Second part of the previous question.

The way I see it - Men love the pursuit and challenge of bedding a seemingly unobtainable woman.  But when the sex is the first thing given up - what's left?  What's left to pursue?


I believe the reason many hobbyists fall for providers is not because they're lonely, pathetic souls - it's because the challenge now becomes getting her to give up the one thing that she doesn't sell -- her love.

We go after that like hound dogs - trying to show her how much she means, fooling ourselves into believing we actually are in love with her.  The goal is to get her to respond in kind - to get her to show it - to call us - to share her life with us - to see us without getting paid - to actually say it - "I love you."  And mean it.  But once she does...

Then what?

Ah... didn't think that far ahead, did you?

Anyone else see the light?

I get horny and I call a babe.  I have a couple of ATFs I see and I don't do much venturing beyond them.  I like them, but trying to obtain their love???  To me that's like looking for lost car keys where the light is good, not where one lost the keys.

-Hoot.

Hmmmm....

Let's get this straight-  If I want to be loved, I have only to spend the day with my Family.

I see the ladies to get a good massage and some sort of orgasm- preferably oral-but usually HJ.

While there are ladies that I recall fondly with a smile- I am NOT "looking for love".   If I was, I would certainly not go looking among the professionally sexy.   While they have great skills- they are not in the love game- they are on the sex game.

C'mon- we're men- we know that sex and love are two different ideas- that often come together, but more often apart!

I don't think I was looking for that when I got hooked, but once I did, yeah, I wanted my feelings returned.  I hear what you're saying though, and you're right, there's a real special feeling you get from being singled out of the "john pool" to be her friend or more.

As for the "then what?" part, my wife's lucky it was as one-sided as it was, or I damn sure would have left her for the provider I fell for.  I was so nuts about her.  Still am, but I know there's no future for us and I realize how much I would hate to break my wife's heart.

You really hit on something, though.  I remember another provider friend telling me how she had fallen more than once for clients who said they loved her, but when she revealed her feelings for them, they stopped coming or calling.  Was that all they wanted?  I don't know.  Do they realize that's what they were doing?  I hope not.  That would be the lowest.

Wow, you sure did see that light, but the right light I don't know, lol.  LOVE, yahhhhhhhh scaryyyyyy, friendship perhaps.  A nice how are you would be nice and not for trolling purposes either.  Creating a friendship with a provider or just anyone in general that you had clicked with is quite special.  And no I'm not looking for any freebies.  I've seen that type of behaviour you mentioned amongst friends and co-workers.  Their main game is to get a female whipped on them just to boost up their already inflated egos and then its adios muchacha.  But in this hobby, everyone has a different agenda.  But its nice to see when a provider and hobbiest do care for one another.  Just shows that the business hasn't fu***d them up, in my eyes.  Well everyone take care.

I would like to quote you "we're men- we know that sex and love are two different ideas- that often come together, but more often apart! "
I use to think that this quote was true, it is as long as the woman is interested in more than just sex like a true relashionship. In my expereince if the woman only wants sex all of a sudden the man feels "used" wants commitment an exclusive realshionship etc. I think most of us want what we can not have or is not available to us........why ? I do not know. This is of course my theory and only my opinion, based only on what I have either seen or actually have had  happen to me. When I divorced and before I started this biz .......all I wanted was sex! It was very hard or better yet impossible for me to find a man that would agree to just meeting for an occassional one on one. This is what got me hooked into the swing-thing.
Kisses & Licks....
Mara

Obviously you don't and haven't.  So this post doesn't apply to you.  I'm trying to cut through the macho bullshit and get to the real heart of the matter of why many do.  It's called self-evaluation and if it can help someone else - great.  We're still animals at heart - we like to chase - we like to catch and we love to devour.

It's probably the worst thing a guy can do - get a girl to love him and then dump her.  But a lot of us do it.  I too see it all the time in real relationships and why should this world be any different?  What better way to boost an ego then have a girl that has so many guys but singles you out to love?  I just want to know what the hell my subconscious is up to.  I can hardly figure out what my penis is up to, now this?!!!

I think you are mostly correct however I think you left out an important variable.

There as many different reasons to see providers as there are bobbyist.  Inclusion into that predominately male pursuit is the competition factor with other hobbyiest. To be told they are the best one, the cutest, the nicest, the most generous the most attentive...all those things most guys wanna hear or if not told directly will try to pharrot out a response that would enhance their ego.  The love factor could be just a metaphor for them knowing they made the top wrung with the provider. Not saying she isn't important for without her there is no competition and top wrung to be had. Just a thought.

2nd part didn't state the "those that fall for providers".  Either that or I still can't read, lol.

[We're still animals at heart - we like to chase - we like to catch and we love to devour.]  

You might want to re-examine this.  Is this really such a truism among hobbyists and why they are in the hobby?  I would have no problem saying this applies to a certain subset -- but an across-the-board generalization?  I don't believe it.

I believe the men who fall for providers are by and large lonely.  You said in your original post that men who fall for providers do so not because they're lonely but for the challenge of winning her love.  Then you qualify it in later post saying you are talking about those who've already fallen for a provider.  Well yeah.  They fall for them in the first place because they are lonely, THEN try to win the girl over.  I seriously doubt that there are many men who set out to win a providers love from the get-go.  They fall first, and do all they can hoping the girl will fall too.

I had no idea I would ever fall for a provider and that was the LAST thing I ever thought would ever happen to me, alas it has.

I do know this, I have known many women in my life and I have yet to find one as caring, as warm, as loving, as fun to be with as the provider I love.

Will it last? Where will we go now? What will my parents say? Ask any number of questions and the answer will still be the same, I have no idea. All I do know is that I am happy. Oh I don't get to spend enough time with her that's for sure but maybe that will keep the "honeymoon period" longer.

Flames will be ignored.

me

I'm not sure but I think I'm as equally entertained as I am saddened by this thread...

Sedona

I agree Mara. I was celibate for 11 years, while raising my sons alone because every guy I'd meet wanted to be "Uncle____" to my kids and wanted to take care of me. I loved pampering and spoiling them but I didn't need to be TAKEN CARE OF...All I did need was the skin on skin exchange of energy between two people....but they just didn't get it...!!! Once my kids were grown, I started to date again, only to find that most guys that date love the Wine and Dine Thing. Which I didn't have the time for. Oh they would always say they wanted no commitment, but yet if you just offered sex, you were a SLUT and not worthy of a second date.~!!! So if I really liked someone, I had to play this GAME where I don't kiss on the first date, then, only heavy petting by the third date and maybe, three months down the road you would actually have sex, with the lights off..!!! Well by then they had a moving van rented for the next day...that's when I bailed..!!! It didn't take me long to figure out I didn't have the time or energy for all of that, so now, as a Provider everyone gets what they want...Win win....No GAMES...all the cards on the table where they belong....If Hobbyists and Providers start dealing from the middle of the deck, changing the rules in the middle of the game, no one wins...In my opinion.....

Very interesting that you men seem to address the primal need to Chase, catch and Devour, but ignore the fact that all of this stems from the fact that we (humans) are not monogomous creatures....Oh, society would like to make us think that that's the ideal, but the reality is, we never loose the desire to be desired by members of the opposite sex, whether we are married or not. That never goes away because it's not suppose to. We were designed to be energized by flirting and just sharing space with the opposite sex, not just on a sexual level. But somehow we've learned to consider that a bad thing and worthy of our guilt.Yes folks, men are hunter-gatherers and women are nurturers & nesters, but something that is much more primal is getting our needs met. I think too many people see spending time with the opposite sex as being unfaithful....I don't...your partner and others are like apples and oranges....both good, necessary, but still very different. One should not need to replace the other...

Initially my desires were animalistic but quickly evolved into companionship as well; unforunately I was not in the company o escorts but just hookers, lacking in class and smarts and not so great in plying their trade.

------------------------------------------------------------
'90% of this game is mental'

I suppose all the while, I was looking for love, still am. but, I think I may have found it. Two gals, and even if I'm only half right, dat spells a relationship (I hope). All it took me was 18-21 months of 'try-try-try', to find beauty, brains, intelligence, maturity, wit, sense of humor, and a terrific time in the boudoir (I think to order is indicative of my priorities).
-----------------------------------------------------------
Sex, then love ... in Judeo-Christian mores these two may be reversed but why not? Would 'eggs and ham', 'cheese and macaroni', 'ballgames and hot dogs', 'Cher & Sonny' , 'Bacall & Bogie' really be that much different? IMO - Not.


-- Modified on 1/4/2003 6:13:04 AM

modern life, post-modern life, post-post-modern life... depending on which theory is run up the flagpole, doesn't offer too much in the way of emotional nurturance. If anything is sad, it is the idea of millions toiling away so they might eventually reach a valhalla of purchasing power. All this against a background of emotional sterility and synthetic connection.

Possibly you could be so propagandized into believing that this is normal existence, then you have your provider moment and skid off the grid for an hour or two...

But for that moment you felt something you might not have felt since infancy or early childhood... sure, you'll be host to some "irrational" emotion..

I agree.  The love factor could be just a metaphor for getting to the top rung.  But as with a chase - it's the climb many men enjoy.  Primaly.  Competitively.

Just trying to understand and verbalize the strong feelings passed back and forth inside professional relationships.  Many will be find themselves in very depressed states from time to time after falling either way.

I have a S/O and don't want or need any baggage. It would be easy for me to get a girlfriend, I've never had a problem in that department (not bragging, just being honest), but don't want all the potential trouble that goes along with having an affair. Also want to be fair to the woman and not lead her on. It is called being legit. I think your premise is all wrong. If a guy really gets a thrill from pursuing a woman and then dumping her once she is "caught", I would think he would do it in the "civilian" world and not pay for the privilege. I think that 99% of guys who fall for a provider really are lonely souls who buy into the fantasy. For most of these guys, it is the only way they are going to get a good looking hot woman to even go out with them, let alone sleep with them. Think you are trying to turn that remaining 1% into the norm. IMHO, you are not even close in your anaysis.

Another expert opinion from someone who has obviously never been there.  If you've spent weekends with an ATF and do get emotional feelings - whether you ever intended to from the outset - men that spend a great deal of money on a particular woman do start wanting more - to be at the top - to get more then the other johns.  Then the pursuit for that elusive 'off-limits' area does become a pursuit to gain.  And it's far greater then the 1% you quoted.  Strong feelings are never completely rational and never truly intended at the onset.  To lump all men who fall for providers as lonely pathetic souls who could never get a woman to even look at them is as bad as sterotyping all providers as scanky street hookers with hearts of stone and as we all know.. that's just not the case.

There are some excellent points to this thread - I actually see the ripple effect of thoughts going everywhere.
First, I'd like to comment that everybody is pretty much 'right' - I don't think anyone's comments are wrong, or off-base simply because no one has traveled in their shoes but them.
I also don't think that men, overall, get into the Hobby for the PURPOSE of falling in love/or making the Provider fall in love - that's not the REASON they Hobby, but is, often, a RESULT. I also don't think the whole falling in love (either person)/the chase/ego thing/dumping, et al is so much singled out as the Provider/Hobbyist relating, but quite simply as how it is between men/women. No surprise to see that spill over into a Provider/Hobbyist relationship!
I remember one question on the boards that wanted to know if Providers had husbands, boyfriends, families? etc. As if Providers were aliens dropped out of ships..We're all just people and the clients and providers are all your normal people you see everyday (in fact even more so) - they are your child's teacher (yes!), your doctor, tax accountant and neighbor. So, sometimes it's difficult to relate to the question when the question separates or isolates the grouping. (Hopefully, that made sense. It does to me). Are there lonely men? Women? Sure. So there are in the hobby also. I don't happen to have any callers who are lonely and come to see me. But, that's simply my experience. For many, it's not even about sex. It's some release time, a way to calmingly, lovingly de-stress. To be in the company of someone who accepts them, likes them, welcomes them that is apart from anything else going on in their life. I like to think I provide an Oasis. As Silky so aptly put - being a Provider provides a Win/Win situation. I meet more and more ladies (not all Providers), who, like me, aren't looking to marry; don't necessarily want a boyfriend (exclusively); aren't into the Dating scene (what would be the purpose?) and all that BS, but DO: love the company of (varied) men, treasure those intimate, close times, and feel that they are sending each one on their way with a glint in their eye, the steam to conquer all that they do daily, some form of inspiration..and most of all, some feeling of being special, and of being loved.
As both Mara and Silky mentioned, that to try to have these types of relationships conventionally caused some real discomfort and misunderstandings. Trying to state the needs and expectations of that only made it more confusing. Things have to fit into some kind of peghole, and for women to actually WANT these kind of relationships can be confusing to men, when, in the past, that would be more MAN-like (and also better accepted).
Again, the Provider thing fits the bill. Or, the Swing-Scene, which can be very exhilarating and liberating.
Thanks for allowing me to carry on, if you're still with me. I say, just relax, enjoy what you have...

xoxo,
Sedona

FF, I respoonded to a post below that you made regarding some mans fantasy to turn-on a provider by joining her with another man.

This post shows a lack of understanding that there are males out there with feelings and that sometimes men and women get together and some times they play mind games.  I think Melvinators post is soul searching and somewhat disturbing.

Men do want to achieve success in the relationship world and sometimes the line is blurred as to where the fun in sex stops and the fun in the challange starts.

To you this all seems to be just sex.  Just get off, then get off.  For many more of us than you seem to realize we like to get off, then for our own egos wonder "was it as good for you as it was for me"?  That leads us to the next step, can I get her off and more importantly can I find a way to be sure that she really did and isn't faking it.  Once that has been achieved, what else can I do?  The next step could be can I make her say she loves me?  It is a hard question to face, some just turn to another provider, others want the challange, and some fall themselves in spite of themselves.  

I wonder if you, FF, have ever gotten to the place of even wondering if she came.  "Yeh, I got mine, thanks babe and here's your $".  And if that is true, I think you are missing  some of the natural male drive.  I.e., not so masculine after all.

This is not meant as a flame, but a suggestion for continued probing into the sex organ called the human brain.

I am smart enough to never allow myself to go there. I still maintain that those who do, do so because they are incapable of finding their "fantasy" in the real world. For those of us who can find it, why would we ever enter the danger zone of falling for a provider? You're right, "strong feelings are never completely rational", but what we allow ourselves to do with those feelings can be rational. No offense, but I just think that providers find a lot of easy vulnerable prey among hobbyists. I think that makes a lot more sense than your premise that predatory men get vulnerable providers to fall for them and then dump them.

rationalize dangerous and harmful ideas, and give those vulnerable guys I talk about a false glimmer of hope: ie. if I love and pursue her hard enough, I can get her to love me. In most (not all) instances, they are setting themselves up to be taken advantage of by a provider (now here comes the slam that all providers are really angel's of mercy). It is like telling kids that their ticket out of the ghetto is sports. Yes, one in a million make it big, but 999,999 end up with no education and a life of poverty. I believe it is better to tell it like it really is and maybe dissuade a few of them from heading down a dead end path (both sports and having a real loving relationship with a provider).

... now that I have fallen for a provider, when she and I go our separate ways and I rejoin the Hobby, what will I be looking for?

I never got involved with one before.  I wasn't looking for more than no-strings sex when I started hobbying.  I didn't want to have a girlfriend on the side and all that brings with it, so the Hobby was perfect for me.  Now after many years of it, everything's been turned upside-down, because I got too close to one special lady.  This experience has been painful, but educational, and has changed how I think and feel about some things.  

Anyway, I already see the handwriting on the wall as far as my ATF/"girlfriend" is concerned.  That means that one day soon I'll be back among you.  What will I be looking for then, subconsciously as well as consciously?  What will I do if I find another provider who seems to like me and whom I click with?

"fooling ourselves into believing we actually are in love with her". Sorry, but I honestly believe that anyone who does that is much more likely to be a "lonely, pathetic soul" (your words), than the predator male you are trying to create that entraps these women (even unwittingly) and then dumps them. I know this is harsh, but I believe you just don't really want to look in the mirror and call it like it is. If you are really honest with yourself, why this post in the first place? What would a man who is honest with himself care what a bunch of anonymous posters feels about what is obviously a very personal matter to you? Just a thought.

"""I believe the reason many hobbyists fall for providers is not because they're lonely, pathetic souls - it's because the challenge now becomes getting her to give up the one thing that she doesn't sell -- her love."""

Because you did not state this as "the primary reason" it makes it harder to disgree. I'm sure that there are some so coniving{sic?} they this is their primary reason for doing what they do but I see this type of person being something of a narrow class. It is rather sociopathic behavior and as such, few men have that kind of traits. Such calous disregard, I hope, is uncommon.

At the outset, I think it's very important to distinguish "love" from "liking a whole lot" or some such thing. Because I believe that the primary ingredient to "Love" is concern for another person's welfare, a person "In love" would not behave this way. I have been very cautious in not using that powerful word in the few such relationships (in this context especially) that I've found myself in.

I also don't entirely believe that we choose who we love. Not in a normal sense. Love comes naturally, or as Gibran puts it, "LOve chooses us". So, when a man meets a woman in a provider/client setting, it is no different than if he'd met her getting a haircut, or catching a cab. I really don't think "love" occurs any more frequently between client/provider than it occurs in everyday life. How could it?

But many of us do seek out ladies for comforts we don't get at home or to express ourselves in a sexual manner we would not feel comfortable doing in a "normal" relationship. And that may makes us more prone to the illdescribed "love" that is spoken about.in this forum but evn then, the behavior in such a case is not predatory like what you described.

BK

I agree with almost everything you said.  No one ever truly intends to fall/pursue/etc but it sometimes just happens - especially for those you really click with.  It is of course the same with normal relationships as well.  But I don't agree with your one statement - that you girls didn't fall out of the sky from alien motherships... We all KNOW that's true.

Because that's what every guy looks for when breaking out of a long term relationship.  And that's what makes TER so great.  Go through the reviews of some of these great gals and you'll be salivating for a ride.  And just a ride.  Oh sure, some new ATF will happen along - some day - but at first it's just back to having fun.  Plain and simple.

impossible situation into a more manageable one like a long lasting friendship/relationship.

Good luck, both of you.  Sorry, Melvinator, I don't have any insightful thought on your questions.

What is life, but a collection of memories.

What do you do when you've gotten that?  When she has let you into her private life, opened her secret doors to you....and you now realize that her heart is as soft as the skin you've enjoyed and invested so much in?

But even the smartest men in our country have done stupid things to be with forbidden fruit.  And I never said it was predatory men trying to get providers to fall for them.  Man, do people read anymore?  I said it was an extension of deep feelings for a provider/girl/girfriend that you've fallen for that shares herself with more then one man.  Once you've been to third base, you start wanting 1st base... then home base.

You need to actually read and understand the posts here before you start trying to evaluate and educate us, FF.  Nothing I have said would suggest that there is the slimmest chance that any of us 'pathetic souls' could ever get these sweet providers to fall for us - to love us.  Please don't drag me into a piss fest with you.  You're obviously smarter and stronger and more honest with your feelings then I'll ever be.  I envy you.

I would think that falling in love should be the furthest thing from a hobbyist's mind.  Yet, your thrill of the chase theory is intriging.

So, the question is, Is this "love" you feel real or not?

The answer may lie in the hobbyist's reaction to a provider's indication that she is feeling something for him.

It seems the hobbyist's response is likely to come in two forms...

1) FEAR/PANIC This reaction (probably the most common) would indicate that the "Thrill of the Chase" theory is, in deed, the logical cause.

2) ACCEPTANCE/EMBRACE Clearly the least likely and more rare... this would suggest that the "condition" may be mutual and probably based in honest emotions.

Either way, this is clearly not something a hobbyist should be in search of as he participates in the hobby.  However, awareness of the Chase Syndrome seems a good way to reduce the chances.

In the end, we are all human beings hobbyists and providers alike and as such, we MUST always treat each other with respect.  This means, whatever the reaction, it should be made known to the provider immediately.  

If the hobbyist realizes he is into something he doesn't want, he should not flee like a coward but simply be honest and direct with the provider.  If the love is not sincerely felt on the hobbyist's part, the provider will most likely choose to back off.  However, if the hobbyist finds himself genuinely affected, he must discuss the issue with the provider so they both have a chance to honestly confront the situation.

Not the best of situations for the budding of new romance, but stranger things have happened.

I am currently having an affair with a Brazilian provider I hired in Sao Paulo.  I can´t imagine hurting her or letting her down.  But I also know this is not going to end in marriage.  It is a difficult situation to analyze.  My goal is to treat her like a lover, while not falling into any habits of wanting to know about her private life or her work life.  I think it will be OK because we both know I will be going home soon.  We both know this is a fantasy.

There's a great scene in the movie "The Last Tycoon", in which Robert DeNiro plays a studio head, and describes to an author what it means to write a screenplay. DeNiro weaves a fascinating tale about a woman, which starts off by having the woman take a dime from her purse and place it on the table. Within minutes of hearing the story, the author is begging to know how the story ends. DeNiro shakes his head and says he doesn't know. When asked about what was the point of the dime on the table, DeNiro says it's for the movie ticket.

What I would argue is that when we see escorts, we are similarly placing our dime down to be entertained. The entertainment can be moving and, at rare times, really knock our socks off. But it's important to remember that, when the "movie" ends, the show is over.

Providers could end this debate very simply.


From years ago on  Love American Style, a man pursued a woman who refused to take off her gloves. She was willing to have sex, explore all other aspects of the relationship but would only remove those gloves for her one and only.

His attention was only the gloves in hopes he would be the chosen one.  Simply he objectified her no longer able to see her as a complete person but an accomplishment. No matter how you slice it...that aint love. If a hobby dude is only going for what's not for sale then he is guilty of the ultimate sin...that of complete and total objectification of another human being.

I'm glad you put it in those terms, Christina. Usually, I, being self centered in such affairs, only think of my "sensitive" feelings & feel the provider has a heart of stone. There is one woman that I've fallen for within the past few months. Before her, I was just looking for some periodic sexual excitement. She & I get along very well & talk on the phone between sessions. It was her idea for me to call her. I still remember the first time I called, 4 days after she suggested it, & she asked, "why didn't you call me ?!". Needless to say, I was touched. My decision has been to only see her. This is due to her statement that, "If you see another girl, I'll kill you", jokingly, of course. When I told her on the phone how much that statement made me laugh after we'd split for the night, she said, "I wouldn't kill you... I'd cry". Is this woman a pro, or what? I'm drawn in completely!! The thought that there's something between us has me intrigued beyond anything I've experienced in over 10 years. My second marriage is on rocky ground & if there was a relationship here, regardless of her work, I'd jump in for the ride. Have you any experience to relate?? She's expected back from a "working vacation" this week & said she'll call me Monday or Tuesday. I'm going to want to see her this coming week. How do I go forward without being TOOO obnoxious or demanding ?? HELP!!

You say he is trying to "..rationalize dangerous and harmful ideas, and give those vulnerable guys I talk about a false glimmer of hope..."

As I see it, the issue deals with a question of a males desire to conquer leading to a goal of getting the provider to love him. Is it a built in thing and hearing "I love you" the natural ultimate conquest for some, whether or not it is done intentionally? And then how we as the persuers get caught up in what we've done and how do we deal with it?

You mentioned the lonly pathetic souls in a previous post in context exactly backward for that of the origional post.  Those are the "vulnerable" guys you speak of which are exactly the ones Melvinator excludes in the bagining.

Have I any experience to relate....
My ex husband was a client.  The ex part has nothing to do with the business end of how we met whatsoever.  I quit the business and became his completely, but that is a story unto itself. As for you, my only advice would be not to jump from the frying pan into the fire.  Enjoy her company, enjoy how she makes you feel but deal with your current reality first and foremost before trying to make something work with anyone else be it a provider or just Mary Jane homemaker.  Has your current paramour decided to quit the business and just be yours?  Would you like her to do that?  There are tons of questions you would have to ask yourself before diving into something more serious.  Good luck.

Christina

Forgot one little thing.

My ex husband was far from a pathetic and lonely soul.  The thought that all "hobbyists" (i personally don't like that term) are lonely and pathetic souls is really very laughable.  
*ducking from any slamming comments*

C.

Thanks... I don't see myself as a "pathetic loser". The truth is, I've always had a woman in my life. In fact, I've never enjoyed being without one (therapy indicated?). My ATF I'm referring to said something to me the 2nd time we saw each other that really hit me...she was overly complimentary & seemed to be discouraging me from seeing providers. Her exact words were, "You don't need to come here. You have nice clothes, face, & a beautiful body". I replied, "You're very nice", to which she responded, "No, I'm not being nice". The genuine attitude shocked me. I certainly don't see myself in the glowing terms she used, but it was refreshing, nonetheless. Before checking todays Post, I called her & we spoke for a while. I'll be seeing her this week. For fear of scaring her off, I'm going to slow down a little (that'll take some effort, but I can do it!). She & I had a conversation last time we were together regarding a problem a friend of hers is having. She said, "I told ***** what you said & she wants to talk to you. Can I ask her to call you?" This little step seems so intimate... why ruin the "dance" with hamhanded sledgehammering? I feel like a teenager...Finally nuts!!

I know of one Korean superstar (maybe the superstella di tutti superstelle locally in LA, currently on vacation) who has had a problem with stalkers in the past (one of them, I believe, a regular poster here, but that should be no surprise).

No doubt, she is a beauty; equally no doubt, the service is consistently in the 9+ range, but absolutely no doubt, the lady takes pride in her work and probably considers it more performance art than a job. She may even like some of her clientele, but at the end of the day, it's just a gig and nothing more. A lot of guys don't get the concept, which is understandable but problematical at the same time. Better to leave the relationship at the door, if you ask me.

Many of us choose to be here because it suits our purposes. I'm here because I want to take no chance that my fooling around will interfere with my real relationship. An affair could create a problem. Here I am able to enjoy the company of lovely ladies and make it crystal clear that it will lead to nothing more. No false maybe's, no leading anyone on, no entanglements. Suggest you keep things in proper perspective. IMHO, "I wouldn't kill you... I'd cry" sounds like a line that would be used by a pro who was playing you.

I think ego is often at the heart of it. In fact I am surprised that some entrepraneuring provider or providers haven't tried to hold a contest of who was the best lover of the year. Kind of like the acadamy awards. Or some type of competition that pits hobbyists against hobbyists.

Would be interesting to see how we responded.  As far as conciously seeking love like a trophy, I am not sure that we are that callous on a conscious level but I think it is definitely there...