and we are attempting a relationship.....

Should I just kill myself now or wait for my life to be completley ruined...?

BTW, Im married and have no idea how this all happened.

someone's going to get hurt: you, the provider or your wife or all of you. Good luck.

You're already in deep so just enjoy your emotions now, they're the only things that are truly yours anyway.  Some people never feel anything in their lives - enjoy it.  Nothing lasts forever anyway.

and it won't cost as much.

Do this for at least a year.  Then you'll know.

Oh come on, you know exactly how it happened. You took the time to decide to try a relationship with her. I'm sure it's great now, but in the long run, it will probably end up being very painfull emotionally for all parties involved. Good luck.

The road ahead WILL be bumpy indeed. Especially due to the fact that You are married. Should your wife find out about the relationship AND that she is a provider you'll need Kevlar skivvies for sure.(hiding all your assets would be smart too)
 Otherwise I say ignore the nay-sayers and follow your heart. As long as your "provider" is ernest in her feelings toward you than seek to enjoy what so many of us are looking for  "LOVE"

 In good concience I don't support the "Cheating" aspect of your situation and you should make a decision on who to give your FULL attention to, then whittle it down to ONE woman.
I do however wish you... Good Luck

  YKSY

C'mon Ladies what's wrong with us single clients. Not enough challenge??, Drama??.  Maybe I should post this as a question to the "Board"

-- Modified on 4/18/2003 8:36:29 PM

My poor friend.  I’ve been in a situation similar to yours.  It’s a dark and frightening place.  You feel like you’re being pulled in half.  You’re certain you’re going to go out of your mind.  But, in your heart, you know what to do.  

I know nothing about your situation, but in mine, I knew that if I went with the other woman, my wife – the one person completely innocent in the matter – would be the one who would be hurt.  I took a good look at what I was doing.  I asked myself if what I felt for this other woman was love, or just lust, danger, and excitement.  I then did what I knew was right all along; I ended my affair.

That was in December of 1989.  My wife (who knew everything) never once threw the matter up at me.  She recognized that she was not without fault, and together, we rebuilt our life.  My wife began taking better care of herself, and I began being more attentive.  As a result, our sex life exploded; we became best friends; and we had a positively idyllic life together.  I never once regretted my decision, and I never looked back.

Good luck.

The first and most common is that she is not really in love with him, but is telling him that she is so that she can keep him as a regular.  In other words, for the income.  A married guy probably won't leave his wife for her, so she is not in danger of having to follow through.

The second and less common is that she doesn't really want to be happy because deep down she doesn't think she is worthy of being happy.  Falling for a guy she can't have is part of an endlessly repeating pattern that will only end when she decides that she is worthy of happiness.

Best wishes and be careful

...trying to have relationships with more than one woman at a time.  The "relationship with Providers" issue has anecdotal evidence to support both the "don't" and "why not?" positions, but there's nothing healthy about starting a new relationship when the old one still has a hold on you.  You're not skating near the edge, you've already slipped over it.  You just haven't hit the bottom yet.

I did the same thing as you once, but I knew what I was doing.  I suspect you did too, unless you're really adept at self-deception.  I also knew it was a mistake, but did it anyway.  Who's the bigger fool?

Anyway, might as well bend over and start applying the K-Y, because you're fucked.  Sorry, but it's true.  Good luck.  Hope you don't suffer too badly.

...to be warm, friendly, sexually available and to make you feel you're the most special guy in the world. If she's a good provider she will have made you feel great.  Which doesn't mean to say a relationship with her is worth risking your marriage for.  Would you be able to cope with the knowledge of her past in the long term?  Would you want her to give up now and if so how would she support herself or would you have to be prepared to support her?

There's a lot to take into consideration and if you've only seen this woman for provider sessions it's not 'real life' you will be basing your judgement on.

Relationships between providers and clients can and do work and I wish you luck which ever path you choose.

...and the first thing is, "Don't Panic!"  There's nothing wrong with the situation you are in as long as you keep your feet on the ground.  What you actually have is an ideal situation, and I'd like to gently explain how to gain a good perspective.  As long as you (and your mistress) keep that perspective, you'll do just fine.

Second, all standard disclaimers apply, as I'm sure there are going to be those that disagree with me.  Fire away, whatever, this is just my opinion from my experience in situations like this.

I think what you have is an ideal opportunity to have a great marriage and a great mistress, a situation that a hell of a lot of men out there would love to have, if you can afford it.  On this point, seriously calculate what you have been spending on the hobby for the year; not just on fees, but for all the peripherals, too.  The first thing you have to STOP believing (sorry, papercup) is that you can't love two people at the same time.  Get over your Judeo-Christian self and you'll find a happy medium for everyone involved.  Support your marriage, support your mistress, and have your cake and eat it too.

Okay, so, you have a wife (and family, maybe) and a provider that you have strong feelings for.  The point is to keep it all together.  On one hand you have a marriage with a wife you appreciate for all the great reasons you married her, and probably some kids to die for.  On the other hand, you have a mistress that provides you with sexual intimacy and companionship.    

You need to sit down and have a long talk with your mistress, and come to an agreement where you are not going to disrupt anyone's life more than necessary.  Be up front with her, and let her know that you are not going to leave your wife, that you appreciate your marriage for many reasons, and it is an integral part of your life that you do not want to disrupt.  Explain to her that you would like to keep her as your mistress, and that there is no reason for to feel compelled to break up your marriage.  Let her know that, if there's no marriage, there's no mistress.  Divorce would ruin everyone's great deal, including her's, and it's in her best interest for your marriage to remain intact, too.

If you come to terms with the fact that you can have a happy home life, and a happy love affair with your mistress on the side, and your mistress can come to terms with the fact that nothing about your marriage is going to change, then everything will be just fine.

You need to sit down and make arrangements to keep seeing your mistress in a commercial aspect, too.  Approach this from the point of view that you are, in fact, going to retain her services as a mistress, and be prepared to come to a financial arrangement which is agreeable to both of you.  I understand that you love her, and maybe she loves you, too, but she still needs to put food on the table, and if you two are going to enter into a relationship, you should expect to support her financially, too.  This will also keep the relationship in its place for both of you mentally.

It may last for years, it may not, but in the end if your marriage moves to divorce, it shouldn't be because of your mistress.

Just my $0.02,

BJ, Palm Beach

It's what I was trying to say.  Enjoy the moment now, don't think so damn much at this point because you're already knee deep.  Kind of like falling off a building.  On the way down you might as well enjoy the view - the sky - the flight of birds - the feeling of rushing air past your face - because it's inevitable that you are going to become a stain on sidewalk.

However Oprah and those yentas on the "VIEW" will never buy it.

*

Hey, Joey--

I don't know if this will help or not--or if I'm just being egocentric here in thinking that my situation(s) might be comparable and/or offer another point-of-view.  

Okay, here goes...

I have had two love relationships with clients.

First guy:  Married, kids grown, wealthy, successful CEO.  Super-nice guy.  We started "dating" and I told him I never, ever wanted him to give me money again (it made me feel like a whore...).  He wanted me to go on trips with him, and I did let him pay my expenses, as I couldn't afford to go, otherwise.  He gave me nice gifts, but not extravagant ones--although he did offer to buy me land and put a house on it.  I declined.

I came to really like his wife.  I never met her, but she was always there for him, moved with him, did the shitwork in the marriage, while he went out and was a bigshot.  From his descriptions of her, she sounded like someone I would want to be friends with. I am loyal to women (although I can see why people might not think this is so, given what I've said here), and it didn't take me long to decide that I would not be party to disrupting that marriage.  So, we decided to just "go with it."

Well, he got more and more into me and "love" turned into "in love."  I backed out.  Cynically, I believe that I could have taken him for a HUGE ride.  He offered to divorce his wife and marry me, or make me a coddled mistress... whatever I wanted.  I couldn't do either.  I'm not the right wife material for him--his wife is that, regardless of their (non)sex life. I didn't think that he and I would be happy if we were married to each other.  Being a coddled mistress isn't my bag, either.  Additionally, I didn't have the "in love" feelings for him.  I hurt his feelings, but I didn't ruin his life or his bank account.

Flash forward a good amount of time:
Second guy:  Single, not wealthy, closer to my age.  Love at first sight.  After our first provider-client meeting, I told him not to give me money again.  We are still seeing each other, almost a year later.  It's not been easy sometimes--that whole "girlfriend as provider" thing has been very difficult to surmount, but we are trying.  

So, I guess my points are:
1.  Not all providers are out to take clients for whatever we can.  Many (most, I hope) of us don't want to hurt _anyone_, regardless of how materially profitable doing so might be.  In fact, I insisted that the first guy and I have a contingency plan in case something happened to him when he was with me (e.g., a heart attack).  I wanted to spare his wife the pain of knowing that her husband died with another woman (god forbid).

2.  I believe that clients and providers _can_ have honest, caring, non-exploitive love relationships (regardless of whether or not "love" equals "in love").

3.  And I can't remember who the wise one was in this thread who noted that you can love more than one person at a time, but I totally agree him.  First guy loves his wife dearly, but their relationship hasn't had any zing for many, many years.  His relationship with me had zing, but I'll be damned if I'm going to stay at home and do all the shitwork, I don't care how much money he has.  *shrug*

Okay... I'll shut up now.
Just my .02.

very nice post.  I wish you the best and reading all the discussions about "love" between providers and hobbyists just reinforce my own proctection plan that I need to keep in my "big head".  Not that in can work because "love" is illogical and cannot be reason with until it is a little late For any hobbyists to go thru this kind of lifestyle and never had feeling for their ATFs is hard to believe....we are all human with emotion and feeling...yes, even the single one!

You are impressive, and rare.

I'm sorry for the flippant reply, but I see lots of problems ahead for any married person contemplating a serious affair.

In my non-escort dating life, I always steer clear of men who are married, or on the recent rebound, because they probably haven't "found" themselves yet and there is a third party involved.  Relationships are complicated enough without having all the extra emotional entanglements (guilt feelings, etc) by being seriously involved with a married man.

Now, speaking from my escort side, I really enjoy being with married guys, because they get to experience some great no-strings fun that they may otherwise not get to enjoy with their wives. We can be very fond of one other, yet neither of us have to worry that we will cross the line from being "in like" to "in love". I don't think twice about their wives or feel guilty because I have no intention of breaking up a marriage--I just enjoy providing some variety and fun.  


Good luck to you!

Chrissy from Phoenix

I'd like to meet you some day!

I suggest you just kill yourself now. It will be cheaper and less painful....

Speaker of cheaper...please tell us you had enough sense to take your new friend off the payroll...otherwise you are just another sucker in denial who will be taking money out of his kid's college fund...if not out of their mouths and off their feet...

-- Modified on 4/19/2003 8:29:30 PM

lack of ethics shown by the providers who exploit them.

of providers.  But he sounds like a guy who wants his feelings of being "in love" to be reciprocated.  If she leads him to believe she has feelings for him that she doesn't have, then she is unethical.

If he follows your advice and thinks of her only as a mistress and not as someone who is mutually in love with a man who is also in love with her, he will do fine.  This takes us back to the "mistress of a wealthy man" fantasy which is so ubiquious among providers.  Which is not to say that some providers don't get there.  

Can anyone say "Madame Pompadour"?

-- Modified on 4/19/2003 2:31:29 PM

I could almost fall in love with you

Honestly, great post

Being a mistress has nothing to do with being rich.  You would have been better off not commenting on arrangements in which you obviously don't have any experience.  If you did, you would know that the vast majority of stipends for mistresses runs in the range of $50-75k/year depending on cost of living -- a figure which is comparable to what many clients in this hobby spend over the course of a year between fees and peripherals.  I would hardly call that being rich.  I've only personally known 4 mistresses that can claim compensations that are in the 6 figures range, myself included.  It's a situation that is far more common than you think; just never talked about on PMBs like this because it's outside the "hooker" norm.

Where these "love affairs" typically go wrong is when the client ends up throwing away a 15-year marriage with three kids over a infatuation he of six months.  I'm telling him, he's better off in suspending further action, letting the situation remain at the status quo in a slow going balance for everyone concerned, and letting time run its course on the matter.  He may fall out of love with her in another six months.  No reason to throw away a marriage over it.  He may still be madly in love with her in five years... but if it lasts that long, and he finally decides he's likely better off with his mistress instead of his wife, time will tell the validity of the relationship.  There's no reason to do anything rash in the meantime.

The other place these relationships typically go wrong is when the client suspends payment.  This basically screws the provider, because not only is she left with a large chunk of her work time being spent with the love interest as non-productive, but she's also under pressure to stop seeing other men.  This leaves her sitting by the phone without an income, and it's highly likely her hunger will get the better of her, she will cut off the love affair and go back into work.

Mistake number three is when the provider wants to become the new "Mrs.", probably the stupidest mistake she could ever make.  She ends up screwing up his marriage, his life, his kids, his career, and his financials, and all three of them end up with bupkus.

Personally, I think these situations are temporary at best, and they should be viewed this way from the onset and throughout.  The only way for all three parties to be happy is with the marriage/mistress equation.

BJ, Palm Beach, FL
[email protected]

-- Modified on 4/19/2003 3:25:48 PM

..."Oh please," you line up some of the outcomes that are possible when a married customer and a Provider get too cozy.  This was what I was thinking about, not some Judeo-Christian moral standard.  Avoiding these pitfalls requires both parties to be able to keep their balance while at least one of them has their feelings on the line.  Not easy to do, IMHO.  That's why I'm so cynical about it.  I wish them luck, but I have my doubts.

My comment about "getting rich" was humor which may have been lost on you.  Don't feel bad, you're not the only who doesn't appreciate my sense of humor.  Might be nice, though, to see you make a few stabs at humor from time to time - makes the board more entertaining.

However, I would suggest that you not limit your views on the financial affairs of mistresses to those who you know personally.

Fantasies are fantasies; hence the Madame Pompadour reference.  She did a bit better than six figures in today's American dollars.  You are so extememely grounded in reality (a good trait, by the way, for a provider) that I'm not sure you understand the fantasies that others may have, so again my point may have been lost on you.  Stay grounded; your advice is a good part of this forum, and the other providers can learn from you.

Your advice is basically sound, and I agree with it.  Your suggestion that he think of her as a mistress with whom he has as arrangement rather than as someone who is in love with him is also a very good idea.  I'm not at all sure he'll follow that advice because, as I said, I think he wants her to fall in love with him too.  You are also correct that this is very likely an infatuation that will be only temporary.

But you didn't address my point about provider ethics at all.  Would you agree that a provider who says she has feelings for a client that she does not have is unethical?  (Regardless of whether the provider in this situation is doing that).

I absolutely agree, on certain conditions; it is highly unethical.  In my experience this situation wouldn't work very well if there isn't a very strong and caring connection between the two that is based on trust, even if the relationship is grounded in a loving friendship (more often the case, I feel) versus a "real" love affair.  

Sorry I misinterpreted your earlier statement, BTW, I did take your words literally.

BJ

Again, I guess I've "been there," and I do think she did the right thing in the former instance.  The first guy pushed it too far, and she was correct to back off.  I would start feeling pretty edgy about the relationship once it got to the point of him seeking divorce in her favor.  Once "love" gets to "in love" it becomes much more complicated when encompassing entire lives versus secret lives, and people get tunnel vision.  Once a relationship gets to the point where it negatively effects people's lives, that's when all the perspectives are lost and things get screwed up.  I think she's got a good head on her shoulders, and took a very objective look at the situation.

On the second part, again, I've been there.  I have love relationships that started with clients that continue to be best friends and lovers today, now going on quite a few years.  But I've chosen not to let them go farther for personal reasons; mainly because my personal life is very complicated and problematic "behind the scenes."  I've met some of the most wonderful people in this business.  This type of relationship is extremely rewarding, and there are many to be found.  Her experience is going to prove to be very fulfilling and rewarding in many ways.  

BJ

...you do have to have that balance and perspective to keep it together.  Unfortunately, we can't control the things that other people do, so it's also important who you are doing this with.

I would agree, it's a very unique experience that can be very rewarding and fulfilling for everyone involved (including the wife), but the "big picture" needs to be certain from the onset, and there are rules.  It can be a real house of cards, and if the man or the mistress don't keep communicating and agree to what the boundaries are going to be, it can be quite devastating for everyone involved.

BJ

I to have fallen for a provider, but I was not and never have been married.  This kind of situation almost never ends well.

The provider I met and I started off normally, but as our rendevous became more exciting and personal, as well as longer, we became much closer and did others things together.  Many times we decided not to let it go that far.  We started seeing each other not as client/provider, but as "dates", so we kind of went in reverse and are now going through the "courting stage"(lol).  She and I have so much in common, not b.s., but so many things that I won't go into.  We've been there for each other through both some good times and bad times supporting each other.  It's a wild feeling...

One thing to remember is, "don't be with someone you can live with, be with someone you can't live without!".

I've known my lady friend now for 10 months, and we're still taking time to get to know one another, but who knows???

Good Luck to you with whatever decision you make, but know that being married, someone WILL get hurt no matter which way you decide.

"Should I just kill myself now or wait for my life to be completley ruined...?"

If you love her....and she loves you... consider yourself a lucky guy. Maybe 'she's the one'. I met the love of my life after 17 years of marriage to someone else. No a provider, but we had an affair, got caught, got divorced, got married, had kids, etc. Life is good.

Maybe that's one reason I go out once in a while with ASPs, I'm too nervous around women, and maybe hope one will fall for a single normal guy who is a liitle shy & goofy.  Well at least to start.
I've had some great times with some great ladies, but it's turned out that only I was the single or unattached one.
Best wishes to you and your guy - yes they are big hurdles, but you can leap higher when someone is leaping with you.
- if you have twin - let me know

"don't be with someone you can live with, be with someone you can't live without!".

---------------------------

Ouch! If I think about that statement too long, I might realize I'm married to the wrong person.

Then again... is the one you can't live without, simply the one you can't have?

My brain hurts

...tricks you into thinking otherwise, but don't be fooled.  Nothing lasts forever, and we're all ultimately alone in the universe.  If we find someone special, the best we can do is enjoy them while they are here, and move on when they're gone.

As for wanting someone you can't have, the sooner you move on, the better.

My brain hurts too.

Ok, so if I get this right, you're married, but attempting a relationship with the provider.  The first thing you should take a look at is what you are really doing to your wife, then the other woman, then your self.

Barring your present wife's accpetance of a non-traditional relationship, and you're not mormon, how fair is it to your wife to pursue a relationship with this provider without terminating your present relationship with your wife?

If you and this new woman are really attempting a relationship, get out of the one you're in first.  If that isn't something you want to do, then it begs a much different question for you and the other woman to ask yourselves, and brings to question just how much of a relationship you can attempt to have.

Falling in love is a myth.  Love is something you DO and a decision you make every day of your life, it's not something you fall in and out of.  

Only you can answer the questions about your present relationship with your wife and the one you're lamely attempting to put together with another woman.  Figure out how you want to define yourself as an individual and then make the changes required to make that definition real.

*stepping off soap box*

who has fallen in love with her..
I am still suffering because I didn't want to see a guy who fell in love with me..it did not feel right to see him again and that he would think I felt likewise when I was nice to him..
When I told him I couldn't meet him againg 'it resulted in stalking and more..but would handle things the same way if it happened again!!

Let's face it, it is a conundrum.  The provider may be reluctant to put a stop to it because he may be a potential stalker, the hobbyist may fear a Fatal Attraction reaction. If the gal pushes for more than a business relationship and says no more fees, she is obviously not trying to exploit the situation, particularly if she is married as well.  If the guy stops paying his motivations may be seen as purely sexual and monetary.  It probably cannot work if the two are so hot for each other that they spend more time away from home/business than they ordinarily would, arousing suspicions and cutting into her income.  And if they had the discipline to limit this they would not have allowed the situation to happen in the first place.
Be human, try not to hurt anyone...hope it won't last and be prepared to suffer.."better to have loved and lost...."

It was a "love at first sight" thing for both of us (it seems).  she no longer takes my money, although I have helped her with some expenses recently.  

I have had affairs before but not with a provider.  For whatever various reasons I am not capable of monogamy which is why I explored the hobby.

There was good advice here and I will not do anything rash (which I considered) and will keep the "mistress" thing going to see where it goes.  She still has to work for awhile so we'll see how that goes.

Amen....but it is easier to just say "I don't have control" versus taking responsibilty for your life.

Twice...once on this board (by a provider), and once from a male acquintance, I have heard people say "you have no control over who you fall in love with". What foolishness. Neither of these people have lives I would aspire to however, so gawd bless them.
I can't imagine living in their world, where apparently things as importnat as who you allow to become a part of your life is "random".

It does make for a good excuse though every time you wake up unhappy...

"she no longer takes my money, although I have helped her with some expenses recently."

This is with a MARRIED provider?

Gawd, you are in denial...

I wonder just how many shirts you've put on her husbands back...or how many new amplifiers you've purchased for him and his rock band...

I can imagine it now...

Him: "hey babe...I'm kinda short...I need a new muffler for the Harley...you got some cash?"

Her: "ummm...no...but I know where I can get some..."

Im the married one.  I know what the money went too, it was for rent.  I meant she no longer takes money in exchange for sex.  We even get to spend time together without having sex.  I am not naive just stupid.

Fair enough...I guess I was thinking of another thread...a guy who said that his ATF was married but had fallen in love with him.

Not that you give a rats ass about my opinion, but what you are describing DOES sound a bit better than what I was imagining. Still, I have learned from personal experience, just for myself, that it is best to avoid people who seem to not be able to manage their affairs well. I'd want to know WHY she couldn't pay her rent, for example...Has she stopped providing? If not, then what is she doing with her income? I'm just saying...some people are determined to throw themselves down a black hole...and if you were single, it would be just your business if you wanted to follow her...but you aren't.

...speaking from experience, and i hate to tell you buddy and i know i'm wasting my time because it's something you need to discover for yourself...but you've fallen "in lust", not "in love"...i did the same and left my wife of many years whom i loved and had a lifelong friendship with for a slut i'd fucked a few times that couldn't stand in my wife's shadow yet somehow managed to turn me on like no other....at a time when i was yearning for passion...worst decision i ever made and i'll be regretting it the rest of my life...see....since our brains are in our cocks men have a tendency, when the penis is extremely happy, to confuse lust with love and instead of thinking half with the upper brain and half with the lower brain as we usually do....we begin to think all with the brain between our legs....lemme tell you this buddy...HALF THE PEOPLE READING THIS HAVE FUCKED YOUR WOMAN....nothing you do with her is secret or sacred...that's my cum you're licking out of her pussy....sex is an integral, normal, healthy part of life...and something that a provider cannot provide in a healthy manner because, whether they like it or not or admit it or not, they've become desensitized to it from constant exposure....you can argue all you want but that's the way it is....for them, unfortunately, sex is no longer a healthy, special, intimate, enjoyable act....it has become a currency....AND BELIEVE ME, YOU'LL PAY!!!

AND I HAVEN'T EVEN BEGUN TO DELVE INTO THE ISSUES OF TRUST, HAVING OTHER MENS' NEEDS COME BEFORE YOURS (may not have happened yet but it will for sure eventually because she has to make a living and those men pay her bills), TRAVEL (have you had to wait for her while she was on a yacht for a week or two with some guy and you couldn't even talk to her????....try that one on for size.....and there are a thousandfold more issues you don't even realize exist but will eventually discover should you stay your current path.....my advice....do anything and everything you can to bring that spark back into your marriage....counseling....THREESOMES....FUCK HER IN THE ASS...TAKE HER TO EUROPE....A SWING PARTY....WHATEVER!!!....and if that doesn't work then call it quits and go find yourself another hooker....or better yet...a simple, sexy, girl that works a regular job.....