Here is my question to you guys... Just wondering if this "hobby" is worth it.  I am referring to the married men.  I went on outlook for work, and found my husband's secret hotmail account.  Pretty juicy.  He set up his "appointments" by email, and I guess would call them after to confirm.  Shocking that he wont let me see his phone records.  So we have 2 children who will now be raised by divorced parents.  REally sad for everyone.  Our marriage of almost 10 years down the drain. Now he is the one crying and upset about losing everything.  Guys, just be aware...if your wives find out, your real life will change. I am the wife trying to get though the heartache.  I am crying every night. I just found the emails 3 weeks ago.   pLease help me understand the "addiction" Thanks

Who knows what is all involved in your individual situation...  Try therapy.  And you may still never understand...

Regards,
Megan

I am sincerely sorry for your heartbreak.  I can only imagine how terrible you feel.  I know many many married men in this "hobby" who involve themselves for many different reasons.  Reasons I have heard range from the "player guy" who wants to sleep with 20 year old super model types to kind, lonely men who love their families too much to leave, but feel their wives have lost their passion for them and they feel rejected.

Only you know your husband to know why he is here.  Before throwing in the towel, you may want to ask yourself if you husband is "the player" or if he is truly a good man who is lonely at home.  If he is looking for variety and the chance to go to bed with women who otherwise would not have looked twice at him, that's a hard fix.  If he is missing the women he fell in love with who used to kiss him passionately and make him feel special, maybe you can reach within yourself and remember why you married him in the first place and see if you can't refind your passion for him.

If you husband is on TER hobbying, he is not just paying for sex, he is paying for us to go away. If he lost his love for you, it seems he would have a girlfriend, not Hobby.  

I hope for your kids sake, you can take this oppertunity to rebuild what you had 10 years ago and find it in yourself to understand him and hopefully some day forgive.

Hannah

I was going to write a reply, but found that everything I had intended to say was said elequently by longcurlybrunette.

I am sorry for the heartache you must be feeling right now. You have to do what you feel is best for your sanity and emotions. I do hope though, that before throwing in the towel, you will try to work through this. I also suggest that you post this message on the discussion board The Erotic Highway (link is to the left). The "love Goddess" is a lady with tremendous wisdom and insight who may be able to offer you some very constructive insight.

Good luck to you, whatever decisions you make.

and that may be an indication of your "problem" more than his.

If he has been a good father to the children and companion and provider to you, perhaps you should be asking yourself why YOU think 10 years HAS to go down the drain.

If you think the male inclination for sexual variety is an ADDICTION, then you do not understand the male animal.

There are other societies (including many so-called "third world") in which women have a more mature and understanding perspective on the common male need for variety.

After all, WHY are you even at this site?  Instead of paying for therapy, perhaps you should ask him what his sexual needs are in such a way that he is willing to tell you the truth.  Few men in THIS country feel they can tell their wives the truth.  That is more a reflection on "liberated women" than it is on husbands.

Thank you for your responses.  He was a father and husband that was there physically, but not emotionally.  I agree that few men feel they can tell their wives the truth.  The problem is that they feel this way, but instead of going to their wives, they find another "hobby". I am on this site-I just learned about it when I found his emails, and wanted to know where my husband was for the past 4 years.  I am seeing a therapist who is helping me.  I just wanted to learn more about his world.   Your responses are helping me. Thank you.

HER problem?  Has he no mouth to speak to her and tell her is unhappy with certain aspects of their marriage?  Seems this is more of a reflection on how wimpy you perceive the male animal.

Perhaps the male animals themselves do not understand their own inclination.  After all, if they did, they would not have committed to their wives in the first place.  If it is variety they seek, they should not ask for committment.  Very cowardly, imo.

Unfaithful....I am in the same boat, yet with 20 years with him.  I admire your courage to come here and ask the questions, we may never have answers, but at least we are honest, and try.

Hi,

Ok, I've been in this "hobby" for approx 9 years.  Seen lots of ladies.  I've been married 24 years (25 next May).

Why do I hobby?  I like the variety.  Period.  Thats primarily the reason.  Now I do have passionate sex with my wife.  I love her very much.  I just like the variety.

A couple of things that I won't do.  I won't ever take time away from my family to see a lady.  That means if my wife is at home, then so am I (or I am showing homes, lol).  My wife is a teacher, so 3 months out of the year, I don't really hobby.  When my wife is teaching or out of town to see relatives/friends, thats when I hobby.  Second, I see ladies with discretionary money.  IE, I take care of my family, our vacations, investments first.  When there is money left over, I will partake.

Bottom line, just because your hubby is seeing other ladies, it doesn't mean he loves you any less.  There may be other issues.  I wouldn't be so quick to divorce.  Find out what is making him tick about this hobby.

Hope this helps

Bond

DO you ever wonder what would happen if your wife found out? I guess we are very naive.  But sometimes, we find out the truth.  Thanks for your honesty.

The tone of this post pretty much blames the women for her man going out on her.  I do not feel that is fair.  The way you have come to interact as a couple over the last 10 years may have lead to it, but without knowing you, I hope you never feel you failed as a woman to keep your man happy.  Bond put a post on here that he loves variety, plain and simple.  I know Bond well and adore him, but I'd say of the married men I have become close to through hobbying, he is more rare.  Maybe if I was in my 20's and looked like a babbie, I'd find more men with his feelings about hobbying.  But more of the married men I see are wanting a companion who laughs at their jokes and still finds them entertaining ... and I have to say, there are a couple of my regs I wish I could grab their wives by the shoulders and shake some sense into them and make them see how much they are hurting a wonderful man with their aloofness.  

Again I say, your husband chose to hobby, not have a full blown afair which may mean he loves his family AND has needs not being fulfilled.  I hope you will do some digging to see if it is variety he wanted, or to feel loved and attractive to someone again.  The latter is fixable IMO.  

-- Modified on 8/11/2007 5:08:30 PM

-- Modified on 8/11/2007 5:11:09 PM

-- Modified on 8/11/2007 5:12:51 PM

I thank you for your opinions.  You have seen many of the same kinds of men.  The problem clearly is....the wives at home have no idea what they want.  They say they are going to work, a business trip, etc., and they never communicate with us.  Then of course the next question is..could he ever stop, or would he ever stop. Thanks for your insite.

Thank you, Longcurlybrunett.  I have been reading the discussions here, not sure why....but it has helped me to gain a different perspective.  The only ones I blame for the situation I am in, are my husband and I.

It helps to read from folks such as yourselves, who are respectful and understanding.  There are some, who are very disrespectful when they mention their SO's, and that is painful to see.  But I do have to admit the majority here do discuss their SO's with respect.  I may not like what they do, I am a firm believer that if you want variety, or want to go outside the marriage and you know your SO does not want this, then before you go outside the marriage, one should end the marriage.  Otherwise you are robbing your spouse of their choice in life to have a monogamous relationship.

Anyhow, thank you for your words about the above poster's post.  When I see words like that it helps restore my faith in humanity, which is pretty much at rock bottom right now.

We only providing service, we dont intent to keep your husbands to ourselves, instead, we are happy to delight them and reduce their pressure of (heavyload) supporting families and the pressure from their careers and society.

I am really happy for them when the married men talk about their happy family, lovely wives, adorable kids. they are faithful to their marriages, they are happy to come back to their families after our session, its like re-charged battery, sometimes like a new battery. anyway, a good married man would care his family more if he can keep his secret. He pays for service, doesnt pay for an affair.

Why he hobby?  longcurlybrunett and WymenLover gave you some farily thoughts especially bond007, gave you a married man's thought. I wont repeat here.

Usually men need more physical activities than women do, I really hope you understand it. I am terribly sorry to hear your heartbreak and I learned that you love him actually, I believe you would support him if he is still your lovely man except your finding out his hobby, therefore, would you treat him as passionately as you did when you fell in love and were crazy about each other before you was busily engaged in family errand that you thought its the only right way to support him?

As long as its only a hobby and wont damage your family finace, as long as he still have your passion on him, make love with you passionately and be a good husband and daddy, If you forgive him, he will feel guity and do better to you and your kids, then you just save a man's life and your family, I dont see anything you will lose.

You still love him, thats why you felt heartbreak. its a hard time to get through but I believe time will heal....

I am only a lady who provide service to gents like other ladies do here. before I did this biz, I found out my ex-bf had a secret email account and I felt the same pain as yours, but later I realized that his fantasy actually helped with his pressure from work like somekinda magic Vitamins.

If you still love him, I think there are some other ways to solve it rather than letting your kids be victim of a divorced family....

Again I am sorry to hear your pain, but do you think your happy neighor family is addition-free zone or their wives dont know about it or, their wives know about it?

-- Modified on 8/11/2007 6:00:26 PM

Great post..  great points....

Ok here is my take, as a single man, who is actually LOOKING for a mate....


Personally, I think that many people out there don't even know what a relationship is all about.

It's about trust and REAL intimacy.  Many if not most couples do not have this.

It takes a lot of work and reflection in order to have a happy and healthy relationship.

I've recently started seeing a counselor, because I never thought it would be so difficult, and also because I want to identify and improve on MY issues.

My eyes really opened up, after just a few sessions.


Also personally speaking, I think that religion has a role in it.

Believe it or not, some of us are christians (just struggling with our flesh)...    

I think it's a big difference between those who believe in God, and those who have a more worldly view.

Without placing any judgments, you have to consider your own, and the other person's outlook on life.

That outlook, will predicate their feelings on things.


For example, some folk will feel like "hey, it isn't hurting anybody" or "hey, it makes things BETTER!".

There are even some couples out there who are swinging!


You really have to sort out these things, and make sure the person you're with, has the same outlook.

I've found out the hard way in the past, that this can really hurt you, because sometimes that other person doesn't INTEND to hurt you - but their actions DO.


Sorry for what you are going through, and my advice is to not be discouraged, and to learn and grow from this!

We all go through some very tough things...

I know this doesn't soothe your pain, but I AM speaking from experience.


take care

As you said "After all, WHY are you even at this site?  Instead of paying for therapy, perhaps you should ask him what his sexual needs are in such a way that he is willing to tell you the truth.  Few men in THIS country feel they can tell their wives the truth."  

That is exactly the problem for married men - not so much that they are having sex with other women (although bad enough in some cases), but that they are deceiving their partners about it.  It is the loss of trust, the inability to share the truth, and the loss of integrity that tears the relationship apart for the married males here.  In essence, too many hobbyists tend to justify the sex through the 'I need variety, etc.' rationale.  But what they ignore and can't rationalize is the dishonesty and decietfulness they impose on their partners.

Personally, I hobby like crazy in the past 12 years since my last divorce.  But when married, I never ventured anywhere near the 'paid sex' paradigm (and fortunately didn't need to).  I personally don't see how a man can decieve his partner or the love of his life, for whatever need or reason, and still think all is OK.

Just my two cents.

-- Modified on 8/11/2007 6:22:15 PM

Pardon me for talking so much, but I agree wholeheartedly with what you have said.

I see a lot of justifications, while ignoring what this is doing to the SO's.  If you want to play, clear your life and play.

I think the worst thing I have heard here is, 'what she don't know, won't hurt her'.  BIG justification for the disrespect that someone shows someone to whom they at one time pledged their love, respect, honor, and faithfulness.

Thank you, once again my humanity meter went up a couple notches.

The depth of the bullshit some of these guys use to excuse the breach of trust with their SOs never ceases to amaze me.  Like you I'm divorced and could never stoop to the level of deceit required to do this if married.  MNSHO

The Love Goddess gives thoughtful, helpful responses.  I would very much like to hear her response to your question.  It will help us all.

Now my response to you, unfaithful2002, is that your husband probably really loves you although he was careless and allowed the mother of his children to get hurt which is inexcusable.  Before you divorce please try counseling.  An otherwise good 10 year marriage is worth saving.  Husband's that don't love their wives have girlfriends not escorts.

I am a single guy, and I have known several very decent married guys on here who I have chastised about not being honest with their wives.  They have almost uniformly responded that they tried to talk  to their wives about their "needs", either sexual or emotional (which weren't what I or almost any of the women I have dated would consider "unrealistic" needs), and were mostly met with a variety of reasons why those needs couldn't be met anymore (too busy with kids, too tired from kids, too tired from work, too busy with school, don't feel attractive anymore, weren't attractive anymore and weren't interested in doing anything about it, lost interest in sex, got enough affection from their dog, etc. etc.).  These men had three choices...either (A), hobby and hide it from their wives, (B), tell their wives they were being forced to consider going elsewhere to get their needs met, or (C), divorce their wives and deal with being alone, alimony, single parenthood, leaving an otherwise successful union, etc.

The seemingly best solution would have been (B), but most women *I* have known would not have taken something like this well, and it wouldn't have been their first impulse to try to fix the union...it would have been a declaration of war and brought up insecurities and defenses that oftentimes are insurmountable.

I am single still (was married very young) partly because I refuse to marry a woman anymore who I don't feel is emotionally secure enough to deal with the rigors of life and having a REAL relationship, but still emotionally available enough to WANT to be vulnerable and involved with someone.  In your 40's, it is harder to find a woman like that than you would think...or, unfortunately, than I would have thought.

If you were happy with this man before you stumbled onto all of this, was it really worth throwing it all away and affecting your children's lives forever without at least confronting (not attacking) him about it and seeing if he had any real desire to change his ways?  I cannot imagine anything in life that is greater than the commitment to someone for life.  However, that goes both ways, and, as such, I cannot imagine ANY single issue that categorically deserves to bring down an entire marriage without trying to reconcile.

Wow. I am really truly sorry for your pain and loss.

Since becoming a provider, (I'm single, but sorta looking for a mate) I have made the decision in my heart that I will accept the fact that any man/woman I might marry will potentially cheat on me. As long as they are safe and come home to me in the end, and still want to be physically intimate with me... well, then that's just life.

I may sound pessimistic, but I am an educated Sociologist, and have studied and thought about these issues for a long time.

Human beings are unique animals. We have this amazing brain, but we are still so driven by our natural instinct. And yes, men usually more so than women when it comes to sex.

Bottom line is this. Perhaps modern society needs to start re-thinking this whole marriage contract idea. Our driven nature to spread the gene pool is rather problematic for the whole thing. And in the end too many people end up hurting. I'm not sure it's worth it.

Thats part of marriage duty. in order to support your family, both of you need to learn what each other want. but, its not easy for men to tell their fantasy since they are afaird that you call them sex-addicted. Try to understand whatever each other's thoughts and accept-not easy anyway.

The business trips... men does have tense mission during their trips, they might book an appointment with some girl but finally had to cancel it since they had to entertain the biz partners or OT, which means their jobs are very important and above their intention of releasing their pressure. Thats where the bread comes from as well as pocket money for hobby.

Everything shoud be based on trust (He ruins your trustfulness sadly) but if you can be open-minded to each other, you have right to check phone bill if its family # not a biz # and he should allow you to.

On the other hand, If he wasnt caught, you would not be troubled as you are now. do you think your family life would change just because he does hobby?

The question about 'could/would he ever stop', the current situation (hobby) may change, may not be predicted. I think if you forgive him, he feels your mercy then may change, actually you would save your family and kids and him, why should he try to make trouble to himself again? unless he dont care your 10yrs family life....

Take care

If you're trying to guilt men straight (which I think is the case) you're dialing the wrong number. You need to go somewhere else for revenge. And I'm not unsympathetic, nor am I married. I hear my married friends talk about their sex lives all the time and how unavailable their wives are, and I understand why married guys are here. There's a price guys pay for this business, just like there's a price frigid wives pay for their unavailablity, too.

Sounds to me like she is looking for answers.  If she or I was seeking revenge, I believe there is enough here to exact that revenge.  Say, take out a full page ad in the Sunday paper with all their reviews.  Honestly I have thought about it, but if you listen to the lady, revenge is not on her mind, nor mine.

And I am curious as to why you assume that your friends wives are "unavailable", maybe your friends are just very hard to live with.  There are two to make a marriage, and two to create trouble in the marriage.

Over the past 4-5 years I have seen more than my share of puzzles.  Lady, get in line for understanding.  Your kids are better off with divorced parents who love them, rather than two parents who are not getting along.  Something in your marriage was amiss.  

Mine was a marriage of 10 years.  She cheated on me, but perhaps I drove her to it.  but ours was not the worst puzzle I have seen.

I know of another marriage where the husband is a "stay at home dad" but does nothing.  The wife comes home from 10 hour work days only to have to cook dinner, clean house and work with 2 teenage sons on their homework and after school activities... the dad?  does nothing...  and he wonders why she wants a divorce?

And in another case... look at the suicide rate of young people in this country.

Lady, all are much better off with the divorce.  But the answers you seek are not here, they are within you.  I am the husband who worked through the heartache - I weep no more for the marriage... but I do weep about other things...

This post will solve no-ones ills, least of all, yours!

As you can tell I've no mercy for those who come here claiming that this "addiction" was the "Cause" of the failure of their marriage... much as my ex's philandering was the "Cause"
of my failed marriage.... a symptom - yes, the cause?  no!

-- Modified on 8/11/2007 9:08:51 PM

is that I was in a very bad marriage.  I often thought of how my life would end.  I never cheated... and had my ex not asked for a divorce - I can only imagine where I would be now... 4 more years of torture, of snide sarcastic remarks, of public humiliation by her.  now?  I often save her from issues with the kids - all her kids - the step-kids, my kids and "his kids"!  

Mr. SD - I wish that I had discovered hobbying as it now exists prior to my marriage.  I think I would have had a better perspective "on" marriage.  Would I remarry?  that is a question that my kids have repeatedly asked.

The answer is that I was not looking to get married the first time!  and for the most part, I do miss marriage.... but not the woman I was married to.... so would I remarry?  Maybe - but it would be a very different marriage.

contract - and both have obligations and responsibilities.  when one partner fails to provide, the aggrieved party will seek to remedy.

do you even begin to comprehend that your very language prevents your hubby from speaking with you on very sensative issues.  For my part- my ex got to the point of telling me that every thing I did was done poorly or wrong.  I retreated and did not have sex with her - rather entertained a fantasy sex life in my mind.  (she wondered if I had ED - but she would check my AM erections.. and knew that was not the case- don't forget she is a physician)....  

Why?  and here unfaithful - pay attention cause this is important... I retreated because the very essence of being a man (no matter what is taught - this is hardwired) is the ability to have sex.  Were I to engage in sex and have her criticize that too, would be really too much.  It would be my last refuge within the marriage of my worth as a partner.  so I just withdrew.

so now my little secret is out!  but what is yours.

-- Modified on 8/11/2007 9:44:35 PM

Well said Bizz.  

You are crying every night unfaithful2002? Well sorry I'm not more empathetic, but cry me a river...and then get up and REJOICE in your newfound freedom....and in his.  Your kids are better off with happily divorced grown-ups maturely guiding their growth than they are with unhappily-wed immature narcissists feeding them unrealistic pablum.

Take the blinders off and face being honest with him, with your kids, and with yourself about what you really had together.  Infidelity and cheating are NOT about having sex with someone else, but rather: "Infidelity and cheating are a betrayal of the expectations you have of your partner. "

 Sorry to be blunt, but you (and your kids) are all better off getting through and getting on with your lives than wallowing in the loss of an unsustainable illusion.  The real world is much harder, much tougher, and also more rewarding.  

I hope for all of your sakes that the transition to better times comes with as little pain and destruction as possible.

 Best Wishes, DH

cause I took the vows seriously, but when the wife prohibits open and honest discussions, well, that is what drives men to either an inversion or extraversion and neither helps the marriage.  I am not saying that I am blameless, but rather that it took both of our bad and childish behavior to kill the love between us.

Seriously, to all the wives in here, think about how you communicate with your spouse... do you block communication such that you get only what you wish to hear?

Thank you for your honesty, you have given me some good insight tonight.

I am sorry that you were always put down, I know how that feels, and it makes sense and may explain why I had withdrawn.

I have always been forthright and honest with him, telling him he can always tell me anything and everything, after all without open and honest communication, you can have no relationship.  I have never tried to block his communication with me, I have always held the door open, and am not critical, but merely offer an ear and my thoughts.

He has never wanted to open up, I believe it is learned behavior from a rough childhood and a father who taught his kids that discussing personal matters was for sissies.

Again, thank you for your honesty.  Again, you may think I am a total nutball for being here in the first place, but we are trying to work on our marriage, and gaining this different perspective does help.

To be quite honeset, she would be pissed at me for spending money on the ladies.  Not so much as to having sex.  But spending money to do it.  

Bond

Wow Bob, way to lay the blame all on one person. Especially for a marriage that you (none of us here) have zero insight into.

No one among us knows the quality or nature of the marriage in question here. But I will say this. When I see men, either on this board, or face to face, who tell me how empty their marriage has become, I take it with a grain of salt. Rarely are situations so cut and dried that the fault lies only with one person. It generally takes two to build a relationship, and although it only needs one to tear it down, more often both parties have responsibility for its demise.

A little bit of sympathy would not be out of place here, but if you can't manage that, then perhaps at the least pouring gasoline on a fire isn't necessary either.

Aside from the fact that I was asking some things directly to the woman who started this thread, I have no regrets for chastising married people I have known in this hobby...PRECISELY for the reasons you illustrated so well with your own marital history.  You should have gotten divorced long before it would have ever come to seeing escorts.

I know one man, and he knows who he is, who is married and who I can understand why he is here.  The others, I don't judge them, and it has nothing to do with my being friends with them, but they know I don't share their views on marital vows.  I chastised them because they are my friends and I care about them.  I didn't say I harass them.

Not sure what your overall point was here, but I agree with you on one thing...the hobby is usefue to the single man.  I am not as eager to make compromises just to be able to be intimate with a woman I am interested in because I know that there is always the hobby.  I think this actually is better for both myself and my potential partner, because I go into the relationship more honestly.  Unfortunately, it has shown me just how few people really value honesty in a relationship.

Good luck to you.

i've only been in love twice and both times i didnt even notice that other men existed and had zero desire to sleep with another man.... i've heard a few women say the same thing so its hard for us to understand how a guy can love us and still want to sleep with other women....

fact is they do.
you cannot stop him from wanting other women.
men want variety. all men want it.. married or not.  some are strong enough to suppress that desire, some arent but the question is why do we ask them to suppress their desires ?

if you love him, you want him to be happy.

so make him happy. or leave him.

personally, i plan to hire escorts for the next man i fall in love with... because i know for a fact that the pleasurable activity really doesnt mean anything to the guy.... so he can be a dog, i'll hold the leash and who knows, i might just have some fun with it and decide to join in.  

sex isnt cheating, lying is cheating.

you ever been in a threesome sweet muffin thang ?
i dont think you're a nutball i think you're just a bit curious.

Every once in a while it is nice to be remined of why we hobby.  Sometimes we fixate on our own wives, but hearing about another's ball and chain is reassuring.  Every time I hear about a snoopy wife or a woman threatening to take half of everything a man owns, that's more proof where none is needed.  This hobby of charity and donations has nothing to fear and everything to thank from our brides.

I'm sure your next husband will be better for you.  And if not, you can probably find another one after that.  My advice is to cut out the middle man that issues your wedding licenses and just start posting your menu here.  Its a lot of fun and you can still be married on the side, if you want.  And you will have the satifaction of awarding that white envelope of cash to whomever you want to give it too.

It really is too bad that you retreated and chose not to have sex with your wife-now ex-wife.  I find it truly had to believe that your wife would criticize sex with you.  That would be cruel.  Instead, I think that is they way you perceived what her reaction would be, and withdrew.  My "secret" is not criticing sex.  I am now understanding his needs were not being met, as I guess yours were not.  Does your ex-wife even know now the reason for your alleged ED?  My husband and I still had an active sex life......just not as active as he must have needed.  Obviously many other men are in this same situation.  Maybe some of you are on here reading this.  If you tried harder to communicate with us about your needs, and yes this will take courage, maybe you will feel happier about yourselves.  My husband is speaking to a therapist now and is feeling better.  He still isn't ready to admit everything to me.  He said he never saw any of these women, only contacted them via email and phone calls.  I think it will take time for him to have the courage to admit to me what he has done.  We tried one marriage counselor, but she pushed him to hard for the truth, and gave her nothing.  I am now at the point that maybe if he can admit to me all that he has done, we can process all the problems and try to move forward.  Again he is too afraid. I never expected to see all of these responses.  It is helping me to hear from all of you.  Thank you.

Thanks for the suggestion, and that white envelope would definitely be rewarding, but I am going to focus my energies on my existing family.  Thanks for putting a smile on my face.

It's like getting a speeding ticket

You: Oh Officer I never speed
Officer: What you MEAN is, you have never been CAUGHT!

I think it's very hard, maybe impossible, for most women to truly understand that most men want to mate with EVERY attractive female they see. That is a very strong urge to suppress continually.

Also, some men are emotionally stunted, maybe most men are, and want only their physical needs met by women. These men often look to other emotionally shallow men for emotional companionship.

As for your husband, no one on this board can offer much insight. Is he an individual or just part of the group, "Men"? Individuals do things for individual reasons.

“So we have 2 children who will now be raised by divorced parents”
  (unfaithful2002)

 It seems your husband has more concern about the kids being raised by the more fulfilling TWO parent household than YOU do.
Your husband obviously feeling a void in your relationship and intimacy found an alternative prescription that did NOT entail taking from whatever intimacy/bond you two still have and committing it to another relationship that historically has proven to demand always further commitment.

YOU unfaithful2002; rather than seeking reasons and answers to his ‘physical’ infidelity along with your relationship’s short comings feel justified in your righteous indignation to destroy the very things you purport as so sacred and important.

If your babies are SOOOOO important; maybe you shouldn’t throw them out with the bath water.    


-- Modified on 8/12/2007 7:42:48 AM

your quest for taking over the world... but then again - that is what all poli sci grads want to do! lol!!  GREAT web site.  Made me laugh.

I feel I need to reply to you.  The problem was a lot more than his infidelity.  When he started seeking out other woman, using our money toward his unethical (in my opinion) behavior, he checked out on us.  He wasn't around for the children as much as he could have been, instead he sought comfort/pleasure with other women.  I think the perception of the two parent household would be desired, but with an absentee father, aren't they better off with two individual parents who can co-exist separately, but be happier & healthier for the children.  When that "void in your relationship"  occurs, as it often does for both partners, shoulnd't you address it with each other, and not go outside the relationship? My "righteous indignation" is not what destroyed us.  His inability to be forthcoming with me did.  And yes my babies are soooo important.  Watching mommy & daddy fight is not healthy.  We actually are in counseling together.  We went once but he didn't like the therapist, because she wanted him to "come clean".  He is just not ready yet. It is very insiteful for me to hear the opinions of other men.  A lot of men really have a very differnt perspective on what constitutes cheating.

I just don't chastise others for visiting them - no point and I'm not in their shoes and cannot know their reasons.  Views on marital vows? the dudes that I have problems with are the ones who scam civies - with promises they have no intentions of keeping - just to get layed.  

Seriously, towards the end of the marriage - I frequently pictured myself dead.  That is what some dudes get to.  Some wives just have no concept of what they do to their partner.

thanks.  that was sweet of you to say and i love hearing it.


and dont worry about my pinky, i got a way of wrapping men around it.

OK, let see if I understand.  He is a good and responsible provider, puts a roof over your family's heads, provides vehicles, puts food on the table, pays the bills, provides medical care, doesn't abuse you or the kids mentally or physically, makes you feel safe, plans for retirement, has a good job, is responsible and reliable and stable, is there for you when you need him to do most anything.  He is not a drunk and is well thought of in the community and your kids think he is pretty swell.  Did I miss anything?

I know what happened by virtue of what you wrote as well as what you didn't write.  You are asking what happened, but you have not asked the toughest question of all....what did I do that may have contributed to him straying.  Moreover, when you get to the point you ask that question, the real question is are you willing and open to hear the answer and accept the answer.  I suggest you are not there yet  My X was not open to really listening to the reason until AFTER the divorce, then she stated she wished she had stayed and worked it out.  It was at that point I knew she was willing to accept some responsibility for what happened.

I'll bet I know the timeline.  Courtship was great, had lots of fun, laughed a lot, talked a lot, got a along great, had sex anytime we wanted and did everything together.  Then you got married.  That went well also.  Found a place to live, set up house and got everything in place to have that happy life we were raised to expect and hope for.  Then, one day the kids come along.  Oops!  You then forget about everything else and POUR all of your energies into the kids.  You forget about that very special person...you forget about your mate, you forget about all the fun things you did together, you forget everything else except the kids.

Then there is work things, church things, community things, home making things and any other THING to can come up with to keep you busy.

Then your husbands tries to communicate to you that all these other THINGS are going on.  What do you do first?  You go into denial, you blow him off, you do NOT give any serious consideration to his viewpoint at all.  You continue going on pouring all your energies into those other THINGS like they are the only thing that matters.  And then you wonder why he strays.

Guys are wired to be a provider.  They want to find a mate, set up house, go to work to provide and want to come home to the house they are providing and the wife they married.  They want the comfort and security of knowing that stuff is there.  They also want a little appreciation.  When they can come home and find all their mental and physical needs attended to, most of them are happy and content and do NOT stray.  

In my case, I was totally content at home until my wife was no longer available, both mentally and physically.  You want to know the answer?

YOU forgot about HIM! and didn't understand HIM and his needs!...and it went downhill from there!

Now, you are probably all upset and in denial mode.  Consider this:

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0306/24/ltm.06.html

And if you are still open to understanding and maybe fixing your marriage, try reading this book:

"The Sex Starved Marriage," by Michelle Davis

This book has fixed and saved a lot of marriages because of the insights and understanding it reveals!

OK Unfaithful2002, am I wrong??

Really appreciate your thoughtful and playful perspective.  Well done!

-- DH

PS: I have nominated you for the "Best Attitude in the Nude" Award!

Dr. Laura really has the answers to these questions in all of her books...At least they were the answers i needed to understand why i have this ( addiction ) so to speak.... One day marriage certificates will be written in  ink that becomes invisibe after 5 years, perhaps women will take a different approach and men as well. One thing is for sure we only live once, and in my case im not ever going to beg for sex or attention again, i would rather pay for it....

Dude, give it a rest!  I am not looking to trumpet how I don't ever chastise any of my friends.  When you care about people, and see them having "risky behavior", my definition of friend is to talk to them about it, just like they chastise me if I do something "risky".  And I didn't say you WERE seeing escorts before you got divorced, I said that you should should have gotten divorced long before it would have ever COME TO seeing escorts, which was basically agreeing with you...that your marriage should have ended sooner, or perhaps not been at all.

I was trying to ask a question of unfaithful2002, and you went off on this tangent because I said I chastised (but not harassed) my married friends from here about seeing escorts and hiding it, when the point I was trying to make was actually defending my friends' actions.  I know you have personal history with this issue, but let it go, m'kay?  You've taken a tiny part of my post and made a sidebar out of it.

Everyone has their own story on why they cheat or why the seek the company of Escorts. I'm sure it is a story that they use (me included) for lots of things we do. Usually that story is something that started when we were young and it leaves us living a life letting "just who we are" control our actions.

Can he stop or what it means are up to you both. He needs to take ownership for his actions... EVERYTHING! at least then he is in control of what he gets and what he loses. Then you need to take ownership of your life too... I am not making blame on anyone, just pointing out that how our lives turn out is up to us.

If my wife were cheating I'd ask... What kind of man am I being that has a wife that cheats? Then either accept it or not. But at least then I have the control to make possible something different.

anyway... I'm sorry for your pain. I wish it hadn't happened. good luck with your work as it will be the hardest climb out of the shit you may have to go through.

Stand in a place of responsibility and then create the possibility of a life worthy of your life.

He has not owned up to everything yet.  I think it will take him time to own up to what he has done.  He  has admitted to what he got caught with.  I found the emails and found many the phone numbers in his blackberry.  He is saying that he does not remember if he called them.  I keep telling him he needs to be honest so we can both move forward.  Then I said if you can't remember who you called, lets check the phone bill. Won't do that because he needs to take control of his life and not give me everything I ask for.  We went to couples counseling once, and he disagreed with giving me phone records, so now it is up to him.  I said he could pick another counselor, who will ultimately say the  same, and again he just needs to admit what he did. He says he wants to earn my trust back, however hiding phone records is not the way to do it.  
You talked about your wife cheating, but are you cheating on her?  You sound as if you are in control of what you are doing.  How do you think your wife would feel?

I agree with you.  This "addiction" was his inability to be a man and stand up to his wife if he had problems.  Unfortunately, the result of this addiction will be divorce.  I agree the children will be better off with two happier adults...in the long run.  They are 7 and 4.  Now they will have  a very hard time with it.  I am glad you are over weeping for your marriage.  My marriage was nearly 10 years. It really feels like a death. But I had no warning.  I found the emails 3 weeks ago.  Before that, he never, ever let on he had any problems.  Just not fair!!! Any man reading this....just talk to your wives, it would be much better than this.

I fit the later profile and have known my wife for more than 20 years and we have been married for 15. She is going through a tough time now and the only way I can continue is to get an occasional chance to be with a woman who at least gives the appearance of appreciating time with me. I know this isn't a forum for counseling but consider the alternatives and look within yourself for answers as well.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned a fact of life in many marriages, and that is, after many years of raising children, sex with the same person, menopause, job concerns, diverging interests, and monogamous marriage the fires may have become banked or burned out.  Yet partners can still love each other, find warmth and companionship, and want to stay married.  
An additional reason that I can document from personal experience is that hobbying can be excellent for one's health.  A couple of years ago I developed high blood pressure and take medication.  It works.  But after a good session, my BP is fantastic, and I'm also much more companionable with my wife.  Incidentally, I have the same result from a non sexual therapeutic massage with a professional masseuse, but I do prefer a FBSM. FS is even more therapeutic.  I presented the results of my self-taking BP to my doc, who said, "this is fantastic -- whatever you're doing, keep doing it."  If he only knew, he might not say that, but the results speak for themselves.  Maybe women who have affairs have similar results, but I've avoided affairs myself because an unhappy and destructive result seems almost inevitable, but hobbying is different.

Dear unfaithful2002, if he owned up and took the position that each of you could occasionally sleep with other people, would that be OK?  I know people who come to these understandings.  They have rules like, "never in our bed", "never overnight", "always use protection".  Many humans are really not naturally monogamous.  Now if someone is taking money or time that the spouse and family needs that is another situation entirely which has nothing to do with infidelity.  It could more easily be golf or boats rather than sex with another person.  Maybe that is the real issue here.  Sex with your spouse is for love.  Sex with someone else is recreation.  Love sex is 1000 times better.

Personally I have endured 15 years of hard work and disappointment with my partner and though I have expressed my needs and dreams with her, been to counseling 3 times with glimmers of renewal I'm left with 2 options, an expensive divorce with lost of emotion worth and treasure or try to reconcile once again and be let down again.  My hope is that this diversion in our relationship may pass in the near future. But for my own sanity and to be happy for a while I feel it is justified.

Wow showmekid..............my thoughts exactly!

Another good read- "The Proper Care&Feeding of Husbands" by Laura Schlessinger.

I know she is a bit ( ok more then a bit)conservative,but she does make some good points.  

Just an FYI I have some married clients,but most of my clients are single,divorced or couples.
My couples are all happy and love each other very much. Sometimes they just like to add some spice to their lives

Also just because someone is a therapist,  doesn't mean that person is fit for your husband to see.
If you want therapy to work, you need to find a therapist that both of you feel comfortable with.
It is also a good idea for each of you to have separate sessions.

All the best to you.

-- Modified on 8/12/2007 1:52:39 PM

I have been through what you have been through unfaithful 2002, but let me tell you, they never seem to come clean with the facts.  All I can say is that I would love to here the responses if it were women using family cash to get a little flavor.  Jesus, do you think that women don't get bored with the same old guy???  We may just be more evolved perhaps?  
    I have been in marriage for 12 years and we are working on the infidelity he has accoplished behind my back, but to be honest the trust is gone, so I don't know.  He was my best friend and it did come out of left field.  We were having great sex and a great friendship. So what's the answer?

"...A lot of men really have a very differnt perspective on what constitutes cheating..."

A lot of times when intimate time is needed, the "not now" and "not in the mood" really cheats the male of his & her "happy times". Rather than wait for the right mood (which who knows WHEN that might be), the occasional escort is the quick fix to the problem. It sounds selfish, but at the same time no hassle "sex".

That might seem like "cheating" in your book, but most guys feel cheated the same way when the other end is seldom in the mood.

Hank

Wow, while I agree that it is smart to reflect on yourself to see what role you might have played in things, I must say that I strongly disagree with these notions that something such as this is justified in ANY way.

A relationship is based first and foremost on honesty and trust.

Once you do something DISHONEST, you break the trust and the very basis of the relationship.

THAT is what he did, when he first decided to venture in this direction.

HE must take responsibility for that - not her!!


Now SHE can take responsibility for her role (whatever that might be, or not be), but she CANNOT take responsibility for this action that HE has taken.

That is not fair.


IF she sees something in herself or her actions, that she might change or correct, that might have a huge impact, then yeah, go ahead and give that a try.......

but no matter what, you cannot break the bounds of trust in a relationship, and go behind your partner's back.


I don't care if a person has SEX or not - that is besides the point.

It's all about addressing an issue.

You do NOT address issues by being subversive.

you know will maintain an "Even Strain"!  Whether or not truth will fracture your marriage - I cannot predict - but truth has a way of being less of a burden to bear over time, that does falsehoods and pretenses.

a Sincere good luck to you.

We went to couples counseling, and she to individual counseling.  She had a lot of issues to work out over her parents.  Her dad is ok, but a bit difficult to be with.... her mom is a total witch.  Would come to my home, and stir up trouble... just to watch the fireworks.  Tried to tap my mom for money, and always would find an excuse to pay left handed complements....

Cheat?  In control?  when I married I had about $100k in savings (outside of 401k).  When We divorced that was gone... and we (combined income of over 300 K per year were in debt at about the 100K level.  So tell me about it!  She spent every dime in sight and during the proceedings wished to tap into the kids college fund.  Tell me about in control.... really - wrong person to cry to.... although I wish you well, you need to take total and honest inventory of the marriage...

If you take anything away from this thread - that is the value - you may not like what you ultimately see when you do the examination, but that would be better than the fantasy that all men are bad, he is at fault, I did nothing, and all I have to do is.... mentality that you seem to now be living in.

An individual counselor may be able to help with this.... one did my wife - and while I did not like the woman - we are ALL better off for the advice she gave... myself included...

Again, good luck, but take off the rose colored glasses....  things do not "just happen"!

I commend you in your seeking answers as you have here rather than literary scatological debasement of one and all participants here.

 In regards to family counseling; perhaps your husband would feel 'safer' with a male therapist. Millenniums of cohabitation with each other; and still a strong "Us against Them" exists equally between the sexes.

You appear as both an educated as well as emotionally stable person Unfaithful2002, and your husband seems to be for the most part a good man, provider and stable also. Many good, stable, dutiful husbands are unfortunately NOT the epitome of communication skills. You may have missed his attempt to communicate his "needs" some time back, and when you did he did as "men" are hard-wired to do; He 'fixed' the problem to the best of his ability.

It is no hyperbole to say that American culture is "puritanical". Many modern industrialized cultures consider a man having a mistress or a girlfriend "normal".
What constitutes "cheating" is a leitmotif as individual, varied, and old as mankind itself.
   

 





-- Modified on 8/12/2007 4:38:11 PM

Ma’am, I am single guy because I do not want to do to my wife what has happened to you. Any tender words or sorrowfulness will only beguile the truth.

I met a girl in college when I was nineteen and she was eighteen. Last month we celebrated her 40th birthday together. Her dark hair has turned prematurely gray, and her face has wrinkle or two and she has become prettier and lovelier.  As time matures for me, I slowly realize that it is not her physical attractiveness that makes her beautiful to me but how she makes me feel. No woman is prettier than she is, and I love her.  Yet when the subject of marriage was mentioned, I avoided the conversation. I’m not ready to give up my silver spurs.

Why I am not able to ride into the sunset with her well, the only excuse I have is that there is a fear. Yes, most likely it is a matter of insecurity; it is what it is. There is a fear of living a dull and prosaic life. There is also a fear of not measuring up and being emotionally vulnerable. It’s much easier to romance and dance go to greener pastures, than having to please someone everyday. I admire those who do, but I am not one of those who can dance with one partner, yet.  

I’ll be leaving my college sweetheart later this year for a project overseas and I can’t wait. In the construction field, in which I work, I have seen spurned women, come into my office asking me to me garnish her ex-husband’s wages. In my work, we have guys who are divorced or cheating on their wives or running away from something.  

The men I am with, we want to roam, rumble and build. Competing is in our blood; it’s who we are. Competing can come in many forms; on the battlefield, workplace or dance floors. Most men are not honest with themselves or their loved ones.  Simple pleasures such as sharing the Sunday Newspaper over coffee is not enough for us. I pray that someday they will be, for me. Most women want men who will nest with them, but the truth of the matter is for myself, that nest is a cage.

Those that attempt to breakout of their cage and are caught; are not sorry for having cheated, they are sorry for being caught. When they finish their stories I call home office to officially garnish their wages.


-- Modified on 8/13/2007 12:24:08 AM

how long and how hard did you try to get your wife to lose some of her inhibitions?  Did you two go to therapy if she didn't open up after your talking to her about it and telling her exactly how important it was to you?

On the face of it you make good sense...after all the human brain consists mainly of primordial instincts and only 'bout 15% intellect.Also keep in mind that one of the biblical injunctions "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's spouse", while clearly counter to the gene pool spreading principle, it has laid the foundation for our western structure of family life! Imagine the resulting social chaos if your ideas were implemented, not to mention questions of who supports the children in a broken marriage and what it entails for the kids' upbringing.As long as humans are ruled by instincts, I believe it would be better to preserve the present structure with all its' flaws. After all, the number of husbands caught is a trifle compared to those not caught! Just my .02 cents

It is nice to hear that some men actually understand the contract of marriage.  Will you ever marry again?

I am glad to see you treating your wife with respect, and glad to see you love and adore her.  And I know this is going to sound nagging, but I don't really mean it as such.  But this is one thing I mentioned to my husband, and it caught him like a deer in the headlights, and it scared him, it was something he had not thought of.

I told him that the reason I was so hurt and angry, was really not the sex part.  It was how violated I felt.   I asked him if he understood, that while he was having sex with other women....that he brought that home to me, in all reality I (unbeknownst to me) was sleeping with those other women too.

I know everyone here is very careful about std's etc, and I am thankful to that.  BUT it does happen.  And all the showers, mouthwash etc in the world does not get rid of it all.

I told him, HE made the choice to have sex with others....but at the same time he made a choice for ME to be exposed too.  He was in essence literally putting my health and life at risk with his choice.  And I had absolutely nothing to say about it.

Just food for thought......

And while I am at it, I would just like to say, I find this all very refreshing.  We should all really kind of despise each other...but most of us here on all different sides of the fence have been able to have a really good discussion with open minds.

I actually was very nervous to put my message up on this website. I didn't know if I would even get a response. I am exactly who I say I am...  I have been very hurt and deceived by my husband.  It does help me in many ways to hear all of these responses.  The fact that they are from other men, other wives and the actual escorts....gives me lots of diffeent perspectives.  As for you, you kinda sound like my husband.  I am sure your wife has no idea.  HOWEVER....maybe, just maybe you should try to slowly bring her into your world.  You say she is "much more inhibited and sexually conservative " than you are...but wouldn't you even enjoy all of this even more if it was with her? I guess that is still me being naive and hurt.  Just think about what would happen if you got caught.  Such a fluke that I found the emails.  I had to research something for my job, and went on his outlook account.  Again, I am blown away by all of the responses.  I only posted this yesterday.  It has all been so eye opening.  It amazes me that over 700 people have read this post.  I wish you the best....and please be careful as health is also a big factor.  Condoms do break...........

Well put.  "Those that attempt to breakout of their cage and are caught; are not sorry for having cheated, they are sorry for being caught."  I like that line and will definitely use it.  As for you, you were honest about marriage.  I give you all the credit in the world.

Okay, my response.  If I forgot about him.....why,why didn't he try harder.  And we were having sex. I guess just not enough....and he should have really come to me.  We were pretty crazy when we first met, as with most couples...but he wasn't the only one to initiate. We both did. It wasn't as frequent I guess as he wanted, but  took it as him just not being as interested.  I never thought to look any deeper. Live and learn.  I am not denying...I anm hurt he looked elsewhere....I  read the CNN article. Very interesting.

all the same.  Women who marry men need to understand - marriage is a two way partnership, almost NOTHING happens exclusively due to one partner's failure.  Nothing.  

Again, thanks....

Well, as you say - construction workers... and where I grew up - roustabouts.  Well said.

cost me my marriage through hobbying even tho we went through counselling. We ar still working on it but I doubt it will ever work out despite that I still have strong feelings for her.

I do it because my wife doesnt want to do the things that my provider does. She doesnt really like sex all that much. So I figure I am doing her a favor. Let me ask you this does your husband love you and the kids any less?
I am not being mean just thinking you should ask yourself that question

-- Modified on 8/12/2007 8:31:45 PM

And, assuming that you really did try to resolve it before seeing a therapist (and there ARE good ones...for those who really DO want to change), why, after it was obvious that things wouldn't change and you would have to lie to your "soulmate" and break your marital vows, did you stay together?  Was it "for the kids"?  Or was it because it suited YOUR other needs?  It couldn't be for her, because if she knew you were an adulterer, she would be crushed, right?

I am not chastising you...I am playing devil's advocate and trying to get information out there.

and I for one am still puzzled as to why her hubby left her!  She is a very smart lady, very sexy, and has the bod of someone half her age!  When I am with her, although I do complement her, there is no need - we've walked into restaurants and the waitstaff has told her she is georgous!  As far as fun in bed, she is!  

But the main reason I enjoy being with her is that she is able to transcend the ordinary, and make the day seem special.  

As I say, some women come to this in this manner and they find the hobby liberating.  I should mention that she is not the only "ex" I know - a couple of pornstars I know also came this way to become escorts... oh, and least you think - well sure - they don't have kids.... they do... in fact most of the providers I enjoy have kids... they do understand all the pressures.. and "stuff" that goes with being either a single or part time parent.  

Again, consider the audience here.

As you yourself admit - you ain't "been there, done that" so do not judge.  During my marriage, my thoughts were much darker than just divorce.  

Divorce probably saved my life.  I wish that I had considered hobbying.  Solace in a sea of desperation would have been met with gratitude.  I hobby now simply because I do not wish to get serious.

Geez, what IS it with you and my posts to other people on this thread?

I specifically said in my post that I was PLAYING DEVILS ADVOCATE, primarily because I was trying to take what I ASSUMED would be unfaithful2002's position (which, judging by her response to DayDreamin's post, I think I pretty much nailed) to try to get more information and other views out there, and because his response to my post was brief and, IMO, a bit dismissive (as I have known therapists and MFCC's myself who do good work, as well as couples who have been helped by it).

If I was really "judging" him, I would have been one hell of a lot more direct.  Just because I haven't done the exact same things under the exact same circumstances doesn't mean I am not qualified to understand or make observations...and you don't know anything about MY marital history, now do you?  

Thank you for again sidetracking my question to others with stuff that is relative to YOUR personal experiences.

You sound pretty harsh, hon. Again, your marriage is different from this lady's relationship. You were obviously hurt and always mention that it's the woman's fault on TER (which is very annoying and untrue). Try to be a bit more sympathetic and -- mostly -- be patient and objective about other people's positions on things. Everyone has a different story.

However, I know why your marriage ended and I feel very sad that your wife did that to you. I have seen it happen with women who are very strong and independent. If they get bored or find something disturbing about their partner, they start pussy-whipping the crap out of their men, and then men eventually retreat like battered housewives. And yes, this is a demeaning thing for men also, but remember women have been suffering through this for thousands of years. Well, Bizzaro, now you have first-hand experience on how battered women feel: stuck in a relationship, especially if they aren't working, and have children. It's horrific, and I do volunteer work to help these women! Verbal abuse is just as bad as physical abuse sometimes.

Usually, the first sign for women that something is truly wrong in a relationship (or they really are just tired from working and raising kids) is refraining from sex. They lose interest in their husbands, but the husbands are also partially to blame for their loss of interest. There are many reasons: hormonal problems, not feeling the husband is romantic enough, no communication between the sheets, or just not turned on by them anymore. It's very hard (just like for men) for a woman to say, "Honey, you're getting fat and acting stupid. I'm not turned on to you anymore."  Then there's what I like to call the country-bumkin phoenomena: The wife approaches her husband in a sexy nightie and he is drinking a beer and telling her to step away from the baseball game. Some men really are idiots and the women (although they shouldn't) bash them because they're just plain sick of them. Some have mentioned to me that they find their men so condescending and repulsive that they just want to take a baseball bat and bash their heads in. Yikes! A perfect example of this scenario is the movie, "War of the Roses."  It's a very dark comedy about what happens to a very happy couple who are in love and how they change over the years. That's when you know you've gone too far past the "let's try the counseling part," and it's sad. No one should have to bash anyone, physically or mentally.

You know, Bizzaro, at one time your wife obviously was very attracted to and you to her. You told me some things (which I won't repeat) that you were obviously in a stalemate, etc., and your wife got tired of it. After that, she might have lost respect for you or suddenly went through menopause and her life changed too. So, after those things, people can actually start a love/hate relationship, and she probably started to take her own unhappiness out on you. It's a shame but it happens.  Soon afterward, she possibly found you condescending and irritating. Hey! A guy could be the nicest guy in the world but if he patronizes me and treats me like an idiot (especially while wearing a smart-ass grin), I'll probably want to club him with a bat, too. I know I could never be married to someone who believes his intelligence is above me and uses sarcasim to mask him real feelings about me. Whether it's financial responsibilities, depression, change in attitude, etc., many things can bring on depression and a lack of self worth, and a partner's personality that the spouse once found attractive does not anymore (and vice versus). I know I had that happen with my first and only husband. I was extremely young, but I truly lost interest in what he had become and I was more aggressive and wanted to get ahead, and I starting to actually view him as an uncaring idiot. I got repulsed when he even tried to touch me. and believe me I was not a mean lady and I had a high sex drive. However, women notice it first, whereas men can have a fight and still have sex. We're different types of creatures, and I truly thought he was acting like an idiot and there's no way I'm having sex with a thoughtless idiot. I knew the best thing was to get out of the relationship before we had children, and I also wanted to maintain some type of a friendly atmosphere for both of us and gain some of the respect I had for him early on, because he was a fairly descent guy (and I was a very nice girl). But -- luckily -- I got out in time before the humiliation started. To this day, I am nice to him and he is a jerk to me. Go figure! Men take divorce so much harder years later than women who try to put it in the past and move on with their lives. So, even though you may have had a bad experience, Bizzaro, there are so many other circumstances that place different people in different situations. Like you said, Bizzaro, both people need to be honest with one another, but that doesn't mean one person will change to appease the other. Maybe if you would have stopped being condescending (which you know you can be), and perhaps she could have stopped being so bossy, then you and your ex might have worked it out. Unfortunately, you gave in to save peace, and she probably just got frustrated because she couldn't communicate with you on her level (which doesn't make her level correct). Now, I've in some way defended both men and women, so don't read into it wrong (like you do sometimes).

There are certain people that are just not meant to be together. I truly believe that. No matter how much you try to communicate with them, there will always be one person not willing to say he/she is sorry or take responsibility. And -- even if they do -- they don't continue to follow through with good behavior or counseling. It's a daily battle to hold a good marriage together. It takes two to tango, and there are those people who are very insecure that need apologies for everything. Geez! That can be overwhelming, too. I'd hate to see them working in the stock markets.

Ms. Broken-hearted housewife:  Please find the root of your husband's problem (if you think it's worth it). Be honest with yourself, too. If this man just wants diversity, then he's never going to be satisfied with you in the bed alone. He will always bring some thoughts or perfume home to you. If you know he loves you and the best policy for you is to not know what he's doing and you can live with that, then do it. However, the question is: Can you live with that choice? Are you giving into something just for the sake of holding the marriage together? But, for Heaven's sake, don't live with anything that makes you really uncomfortable. I lived for a person before and gave up things I enjoyed to fill his life. I'll never to do it again -- not for anyone! You'll both end up in divorce court anyway and you'll hate all men for it. Take some serious time to think about what you really want. Take a trip with some single girlfriends and get a perspective on their lives as single women. You know what they say, "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence," but it may not always accurate for your life. So, check it out but remember, "is always greener on the other side" applies to everyone.

Hugs & peace,
Ciara

-- Modified on 8/12/2007 10:47:44 PM

-- Modified on 8/12/2007 11:27:53 PM

First, how painful, upsetting and trust killing. Bottom line is that people don't like to be lied to. I am very sorry you are having to go through this.
Second, I call this thing testosterone toxicity. Guys are hardwired to want to lay a variety of women repeatedly. Civilization helps control that drive but it is a weak force.
A defintion of love that I like a lot is "When the other person is perfectly fine with you just they way they are." Then people change and the acceptance that definition requires can erode away. to keep it menas the other person can't grow. No easy answer there except to say I love you but from now on it will be from a distance.
But what has caught my eye a couple of times is that you two saw a therapist and the therapist wants him to come "clean." You want him to come "clean." Then what, beat him with what you have pryed out of him. This is called interrogation and I have to say that the therapist needs some supervision and should review this case with a senior in the field. right now it sounds like your Husband has nothing to gain from these encounters.
 If, as a number have suggested, you post this on the Erotic Highway also check back about three months ago in that forum where a young many was struggling from the issue of going to conjoint therapy and he was terrified of having a therapist ask him to do exactly that in the first meeting.
 Those of us who are or were in the business of seeing families were blown away by the way the therapist acted in that case. Pretty much the same as yours.  The usual idea is to try to get both parties to invest in the process, identify individual and common goals. If you goal is divorce then the process sounds like you are trying to gather evidence.
 If you have decided to get a divorce then tell that to your therapist and partner and say you want to do it in a way that is minimally destructive.
  You sound in your original post like you have decided the outcome so be clear what your agenda is when meeting with the therapist.
You probably need to get a new one but it may be too late.
 This is painful for sure, but the only way through it is through it.
God Bless both of you and your family.
B.
I am single and did not start the hobby until a couple of years after our separation. I would have preferred a relationship, but her extensive substance abuse relapses drove me away. There is now evidence that she began two affairs either while we were married or very soon afterwards. I don't bother trying to figure that out. The quality of the relationship by itself was enough information for me to decide what I wanted.
Good Luck
Beret

-- Modified on 8/12/2007 11:45:37 PM

I think I'll get a couple of loving boyfriends and cheat on them. They'll get mad and say, "But I thought you loved me and we have great sex!"

My response, "Yes, it's great, but sometimes it's not enough. Sometimes I like red Speedos, sometimes Hawaiian boxer shorts, sometimes normal-looking bathing suits (whatever that means) and sometimes I like to go skinny dipping at a hippy lake and get a little tipsy. So . . . because I love you all I guess we'll need to get divorced or you'll just have to learn to live with it. And -- just maybe -- if you've been good Cabana boys, I'll buy you flowers, take you to lunch and buy you some Stiletto cowboy boots to walk around in for me while you clean the kitchen. Because, after all, it's not a present for you, but for me.

Hugs,
Ciara
Roger: Over & Out!

-- Modified on 8/12/2007 11:09:27 PM

-- Modified on 8/12/2007 11:10:48 PM

I am a scoundrel. For example, as I write this post I am thinking how sexy you are for being emotionally naked in starting this dialogue and replying to other people’s posts. You have courage and your posts have been compelling and resonating.

Let me expand by what I mean for sorry for being caught. One thing I did not mention is that some guys will test things to see what we can get away with. We want to test the limits, it’s our nature.

I wrecked the first car I bought at sixteen because I wanted to know how fast I could go on Dead Indian Road without spinning out. Was I sorry for speeding and crashing, hell no, I was sorry for not buying the Michelins. Cars, fighting, motorcycles or relationships, it doesn’t matter, it’s like we have a death wish.

By the way, the movie "Unfaithful" was about an adultress, why this psuedonym? Never mind, I know when I being annoying, though I am interested.  

Look I am not saying it is only your fault, it takes two to Tango.

But how many times do you think a man can initiate ? or how many times does it take him to get shot down before he feels unwanted.
Maybe you have sex with him ,but he feels it isn't from the heart.
I am not in your bedroom or home, so I don't know what is going on .........but sometimes it isn't only about sex.

A man not interested in sex ??? Huh ?? You thought what you wanted to think because it worked for you.

Did you really ever think about his needs ? or only yours ??

Maybe he did try to come to you, but you brushed him off cause you were busy with the kids/home/work/or whatever.
Maybe you didn't make him feel like he can come to you.

Yes live and learn , move on from the hurt if you want to save your marriage.

CindySpice just nailed it.  Her insight is spot on and is usually what happens.  Take her advice in the last sentence!

Get off your moral high ground as you do not deserve it (he does), stop playing the martyr with all the righteous indignation and save your marriage!!!!!!!!!!!  

The greatest majority of guys do NOT want to cheat.  They want to know they can come home and have ALL of their needs met!

And if I did, it would be to the 'right' woman.  And wasting money on escorts would be a thing of the past.  But don't get me wrong, as a single gentleman with no one to share with, my ATF, at this time in my life, fills the need for fun and companionship.  But I'd give that up gladly for a woman with passion and commitment.

"I am a single guy, and I have known several very decent married guys on here who I have chastised"  

My comment stands given your position.  And Mr. SD why are your comments any more relevant than any other posters?  The lady is on here trying to find perspective (granted, this is not the place that I would turn to, but that is HER choice).  There are many perspectives on this - I try not to be judgemental - as you and Ciara come off!  

So, consider what you yourself have written.  This is a decent thread, and no ones opinion is superior to anyother.   I have posted after you, IMHO, where you have "interpreted" (and wrongly, I might add) what I have written.  My subsequent posts were to set the record straight.  I just don't like folks reworking my words to suit their needs.  and I am sure that this will be a hot topic of back channeling.  Go to it.

-- Modified on 8/13/2007 6:29:18 AM

I never expected to receive all of these responses.  My husband, who is now trying to stay away from this website (so he says) sees me at the computer all the time.  I am hearing that his infidelity had a lot to do with our relationship.  I am reading about other people's relationships and problems too.  He still says he never saw any of these women.  HE says he only emailed and called them.  He says he never had the guts to see them.  This is where I struggle.  I actually joined this website to see how easy it is to make an appointment. So imagine my  remorse to learn how easy it is to make an appointment.  I hope with counseling we can work through this.  But, if he can't tell me the truth, how can I move forward and ever trust him again? How long have you been married?  How long ago did you find out.  If I may ask, how are you coping with all of this?  It really helps me to hear other points of view.  And I agree, there have really been some honest, candid conversations on this website.

I really am learning more about this hobby.  I have a question for you.  As I mentioned, my husband is telling me, he would email/call to make the appointments, but he wouldn't show up.  He is telling me he would  "blow them off".  It seems very enticing for men.  It also seems very easy & discreet.  Can I ask how often do you just receive inquiries?  If someone sets up an appointment via email, do they need to call to confirm?  Is it just one phone call?  It would really help me.  My husband has me stuck by not admitting he ever saw any of the women.  HE is screaming at me over and over "I never saw them!!" I need closure on this.  I need to know what I am moving forward from.  He just wants me to believe he is done with this and move forward.  And as you say, I can't live without knowing what he is doing.  It went on for 4 years.  He never dreamed he would get caught. Of course he is telling me what he thinks I want to hear, but I just want the truth.  SO how do you know when the man is actually going to be in the hotel room when he contacts you?  I really appreciate your candidacy. Thanks.

I do hope you will find the right woman.  I thnik your honestly will be refreshing fro her. Good luck.

On a humorous note, going into any therapy, one should ask "what will the outcome be? and when will we no longer need your services?"  

Great analysis and perspective.

-- Modified on 8/13/2007 6:58:16 PM

"unfaithful"  the name came to me when I nervously created a user name on this website.  My daughter's middle name is Faith, and my husband said he started doing this after she was born...in 2002. Thus the name unfaithful2002. You are not being annoying.  I feel like I have learned more in these past 2 days....I only posted this on Saturday, than I have in my almost 10 years of marriage.  I just can't understand not being honest, and not standing up and saying...This is what I did.  Take ownernship.  Maybe then I would at least have respect for him to be a man.  I guess I have a strong personality...what ultimately pushed him away.  But I have my integrity, and if I make a bad decision, or any decision...I take responsibility.  I guess now I have to take ownership for driving him away.  But he needs to be stronger for himself. I don't know that you have a death wish.  Maybe just an insatiable curiosity.  That does not have to be a bad thing.  I just think if you choose to marry somone, you should choose to be honest and deal with the consequences.  Not hide from the truth.  I guess as I am writing this I see the ultimate demise of my relationship. I do what I do, and take full ownership, no matter who gets pissed off.  He never did that.  That was his problem with me, and my problem with him is he needed to grow a set of balls, and not lurk in dark corners.  Such a release.  I guess this is good therapy fo me.  Are you married??

Read my post to you above. You do tend to get sidetracked about something else, especially your ex. That's all I'm saying. I even said, "sorry hon," because I had a feeling you would get upset. I think you have posts (as of late) where you're clear thinking and then you have your split personality (like Mr. Spock). I have not always agreed with Mr. Self Destruct on certain issues, but you did take his words personally and he was just expressing his opinion. I wasn't going to say anything until you got angry with him. Also, I was referring to your post to this poor woman who is traumatized at this very moment, and you said to her, "do you even begin to comprehend that your very language prevents your hubby from speaking with you on very sensative issues." I think you were speaking of your situation not her's. Maybe it's you that is judgmental, hon. Perhaps you're getting too addicted to the hobby. You talk about seeing strippers all the time (and that's your business), but I -- among others -- think you're just another hobbyist who blames women for your problems.

Peace out,
Ciara

-- Modified on 8/13/2007 11:08:36 AM

-- Modified on 8/13/2007 11:15:47 AM

-- Modified on 8/13/2007 4:53:15 PM

as if it were some strange and unique creature recently discovered by sceintists exploring in the remote regions of Pluto....

We are discussing the fact that men - cheat with escorts.  BUT, women cheat as well.  Often I've watched "the dance" whereby two at work (happily? married to others) wink and flirt and go off on redezvous... (the convention in St. Paul - right!)  well, two, meaning a guy and (gasp!) A LADY.  Not all ladies who do this are single.  

This might be a male thing, but more likely it is a human thing.  Deprive someone of the specific intimacy that their hard wiring tells them they need, and you have a recipe for infidelity. Were this a man with exactly the same issue, my advice would be identicle to what I have written...  How do I know?  Seen it happen.  The only difference is that women tend to not use escorts, and more quickly leave the emotional ties to their SO.  

What is it in OUR society that creates such issues over this?  Perhaps as Berat has indicated- society tends to govern this tendency- but it is a weak force... and given our media's proclivities of recent - getting weaker every day.....


-- Modified on 8/13/2007 11:23:41 AM

-- Modified on 8/13/2007 11:26:51 AM

I have shared everything in my life with her. She is free to make decisions in her life knowing what the truth is... remember that goes both ways. I for one want to be the man of her dreams, not a dream stealer. But sometimes dreams change...

So tell me, you are looking for records, etc.... are you looking to be right or do you want to relate? Lets say he said "I did it all" what then? Hey no problem with any response here, but think about it. When someone is right... someone has to be what? yep you guessed it... Wrong... How much do you like being wrong? Well I would bet it is the same for your husband...

So try this... get VERY clear with what it is that you want and just state that. but beware if you are not clear with what you want you are apt to get something else that will just upset you more. Upset usually comes from un met expectations... like in this case fidelity.

So if you want a husband who is faithful... maybe he can be that, but that would require him to let go of who he was being that had him cheat in the first place. And then YOU would have to be a woman that has a man that is faithful... (what that requires...? beats me...)

Good luck.. and as I said... I am sorry for your suffering.

However, I don't usually meet men at hotels. But yes, I always confirm that they're staying at the place presumed and call ahead of time. I find it hard to believe that he would just not show up. But if he did this, then he is a prick for wasing our (providers') valuable time. I know it's hard for you to imagine. I never thought 10 years ago I'd sleep with a married man, but I have no intentions on anything romantic with anyone married. It's strictly business. Why don't you talk to the provider(s) he supposedly made appointments with? I can't say they'll talk to you, but if you don't trust what your husband says then get a divorce. It's really quite simple. I know: It's easy for someone else to say, but believe me I've been there with cheating boyfriends and a husband in the past. The important questions you have to ask yourself: How will the divorce affect our children's lives if I don't trust my husband anymore and we continue to argue in front of them? Can I trust my husband again? Is it worth it? There are plenty of fish in the sea. Unless you have an incredible friendship with your husband, too, and your children are extremely young, then it's a different story. Personally, no relationship is worth my time when I cannot trust someone that is not even my friend. But that is your choice and your decision.

Hugs,
Ciara

"Someone who is nice to you but rude to the waiter is not a nice person."

If your husband has spent 4 years setting up appointments and then "blowing off" the ladies, he is quite frankly an asshole.
His excuse basically is:
He wanted, for whatever reason, to "cheat" on you, chose to go as far as booking appointments, but then claims due to guilt or fear or whatever to have wasted the ladies time and cost them money?
He is just a tad self-serving isn't he?
Not like it would have been terrible to cancel on the ladies instead of "blowing them off", but it would take a modicum of decency.

Now, if he is telling the truth, and your only concern is where he parks his penis...then this is, I guess, an excuse that could "save" your marriage. If he is telling the truth, but your concern is the deceit and secrecy for four years then his excuse isn't gonna help too much.

In this thread there has been a lot of projection of what happened to this or that man is what happened with your husband...what happened in someone else's relationship can't tell you anything about what happened in yours, since your husband is none of these men (presumably...though it would be odd if he were one of the respondents to this thread) and you are none of these men's wives.

There has been a lot of "talk" about you or other wives "driving" their husbands to do this...an interesting excuse, just one problem we can't control another's actions...but we can control our reactions to them.  The only time the "they drove me to it" excuse is valid would be in a split second choice to act...like shooting someone that had a gun pointed at you...to take four years, that isn't a reaction that was driven to it is reaction that was thought about and chosen.  We can not make anyone do anything they don't want except under duress...unless you had a gun pointed at him, anything he did regardless of your actions was his choice....just as anything you might have done despite his actions was your choice.

It is more a matter of the unspoken threat that is carried out...he never says that if you don't have more sex, freakier sex, whatever sex with him he will find it elsewhere...he just finds it elsewhere;  she never says if you don't do this, make me feel like that, etc. I'll withhold sex, she just withholds it.  Threats never made but executed.

A great deal of posts have been made about honesty in relationships, but at the same time are replies, by men, saying they need variety...if they knew that, and they believe that is the natural behavior of "men" then why promise fidelity or monogamy to any woman?  Eat their cake and have it too, perhaps? Yet...honesty is important...or so they say, but do they do?

Maybe the problem lies in the fact that when we (people) are "in love" we can't imagine a time when we would want to be with anyone else, we mean all those promises...at the time, but things change, and then we don't know how to go back and revisit the issue when we find ourselves wanting a "bit of strange".  We want our biological imperatives met (sexual spreading it around) but we want the love and security of our "partner" as well...fear of losing the relationship can make us afraid to bring it up the fact that we meant everything  we said in our vows when we said them but we mean them somehow differently now.

That leaves a couple of choices: we can deny ourselves one of the things we want in favor of the other...or we can try and make sure we get both...and that often is the choice but that fear of obtaining the "new" costing us what we already have keeps us from being honest....and there in lies the deceit, that is the birth of secrecy...of cheating (and it can only be cheating if it is hidden....it isn't cheating if it's in the rules, so if the rules were to change then we couldn't cheat).

Ideally "love" is a selfless emotion, we do things for those we love because we love them, because we want to make them happy, because we care about them and their well being.  Think about your children you do the right thing by them out of love, not because of what they can do for you in return...but for some reason we forget this in "romantic love" relationships.  We "love" them and because of that want them to do for us...we want them to prove their love to keep ours. We don't love them simply because we do...we love them because of what they give us, do for us, make us feel.  Look at the replies from married men here (not just this thread but the whole board)saying their wives are the reason they do this if she would just *insert act here* then he wouldn't see escorts, he loves her as far as what he gets out of it, talk to wives they say she would be more affectionate if he would just *insert act here* she loves him only as far as what it does for her. The men see it in the women, they can point to many examples of it in their lives but they can't see the same behavior in themselves...nope their wives "drove them" to do this...women can see it in men, but don't see it in themselves...we are all just as "bad" as the "enemy"....we just don't want to see it or admit it.

As for your question on the possibility that he might not have shown up, then it does seem that your issue is more with where his penis has been and less with the lies or secrecy...and if that is the case, then it isn't all that surprising that he won't "own up" to what he did.

-- Modified on 8/13/2007 4:54:24 PM

She just found out about her husband. You guys even said you cried and it took some of you years to get over your partner -- obviously you're still pissed off. Cut her some slack and have some sympathy. I lost so much respect for some of you guys on this board. You're unsympathetic just because you got burned. Well, guess what guys, we all get burned in our lives. Get over it! Be polite to this lady.



-- Modified on 8/13/2007 5:10:25 PM

Didn't you see my smile and the fact that I was actually mocking someone who likes constant flings with others. I'm not married. I'm a provider, hon. Read the post again with humor. I think you posted under the wrong person.

Hugs,
Ciara

-- Modified on 8/13/2007 4:39:34 PM

-- Modified on 8/13/2007 6:00:22 PM

-- Modified on 8/13/2007 5:58:20 PM

It is amazing how some men are so hostile toward this poor woman. She is here to find answers, and I think she is being very polite to all of us -- probably more than I would be if I just found out about my husband. There are always two sides to every story. Just because a guy will put out (and often not well) for his wife doesn't mean the woman will if he's being an idiot. Bob: You don't know the story or even if this woman does not give her husband sex. We're not trying to tell her it's anyone's fault. We're trying to comfort her and give her some suggestions. Not too many men are giving helpful advice to this poor woman -- very disappointing but I'm not surprised.

Hugs,
ciara

Very true words.  I guess I am still looking to see what I can forgive.  But you said it best.  $ years of mistrust....nothing else left to say.  I guess it really is over!! Thanks

It only has to be over if you want it to be.

People can forgive pretty much anything if they want to...if the only reason you were with your husband was for fidelity or because he didn't hide anything then yes, it would have to be over I guess...

but, if there are other things you did and do love about him, you and he can always change the rules if you both really want to.  If his hiding was because he didn't believe you could understand his desire to roam, then maybe it isn't as simple as "he lied" or "he hid this"...

Like you said you need to see what you can forgive, but part of that is seeing why he may have done what he did...and if that can be changed them maybe things are salvageable.

The only people that know that are you and he.

"I am single still (was married very young)". I had my own issues WHEN I was married, and therefore I CAN speak from experience.

You got so stuck on my use of the word "chastise" that you didn't even look at the point I was trying to make my first time around, or see that I said I was being devil's advocate the second time around because I was taking UF2002's counterpoint.

You were the one who jumped on my posts.  Ironic for you to accuse me of interpreting YOUR posts.

No back channeling here.  I'm done with this.  You got so hung up on my "chastising" my FRIENDS that you turned this into a mirror of the BS on the politics board.  Thank you so much.

I have heard from many clients about the whole hormones make me do it thing, lol.

This is one of the reasons I am single. I am too jealous & don't want to share my BF whom I am dating when they are telling me I am the only one, I am not asking them all this BS, they just tell me all kinds of lies.
It hurts when you get played.

What I find really amusing is some guy's thinking that their wives could not be possibly playing around on them & I just have to laugh. I'm sure it has happened before.

I'm 33, never been married & I get people all the time in real life wondering what am I doing wrong, no kids or marriage. I am just not ready for all that.

Sara

-- Modified on 8/13/2007 9:02:08 PM

-- Modified on 8/13/2007 9:58:24 PM

Good luck to you hun. You have proof and he is saying he doesn't remember. Sure he isn't on this website anymore. I feel really bad for you.

Sara

If your husband was hiring escorts your marriage was not as perfect as you seem to think it was. ALL my clients but a few are married and ALL tell me their wives either 1)are no longer interested in sex 2)are not interested in experimenting sexually or 3)they just want variety. Did he tell you it was an "addiction" or do you just assume? Another question....if the marriage is that great otherwise, why are YOU willing to throw it away so quickly?

demure rather domineering. Forgive my boldness, it’s just that I find your honesty so raw and refreshing. You’ve hit a nerve.

My father, God Bless his soul died when I was fourteen. When he passed away our family had to hire a private investigator to check on his past for possible litigation against a company. The private investigator found he had an extramarital liaison and this woman had even bore my father’s child. Because of the fear this information would damage our case we settled out of court.

My older sister and I have never told my mom of my father’s other family. I remember when I was in third grade, my dad was wrapping a special gift but it was not for my mom. When I caught him wrapping the present, he made an excuse, and that is when I knew my dad was hiding “something”.

To this day, the subject of my father is one of those; “don’t ask do not tell” policies between my sister and I.  I love my dad, but my sister has not forgiven him.

I left out a lot of details.

I will say one thing you’ve handled this “situation” with grace and surprising humor. I've learned something. The truth, well, it will always eventually become evident. You have my prayers. No, I am not married. I guess you can kind of tell?



-- Modified on 8/14/2007 9:12:53 PM

Still new to this site.  How do I read a private message?

what amkes you think that they are telling you the truth... or that they know the truth? I used the same excuses too...

The crazy part was once I engaged my wife in an honest conversation... A whole new world opened up to me. She wanted even more than I had ever given her credit for... Now I find myself having trouble keeping up with her...

What I think I am saying is... it is all a story we tell ourselves to justify our behavior. Very little in life is the truth, just stories made up to explain why we do things. We all got them.

Crap... everything I just wrote you is just my perspective... not the truth. So I say make a story that inspires you... not blames others for your unhappyness.

except yourself. We have zero control over the actions of anyone but ourselves. I agree with you 100%

If your life is not turning out the way you wanted it too... you can't blame others. You can take in the information and then make decisions.

The hard part is we all filter that information through our past and then make these decisions not on the truth but what we think is the truth.

There is what happened and then there is what we make it mean. What he did has very little to do with the OP, BUT what she does with the information is totally up to her.

The truth is you two did not talk, the fact is wife's don't want to here I need more sex than your giving are I need more passion. And I understand you have needs to but most men will try to fullfill your needs like do things they don't want to do. On the other hand what we ask for takes less than and hour of your time 2-3 are 4 times a week, what about the time he spends on you are doing somethings you want that he does not but does anyway. Marriage is a two way street but most of the time it only goes one way. Some men hobby for the sport of it and I think more hobby because they love there wifes but are missing sex and passion and before you say I must be a asshole let me say my wife does not work, she has a lawn person a house keeper once a week, no kids at home, she only cooks 2 are 3 time a mo. and is COLD AS ICE in bed does not like me touching her no passion at all this after 30 years of marriage but she never has had passion it is getting worse so I well hobby and if I get caught it is up to her and Yes I have tried to talk to her about my needs and NO it has not changed.

I COMPLETELY understand WHY wives lose interest in sex with their husbands....

Please share more

**He still says he never saw any of these women. HE says he only emailed and called them.  He says he never had the guts to see them. **

You, I and the American people know that's bullshit.

I'm sorry. He's lying to you. And if that *was* the truth, something is not right with him. What grown man has time for games like that?

LOL!! Ouch!!!