and forgery.

Now it's simplified, and not booby trapped with any of those smart tricks.  

The slippery slope statement wasn't posed to me, so it wasn't a question being answered-- and I volunteered it when no answer was called for.

All I did was share with you my knowledge of the Bible.


As for Paul not sharing Jesus's teachings...  how about "love your enemy"?  How about loving your fellow man??

That right there, shows your complete lack of knowledge of the Bible, and for you to cast your own personal judgments without even knowing what you are judging, is truly sad.



Then you jump to the paranoid conclusion that I'm trying to "scare you"?

No my brother, just sharing my knowledge of the Bible, that tells us that we WILL be judged.

If you dont' want to be scared, then don't.

That is YOUR choice, and if God Himself allows you/us to make this free-will choice, then who the heck am I to stand in your way?



Let me say this, you or I can fool each other, or other people...    the one person who can NOT be fooled?  Is God.  

He KNOWS our hearts.

So I could sit here and go back and forth with you, and debate points like "tit for tat", but that's not my duty.  Matthew 10:12-14



In response to the rest of your comments, like comparing Paul to Joseph Stalin, or witnessing life and the universe and not thinking there is any God?

I'll simply share what is written:

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”




If you have any sincere questions about the Gospel, I'll willingly respond.

summed it up perfectly Swim!

Heather is a great person.