Below, we were discussing the emotions when a woman (or a man) rejects a paramour (irregardless of the sexual persuasion of the pursuer).  If we were to go on the odds game alone, I would be very comfortable approaching women on the street to obtain a "date and sequel" for the evening.  Statistics show that there is a number of approaches to be made to get one "green light."  So why not take this approach? It would be cheaper and it would also be a bit more interesting.  

Well, it would take a lot of time... but more importantly, it would carry some risk of being completely rejected.  Many of us hobby knowing that we will not be rejected (even if we are green!).  In some ways that is a big part of the experience, being accepted, even if it is for an hour or two, it is a safe environment without confusing issues.  It is protective of the ego and in my case it saves my damaged ego from further wear and tear.  

I know that you are not to take rejection personal - but quite simply put - it is personal - you are being rejected on the basis of your physical attributes most of the time, how much more personal can ya get?!

I have rejected my fair share of ladies, and I have been rejected as well.  In all instances, if you really look at the person, you will see the pain and hurt.  I know.  I have kids, and while I tell them that when they date, they will experience great joy, but also great hurt.  AS we get older, the hurts are less, but so are the joys....

So I hobby, no hurt, but I also know that in the hobby, the greater joys are also absent.  but this is what I do right now to avoid hurt.

Sorry, this is not funny, but it is honestly how I feel.  It does not detract from the great experience that I have with some of the providers.  In fact the better providers for the time that I am with them permit me to relax and forget the hurts caused by others - and the time I spend with them IS personal - it is about as personal as it can get!  lol.  

The question that would be if asking for a date were "non-personal" is: "if it is not personal, what is it? business?"  Heck, even in business, when a partner acts dishonestly - or unethically - it is personal - it affects you, your family, your reputation - it is highly personal.

I hope that this clarifies my feeling on this... and as I said before - the providers that I have known are mostly top of the line people.

Your feelings are not odd at all. It has always been the understanding of the mature in this hobby.. Many, many, many, do this for no strings attached. No hurt, etc and so on. Keep on being you. I Am sure you are a very great person to get to know.

-- Modified on 12/5/2005 7:10:40 PM

-- Modified on 12/5/2005 9:17:43 PM

-- Modified on 12/5/2005 9:17:02 PM

One of the more encouraging things I've found from being in the hobby is this: rejection by a woman for a date or sex is usually neither personal nor complete.    

However, I have to put a disclaimer on that.  In a sense, it is very personal, because a guy's sexuality is very personal.  She refuses you about that, and it may feel like she had just tortured and executed you.  Actually, she doesn't want you to drop dead, she may really like you, but not as a sex partner, and, no, not even once. Moreover, many times the fact that she has to be absolute and unambiguous about that makes the rejection sound a lot more encompassing of everything about you than it is.      

It's a strange experience to find that women who wouldn't consider me for sex otherwise will change their mind with material reward.  Unlike most other men, however, I think the attitude is quite sincere.  The reluctance that she had is gone and doesn't need to be removed by love, sweeping her off her feet, or whatever.  

She is like any female in nature.  When approached for sex, she usually thinks "what am I getting out of it?"  Dating, marriage and love aren't so direct with material award and she may not be thinking that in the same sense, but believe me, somewhere within her in some different way, the same calculation is made.  

I'm not being misogynistic.  Men have the same calculation with sex and mating, except the terms are different because in nature it's almost always much better for a male have sex with many partners as possible.      

So I hobby, no hurt, but I also know that in the hobby, the greater joys are also absent.  but this is what I do right now to avoid hurt.

...than the whiny post I made a few days ago that prompted it.

I gotta stop drinking and posting. It's obviously affecting a lot of people.

Everyone's truth is there own!!!

Perhaps everyone who has responded, so far, is simply speaking THEIR own truth...I happen to believe, even as a provider, I will be the same kind of woman I am with my hobbyist friends (of course with proper screeing and safety)as I will someday with one significant man in my life......so perhaps I am hurting myself, due to the fact I defiantely cannot see myself having a significant other while I still financially need to be as good a provider as I can!!
It's funny what was said about rejection, and someone allowing intimacy all of a sudden if $$ is involved...in my private life, that is basically the way I'm approached anyway-for physical attriubtes, and possible intimacy...yet there is such a stigma when I make a living through it.
So, what was my point you ask by now? We are all different, and our "truths" about these encounters uniquely different!!

the nature of the universe and the time continum paradox.... wow.!!!  Rarely when reading this board do I laugh that hard...

Seriously, what prompted the post, was the question of why do I hobby?! that simple. and in looking through all of my posts and the reviews that I have written, as well as the fact that I seem to run from civie relations right now... I seem to be in a - hey, how can I have relations with a woman - and not take emotional risks... mode...  That is all, and right now I am wondering will I snap out of this, or is this my destiny....  

Sooooo grasshopper, I am content in my knowledge...  and tomorrow - my solution to Iraq!  night.

I think you have a "yes" response to a sexual proposition for either a primal need, an emotional need, or a material need, out there in the real world.

The urban female is more likely than the rural female to make a choice based on material calculations of the potential mate, because it is more expensive to provide comfortably for oneself in the urban environment. Beyond comfort, I believe that the urge to have a comfortable lifestyle is biologically representative of the human female's urge to feather a good nest for potential offspring.

An emotional need of course is driven for a variety of reasons, some of which would include feelings of self-doubt, loneliness, recent painful loss, etc. The human animal often seeks comfort in closeness with others in times of emotional pain. Sex is one way to do that. Additionally, emotional need will cause the continuance of a relationship, possibly exclusively or additionally sexually, if the two parties bring pleasure to each other in an emotional capacity, even without a pain-based original motivator.

Primal need, that which in my experience will hands down result in the hottest physical couplings, comes straight from the latent (or not so latent) animal nature that is within us all. This would be pheremonally driven and or menstrual cycle driven. Couplings that you see occuring that you have absolutely no explanation for, if  you know both of the parties and the other two needs I've suggested are clearly not represented would fall into this last category.

Of course, when you combine two or three of these needs, the outcome will be nothing short of remarkable.



-- Modified on 12/5/2005 9:22:49 PM

-- Modified on 12/6/2005 12:38:33 AM

-- Modified on 12/6/2005 12:38:57 AM

When married I was "king of the castle"  then I lost my job... for 2 1/2 years... not that I did not try to get another job... but the market for what I do was bad... and I was geographically in the wrong place at the wrong time....

This led to some serious problems in our marriage - and it took 2-3 years for them to fully develop... but essentially what we were left with was a spouse who tended to find fault with everything that I did - no matter how good or bad... Imagine if everyday - someone told you how bad your performance was in EVERYTHING that you do....  That was my life... stayed for the kids.  The one area that she could not criticise was in the bedroom - because I avoided sex...  who would want to have sex - only to have the performance criticized?  I gave celibacy a new standard!  

She cheats on me and then divorces me!  

So for me, rejection is personal.  Maybe it is a holdover from my failed marriage.  Maybe I have taken it that way from the beginnig.  But the hurt is there.  Ever talk with someone who really really loved someone ?  

A divorcee who lives in my area came on to me...   she is very attractive and I found her charming.... however, one weekend our kids had a playdate... and her ex husband had the kids at his place... so he and I spent a couple of minutes together exchanging kids....   long story short, the guy was crying because his wife left him... after that I could never see her the same way again...  he was truly hurt... and I am not going to add to the grief of another!  People do take rejection personally - whether they are a gent or a lady, gay or straight.  it is just human...

I do agree with you that women tend to, on the whole, assess the man for his ability to provide!  hee hee, whether it be providing for 1 hour - or for 50 yrs... hee hee.....

Men - well, as we saw below - often think with their little head... but it too has feelings!

confused? you won't be after seeing some of the providers that I have had the pleasure of meeting.... the fantasy that they have provided!  wonderful...  Thanks.  

Still believe that all three can be simulated in the provider:hobbiest relationship - AS LONG as one knows the game - where there is confusion is when the line of gameplaying is blurred...  

We all need human (physical) contact - without it, we warp...  that is not good.  We also all need those we can talk and communicate with.  Right now, in my life, those are contained in two very separate compartments...  they may come together again, but for now, things are pretty much geared to being risk (and therefore pain) free.  

Thanks for an interesting perspective.

Based upon the other things I suggested.

It seemed the obvious question.  

a poor only child.

bored to death!  I found that I could do a lot of things that I did not know I could do....  

The time did leave me with a positive perspective and some insight with respect to my own behavior....  And I can cook eggs about a billion ways.

That will tell you something right there.  That sounds like an extremely harsh experience, BTW.  Not as harsh as I've witnessed however... nor was it the most vindictive end to a long-term relationship possible...

As I said, the word "personal" as I used it was ambiguous.  However, I wasn't writing about an existing, bonded relationship.  That falling apart is going to feel much worse and be much more protracted.  I'm talking about approaching a woman for a date or a tryst.  No bond is made yet, though presumably, there is usually an acquaintance.  

You do have the same regard for the great trysters in this business that I do.  It sure makes it hard to contemplate real dating again.

Though it would really blow my mind more to find out my married sister is on this board.  

I'm sure we could swap war stories! I feel ya.

A man has to appeal to one of those to get a woman's attraction to him.  I guess what guys don't understand many times is this: material resources create an attraction in women as legitimate and honest as the other two.  

I guess the last one might be a total crap-shoot though.  There is, of course, the woman who is just really hot-blooded.  I back away from the term nymphomaniac here, some women seem to go through that stage and work it out of them.  Every guy knows of at least one woman who f*cked nearly everybody... or (if you're like me) everybody but him.

I've written before that I think such women make extremely good PSE trysters, having put themselves though an apprenticeship of sorts... if they don't self-destruct.  

I see everything through a biological lens.  All the needs you mention converge on how women and men are emotionally designed to reproduce or gain resources for offspring and how men have a need to sate their desire to reproduce... or in the environment we live in now, make their bodies feel like they are.    

The role that shift mistresses perform now for the man is *not* reproductive.  What you and your sisters in the craft do now is give sexual pleasure sans reproduction.  You sate the excess sex drive of men which would otherwise be extremely destructive in this environment.  Though you work on an urge that's reproductive, you're no more concerned with your client's reproductive success than a gourmet chef is concerned about his customers' starvation.  

I would compare you and your sisters in the craft to gourmet chefs, except you're a lot more vital and a lot less gratuitous.  Basically, the only way a man could have the reproductive success of Genghis Khan would be to act like Genghis Khan, and right now, that would probably inflict extinction on our species, if not on the rest of the earth.    


-- Modified on 12/6/2005 1:13:13 AM

I, for one, can see a lady's change to desire for $$ as a tension falling away in her mind than an act that she puts on.  Ordinarily, at least among independence, she doesn't have intimacy with anybody she knows she doesn't like: she screens them.  

About truths being each our own: we live in one universe, but many worlds.  What we call "the real world" is a compromise of all of them.

The "hot-blooded" woman is either very in tune with her primal needs, sleeping around to find the man who will foil whatever birth control method she is using because she has a deep biological urge to reproduce, possibly unbeknownst to her; OR she is deeply emotionally troubled and seeking to fulfill her emotional needs. OR even both together.

Like the chef comparision, and the extinction thought.

WOW! That was a lot of words...made me head hurt!

You seem to want to date and you are also looking for a sure thing that doesn't provide what you find in dating........Why would you not do both.

If you hobby on the side then you won't think anything about getting shot down when you chat a girl up. In all honesty if you took that same $$$$ dollars and wined and dined a normal girl you might get more out of her than if you were just to by her a drink.

Nothing in life comes with out pain......Pain to the check book or pain to the heart......it all adds the same.

You really should mix the 2. One never knows where they will find love and you just need to not become so jaded as to start putting it into categories.

We all seek to avoid hurt......but, hurt only comes after love..........so if your path is to someday find love then you need to re-think the issues that you have with pain. Perhaps, if you dealt with it more it wouldn't be such a scary place to be.

Just my thoughts at this way too late hour.LOL
X's Summer

It seems to have so much meaning. The funny part about meaning is that we rarely get it right. How many of those nos were about something completly different than you thought?

I guess we will never know.

For me no has just as many meanings as anyother guy. I guess when I think about it though, how much energy I have wasted making it mean things that it doesnt.

So hobby or don't, but remember, no may not be a rejection of you. It might just be a rejection of the request.

clearly, we all bring a perspective to this question....  it is worthy of consideration because I think in the end thoughtful consideration will provide for a better hobbying experience both for hobbiests and providers...  

That is, we all know that we are setting up an illusion.  But as with all plans, when do we go to plan "B" and what might be the driving forces to go to plan "B"?  In my instance, I think that if I find myself drifting from a hobbiest mentality with one or more of the providers then I will need to reexamine why I hobby...   some instances of a need for a plan "B":
Emotional attachment to a provider that is more than just a casual business-type friendship....(Actually those can be pretty good I have had some of those that go on for decades)
Emotion issues with a provider - not categorized as love - but more as an obsession!  (hey - happens - has not happened to me- but I recognize that it can happen...)
I develop a civie relationship where my hobbying would hurt that persons feelings or harm that relationship...
I would recognize that something in my outlook with respect to men/women relationships is becoming pathologic. (not sure how I can gauge that - maybe in sessions I look for providers who have are licensed clinical psychologists - and I do know some of those!)

so Zin and CiaraAz  thanks.... for the serious thoughts...


-- Modified on 12/6/2005 6:48:14 AM

But that is a totally different post....  The other day I was in the grocery store when this cutie comes up to me and flashes a 90-watt grin and says "hi there"  to which I promptly respond by saying "wqhrpohqh214182y581"  she smiles and demurely walks on.... later with my daughter at my side I see her again - and it is my daughter who says "hi"  and they lady reponds --- immediately my daughter is brought in for questioning - who is that!  a teacher at her school.... next thing I know I am in a parent teacher conference at my daughter's school - and this same teacher walks in to get something from a cabinet "way up high"  she contorts her bod... and quite the bod it is.... so I can clearly see the outline of her underwear.....  ohhhhh..... what to do!  oh to be able to have the gift of gab and to be able to say something other than my trademark phrase "qwoirhqowgt3t301095u"  ahhh.!!  so yea... with no sisters or brothers... well can I think of all of you as  my extended family?!   hee hee!

numerous entertainers as govenors & congressmen (witness Jessie Ventura - Arnold and others)  witness the "Great Communicator" himself... Ronald Reagun....  yea - it will be hard...  

I have to say, that it will be difficult for them to match my ATF with respect to male/female interaction and just plain old "Getting it right"!!!

Could go into significant detail but let's recap a couple of financials for you just so you understand the landscape in Bizarro world...
I have a gal that I have been seeing for about 18 months or so... she has her share of problems... but I have taken her to her favorite places...  and dropped over $400 one night for dinner - a quite famous restaurant that we both like... I have also been on call to give her a ride home from work as she needs...  and other such things...  She is neither dependable nor has she offered me anything more than friendship -

Now lets go to my ATF - who prepared a dinner for me on my birthday... who when I have taken her to dinner suggests that we go local and relatively low cost.  and who actually calls on occasion to see how I am doing.!

Now lets move to a provider that I saw for the first time...  We had a great session - and just liked each other - I asked her out to dinner - actually she had dropped hints... and we went out to dinner and had a great time - cost - about $60!  Am I cheap? no, took people where they wanted to go!  and with my ATF - I always pay for more than she asks - because I get so much more from her!

So sorry - my life - like so many others.... is more complicated than can be expressed in a quick posting...  and with respect to finding love -?  hee hee - I thought that I did.  Clearly that was not the case - even though my ex says that she still "loves me" but not in a romantic way...  Being green is hard.

There is no reason why you can't do both.

Enjoy the safety of the hobbying. But, get out there and wear your heart on your sleeve every once in a while. Only then will you find the Nirvana that you seek deep down. Yes, you will get hurt from time to time.......but, hey we are here to pick you up and make you feel good about yourself again.

If you choose to close yourself off from the possible pain you also choose to close yourself off from the possible joy. Life is about living......try it every now and again because you are sounding like you're hurting by not doing so at this moment.

X's Summer