I had initially posted this under her thread, but I thought more guys might read it is I made it a separate thread.

I was trading e-mails with a provider friend of mine the other day, and she mentioned to me that she had been stood up the day before. I said "Really? Man, to make a date and then not show up, that is really weak.", and she said, "No, I didn't mean that way".

It turns out that a guy had been e-mailing with her for a bit, and he suggested they get together for a date, and told her the day and everything.  It was a couple of weeks down the line, and she thought all was fine.  A few days later, he said that he was going to be in her part of town the next day, and he wanted to know if she would enjoy getting together for a short while for coffee or a lunch out (on him) so they could "prime the powder", so to speak.  She figured that as he already commmitted to a date, it would be bad business if she said no, and she said that she would make an exception for him, as he had already made a date with her.

Well, they had lunch somewhere, and two days later he called and cancelled the date, saying that she wasn't exactly what she expected when he had booked the date.

Now, I know, you guys may be thinking it was foolish for her to get together with the guy off the clock, or that if he changed his mind, there must be something wrong with her.  However, this is a provider with excellent reviews.  She told me that she gets several requests a week from guys wanting to "meet" off the clock, and turns them down just because it commits her to working without pay, as well as does not have any guarantee that she wil ever get a date out of it (and they almost never do). I checked with a couple of other providers that I know, and they said they get the same requests all the time.

I myself have been blessed to meet a couple of women "off the clock", but it has always been AFTER we had a paid date together and we talked about doing something together, or it was at THEIR suggestion after knowing each other well enough that they thought it would be fun for them.  I have never considered seriously asking a provider for that.  I have mentioned thinking they would like a particular movie I wanted to see or a restaurant I liked or some music I had, or something like that.  However, I never said more than that because I felt it must put the women in a difficult spot, as they have to be cordial to potential customers, but they have to reserve their time for paying customers (as it is their livelihood). Can you imagine a potential employer asking you to work a day for free to see if you work out first?  That is kind of how it makes most of the women I have talked to feel as well.

Guys, you might think that I am shilling for the women with this thread.  However, I know that most of the women would NEVER say something like this (except Sedona, who obviously has some serious cajones :P...and maybe our resident bad girl, Michelle) because they would be biting the hand that feeds them, yet I know that it is something that bugs most of them, so I decided to post it. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that this something that just isn't fair of us, as potential employers, to ask of our providers. There is plenty of information online for us to make a decision on whether or not to see a provider.  If you put up pictures of your most intimate self and someone said "Could we meet in person and talk about it some more", how would you feel?  If you really like the woman from e-mailing or from the discussion board or whatever, then make a date with her!  If she likes you, then maybe you can talk about "off the clock" things after the first date. This is a business, though...be fair to the people you might employ.

I don't see anything wrong with a pre-date meeting, if it is mutually agreed to, and the provider also has the option of cancelling the date too if she doesn't feel comfortable.  Some providers like this.  The problem here, as I see it, is that the provider didn't realize it was an evaluation, and of course she didn't like the result, and felt rejected.  I think it is fine for a provider to not agree to this kind of thing, or charge for it, but I don't agree that it is inherently "unfair".  I think it is more unfair for a provider to expect the client to "go through with it", knowing he's not into it.  My opinion.

you want your provider friends to turn down these guys' requests so they can spend more 'off the clock' time with you? lol.

i've made some requests to providers (both as new customers and repeats), so some said no, some said yes.  there's nothing wrong with asking.  as you said popular providers get such requests all the time.

Was I a pant tease?  No, but I think "He" was a panty tease.  Meaning that he implied he wanted a date, but wanted the option to say no.  Invited me to ice cream. I don't eat or even like ice cream.  He's doing ME a flavor inviting me to an ice cream date?  Faux pas numero uno!   (Ice cream gives me a forever sinus headache.) And so far, so has he.  Oh, and meanwhile he is trying to negotiate my rate DOWN DOWN DOWN.  But he comes with a reference from a TER lady who said he was nice.  Well now he's capitalizing and branching out?  Hmmmm.

Anyway, of course he wants this ice cream date on my time, and of course I need to spend time getting primped IN CASE he MIGHT hire me.  I tell him that I don't do auditions.  That is why I have a web page and reviews, and if he wants pleasant company, he can pay me for a lunch date, ( at this point I am more than a bit miffed).  

well huff huff huff.  He shore got a nasty at me for being so capitalistic.  Oh, I beg your pardon, shall I be nice and call the kettle a rose?  Ooops I need a harder head for that.

heheheh.




-- Modified on 3/10/2004 12:41:26 AM

I guess if you look at the relationship between the provider and the client as a (potential) employer, employee situation, then what you are saying is probably true.  In which case the clients should be deducting from the fee the appropriate amounts for taxes, etc.

I see the relationship between the provider and the client as more of a consultant-company arrangement, with the client being the company and the provider the consultant selling their expertise.  I an a consultant so I know about this environment, with the companies contracting me for a fee to provide a sevice for a flat or an hourly rate.  I receive calls from companies all the time, and these calls are off the clock, especially when I am trying to sell my services, or if I have already sold the services on a flat rate contract.  Some of these calls are extensive, others are not, but I know that I am going to get them and I adjust my rates accordingly (flat rate contracts have a value calculated for this purpose, hourly I charge).

When initially selling my services to a company, I may spend hours, sometimes days on the phone and at the computer putting together proposals and justifying those proposals to the company, for no pay.  It is also not unusual to spend time before landing a contract negotiating my rates, either hourly or flat.  If I get the contract, that is when the monies start rolling in, but I must sell myself and my services for that to happen.  Since I know that I will be spending time before landing the contract, I adjust my rates accordingly to compensate for the negotiation.

It is no different between a provider and a client, with the client contacting the provider via phone or email to determine if they want to contract for the providers services.  With the limited scope of the conversation because of legal issues, I don't think of it as an outragious request for the client to expect the provider to spend some time on the phone or email so that the client can determine if they want to contract for the services or look for another provider.  That is part of business, and, as far as I am concerned, this industry is a business like any other.

But, the clients have been brainwashed by the providers to accept the fact that all time is money.  Well, it may very well be if the provider gets the contract, but beforehand they must sell.  The providers posted rates should include this negotiation period, just as mine do.  On repeat contracts, where less time is required, my rates are normally lower, but not by much.  Remember, I may spend time selling other customer and not get the contract, so that has to be figured in.  This also should be reflected in the providers repeat rate, or rates for regulars.

It would be nice for a customer to consult my website, send me an email with contracts attached for my services and I start consulting with a minimum amount of communications, but it just doesn't happen.  So, I guess I am saying to the providers that this is the way business is run, so accept it or get a permanent job in some other industry.

Sometimes my employer expects me to travel. I don't get paid for travel time. It's part of the job. And I don't get paid anywhere near $300 per hour.

Y'know what?  T.S.

of a pre-date interview? If you want to get to know her better than schedule a two hour appt. Spend the first hour or half hour just talking. I don't know...The way I see it, most providers are pretty busy. Its a business. You can't go into a restaurant and ask for a pre-taste.

Just my .02 cents

The provider can just say she doesn't want to if that's how she feels.  No harm done.  A pre-date interview works both ways - she can also turn him down for a date if she doesn't get the right vibe.

It seems to come down to how important it is to her to see someone who she clicks with.  Some providers couldn't care less about whether they click with a client - they apparently just see themselves as walking pussies.  Others are more selective abou who they see.

In the dozen years I've been doing this, it has never occurred to me to ask a provider out on an off-the-clock pre date date. It's inconceivable to me that anyone could expect that; I might suggest that an out-call escort meet me in a public place and I'll be the guy with the lampshade on my head. If she likes what she see, we have a drink, a little chit-chat, and proceed to whatever. On the other hand, she may see me and keep going. In actual practice, I've done this once.
I did ask an ATF to join me at my retirement luncheon, but that was after fifteen or more paid dates and one freebie.

Excellent set of observations, SelfDestruct.  Here's my take on it:

Many, many of us hobbyists just love the idea of having a "girlfriend" who's a provider.  The notion of "I'm a special guy to a woman who has sex with [tens, hundreds, etc.] of guys" is a ego-pleaser that's hard to resist.  Not to mention the collateral "I got something for nothing when everybody else has to pay for it."  Personally, I think this is a rather adolescent view of things -- an attitude that hobbyists develop after first experiencing the hobby, but that they lose after a while.

I would bet money (and I'm not a betting man) that most hobbyists would turn red if they knew how many invitations providers got to see them off the clock.  It's constant, and an occupational hazard, according to my sources.

At the same time, however, there can be "off the clock" (more or less) relationships, but if they're to be successful, they require a lot of self-awareness and honesty.  And that, folks, is priceless.

-- Modified on 3/10/2004 8:45:44 AM

...is such a personal matter. I have sympathy for the provider who "lost" the date she thought was already booked. However, this is a forseeable result of this meeting.
  Because the chemistry between two people is something intensely personal (and the nature of the date these two were to have) I am very reluctant to ascribe any kind of motive on the hobbyist's part. That said, it is bad form to make an appointment and not keep it.

your lawyer for a little advise at a cocktail party? When I hire a professional consultant I usually get a free interview/ first meeting before we decide to work together.
This is all part of the cost of doing business. Just be happy if someone wants a date outside of business. It is a good sign, they must like you.

I would think that a pre-date interview would be a complete waste of time for both parties. The first few minutes in a hotel room with a new provider is a highly charged experience that is so rich with fantasies and uncertainties - just a complete package of several different emotions. A pre-date interview would take the edge off of these emotions, I would think.

In my case, there is another factor that gives me a good chuckle when the subject of pre-date meetings comes up. Being an extreme introvert, I think I would turn off enough ladies that they would be the ones doing the cancellations!

Hello! If a provider wasn't capitalistic she wouldn't be a provider, would she?

I think guys who feel they have to meet the girl ahead of time as a sort of "audition" are on the cheap side.

I smile when I read that some here men compare our services to their businesses. We're not talking about a $10,000 fee or a government contract here, guys. We provide simply an hour or so of entertainment, like going to a play on Broadway.

I've only met one guy ahead of time to see how things went. Then we had the appointment, and he underpaid me....it left a bad taste in my mouth.

I wouldn't do it again unless there was a special circumstance.

If you use TER, with the reviews and pictures, you should have a certain idea of what you are getting into when you make an appointment.

Plus, you always have the last resort--if you don't like her when you are at the front door, turn around and leave.

Start over – completely different thoughts here:

Ok, once again, please understand I’m posting on behalf of LOTS of ladies who’ve conveyed some feelings about this.

Please try to understand what I am about to say as I think it’s important to communicate this because it will surprise the men considerably. Actually, ‘shock’ is more accurate. I say it’s important to communicate because in this arena, there are maybe a handful of things that go uncommunicated so often that it creates little ‘rifts’ and misunderstandings, and it’s nobody’s fault.
Ok, no, it’s OUR fault (ladies). And I’d like to rectify that..

But, when you consider that there are things the ladies don’t want to say because they certainly don’t want to ‘look a gift horse in the mouth’ or ‘bite the hand that feeds them’, then you can understand there are a few things that don’t get said.

HERE’S what the ladies have mentioned to me, many (bold) times, and I completely understand their point/s.

In the Mainstream world, if a gentleman asks a lady to meet for a drink, coffee, lunch or dinner, that’s perfectly delightful and all is well. She accepts, declines, whatever, but there is nothing ‘wrong’ with it.
In this arena, depending on a few things, it’s not at ALL the same. In fact, quite the opposite. (bold, italics)

I’ll stop here while you re-read that, and take a breath, before continuing…

Before continuing, we adore you guys. We appreciate the charming, endearing, flirtatious, sweet gesturing you all are so good at doing. We appreciate the thoughtfulness, the caring, the ways you go out of your way to let us know that you’re thinking about us, and anything I would share here is not (meant as) a slap in the face, whatsoever, it’s just to get you to understand how something is perceived, ok?

Have you ever been with a lady, and the whole time she was with you, she talked about how great another (italics) client was? Or, ladies, been with a client, and he talked about how great SoNSo was?  Or, I know guys have mentioned that they were always the ‘friend’ and hated being the shoulder she cried on about her gorgeous, but assh**le BF while they know they would never treat her that way. OK..those are examples of the ‘feeling’ I want you to momentarily capture as I go on..

The idea for the Provider is to make a date. Create business. Yes, there will be exceptions to everything (bold, italics) I say here, and I’m speaking for a large number of ladies, with many variables.

Let me give you a few scenarios.

1)The lady has been corresponding with a guy for a while. He’s not from her city, state, whatever.  The correspondence is going well, and he’s certainly expressed an interest and no indication, certainly, of disinterest. He emails her and says, ‘Guess what? I’m going to be in your city, state, area, whatever, next week and I’d like to buy you lunch’. Now, stop right here, and guys, what do you think the ladies are thinking? It’s Newlywed Game, or whatever game, and you have to predict her response. I mean, you just offered to meet with her and buy her lunch. That’s a nice thing, right? Well, guess what? She’s insulted and hurt incredibly. You might as well have just told her she is not worth your time or your dime, but hey, you’ll at least take her to lunch. Don’t yell at me. I know this is hard, but I’m telling you like it is.

2)Same as Number 1, but the gentleman tells her he is finally coming to her town, has made a date with Dollface, and also would like to meet and buy her a cup of coffee while he’s in town. Ok, I don’t have to explain what just happened to her here. She’s feeling really bad about then, sort of like the StepChild and only worthy of coffee..thanks..no thanks.

You get the idea. The point is, if you want to show her you’re interested, then make a date. That’s what tells her you’re interested. If you want to know what most ladies think and say, it’s this: “I can get my own coffee, lunch or dinner! It’s the DATE I’m after!” Nothing spells interest better than booking an appointment.

Again, there are exceptions…it’s not callous, it’s not ungrateful, it’s the perception of the gesture. An offer of coffee, lunch or dinner is taken as DISINTEREST. That IS how it’s taken. Plain and simple. Because fact of the matter is, 99.9% of the time, nothing EVER comes from it! I’ve not met a single woman who has gotten a subsequent date as a result.

Most ladies will say, yeah, I don’t mind the ‘off the clock meetings’ if they ALSO book appointments - one off the clock time for every one or two appointments, kind of thing. After all, we ladies DO like you, DO enjoy the company.

That’s the point of what I believe most of the ladies feel this topic is about. Not so much who’s the employer, who’s interviewing, yada yada because most won’t even consider meeting at all if the meeting is a ‘preview’ – you’re either interested, or you’re not.

All men, myself definitely included, are visual animals (I don't mean animalistic) Beyond that common thread, each of us comes from a different place. With some money is no object, while with others dropping $300 or $400 takes some serious financial planning.  Some want to hedge their bets (by meeting first) to see if the lady in the picture is the real deal, physically mostly.  Many of the rest of us others look at the websites, read the reviews, contact the provider and go from there.  It may not always turn out exactly like we want, but who said it was a perfect world?  I agree with many of the previous comments.  If I'm a provider, I'm not interested in a test drive.  TER has removed so much of the mystery and uncertainty when it comes to provider information.  When a provider consistently rates 8's, 9's, and even 10's, and you've seen several intimate and provocative photos, what else is there to know?  Does she have yellow teeth, bad breath, or smelly feet?  Chubby fingers? I say give the women a break.  Through TER we have the advantage of a tremendous amount of info on many, many providers. I've often wondered what balls it must take to knock on a door and have no concrete idea who will be answering it.  Honestly, I couldn't do it and my hat goes off to you women that have obviously been very successful doing it.  
Anyway, I got off the subject.  Before the days of TER and the internet, there wasn't much more than your own experience, a little word of mouth, and a bunch of phone numbers in the back of the city weekly.  Back then, I could be a little more understanding of the "test drive." But not now, and those who ask for it are basically cheap asses.

Your response had me baffled.  

I keep hearing on this board from both providers and clients that this is a business.  Well, I run a consulting business and part of selling yourself to get business is lunch, dinners and drinks with prospective clients.  Additionally, I maintain several websites with more credentials than should ever be requires.  In spite of the entertainment and the websites, I sometimes do not get the business, after working my a** off for the sale.  I am not "insulted and hurt incredible" because emotions do not enter into it, it's business and I move on to the next client.  

What your post seems to indicate is that the providers want it one way, they have put up the websites and if you want anything to do with them at all, you pay for their time, whether it's lunch or a date.  Well, that is not the way that business normally works, unless you are dealing with the goverment, in which case you charge them for the time and expenses.

As far as the providers thinking " “I can get my own coffee, lunch or dinner! It’s the DATE I’m after!” Nothing spells interest better than booking an appointment."  Well, nothing spells interest to me better than a contract, but still I have to have coffee, lunch or dinner during the selling process.

It appears that you are saying that "This is a business, but normal procedures and practices followed for selling the business merchandise do not apply."  Maybe we need a provider definition of "business" since it seem to be different than the rest of the worlds definition.

I don't make it a habit of seeing anyone unless we've already been on a date. Too many people out there are looking for a free, quick fix and it takes up a lot of time. I have, however, met a friend for lunch or dinner after we've seen each another and if I feel comfortable around him and enjoy his company.

Hugs,
Ciara

Is no.

This is in the negative. This is not an abbreviation for nitric oxide.

But for a certain NIN lover I know, I think you better have 2 tickets ready and cute undies in case you get lucky.

I am trying to be good. Its hard. My foot is stuck in my mouth.

One of my favorite lines was "Let's meet for lunch!!!" - never really considering it was lunch but a code so anyone listening in would misunderstand!!!
OK Sedona, so now you've put me in a quandary!!! (I will admit that this phrase is used for certain folks I know, though).

The problem with pre-date interviews seems to be the same everywhere.  

I've avoided meeting men this way after a few accepted dates then realizing the code phrase for "meet for drinks" = "I can't afford this hobby"

Sedona,

I think that is the reason I would never ask a provider out to dinner or for a drink before of after. I might tease to add to the fantasy, but never expect the pre or post "date" to go through. For me it should be on the clock or nothing at all.

I can say that there have been many many times that I have thought about some of the ladies that I have met and thought how much they might have enjoyed something I've run across, but I never act on it. Mostly because I understand in the end it is a job and I am a means to an end. Don't get me wrong, in many ways it is a mutual thing.

With all of that said, I hold dear to my heart several ladies here and would consider it an honor to be called a friend by them, but I would never ask for "free" time.

Ok, my thoughts on this.  I've been in this "hobby" a number of years.  I really only have one rule prior to seeing a lady (no matter how good her reviews are).  It is an absolute must that I speak to her on the phone prior to us meeting for the first time.  I can ususally tell almost immediately as to whether we are going to "click".  I always preface in an initial email requesting the appointment that I must speak with her on the phone prior to us meeting.

The top ladies always seem to be happy to hear from you and really show you that they want to meet you and appreciate your business.  After all, unless you are rolling in money, this is a very expensive hobby for us.  Their manner on the phone is crucial to me.  Now, obviously, it can be an act.  But, I've never run into a lady yet that has put such a good act on that I couldn't tell the difference.  The call doesn't have to be long.  Usually no more than 10-15 minutes.  For me, it just reaffirms the fact that I have made a good choice.  

Now as to meeting for lunch, coffee or whatever prior to a date, it is certainly a ladies choice to meet up.  A guy really has no right to expect it.  To me, if every guy that books a lady for an appointment wanted a pre-meeting, the lady may not have time during the day to conduct her "real" appointments.  

Remember, we all seem to forget that first impressions always are lasting impressions.  So, a lady will probably need to spend at least 1 hour before hand fixing herself up to impress some guy enough for him to book a date.  On top of the travel time and such.

Of course, a face to face meeting is always preferable.  We would all love that.  But in my opinion, it isn't practical from the ladies standpoint.  And remember guys, these wonderful ladies have "lives" outside of this biz.  We always seem to forget that.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on this. Remember, do your homework, treat the lady with kindness and respect, and you will be amply rewarded.  It's never failed for me.

Bond

You're right I was shocked...I had no idea you ladies thought of an intitial meeting for coffee or a drink as an insult...I guess that was because I couldn't imagine setting up a meeting like that myself and then NOT having the date but you say 99.9% of those meeting end with no appointment afterward...jeez

I was all set to say maybe the men are conditioned to want to meet face to face first...even if it's just for a drink like in a bar pick up where you buy the girl a drink or two and later once you think she's interested you ask the your place or mine kind of thing but if after a couple of drinks you were to say well it was nice talking to you and walk off I can see the woman being total confused and pissed off(in the real world women like to be the ones who say yes or no)

In the fantasy world we as hobbiests and providers inhabit...the yes or no is decided by the man simply by his act of contacting the woman he wants to have an appointment with in the first place and the woman never even knows who has decided for whatever reason to look elsewhere...she has every reason to expect once he meets her the decision has already been made that the appointment will take place...to actually meet her THEN reject her...yeah I can see how that would make her mad(to say the least)

The only explanation I have for those men's behavior is that these guys were not really planning to make an appointment in the first place or maybe they have visions of the woman being so taken with their charm that she'll offer to do him for free if she just has a chance to get to know him

I certainly wouldn't do that myself(ask for an off the clock initial meeting)...I do however like to exchange at least a couple of emails and speak to her on the phone beforehand to get to know her and her me but that's just because I figure the more comfortable she is before we meet the more comfortable she will be once we are alone together for the first time

you're a gem, r_bear...what a gentleman

The glow of a session often lingers with certain gentlemen. If they were to offer an off the clock meeting afterwards, I would be very tempted to take them up on it.

But, that's usually not the wisest course of action (marital situations, etc.)...so it's best to keep such thoughts to yourself, but know we often have the same thoughts as well.

I have met with clients (previous clients), off the clock, and had a great time I don't mind being asked by them, for I love knowing that they were thinking about me in a kind light As for those who I haven't had the pleasure of meeting, I would actually turn down a pre-get-to-know-you lunch/dinner, because I just wouldn't feel comfortable doing it. If someone is seeking to meet me, they will need to schedule an appt., and if they should want to do something off the clock (go to a movie, dinner, lunch, or for drinks), I would be happy to do so

Mel

is the 'element of surprise'.

When mass numbers of ladies had realized they don't get a date out of the 'pre-meetings' ever, both the ladies and gents wonder, well, maybe it wasn't what they expected, and both seem disappointed.

But guess what? It isn't that she/he wasn't what they expected, it's that they burst the bubble that is the 'element of surprise' and that piece is very important to the success of this Game.

Much of what makes this fun and exciting is the opening of the door and the adrenaline rush you both get when first meeting, and keeping that going in what happens in the first few minutes. This is a fantasy world, and this is how best it works.

To meet beforehand, is something you do in Mainstream dating, and to combine it with the fantasy of the Game, does not work.

Just as gents will offer to email me pictures of themselves beforehand so I'll see what they look like. I decline. I know it 'ruins' it for me. Not because I don't like their looks, or it's not what I expected (right?) but because it burst that bubble and that's the bubble you want to keep going. Does this make sense?

You gotta go with what 'works' and avoid what doesn't.
I agree wholeheartedly that a few minutes on the phone is a good idea, and it's a good idea because it works. He feels more at ease hearing her voice and sensing her as a person/personality, and the element of surprise and anticipation (even more now, as hearing a voice is a tease) are very much intact.

I appreciate you saying you were shocked and didn't realize that we are hurt and insulted. I felt that, after two years, it was apparent the gents had no idea.

Having a date FIRST, and then maybe joining him for a drink another time is fine - because that works. He's already shown her that he 'values' her and she is more likely to want to.

Thanks for your input.

Sedona

If I wanted to go have coffee or a drink or a meal with a woman, I'd go with my SO, or I'd get on match.com and find someone to have coffee with.  

And I like the idea of having a DATE with a provider that starts with a meal, or a drink, or something like that I just love the idea of undressing the provider in my mind, I love musing over how the way she holds a glass or tilts her head when I say something might correlate with other moves later on.  But that's all premised on its being a DATE -- yes, I'm paying for that time; it's part of the foreplay.

So guys, get real: if you want a dating service, there are plenty out there...but this ain't the place!

Yes, you could say providers are independent contractors/consultants, but there are important differences.

We provide personal services, not business services such as software design, architectural floorplans, databases or financial advice (although I do have a Series 7 license, so I could give financial advice after my wonderful BBBJ, LOL.)

You can also think of us as short term entermtainment,like going to a fine restaurant or to a concert. It's a one time, relatively inexpensive item, costing about $300 or so.

Contrast that to the thousands of dollars you will receive as a business consultant in your industry. Yes, you had to meet several times for lunch and work on a proposal, but if you win the contract, the money will roll in, as you said. You wouldn't do all that for just $300, would you?