First and foremost, I am the daughter of a mega-feminist; and yes, I do have those roots as well. So, I'm hoping that this doesn't seem like I'm a suck up to men forgoing my inherent woman rights.
I have always said that a philosopher's greatest question is, "what is this life? this being? what is the ultimate truth." However, his second biggest question is, "what do women want?"
Men are constantly trying to figure us out, and we are constantly nagging them to understand us.
However, in my very rewarding summer job, I have learned many priceless insights that have both captivated and enlightened me, for I have been learning WHAT MEN WANT.
I'm not a submissive-man-pleasing girl; however, women really do not take the initiative to learn what men need and desire whether mentally or physically.
We have a ridiculous amount of power. We know it. But we never admit it...and we sometimes abuse it. Well, I don't think that it's fair.
I am completely AWED by the amount of attention you guys pay to us. You never overlook a single positive detail in your reviews.  It's just amazing that you love us so completely and really notice everything we do for you...you don't require much at all. You are so easy to please. Why do we nag the hell out of you?
Women, I think, do not pay as much attention to men as men pay attention to women. But we bitch that it's the opposite.
I waited tables for years to unhappy families. The whole meal would pass without a single utterence between the two "lovebirds."
I'm truly saddened by this.
It's crucial to formulate a wholesome, nurturing relationship through a healthy balance of insight to each other's desires. Both companionship and sex are extremely important in a relationship; women need to be just as eager and motivitated to understanding men as men are for women. That's whats lacking. Women aren't necessarily changing, they're just not paying attention.
I never would have known some things about you guys if I never would have started providing this summer. I have a bird's eye view...it's awesome. I'm learning what I might never have learned, and also, I will be englighted for my (very distant) future relationship.
I'm just rambling now...

... the experience of being providers and hobbyists.  I think this is a good way for Venus and Mars to come closer together.

I found it to be a cogent and elightened perspective; so much lacking in your civie counterparts who have no skin in the game whatsoever and want it ALL. Sad actually.

Women do have a lot of power and, with our current legal system, they often have still more.
I've had some men tell me that it is legal suicide today to get married because it's so easy for a woman to leave and just clean a man out of so much that he's worked his whole life for.

There are men who are jerks who take advantage of women and there are women who take advantage of men. I'm not excusing either one. But it does seem nowadays that women have a legal recourse to punish men who wrong them yet men have no such recourse. Most of the time when domestic disputes come to court, the court backs up the woman who is perceived as the victim.

Almost all men of a certain age range have sexual energy they must release one way or another. If they can't find it through a loving spouse or girlfriend, they will turn to porn or strip clubs or providers. Women know this and, yet, if they see their man turn to one of these other avenues because she wouldn't put out or she becomes so unfit that the guy is no longer interested in her, she sees this as betrayal and the next step is usually a trip to the courthouse where the man loses - his money, his house, his relationship w/his kids, possibly his job, possibly his reputation.

What does a woman lose in divorce? Usually only the man - unless she's such a horrific mother that he winds up with custody of the children. Other than the emotional scars, she suffers nothing. This explains why women file for 80% of the divorces. They know they can devastate the man and depart almost unscathed.

I think women were more motivated to please a husband and stay married to him when divorce was  socially stigmatized and when women did not get the benefits from it that they do today.

And who led the change? Feminists. But they has a lot of help from male judges and male politicians or they could have never affected the changes on their own.

Now, I would never recommend a woman to stay in an abusive relationship - particularly physical abuse - so some divorce is justifiable. Likewise, men should have no license to cheat on their spouse for some of the reasons men often use to rationalize it. If you marry a woman you're basically agreeing to support her the rest of your life and that commitment should be taken seriously.

But I find many women today lack the motivation to work out a marriage or to honor and respect the men they are with. They know if the marriage doesn't work out they can walk out of it with little damage to themselves.

I'm not arguing for a return to the 1950s or to lock women into the kitchen or any of the nonsense often spouted in these sort of discussions. I'm just arguing that, until the legal playing field is balanced, this situation is only going to get worse with more and more men choosing to stay single and more and more children being raised without fathers.

That's not good for our society as a whole. Studies have shown over and over again that children develop better with both a mother figure and a father figure. The government, no matter how well-intentioned, does not make for a good daddy.

-- Modified on 8/23/2006 8:21:19 PM

I've known several husbands who paid whatever price they had to to walk away after the kids were out of the house.  The wives were "shocked" and had no idea it was coming.

We're living in a time now in the USA when it is fashionable to ignore men's needs.  Nice to read that you're paying attention, siobhan06.  It's good to know others are too.

In my unhappy experience . . .

A: MORE!!

B: Not me

C: They don't even know

P.S.

Siobhan, spend some time in Florida, and come visit me. I've admired you from afar, mind, spirit and body. That's supposed to sound playfully flirtatious. Why does it sound sorta creepy?

and lack of a challenge.  On the other hand, it they really knew what I wanted, I would die in the saddle, but very happily.

provoke me to wonder:  Maybe it's not divorce that needs to be justified; may it's marriage that needs to justify itself now.

Some guy is going to be really lucky to have you in his life on a daily basis. Wow  

Siobhan, Thanks for your thoughtful and incisive post. I'm very pleased you responded to the thread I started a few days ago.

Your statement that "women really do not take the initiative to learn what men need and desire whether mentally or physically" sure seems to apply to my wife!  

But does it really apply to women generally?  
(I'm asking that question only because I really don't know.}  

The covers of Cosmopolitan (a very popular magazine for young women) that I see in the supermarket checkout line all show, every month, titles such as "How to Please Your Man" or "What Do Men Want?".  So young women would seem to be quite oriented towards this task.  Or, do you think this just read such stuff but don't really act on it?

I trust your understanding of men and empathy for them is getting you a lot of well-deserved professional attention in Nashville.  I checked out your website.  What a great occupation to accompany getting your Ph.D!

However, maybe you ought to disguise your photos a bit, so your Southern university won't give you any trouble?

Thanks again, and take care.

I have to recognize the obvious and realize that I’m a guy and what guy would not like reading Siobhan’s heart warming perspective?  For sure there is an abundance of truth in her observations.  Yes indeed there are plenty of good men out there who do really want to know what women want and if given the chance will try to give those things to the one he happens to be with.  Likewise, as Siobhan herself epitomizes, there are wonderful women out there who appreciate such efforts and in turn seek to learn what their men want.

One of the factors that make threads, such as the earlier ones that led to Siobhan’s post, mind-boggling is that they tend to highlight extreme ends of the flawed relationships spectrum.  The dirt-bag guy who seemingly has zippo respect for his SO.  Yup, he exists but is that situation the most well-balanced description of a typical guy in flawed SO relationship?  I think not.  Likewise we mostly read about the selfish, sexless, bitchy woman who seems to thrive on making her SO’s life miserable.  Yeah, she’s out there also but I too do not think she is representative of the most common woman who finds herself in a flawed relationship.  There is a huge middle ground that all too often seems to garner the least amount of attention in these topics.  Fortunately some posters do describe themselves in this arena.  They care deeply for their SO, they cherish their friendship and their family life and at the end of the day they, like most of us, would love a more prefect relationship where everything (e.g.  sex) is in near perfect harmony and balance.  

But alas something is missing and they try to fill the gaps the best they can.  For some perhaps the situation will be remedied over time as the partners learn to focus on each others needs.  Some will flounder in this state and perhaps the relationship will fail altogether.  And I suppose some will hold on dearly to the good that is in the relationship and use outside companionship to supplement whatever is missing.    

So after the start of a relationship, have women changed?  Have men changed?  Yes and yes.  Change is one of the absolute constants in life.  Unfortunately change is not synonymous with improvement.  Nor is it synonymous with degradation. We would all be wise to take notice of a couple of Siobhan’s remarks.  Good relationships need a ‘healthy balance of insight to each others desires’ and we need to be ‘motivated to understanding’ each other as men and women.   The constructs of these threads seem to categorize people in flawed relationships as: ‘bad guy/bad SO partner’, ‘bad woman/bad SO partner’, ‘good guy/bad SO partner’ and ‘good woman/bad SO partner’.

Siobhan’s post reminds me that there is a very good possibility that flawed relationships often involve ‘good people who want to be good SO partners but lost their balance and their motivation’ along the way.      

Priceless!!!! Brought a lump to my throat and a tear to my eye.  Some guy will be lucky to give his soul to such a treasure.

Siobhan,

Very astute and honest observation you have made.  I hope you keep that perspective throughout your years.

Talltexanboy, very accurate on how things have changed in the world (at least in U.S., Canada and Australia) and I have seen much of it myself, but I think you just skimmed the reason why.  From my experience, and of those of others I talked to and by my observations (including overhearing conversations in crowed bars) is because of the power and current legal statutes, once a woman has (marries) a man, she has him by the short hairs and know it .  Many don't feel they have to do and act the same way as they did to attract him.  Many (not all) don't believe in mutual respect.  These women seem to believe they are intitiled to things but not have the responsibility.  It is an attitude that many women seem to share.  This is starting to backfire on some women now as some men are refusing to marry because they think it is too risky and not in thier best interest (http://www.wendymcelroy.com/ifeminists/2003/0812.html).  That is my 25 cents worth.

What's that I always hear: Men enter a marriage hoping the woman will never change; women enter a marriage hoping they can change the man. Men want to be respected, women want to be heard. Both sides end up bottling all their feelings and convince themselves that the other will never understand.
So many women have a laundry list of demands when it comes to picking an SO but then we say that the man should respect us for who we are and we shouldn't have to change a thing! I won't simplify things and say that men are easy to please, but most men will tell you in two seconds what they need if you just listen.
It has been my experience, at least, that even if a woman's appearance begins to degrade during a relationship, the man still loves her desperately; he just wants her to take care of herself. The problem then becomes that many women will then take any comment the man might make to be an attack...it all just turns into a giant mess.
Siobhan, I think you have it right. Women aren't always the problem but we do tend to make things far more complicated than they are. Relationships take work, but we have to be willing to listen, not take everything as an attack, and also realize that men are men and therefore have different motivations in life, sex is not the same thing as love, what seems important now is probably not going to mean shit in a month, and forgiveness is not a switch- it takes huge amounts of time and effort. Things might be a little easier for everybody.