Interesting twist on sexual attitudes. Wonder if future providers will be this casual?

There was a documentary on cable, don't remember the channel, a month or so ago dealing with this subject. They were interviewing a bunch of middle class kid's somewhere here in the US. Twelve year old girl's talking about how they liked to and were expected to give blow job's to their boyfriend's, etc. etc., TWELVE! What's next nine? Glad I don't have any kid's.

I see nothing amusing in 12 or 13-year-old girls giving blow jobs. I know we've all experimented when we were younger (some younger than others), but I would not want to think of my 13-year-old daughter wanting to or -- even worse -- feeling like she has to give blow jobs. Yikes!

Hugs,
ciara

-- Modified on 6/30/2006 11:13:18 PM

This is my favorite part: "the indifferent attitude toward performing oral sex that one would associate with bitter, long-married women or streetwalkers."

I thought married men turned towards providers because the bitter married women would no longer perform said duties. lol.

The article was looooooooong, but interesting.

I grew up in a small southern town.  My parents knew the parents of ALL of my friends.  They knew the parents of my girlfriends... heck, they knew everyone.  

I make it my business to know the parents of ALL my kids friends.  I am a divorced dad.  When I do not have my kids, I talk to the other parents.  They welcome me, why, because I have information that I share.  and I learn a lot.

I talk to my kids, and I let them know, no matter what, I love them.... but I also let them know that if they don't tell me what is going on in their life, I will find out anyway, therefore it is just better if they tell me!  Because if I find out bad stuff from other sources and they did not tell me?  the punishment will be much worse.

For the most part - they tell me everything...


but I also listen.  Sometimes I only want to yell, but mostly I listen.  The not yelling is the hardest thing I do... but by listening, I learn, and I have more opportunity to have input, and I do...

sometimes it takes a while to have an impact, but on those days, I fell pretty good about me!  but even better about my kids.

Do I want my kids to have a healthy and active sex life? yes I do, but only when they are old enough to handle the emotions and be responsible...  you know, when they are older than me! lol!!!



-- Modified on 6/30/2006 9:38:45 PM

but maybe the publicity about a President getting a blow-job and getting impeached for it had an effect here.  When else has such a thing broken into the main-stream press so explicitly?  Wouldn't that and the troubles around it make teens interested?  

And then there's the growing effect of pornography.  No, I'm not a moralist and I'm strictly against censorship-- for adults that is. Unlike say, cigarettes, porn isn't aimed at children, but with the internet, they will get some exposure to it regardless.  

I don't like the idea girls 12 years old performing oral sex, or feeling that the must do it to make themselves cool.

However, in another way, I'll confess I'm ambivalent.  The idea of your daughter having sex is always going to be terribly disturbing.  However, if given the choice, I won't enforce ignorance on her to prevent it.

Nevertheless, I realize it shouldn't come down to one or the other.

The young in our society are on the threshold of the type of lifestyle change that past generations have no experience with. A large contributor to behavior that young people show today is the uncertainty that they sense concerning the quality of their adult lives and their economic opportunities. Generations prior to the one that reached adult, child bearing age during the early eighties had a sense of entitlement and a belief that their futures would be better than their parent's. Children and grand children of generations that reached child bearing age during the early eighties do not have a comfortable feeling about their future,or the self confidence that certainty gives a person.
One realm where change has already taken place and will continue to take place is in this hobby. When I started hobbying in the early eighties, it was rare to visit with a refined, educated lady. Most ladies were poorly educated and had no other lucrative options to providing. Educated, beautiful escorts were so rare during my early hobbying days that I still remember the faces and figures of the handful that I was lucky enough to engage. Fast forward to now, it is rare that I meet someone other than a refined, educated and worldly provider in the 22-28 year old range that I prefer. I often have discussions with the ladies. One constant that I see is escorting gives them a fast means of getting the luxuries that some people of my generation take for granted.
Escorts of the near future will likely be women that would have never taken up the trade if from my generation or even from that of the ladies that I now see. They will as likley be from middle class, upper middle class and even a many wealthy families as from lower middle class and poor ones. I believe this path is what the future will bring for the hobby and society at large, the ease with which 12 year old girls provide blowjobs is a precursor to the change that is coming.

When does a girl become enough of a woman to take a man's penis into her mouth? How is it all right for you to give men pleasure orally and wrong for a 13 year old to give her friends a blow job?
If putting a penis in the mouth is safe for an adult why is it not safe for a teenager?
I believe it our religious dogma in an attempt to prevent pregnancy, that has created a stigma about healthy bodily pleasures. The world has changed dramatically in the last half century with the advent of birth control. It is time for our minds to catch up with these changes.

It has nothing to do with being moral or immoral about sex. We're talking about 12 and 13-year-old girls. I practically raised my nieces with my sister and the thought of them feeling pressured into giving blowjobs at that age is scarey. I'm all for a good joke, but I was merely commenting that children need to be children. They grow up too quickly. Are you a parent? I'm not, but I can honestly say I wouldn't condone this behavior.  A parent cannot always be there to protect or advise a child. I realize this, and I remember going through those growing pains and feeling somewhat turned on, but thank goodness the guy in question put a stop to the foreplay before certain things happened. It's one thing to have a first kiss, but another to stick a dick in your mouth before you even have a period. Think about the diseases out there now. Most 12 and 13-year olds are not mature enough to stand up to some boys and have the confidence to ask about condoms.



-- Modified on 7/1/2006 3:35:54 PM

"scare" article but understand the following--the majority of 12 year olds are not dating. If you let your 12-year-old out on an unsupervised date, you get what you wished for.

Secondly, kids lie about sex--I know I did.

Finally, if your worried that your 12-year-old is out there giving oral sex just wait until she gets married--she'll stop sometime in the middle of the honeymoon. Trust me.

If they can do that at a jewish party, I can't imagine the catholics!

why this does not ring true... then sadly, you will not understand the answers.  It is a simple matter of maturity.  Girls (and boys) are simply not equiped emotionally to deal with the emotions connected with sexual contact.  

Safe?  I am 58 and I am still not sure of my emotions.  I have also watched men my age, cave under less pressure that I have endured.  To ask a 12-year old (male or female) to deal with all of the emotions associated with sexual activity - with little or no guidance... is just wrong... especially if she was forced into this.

Sad to say, 12 and 13?  this is a time when most kids could care less about the opposite sex... they are mostly interested in which sports team they are on, and who is chatting with who at school.  

And yea, Birth Control changes a few things, like make it easier for the transmission of HIV, Chlamydia, HPV, herpes, and MDR STDs... yea, thanks, sure has been changed.  In addition we are just now discovering just how harmful and pervasive has been the effect of the Catholic Church's priesthood's preying on the young males (and females) in their charge in the schools... Yea, tell me about forcing 12 or 13 year olds and how it "does no harm"  

My response has little to do with religious issues, rather issues of public health

So, Dude, if you cannot comprehend the issues, I strongly urge you to get some counseling if you cannot comprehend this.  In my opinion, you seriously need it.  I for one would not wish you near anyone with this attitude; Provider, civie, or whatever.

If the press didn't know how to keep it quiet, then clinton should have just gone.  What he did was to utilize a position of power to obtain sexual favors.  Had that happened at Merck, GSK or Pfizer the CEO of each of those would have been jailed (as appropriate).  Clinton?  got to redefine the English language to define himself innocent.

Seriously, we create the world in which we inhabit.  You "don't like the idea?"  who do you think permits such behaviour?  We do.

I am involved... I meet with teachers and educators as often as is necessary to ensure that my kids are safe when I drop them off at school - any parent that depends on the "rest of society" to raise their kids will get the product that they deserve....

We get the govenment and society we earn... look at what we are earning now...

we can't even define ourselves as a society.  Sad that.

Sorry if this is a bit harsh... but I gotta tell ya, the attitude of ambivalence, indifference and passivity is really getting to me.

I keep quoting POGO here, but it is relevant... "we have met the enemy and he is us."

The militant muslim extremeists won't have to take us down, we seem to be doing a really good job at that ourselves.

My response to you: One piece of data says it all. "It is not reciprical"! In my view, it makes this phenomena totally explotitive. [sp?]. But even if it were mutual, all my experience as a parent, teacher, [mostly middle school] and a counselor tells me that 12-13 year olds are in no way equipped to deal with the emotions/reactions to engaging in explicit sexual activities. Futhermore, far too many of these youngsters [female and male] are being used by older males. Teenage pregnancy, to a large degree, is not sex amomg peers. Its older guys and young girls.

This is all an exageration!  My kids (13 & 16) have been to almost 20 Bartmizvas over the last 3 years, and I can assure you the Jewish parents who throw these don't give the kids the space to participate in this.  What I do find however, that young girls today are sooo full of crap, they talk a big game, but when it comes right down to it they feel as insecure with the oppoiste sex as the girls of my age did.  Yes, there is more  oral today than when I was a kid but no more sex in general, maybee less.  Teenager boys of today don't know how to ask a girl out, romance her, put the moves on her, etc.  Why?  They grew up having their Mommies and Daddies aranging their play dates, doing their homework, and setting up their baseball games.  When is the last time you drove by the local ball field and saw a bunch of boys playing the game without all their parents present.  I've been observing the neighboor field for 15 years and the answer is 0.  Believe me your daughters are safer with these putzes, than they were with me or my buddies 30 years ago!

Well I am 28 and have to say that I was thinking about girls when I was 12 and 13. I had girlfriends as early as 4th grade (nothing physical of course). I had even done the hand jerk at 12. I am not the least bit surprised that this would be happening considering teachers are having sex with their students in today’s society and porn is more mainstream than ever. I even know girls in their early twenties who have told me that when they are at the beach in their bikinis, young boys come up to them asking that they pull their tops down, or if they can smack their butts.

Even a minor one.  Cultures change.  Changes within a generation are often very disturbing to the generation before.  It doesn't equate to a calamity.

Girls used to be given away for marriage at age 12, and marriages arranged even sooner.  It was impossible for women to truly enjoy sexuality under those conditions.  Now we fret about exploiting women?  What does an early experience of consented oral sex between peers her age really do?  The only thing it's definitely guaranteed to do is traumatize her parents and the siblings, who then might take it out on her.    

There might be one part of this culture concerned with encouraging sex, but far more of it is concerned with restraining it-- especially for women, especially for teenage girls, whose sexual awakening is most often treated in the family as a disruption.  More than the family, religion and even the media (as much as it exploits it) do promote monogamy to women.

The fact is, the parents and children have different interests in their childrens' sexuality.  Those interests diverge in adolescence.  Much of our culture is the interplay between generations, as the parents try to keep their power.  Mostly, that's the dominant one we see, because it's the older generation that has its grip on established power.

However, since parents don't marry off daughters the way they used to, they have no interest in their daughters' sexual maturity.  As a result, they procrastinate about it-- institutionally they've establish this procrastination.  If given the choice, most parents would now prevent their daughters from maturing as long as possible.  (Many of them do this to their sons, too.)  It's the "cute" syndrome, the love for innocence run amok.  We've pushed the age of psychological maturity later and later for children, much later than their sexual maturity calls for.  IMO, the opposite is called for-- and this has results more tragic and disasterous than some oral sex in early adolescence.    


-- Modified on 7/2/2006 10:16:30 AM

Ever counseled a 12 year old who was violated?  (I have) ever seen the devastation when a kid is violated (no mind the age of the violator) - I have.  

You may wish to believe that only the parents are traumatized, but in fact, most of the violations are kept quiet and the parents are unaware.  So please, spare me the "it does no harm, it is only experimentation" !  

Most boys at the age of 12 are really concerned about sports, so they are not the ones going around experimenting with oral sex on kids the age of 12... It is usually old dudes who can't get it up any other way.  

please, think it through.  as a society, we have come a long way... are you suggesting that we should move backwards?  perhaps you would wish women to wear burkas?  

Seriously, this is no laughing matter.  With respect to parents and children having different interests.   That is true, however, AS A PARENT and as a person responsible for the continuation of society (I have taught students in a formal classroom setting) I can tell you that it is our responsibility to help the next generation make good decisions, and guide their maturation.  I am NOT my kids' friend, I am their father, that is a very different role.  When I taught, I was NOT their friend, I was their Teacher, Mentor.  Different role.

Keep my power?  I simply don't try, I do.  cause know what? if I don't the kids would not even brush their teeth... sheese... do you even have kids?  

There is a time to "let go" and there are gradations of that, but on some issues and matters, letting go of authority is staged... not an all out "turning over" as you suggest.

By the way, OUR MEDIA, is WAY out of control  - they report storied that they don't even verify, they have way UNDER Qualified journalists... and the editors are simply interested in promoting agendas... both the RIGHT and the LEFT.

-- Modified on 7/2/2006 10:15:19 AM

Dude, in case you have not noticed, a college education is essential for economic success, in this country, India, China, Japan - anywhere.  Without a college education people (men or women) are really doomed to menial jobs.  Should a young lady become pregnant, their ability to obtain a college education become significantly deminished.  I know several single mom's putting themselves through school right now, and they live a nightmare.  Care to help them pay?  Your are very quick to grant rights, but short on insuring responsible behavior.  why is that?

Did you know that neural connections in the brain are not complete until age 25 (depending on which connections are measured)?   (PM me for a bibliography if you really want some boring technical reading.)

I will do everything in my power to ensure that both my son AND MY DAUGHTER can be independant thinking people... and not have to depend on "a man(or woman for that matter)" for their financial security.  By delaying sexual activity until they can rationally handle the "Experience" they will have a better "First encounter!"

And what, prey tell, is wrong with innocence?  a 12-yr-ole is not even physically ready for sex.  really.  why would you wish to have sex with someone incapable of enjoyment?!   I  just cannot even comprehend....  Dude - take some classes in human physiology and development.  Ya need 'em.

and they should institute the draft for Bush's war to avenge the contract on his father and you should be be the first draftee. better a blow job than 2500+ plus dead Americans. a viet nam era draftee.

First, the concern in the article and on this thread was not with older guys molesting teenagers.  Your argument that this is usually the case is very well taken.  However, that wasn't what the article referred to, and that wasn't what I referred to either.  Both the article and I were referring to acts between teenagers.  Since you've confused the issue that seriously, I'll declare to you that sexual acts between an adult and a young teenager are immoral and criminal.  Why?  Because the power structure is different.  Because the sex isn't consensual, as one party is beneath the age of consent.  Metaphorically, I think the word "poaching" describes it pretty well.

As for sex between early teens, apparently, from surveys, boys at the age of 12 or 13 are more interested in it than you think.  If I remember that time myself, yes, I played sports and made a good game of looking interested only in that, but in reality, I was looking around for porn magazines.  National Geographic did very well in absence of anything else.  Guys I knew were that way, too.  

You imply from muddying these two subjects that we can't punish one without punishing the other.  You have hit upon something there: most other parents believe that to be the case.  I don't.  As I've described above, there's a well- reasoned basis for being offended by one that does not apply to the other.  

I never wrote the word "experimentation."  It's not the idea I wanted to convey.  You must have heard somebody else make a similar argument with that word.  What would more describe it as "practice."  Performing actions when they are relatively harmless so you are not overwhelmed when the may be harmful.      

"Society has come a long way."  Just what is meant by this statement, Bizarro?  Think about this lazy, shop-worn phrases and ask yourself if they really apply to your thought, because you've lost me here.  You take that phrase and make the jump to burkas!?  What?  Please clarify.  It seems to me if anything the burka represents women being over-controlled, that is to say, a slippery slope toward your direction, not mine.  So, what are you saying there?  

"No laughing matter."  I guess you mean to say it's not as minor as what I've said.  I've already explained: keep from lumping it in with the issue of adults poaching children as you have and it's not that big an issue.  

"You being responsible for making sure your children make good decisions..." what that means is you want to make the decisions for them.  

Please keep in mind we are talking about teenagers here.  Hopefully, in the example you gave, the children knew the importance of brushing their teeth before they were 13, or 12 for that matter.  

The media examples you gave are all the news media.  I was talking about the entertainment industry.  However, I myself believe that children shouldn't be exposed to video medium at all before the are 9, and should have it drastically limited before 12.  That's where I think parents must assert control.  I think 'directed' video at an early age tends to damage us.  

I really do not support Bush on several issues... and have delt with that on the political board... In fact, I have noted several times that there is little of Bush's policies that I can support.

But far more significant is the issue of decent leaders.   We seem to not have any.  Men (or women) of character and compasion, Men or women of intelligence and grace, Men or women who can understand the complexities of leadership in the modern world.  

So, sometimes to keep our democracy and liberty, note - 2500 dead Americans will seem cheap.  What would you have done in the late 1930's?  

Remember - they did find invasion plans in Hilter's papers.  and Make no mistake about the long term plans of the militant muslim extremeists... I just do not happen to believe that we are handling this in the best manner right now.

I served during the viet nam era as well.

However, I think it also depends on economics. If you live in a middle-class neighborhood where parents are heavily involved in their children's lives then I can definitely see your point. How about parents who are not around to give their children guidance or -- better yet -- where adolescense revolves around parents who are drug addicts? These children are left alone and they succumb to peer pressure much earlier? Many -- as Bizarro previously stated -- get pregnant and cannot attend college. If they do, it could be years later.

You've made an interesting point and I agree with the changing generation theory (just like some of what Zinaval stated). However, when we were kids we didn't take too much seriously anyway, but I'm more worried about how the adults are responding on this board to this subject not kids.

I think it's important that parents have some control over their children's lives (or at least I hope they do). It has nothing to do with not letting their children take chances or having a mind of their own. I think they are there to supervise. I had to be occasionally reminded to brush my teeth at 16 (and not because I was disgusting. I was just too overjoyed about going somewhere or too tired at night to do it). But, the fact that some may feel it's okay for 12 and 13-year-old girls to be doing this is disturbing. Hey, we all experimented with something as a kid. Heck! I kissed boys when I was 12 but I also was nervous about it, too. I also ventured into a few other things that I thought were not too harmful too (no, not sex) but it also made me feel very confused.

I know some girls are more mature and feel subjected to these types of situations. I'm no fool, but as Bizzaro said, it's usually older guys wanting the younger girls to perform these acts. I can remember that even from my childhood.

Hugs,
Ciara

-- Modified on 7/2/2006 5:56:04 PM

Z, again, it is you who tries to justify a stand that says it is ok to be irresponsible.  Responsibility is taught - not hard wired.  It is a daily task that you get up and go over and over again...  

By the way, your comment about the tooth brushing?  That simply demonstrates how little you know of kids.  Some of mine do it on their own since they were 6, and others still have to be reminded.  But to just say ALL kids will have the same set of maturity at any age is sort of silly... that is why society as a whole sets the age of majority (at least in this country).

With respect to masturbation and sexual realization...  few reach that at the exact same chronological age... Me?  I can remember all the cousins at Grandma's house under the blankets with our one female cousin who would let us look....  Sure, I am aware that some things will occur... but to condone it?  to say it is ok... to say it has no consequence?  sorry, it does.  Answer this; is it ok if it is a 12 yr old with a 12 yr old?  If so, how about a 12 yr old with a 13 yr old, or 14, or 15, or 16?  Where are the limits.

Last year I chaperoned a field trip with 11 yr olds.  I had one girl in the group.  She is my height (6 ft), with a shape.  A nice looking kid.  BUT - there was a problem during the field trip where she misbehaved... and here I find myself looking eye-to-eye with a kid who is my height (6 ft), but emotionally reacting as an 11-yr old.   Wanna bet on how she would react to a BJ?!  Certainly I would not, with anyone at any age.

Watching the kids?! yea... it is a full time job and a lot of work.  Perhaps if Papa Bush had watched George better we would not be in the mess we are in now... perhaps if Bill's mom had watched him a bit better we would not have had jokes about BJ's in the White House.

With respect to Burka's it was you who spoke of arranged marriages to SUPPORT the concept of 12 yr olds having sex.  NOT me.    

Clearly you are not around kids 24/7.  Bear in mind the first time I was away from my kids - was a trip that I planned as a personal get-away for a week end... That was One weekend in over 12 years.

Also speaking as a teacher - even most 18 yr olds do not act responsibly... some do, but most?  don't.  

What you remember - we all remember, but it was that, at least in my time, the time to act on those desires was limited... while we were taught responsible behavior and our emotional maturation was permitted to develop.  What you are suggesting is the opposite.

Sorry, but you would abdicate responsibility.... remind me to not live next to you if you have kids.

and many of you have read my comments about my ex.  the fact that I loath and despise what she did to our marriage....  BUT - mess with our kids?  we are a pair to be reckoned with.  We take on many issues together....  neighborhood bullies, school officials, sports activity coaches... you name it, we work together - because being a parent is a 24/7 activity in a way that no other position is.

Several here have commented on the sex issue... However, there is another "Fad" that is around... the "choking game."  In this, a person squeezes their carotid artery, shutting off the blood to the brain.  You are supposed to do this until you get light headed...  Several hundred kids die from this.  Kids as young as 8 -9 do this with a type of garrote.  Just before blacking out, they are supposed to loosen the tie around their neck.  Some don't.  

Sadly, many of the deaths associated with this are listed as a suicide... when it is the choking game gone wrong.

I had to speak with my kids about this.  My wife spoke to them as well.  I managed to get out of my son that indeed, he knows kids who participate in this....   his mom did not get that piece of information.  But she gets other pieces of info that I miss.... in short we have to share information to get the whole picture.

Where things fall apart is when parents do not communicate with each other... and worse where they do not work at creating a network of other interested and involved parents to get the information that is needed.

With respect to "pickup games"!  they still occur - or at least my kid(s) is involved in them...  They happen in the neighborhood.  What also happens are the same "swimming pool" trips during the summer, the same summer sports activities... they are all there.  or they are for my kids...   feel bad if that is not the norm... but that is why we chose the neighborhood that we live in... a small town outside of philly.  Key is small town, where everyone watches everyone else's kid.  

Kiss at 12?  yea.  Ciara, wish it had been you!  and mostly there were things that puzzled me growing up.  but out and out sex!? we just did not really have the opportunity nor the desire.

Many in this thread have confused curiosity with desire to participate.  My son is curious - and I answer the question, to the point where he says, "dad, that is all I want to know right now"  If first hand knowledge were forced on him, that would trouble him to no end...  and take away a sweetness that is truly refreshing.  My hope? that even in adulthood he remain a sweet person, not bitter, not resentful, not spiteful but forgiving, peaceful and loving.  Those that post otherwise, what would you wish for your kid?

My desire was to be faithful to one lady, have a family removed from the troubles of the world.  I failed in that!  But would I wish to spoil the world for my kids because of that failure?  What purpose would that serve.  How would he be better off? How would the world be a better place with one more bitter, or confused person in it.

Dudes, it is not control I seek, it is a useful contributing member of society who would think twice before coercing a subordinate into sex within the White House... or lying about his military record. or whatever recent presidents have done.  As I say, we get the government we earn and we have the society we ourselves build.  In reading this newspaper report, proud of ourselves now are we.  And make no mistake about it, we condone it.

-- Modified on 7/2/2006 9:55:06 PM

I'm offended when you ask **me** why I would want to have sex with a 12-year-old.  Is that what you think my angle is here?  That is totally uncalled for and insulting.  Also inaccurate, I'll add.  We've had discussions, remember?  Like you, I prefer large-breasted women.  Christy Canon, Annie Owens.  That precludes 12-year-olds.  And almost all older teenagers, I'll add.  

I took a college class recently, and I was in there with a lot of college age girls.  I was attracted to none of them.

I know your use of it was a rhetorical question, but I wish you would make that clear just so people who are reading the thread too fast don't get the wrong idea.

Nothing is wrong with innocence.  Quite the opposite.  Innocence is a wonderful and beautiful thing.  No argument.  The problem I'm underscoring is when some parents get obsessed with preserving it.  The problem isn't innocence, the problem is the response to it.  

I too have read about the neural connections not being complete till age 25.  The observation may be correct, but the interpretation of it is wrong.  It doesn't fit with other information.  One thing: for most of recorded human history the average lifespan was only about thirty years.  

I can't believe that our maturation process is so  off that people mature sexually close to ten years before they mature mentally.  If so, it's as much of an oddity as discovering a bird species that lays eggs before it could fly.  It seems to me that if such an odd thing is accepted without too much question, then it's because people are hearing what they want to hear about it: parents and developmental psychologists especially.  

It can't be that simple.  Perhaps the physical maturity of the brain is dependent on the environment in which we are raised?  Perhaps the environment is wrong for more rapid development?  Perhaps the new neural connections represent something besides maturity?  Something isn't right here.    

What you say about the economics is true.  I will say simply that's why we should rely on birth control a little more.  If that is to fail, extended families need more cooperation.  

I realize that the first isn't a satisfying answer. Moreover, though I'd recommend birth control in general, I think girls that age should stay away from birth control pills.  Just when hormones are causing changes, it's not good to add other hormones to the mix.  

If I were you, yes, I would be doing anything I could to get your children educated to college level and  beyond.  It's the best strategy you have...

...but there are problems.  First it's a big demand on any animal, humans included, to delay reproduction for 8-10 years after sexual maturity.   The second problem: they do lose an advantage to those who don't do this.  It's the "marching morons" hypothesis.  The smart people restrain their reproduction to get smart, but the dumber people don't restrain their reproduction at all.    Results?  The smart people end up either supporting the dumb people, or must someday kill them en masse or be killed by them.

It's in your hope that delaying your children's sexual activity till they can handle it leads to a better sexual experience.  I very much hope it works.  However, I'll contend that it's much less reliable a hope than even birth control.  Demanding that they delay sex doesn't make a better experience at the end more likely.  

Yet, what I really mean by this entire thing is this: if girls of that age want to try it, they should be able to with guys their age.  If they have their own initiative and curiosity about it.  

I woman I once dated (a civvie woman) told me that when she was 13 she picked a lock to get to a cache of porn and taught herself about oral sex with it.  She then found a harmless guy her age to "practice" it on.  

I wish it always worked like that.  I know it usually doesn't.  **Institutionally** I don't think it should be prevented.

However, for my daughter or my neice, no.  I would be in the same position you are in.  With all the theory I go into here, I do the same thing your advocating.    

I put the boundaries in different places and hold them there.  Why?  Because some emotions have reasons behind them, others don't.  

Responsibility isn't taught; it's enforced.  Children then learn to enforce it and practice it because they get used to enforcement and feel endangered by the wold without it.  Some simply reject it-- and they generally live miserable lives for it.

Nevertheless, if all the restraints were taken from children now (and let's not get into the results) in one generation, they would be enforced again.  So, in a way, I'm arguing a futility.  

Thinking about it again, children generally have their own restraints against sex, hence their practicing it on each other below a certain age is ordinarily rare even if it's higher now (and perhaps at the age of 12, it's really still rare despite what the children say.)

My own experience demonstrates this: when I tell you about looking at porn at age 12, to tell you the truth, when I first saw it, my main reaction was nausea.  It was simply posed nudity, too.  I didn't look again till perhaps six weeks later.  Within the year, I saw some hardcore porn, (intercourse and oral, pretty mild by today's standards) and I felt the same nausea.  

Now, how would it have felt if it were a physical encounter?  Protect a child from that?  You bet!  

However, because of my experience, I now don't think now that this thing is a trend.  I think it would ordinarily be rare that one of them not chicken out.  Where would I enforce punishment?  If one is two years older than the other, it's pretty clear who was in control.  

I've already agreed that it would rarely be teens of equal ages, and I've agreed that at different ages it's not okay.  And now I don't even think that culture can change in that direction.  There's not argument left here, Bizarro.  

Cultures change, but the biology on which it's based changes slowly, so slowly that it restrains cultural change.        

Arranged marriages and burkas: If you're citing burkas afterward, I don't think you understood my original point.  I meant to underscore different interests parent's have in their offspring's sexuality.  No matter what parent's say about their daughter's happiness, what they hope is that she won't have sex before marriage and that she (happily) marries upward, and stays faithful.  That way they have the best hope that their grand-children will be well taken care of.  

So, in one way, parents have already conceded a lot of power to children.  Instead of arranging marriages, they rely on manipulation.  

And that isn't worse than arranged marriages.

have made the same "offensive" argument to me.  Especially when I project their policies or logic out along a path. too bad.  so sorry, but what I see now, occurring in the country is an absurdity.  It is not that much of a stretch to believe that the projections I made will occur once most people say "sex at age 12 is acceptable."   Also, you keep wanting to go back into time, and behave as they did in a previous era...   the reference to sexual maturity and mental maturity....   Got news for you, deliver a baby to a 12 yr old... it will open your eyes.  ok dude!  they ain't ready - how else can I say it - they and their body just are not ready.  Just because a person ovulates or ejaculates does not mean that they are ready for sexual intercourse...  Your position throughout this "discourse" is that they are.... they are not. End of saga.

Whitehouse because of a failed land deal that balloned into a witchhunt. The blowjob was a coincidental finding in an effort to undo two elections. It is fortunate that Mr. Bush is not being treated the same way, maybe we have learned.

is not the land deal (sounds like others were far more involved than he), not his association with Tyson Chicken (although there I have concerns, but nothing that would call for impeachment), not the BJ in the White House (monica was of age, and had been around power so she should have known better), but the lying under oath, the casual response to American Lives being lost and his attitude towards all those who are in public service, whether it be firemen, police, or our military.  

That is unforgiveable - but we have had worse presidents....   I honestly believe that GW will be ranked below Clinton when all is said and done... the guy is a boob!  no ifs ands or buts about it.

I agree that a girl at 12 should not be having a baby.  

I know you have news for me and all that, but you do realize that pregnancy isn't possible thru oral sex?  

Dry humor, but I actually begin to wonder.   You've found a place on the slippery slope to doom and you've decided to make your argument there without regard to what I've actually written.  

My reference to what was done in the past was not meant as a model of a better world.  It was meant to show parent's interests in their daughter's sexuality and how it would be expressed if they still had the power to do it.  Society no longer awards them that power.  

Is it a good thing parents don't have that power anymore?  Most definitely!!  So why are you arguing that point?

You've illustrated a point that I would make now: I take you to be a great parent.  Don't take this wrong, but the greatest parents are by necessity a little insane.        

I realized some things when this thread caused me to think about them.  Once that's happened, I have to admit it.

Interesting and long article, and also some very interesting comments in this thread.  The author clearly has a sense of humor, even when dealing with a serious topic - the last sentence of this paragraph had me rolling on the floor:

"A huge report was issued by the National Center for Health Statistics. It covered the topic of teenage oral sex more extensively than any previous study, and the news was devastating: A quarter of girls aged fifteen had engaged in it, and more than half aged seventeen. Obviously, there was no previous data to compare this with, but millions of suburban dads were quite adamant that they had been born too soon."

Too funny.  

I was sixteen when I lost my virginity; she was fifteen and also a virgin.  We married five years later, and divorced thirteen years after that.  I think there were maybe three BJ's during the entire 18 year span.  Times have changed...