In another thread, "Girl X" troll said something of interest:
"I guess when a girl clearly defines her needs and is bold, she
gets chastised (other ladies, take note of my floggings....if you
step over an imaginary line between low self-esteem and confidence
you'll be similarily whipped. Ouch. )"

That sounds as though it could've come from the lips of Catherine
Mackinnon or any number of other feminists.  Anecdotally, I've
often wondered what position Gloria Steinham assumes during
lovemaking, now that she's married--and if it presents a mental
dilemma for her.

Questions for providers:
Do independents truly feel a liberating sense of "independence"?
Could it be that you have a natural sense of independence and
that's what influenced your career choice?  Or did your career
serve to provide a greater sense of independence?  

Questions for clients:
How do you feel about strong, independent women as providers?  
Do you prefer a strong, independent, self-assured provider or
one who's more mild-mannered and demure?  If you're married,
do providers act differently than your wife--and is that part
of what attracts you--a different personality than the one
you live with daily?

You say "feminist" like it was a bad word.  It might just surprise you to know that the most ardent feminists I know personally, (outside of militant dykes, that is,) are women involved in the sex trade.  It gives you a real overview of the whole situation, let's say, it almost becomes impossible not to see things in political terms.  I saw a documentary this past year, forget the name of it, but it was about the porn biz, and they were interviewing a model who was reflecting on the fact that there were so many college educated women in the field.  She said something along the lines of "we finally figured out what to do with the patriarchy - take their money!"

But feminism doesn't have to mean being "against" men.  I describe myself as a man-loving feminist - it may seem somewhat contradictory, but then life is contradictory, isn't it, and despite the fact men and women often seem to be at odds with each other, we can still get along, can't we?

As far as being an independent and what attitude that may imply, I think you may be right on that one.  Outside of self-employment in any field, I think I'm pretty much unemployable at this point in my life.  

-Anya

I just couldn't not respond.

I'm married going on 33 years to a great life partner.  We both have that Dr. appendage in front of our names and are both feminists in the old (late 60's) sense.  Our view of feminism is that women and men have the right to be treated equally as long as the circumstances permit it. No alteration of the standards  should have to be made to accommodate anyone, and conversly, no raising of the standards should be allowed to keep anyone out. Clearly a 5'-2" man of 135 lbs could not likely qualify for some jobs where a 6'-0" woman pf 175 lbs. might.  

I'm not a activist so I am not too in touch with todays feminist thought, but it seems that the original concept has been lost. I feel that over the years the "movement" has tried to eliminate the differences between the sexes.  Science has demonstrated that not only are there the obvious physical and bichemical differences, but there are psychological differences as well.  I believe, for example, that MOST hetersexual men are not as likely to possess the mothering/nurturing skills that MOST hereto women naturally have.  I think that it is a natural extension of the biologic roll of procreation.  Men and women are different in their heads. It's the hunter and nest builder thing.

My wife is very male in her thinking patterns when making decisions.  She is not mentally invested in jewelry and make up yet she is very pretty and has a great figure (at 52 I'd easily rate her above many 35y/o providers I've seen).  We truely have no dominant person in the household.  We are partners and that has, for the most part, worked out very well for us.

Sexually we are very different.  My ventures into the hobby have come from a desire to be around what I call a girly girl.  My ATF has those qualities.  She takes time to prepare herself and create the look she wants the world to see.  She enjoys being seen as a sexy woman and welcomes the attention from the male gender.  My wife does just the opposite: her grooming is neat and efficient and she really doesn't like public displays of sexuality.  I enjoy giving my ATF jewelry and such because she likes it and uses it.  My wife would rather have something practical such as a piece of furniture or art.  Neither right or wrong, just different.

I enjoy both for their differences.  Yet they are similar too, and I think that I must desire these traits.  Both are strong in their convictions, sure of themselves, comfortable with their chosen sexual presence, and have high IQ's.  I would say that both are feminists in the "old" sense in that neither want to see the differences between the genders erased.  It's just that one accentuates the sexuality and the other minimizes it.

One interesting point is that I think that they both had similar father types: emotionally detatched.  On the other hand, my wife's mother was not very nurturing and my ATF's mother was.

>But feminism doesn't have to mean being "against" men.  I describe
>myself as a man-loving feminist - it may seem somewhat contradictory,
>but then life is contradictory, isn't it, and despite the fact men
>and women often seem to be at odds with each other, we can still
>get along, can't we?

I'm with you (sadly, only figuratively speaking). I was once engaged
in an ongoing discussion with a "feminine feminist" who was able to
convince me there are, indeed inequities...but it's not something
most of us think about regularly (at least not men). There do seem
to be different flavors of "feminism."  The most zealous of them
might call providers "victims" and clients "abusers."  

Or how about this thought: Do providers serve to reinforce
male stereotypical images of women as objects?

>She said something along the lines of "we finally figured out what
>to do with the patriarchy - take their money!"

And therein lies another conundrom. Given that attitude, isn't
it the mirror image of "patriarchy"?  Isn't it taking advantage
of a male weakness for one's personal gain?  

Have you ever considered that men might also said to be victims?
Female sexuality is used everywhere to attract men--it's a
well-known achilles heel for men.  Leaf through any magazine,
looking at the ads intended for men--how many of them seek to
gain a man's attention by using a photo of a beautiful woman,
or a nice shot of cleavage?

Speaking of which...I love that photo on your main web page.

I share your sentiments.

I find your comparisons of wife and ATF interesting, because
my situation is very similar to yours.  There's something to
be said for self-assurance and something to be said for the
pleasure of physical feminine charms.  "Girl X" appears to be
the only woman I've encountered thus far who appears to have
successfully mastered both.

I've read with interest recent articles about how our hormones
influence us.  One mentioned that women are attracted to the
compassionate, caring, understanding man---except at the time
of ovulation when they find the manly macho type irresistable.
That's kinda analagous to our appreciation of a strong independent
woman and also an attraction to a more "feminine" woman.

Then there was a recent article in Psychology Today about
how men's hormones change with fatherhood
(link below).

I chose to "enter this hobby" at age 63 because my wife has totally lost interest in sex. I still need it.
I find the excitement of meeting with a younger, beautiful woman stimulating and invigorating. Maybe it is just fantasy, but I feel it is what keeps me young!
I prefer a women somewhere between demure and agressive. A friendly attitude and indication that they enjoy what they do - giving pleasure and sensual contact.
The best thing is all women are different and I have been fortunate enough to find some of the sweetest in the business.

The Girl X post to which you refer did not stike me as being about "feminism" (however one wishes to define it) at all.  I think instead it was about nothing more than an elitist attitude.  After all, she put down virtually all the men & women on TER while telling us how marvelous she was.  Talk about tooting one's own horn!!

"And therein lies another conundrom. Given that attitude, isn't
it the mirror image of "patriarchy"?  Isn't it taking advantage
of a male weakness for one's personal gain?"

Well of course sweetie, that's what they call "empowerment" these days, isn't it?  And I'm being facetious, because if there's one word I hate, it's "empowerment"!  I've often thought that male patrons were the real "exploited" in a strip club, for instance.  

But I would also say that, in my experience, an intellectual scrutiny of any human relationship is a disaster - in order to get along, I think we need to survive on lust and chemistry/emotion alone.  And what could be better, really?

Thanks about the picture, by the way.

 

There is no such thing as independence. In any business, we the "small business owner" are dependent upon the consumer. I find it funny when women in this business, say "I don't need a man to take care of me." or "I'm independent. I take care of myself." No, you don't need 1 man, you need several...Let me tell you what...I'm doing whatever daddy tells me to do...well, almost...but let's talk...

In a sterling economy with droves of people throwing money this way and that, a lady might feel independent because she can be highly selective and turn down 1/2 the business and still do well. In a sluggish economy, she'll realize just how dependent she is on her regulars and she'll appreciate them that much more.

There is no room for arrogance in this business. I would be the first to say that sometimes fear can look like arrogance but all in all haughtiness is usually not effective. But again, even deer can look haughty at certain angles.

I would say there is a learning curve for both new hobbyists and new providers. During this time, the hobbyist might either be very very careful or take risks without knowing that he is taking any risks (like parking in a bad neighborhood or carrying too much money in his wallet when he doesn't know what he's walking into). During this time, new providers might get a false sense of security thinking that they are god's gift to men or being again, ultra careful or on the flip, blind to the risks of meeting people that you don't know from adam. It's like a kid going to college. At first he's shy on campus, then in a few months after getting he feet wet, he thinks he can stay up late, party on weeknights and cram to get by. In a few more months, he'll learn the hard way and regroup and finally become an "adult" rather than a duck, as I like to call it.

I would say some providers allow this profession to turn them into swans as they start to see the best in everyone and become as accepting as possible because people are unique creatures. Other providers might come to feel "These f****** want to get as much as possible for as little as possible. They stiff me, no show and then call me a blank during the session." This is the escort who has to start putting on a show because she now hates men and does not trust them for the rest of her life. She may even have an impossible time having a relationship in her personal life. Girl A, our swan would tell Girl B not to generalize. Girl B would tell Girl A, wise up.

Same goes for hobbyists. Hobbyist A will come to see each provider as a unique individual and each experience as a potential good time. Hobbyist B will start lowballing because he'll start to think women all want money and don't give a shit about him as a person. Hobbyist A would tell Hobbyist B, "Not all women are like that. Take ___ for instance..." But Hobbyist B, our cynic with the bad attitude, the blocked phone and the penchant for cursing at provider and bringing her two week old muffins, would tell Hobbyist A, that he's a sucker.

I have surpassed the learning curve, which I think lasts anywhere from 6 months to a year. In all honesty, I would say I'm a cross between Provider A and Provider B and I think our Girl X is too. I'm mostly A but I speak my mind. I do trust men but I don't trust all men. Felicia Foxx is a definite A or we could say a hard A, meaning she's nowhere near being B. Girl X and I are crossbreeds and this means that we don't want to put up with Hobbyist B so we try not to tap into his market. It's sort of a risk to be wounded, you know and there tend to be more B's in the 200-300 range. I would say there are only 20% of B's in the full line of 200-300 clientele. The rest are A's. But in the 400-500 per hour and up range, there are virtually no B's. Why is this? Well, if you are willing to pay $500 an hour and perhaps book 2 or 3 hours, you love women. You are glad to pay the money because you're turned on by doing it. There is something hot about getting someone self confident and entertainers in the 400 and up range, are definitely that. Now, are there bitches in the high end range, sure. But less of them. Why? Because when you are being paid a grand or more, you don't watch the clock at all. The guy is telling you by virtue of his decision to pay you more than other women charge, that he thinks you are the ultimate shit (that's a good term here). And when you feel that wanted, you are going to ___ all over the ___ and you may even ___ again.

I hope this helps. At the very least, Mathesar will be turned on by my analysis. So I wouldn't say that independence exists in this business. We know where are bread is buttered and the buttering is well appreciated.

HB

...and anybody who admits to a good healthy dump being a turn-on is
top-notch in my book.  Intriguing site...it's nearly convinced me to
contact you about one of your tour city visits.  

Now I find myself wondering if it's real or if it's marketing.
But does it really matter?
I hope you're able to sleep from time to time.

LOL, wow great post by all!  I have to agree with the above except that I do feel very independent.  Those who save their $$$ and can retire at any moment and still live comfortably for an indefinite length of time are truly independent, financially at least.  AND I might add, that is when the business becomes a real pleasure; when you go on an appointment because you just feel like going not because you have to pay a bill.

But, I will agree that this business like most is customer service oriented.  Even the best looking provider will lose business if she does not treat her customers well.  

I consider myself a feminist in so far as I believe I am capable of taking care of myself.  Not that I can live my life without a man.  LOL, tried but toys don?t work for me. ?wink? There will always be a difference between the sexes, I hope anyway.  Equality is a goal but not the rule.  Not everything is created equal in all areas after all. The foundation of balance is the compilation of diverse forces, noble and meek.  

This business truly is between consenting adults and there are no victims.  But both sexes could fall victim in the hands of an unethical person.  I don?t think what we do as consenting adults suggest we are unethical either.  I have never felt like a victim nor have I ever made victims of the friends I have met along the way.  I could have taken advantage of some.  For instance I wouldn?t lie to someone and say I was in love just to get a Mercedes.  I believe in karma and hurting someone like that is just bad karma.   Taking someone?s heart when you know your heart is not available for them is just wrong.  As providers, we are sometimes in the position to do that.  Then there are clients who take advantage of providers.  But on a whole, I have had wonderful experiences.  Why this business makes some bitter while others prosper and have fond memories I am not sure but I see it happen. I am in love with my life right now, being single for the first time since I was 15 and finally sowing my wild oats.  teehehhehehe.  But I know there will come the day when I will have to move on.  ?   I just hope I have found some virile studmuffin to grow old with. I hope we will get to go to Nevada and play with girls at the bunny ranch together.  teehehehhhhehee

I like strong, indy women that are mild mannered and demure.
The women I seek must have different qualities than my wife or I will not return.

In answer to the following.


Questions for clients:
How do you feel about strong, independent women as providers?  
Do you prefer a strong, independent, self-assured provider or
one who's more mild-mannered and demure?  If you're married,
do providers act differently than your wife--and is that part
of what attracts you--a different personality than the one
you live with daily?

Is about CREATING choice for women where there used to be none... not taking choices away. So I do not care if you tell me that I cannot let a man abuse me or I cannot let a man have sex with me or whatever you want to tell me that I CANNOT do... if you are taking choices from me you are not a feminist.

The whole idea of feminism is that women are strong enough and intelligent enough to make their own choices.  Gloria Steinem having sex does not go against her being a feminist.

Yes, I do feel very independant and very strong, but I felt that way long before this biz too.. chicken or egg?

Hugs*
Nicole

WOW! I am impressed. You hit it right on the mark! When I first embarked on this adventure, I didn't know anything. & in retrospect, I can definitly see myself having become a type B girl. But, I was smart, lurked alot; & essentially got lucky by meeting some wonderful gentlemen who gave me invaluable advice right from the start. & I am at the point of contentment & enjoyment of the time spent w/almost everyperson I come into contact with. But it's come from limiting my exposure on the web, & insisting on an initial phone call to see if we'd enjoy each others company. & let me tell you, it's the best idea I've had (outside of my initial decision to get into this realm).

You are 100% right when you say there is no such thing as independence. Everyone depends upon someone. & I would think that your level of happiness in a situation is directly
proportionate to how you treat someone, & that comes directly from your attitude.

Great post!

Lisa

Actually, independent in this sense means not having a boss you have to report to, as in self-employed, doesn't it?  Every business needs its customers, it's a matter of how much of the profits you get to keep and who gets to tell you how you're to conduct that business.

I've always maintained that there are two kinds of hobbyists - those that love women and those that hate women, which is just a "cute" way of saying most of what you've said about attitudes.  I'd also say that there are two types of SP's - those that love men, and those that hate them.

To equate money somehow with love of women is where we part company.  I'd say it's just as likely, perhaps more likely, that spending a lot of money is indicative of a love of materialism, not of people per se. Obnoxious people brag about how much they've spent on this or that, translated to this arena, it's just another game of oneupmanship between the boys on the 19th hole - who can spend more, who can afford more.  More money = more respect only if you value the money as much or more than the gesture.  I think it's about who you are and what you're offering - that's what will determine the kind of clientele you get.

After all, let's get a sense of perspective here.  Debating the relative merits and significance of charging $150/hr vs $500/hr puts us in a pretty rarefied atmosphere.  I can go to the supermarket and have my groceries scanned and bagged by this perfectly lovely woman with a SUPER attitude who's helping to support her family on about $7/hr (I think her husband makes about $12/hr,) - and she's not a clock watcher either.

-Anya