Both providers and hobbist need to be careful. Lots of providers and hobbists have been busted recently. From reading the article a LE officer can have sex with a provider and still bust her afterwords.

Never ever been busted and been in the business for 5 years.  I've never seen anyone without a reference and when I started references weren't even popular but I still asked for them.

In my opinion, agencies never do intense screening and they're there basically as a middleman and more interested in the money.

Now I never see anyone without deposits and require advanced bookings.  Sure this slows business down a bit but I feel it's better safe than sorry. I'm not high volume and I don't do hourly appts and I love Paypal.  I guess whatever works best is how many will handle their business

...does it seem like LE is spending a lot more time and resources on our hobby lately than before?  Funny thing is, I can see it, somewhat, as far as street prostitution goes, but who are the incall/outcall girls hurting?  Who are their clients hurting?  "Quality of Life" in the community is bullshit.  Everything goes on behind closed doors and no one is going to start raping the neighborhood kids because some woman nearby escorts out of her apartment.  

I know I'm preaching to the choir, but with all the REAL crime out there, you'd think they'd have better things to do.  Cops!

I will always agree that people should exercise caution when participating in the hobby.  However, the only place in the attached article where there is any mention that police can have sex with a provider before they make an arrest, is a quote by Norma Jean Alamandovar, (her name is misspelled in the article).  I am familiar with Ms. Alamandovar, and commend her for the work she is doing to decriminalize prostitution.  However, she was never a police officer as stated in the article.  She was a meter maid: Her enforcement activity was limited to writing parking citations.  She is also incorrect when she stated that police can have sex with a prostitute, and then arrest her.  

If an officer were to have sex with a prostitute, then arrest her, how would he testify in court? Just think how unrealistic the following scenario would be:

Defense Attorney: “Officer: Would you describe in detail, what occurred between you and the defendant before you arrested her”  

Officer:  “Um, well, we kissed, orally copulated each other, engaged in sexual intercourse, etc.”  

Defense Attorney: “No further questions your honor.”  

The brief remainder of the trial is self explanatory.  In fact, there is no sitting judge who would allow such testimony by an officer, or for that matter, a prostitute.  The judge would curtail the testimony and dismiss the charge in the interest of justice.  In all likelihood, the judge would initiate a complaint against the officer with officer’s employing agency.

If the object of this board is to help other member avoid being arrested, then only factual information should be posted.  If the purpose is to titillate oneself by posting outrageous rumors, then the poster is no friend of the membership.  The most valuable information that could be shared is the “line” in which LE won’t cross when attempting to make an arrest for prostitution. I sincerely wish I knew the answer to that question.  However, I am sure there are defense attorneys who have an accurate idea of what that “line” is.

Reviews are important also. We should develop a reverse reference check. Where a provider who gives out a reference does a reference check to make sure the provider is a real provider. As one provider told me, "I know alot of info from my friends on the street".

In Anne Arundal and Montgomery County, Md they have a secret internet task force to go after providers and clients. Looks like they are working in over time instead of working on national security issues. I guess with the war winding down in Iraq there will be more internet stings and arrests.

Looks like everyone will be frozen in place in sticking with the client/providers that they have previously used.

Yes, for sure, the street walkers do tend to class-down a neighborhood, and I, frankly, wouldn't care to see it where I live.  But, this way, the high-class, meet behind closed doors way, doesn't hurt anyone or anything.  

The only part of any encounter I ever have that isn't just as great as can be, is the first few moments where LE concerns are evident.  Once that's over, whoo hoo!!!  My favorite moments in life.  It's time I face it, I'm an addict.

Have fun,

Jacksonlips

The points made here about whether or not prostitution "hurts nobody" are beside the point. People "hurt nobody" when they speed over the limit, but they know they might get a ticket.

If you're REALLY disgusted at the crack-downs (as I am) then your proper action is to lobby somehow for the LAWS THEMSELVES to be changed. You can't blame a judge, jury, cop, or prosecutor for doing their jobs. You CAN blame the neo-fundamentalists who foist their religion on us by means of elected officials.

Waaay too long article, but scary points about how just engaging in kissing can be "proof" of prostitution.  So those disclaimers on many provider's websites that exchange of money is not for prostitution but for company, doesn't hold any water?
Liberalman, are you there?

I disagree that the recent crackdown is due to neo-fundamentalist religious groups being behind it.

New sources of revenue in the face of decreasing budgets at the City and County level are what I believe drive what we are seeing.

Having consulted for both County and City Governments, and the associated LE agencies I can only relate my experience.  What I have seen is that whenever there is a budget crunch, and quick cash needs to be made the top three targets in order always seem to be:

1. Collection of unpaid fines
2. Increased Drunk Driving Busts
3. Increased Prostitution and Pandering Busts

They're a quick way of bringing in revenue to bolster both the "Public Safety" and General Fund funds when they are low or fully encumbered.

The risk is generally low to the officers in DUI and Prostitution operations, and non-existent in the case of unpaid fine collection.

Just my $0.02.

HPG

not as familiar with Ms. Almodovar as you think.

Cops routinely have sex with providers. When they testify in court, they deny it. Cops LIE, LIE, LIE!!!

References definitely, deposits no.

..so how do we go about lobbying for change when it represents loss of a cash cow for the municipalities AND a major issue for the neo-fundamentalists. If we could somehow change the law I'm  sure the Feds would step in and violate our 10th amendment rights again like they did with medical marijuana.
 I would be willing to have an invisible bar code tatoo that is read by scanner just to get through this justifiable concern of the providers.(the neo-fundamentalists will love that)
Providers could flash a "Criminal Activities Union" card to show that they're legit'.
 We obviously have to do something because we as a community are all being exploited by the two groups who preach that they're trying to stop human exploitation.

The police also have ads for phony escorts that they use as a reference.  And as of yesterday, one of these phony escorts has a review (a problem report is posted).  The bottom line is that you have to be very aware of all the tactics and take steps to avoid them.  

I can't really post any details because the last time I did this TER pulled my post to protect themselves.  Just be aware that as you post things to say that this is how I get around getting caught, LE is taking steps to use these steps against you.

That being said, I don't really think it's time for a "Chicken Little" act to say the sky is falling.  Just be aware and be careful.  By the way, the article and many of these tactics refer to SD Vice.  I saw a warning to a couple of SD ladies that are visiting LA that with the link above attached that didn't really apply to their visit to LA.  Many other cities devote their resources to other things.

Those disclaimers are legally meaningless - in fact as we all and LE knows, they have nothing to do with the actions/intents of either the provider or customer.  Maybe they make everyone involved have a sense of comfort. If anything, those disclaimers scream out the person is probably engaging in prostitution.  Plus, the fact that websites trumpet reviews only convince LE that they engage in prostitution.    The best safeguard for a provider is to do an excrutiating background check of someone - which as we all know is uncomfortable for a vast number of potential customers.   That's just the way it is.

prime examples.  MC has operated quite openly in many other cities - Boston, DC, etc.  Unfortunately, in their first west coast trial, they ran into LE: http://theeroticreview.com/msgBoard/ViewMsgBody.asp?BoardID=1&Messageid=64539 .

-- Modified on 4/12/2003 4:32:20 PM

I have been told by more than one lady of the night that LE have partaken of her favors then gone on with the bust only to make no mention of it under oath.

-- Modified on 4/12/2003 5:00:40 PM

prostitute, please keep your unsubstantiated rumors to yourself.  I always hear someone tell about a friend who had such an experience.  However, I have never heard anyone say that it actually happened to them.  Please, no more “I have a friend rumors.”  General statements are worthless, and benefit no one.  We need a defense attorney, who defends prostitutes, to explain exactly how far LE can and will go to make an arrest.

This money point is a good point. But ya have to admit, that "someone else's morality" is behind the act of creating those laws in the first place, whether or not budget shortfalls are behind their level of enforcement.

It's easy & low risk. They don't have the balls to got after real criminals or terrorists.

..probably pull the attorneys Bar card out of spite. There is nothing Gov't hates more than competition on a level playing field.

...but there are not nearly enough police resources to enforce all of them.  That means they have to prioritize their efforts.  My problem is, why such a high priority for busting incall/outcall girls?  My view is that police resources should be thrown at REAL crime first, you know, where people really do get hurt.  Then, if there's time and money left, go after the BS laws.

...a cop lying on the stand?  Remember all the scandals in the news about that?  And I mean as far back as you can remember in any city you can name?  Do you think only narcotics or gang detectives perjure themselves?  

The cops know who's gonna be believed in a my-word-against-hers scenario.  I don't think vice cops are morally superior to their other doughnut-munching brethren.

About 6 years ago I was frequenting a provider in Clairmont Ca. She had a few members of San Bernardino Sheriffs dept employing her regularly too. One day I showed up and she was packing to get out of Dodge by sundown. Seems one of the sheriffs came to have his way for free, toss the place just for shits & giggles and then gave her notice to get out of town.
        "absolute power corrupts absolutely"

I don't really think that's quite accurate...  In virtually no cases are the actual cops involved at the scene the ones making the decisions of who to go after.  -That- decision is made by politicians, either mayor or chief of police, and is primarily driven by the need for positive publicity.  Vice busts are quick, easy, and a relatively sure source of publicity with lots of arrests to show their "dedication to law and order".  Going after hard/violent crime is risky, at best...not only in terms of risk to your officers, but you need to -find- those hardened criminals in order to bust them, and they're -not- going to make it easy.  SP's, on the other hand, -have- to make themselves relatively easy to find, if they wish to stay in business.  Hard criminal convictions are also much tougher to get than simple vice convictions...it's far easier to tape a vice operation than it is to find enough circumstantial evidence to bust a burglar or mugger.

I do not disagree with you regarding the premise that police lie in the performance of their duties.  Although I have never witnessed it, and have never talked to anyone who observed it first hand.  But then again, I have had very few contacts with the police.  With the law of averages, along with the human factor, it is bound to happen.  The question I have is to what extent LE would lie.  I can see LE stretching the truth as far as getting a violation is concerned.  E.g. saying the prostitute offered sex for money, when in reality, she very skillfully circumvented those forbidden words.  

What really concerns me is the assertion being bantered around that LE would complete a full session before making an arrest.  If that were true, I could fall victim to a female vice officer.  I must admit, I find that very hard to believe.  However, if that were to happen, and I was arrested, I would plead not guilty and demand a jury trial.

At trial, I would have my attorney question the officer, in great detail, about what happened.  Ask her to explain to the jury how she performed various acts, etc.  I tape record every session with a provider, so if she perjured herself on the stand, I would have my attorney play the tape for the jury.  Again, as I stated in the previous post, we need guidance from a defense attorney who represents prostitutes.

paragons of selfless duty as told to me in my youth.
Oh please say its not true; For if it is than I surely have lived too long.

The policy makers don't sit around and argue moral issues at City Manager's Budget Meetings, at least not the ones that I sat through for the better part of nine years.

They focus specifically on budget shortfalls, and the easiest and lowest cost way to garner additional revenues without increasing the cost of ongoing operations, personnel or associated materials.  

Again, in the County and Municipal public safety agencies, uncollected fines, DUI busts and prostitution busts are the quickest and easiest ways to boost revenues without incurring substantianl operational budget increases, and without increasing the risk to officers on duty. There is a big push now to rig more and more intersections with cameras that can photograph you running a red light, making an illegal turn, and send you a fine in the mail. This is increasingly popular because it is really easy revenue and has a trememdous ROI curve.

The issues of morality, cleaning up the neigborhood or making the streets safer are "political spins" done ex-post-facto.

HPG

reports. I was with a friend from India who was hassled by the cops, because he is dark-skinned. The cop threw him down to the sidewalk, causing cuts on my friend's face. In the police report, the cop wrote: "I placed the suspect gently on the ground. The suspect kept looking around which caused the abrasions on his face."

This is but a miniscule example of how cops obfuscate the truth. I have experienced cops lying about the facts in the trial of a mere traffic ticket. If they are willing to risk charges of perjury in order to obtain a conviction in a traffic matter,    a fortiori, they will lie even more to convict anyone they consider to be an "NCIC sluggo mother-f**ker."

You want more info, Dr. OBGYN? Post a message on the Legal Board for "liberalman", a criminal defense attorney in L.A. who has defended many providers.

Well I have had a cop lie to get a conviction against me. It was a minor issue and had/has no real impact on my life other than higher insurance rates (and really pissing me off).

Haven't you ever taken a speeding violation to court?  

In my case the cop said I was doing 50 in a 35, I was going 50 in a 45, the location he put on the summons was a completely different location than he actually clocked me.

Now I suppose you'll start asking for docket numbers.

...that a male officer would probably enjoy sampling the goods more than a female officer would enjoy servicing a customer/arrestee, so I think you're safe there.  Still, I could see a female officer offering sex for money and asking you to undress, etc., everything but actually disrobe herself and "get down" with you.

As for taping your sessions, it may not be a good idea to announce that, since I believe it's illegal.  Remember the guy in Los Angeles who taped a drug deal he could hear from his neighbor's open apartment window?  Guess who went to jail?  "Illegal wiretap" or some such nonsense.

I used to own an agency in santa barbara county... i will say this its crazy the time and effort that these LE agencys go to.. We had a simple low volume incall.. in a quit complex. And we did a few outcalls. For the amount of time they spent investigating us they could of stopped the drug trade.. cleaned up the homeless and a few other tings... I do agree that LE wants the money when they busted they got 4 agencys one brought them over a half million dollars... where we bought them maybe 500 .. not stupid wnough to leave cash around .. I was suprised what they could do with a girl its amazing!!!

Once it went to trial they lie there asses off and they total twist stuff too.. the worst part is your just a pimp and a lier so your side is all bullshit.. With us the girls that where there that the cops got at the sting had kids so the cops took there kids from them and told them they would get them back after they testified... which is total  bullshit too . so thats how they use the girls as leverage too .. Then to top it off the printed there full names in the paper and these where local girls jsut trying to get by ... so i have been there done that

A 3 yrs of a prison sentence ... i did 18 months  ands then parole fucked up .. the girls got nothing

They won't play the role of trick to a MALE Prostitute in a hotel room.  Could you just imagine a naked male prostitute slithering all over a naked vice officer for a "body to body" massage?   IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN IN THE HOMOPHOBIC POLICE DEPARTMENT!

As I read that, the same thoughts crossed my mind.  Ok, so SD LE is busting that many guys and gals.  Now what?  So what?  What exactly did they prevent, solve, save?

If they were busting that many drug dealers, shoplifters, robberies, illegals, wreckless drivers, child molestors, rapists, burgleries, ... ad nauseum, that are unsolved each year, then they could would be doing something.  I guess what this tells my mind is that San Diego should significantly cut back on the money to San Diego law enforment agencies.  What a complete waste of taxpayer dollars, and LE training they receive.

Also add to your list white collar crimes, (IE: pyramid schemes, embezzlers, etc. & computer crimes, (IE: identity theft, hackers, etc., where there are real victims...

system.

I enjoyed a similar view of the world for about 46 years before I had my first and only encounter with LE.  The lies started with the police report and got worse from there.  It took a ten page single-spaced memo to my lawyer to refute point-by-point the dozens of mistakes, exagerations or just plain lies contained in that report.  And that report became the "reality" of what happened and from which I had to defend myself.  That was only the beginning of a 9 month long nightmare.

I agree, too much rumor gets passed along as fact, but since I sense you won't believe what anybody else says on this subject, I'll spare you the details of my case.  But suffice it to say, it was a life changing event for me and snapped me out of my naive view of how the justice system works and what rights we have versus what we think we have.  It's like the old joke about sausage being made, if you want to believe you have civil rights, don't watch the process in action.  

A provider that lives about ten miles from me got busted a few years ago.  Admitedly, I wasn't present in the room, but I had several phone conversations with her and she told me the vice cop had sex with her then arrested her.  A female vice cop then spent a couple more days posing as her in her house, with her phone and computer at her disposal setting up more victims to come visit her and get arrested.  

You can instruct your lawyer to do any damn thing you want, and your strategy is probably what I would recommend if I were fighting this in court.  But let me just say this, after you've been LE's butt-f*ck boy (figuratively speaking) for six months, you won't feel like you've won much of anything even if they drop the charges.  And of course, your total cost if it goes to trial will exceed $10,000.  It's much harder to place a pricetag on the intangibles- your name in the paper, possible employment problems as a result etc.

Thank you for sharing your experience.  I am sorry if you were under the impression that I don't believe what anyone says. The stories have more credibility when they are told first hand.  I have no reason to doubt what said.  You appear to be very credible.  The collective knowledge of the people who frequent these message boards is incredible. If that knowledge was exchanged among the members in a constructive way, we would all benefit immensely.

A couple years ago I fought a traffic ticket in court I got on my motorcycle.  The cop told the court that he pursued me at a speed of 65 mph until he caught me.  But he also claimed I was going 85 mph during the same period.  When I pointed out the impossibility of that happening to the court, the judge stopped me from speaking further and said "I've heard enough.  Guilty."  I couldn't f*cking believe it.

Then in the hallway, the same cop I'd just embarassed in court told me he never wanted to see me in "his" county again, or I'd be in big trouble.