I've been thinking about LE's "War On Prostitution" going on all over the country. This board is so helpful at reporting "stings" that LE conducts in many Cities/States. While reading the boards I began to think about this situation and whether LE knows what they are really doing... I'm not an economist and I dont pretend to know "exactly" how the economy works but... What is LE going to gain by putting thousands of girls out of work?

If LE "REALLY" stopped prostitution all over America and it came to a halt, it would be like massive layoff's at an automotive plant or some other industry that employs thousands of people. Hundreds (Thousands) of women would suddenly be unemployed.

A. This is a business, and our lively hood like any other job. We pay our Rent/Mortgages, Car Payments, Insurance, Buy Groceries, Shop at the local Mall...etc. We put our money back into the economy, we're not a burden on the economy.

B. Providers with children (Whether they work the streets, work for an agency, work at a "ranch" or are independents) ARE NOT on Welfare. They are not clogging the court system chasing after deadbeat dads. They are taking care of their children themselves without the assistance of the government. They are not in homeless shelters or womens shelters using taxpayers money.

C. Providers single handedly keep Victoria's Secret and Fredricks in business! Geesh, the money we spend on Lingerie! LOL! (joke...but not too far from the truth)

Okay, so my point is...If LE arrested me and put me out of business for a few weeks, my rent is due, my bills need to be paid...what good does arresting me do? If I'm not mistaken (and I might be mistaken) a "Ho Charge" (Prostitution Charge) is just a midemeanor in most States and is not too much worse than a traffic ticket. I dont see LE prosecuting "J" Walkers or Speeders as aggressively as they go after Providers.

Why does LE chase Providers so aggressively? It's the MONEY. The money is the real issue. The Government cant Tax or Regulate our industry so they condemn us...all they have to do is legalize (or at least de-crimminalize) the industry...I'LL PAY MY TAXES! But why would I be motivated to pay my taxes if I'm going to be arrested!

And the "Moral" issue is a bunch of "bs". You cant tell me that a country that allows me to be a SLUT can have a problem with me being a "HO". It's legal to be a swinger...give it away for free and its okay. So many women and men OUTSIDE of the industry DONT wear condoms etc and are spreading STD's just as much as some providers are. Besides, providers have more of an incentive NOT to contract an STD because OUR BODY IS THE MERCHANDISE, we have to keep our bodies healthy - Its damn hard to sell defective merchandise.

You cant tell me that a country that has a massive teenage pregnancy problem, that has STD problems OUTSIDE the Provider community, that says pornography (Magazines, Movies, Videos) to be LEGAL, can say that PROSTITUTION should be illegal. This is not the Taliban, I dont have to hide under a Berka (spelling) and remain a virgin or else I'll be imprisoned or killed. THIS IS THE U.S.A...I'm FREE to be a Slut...I'm even free to be a HO as long as I dont ask for compensation.

There may be an error in my thinking...What say you?????

my .02 cents

Sable






-- Modified on 6/14/2002 7:28:08 PM

-- Modified on 6/14/2002 7:30:51 PM

I wrote on a previous string concerning legal prostitution in Nevada about how unbelievable I think it is that prostitution hasn't been legalized everywhere, so the government could get their hands on all the money - I have an educated theory on that:
http://theeroticreview.com/msgBoard/ViewMsgBody.asp?BoardID=12&Page=2&Messageid=22258

The government doesn't make money on busting escorts. They are not deluding themselves that they could ever obliterate it. But some politicians have religious beliefs and a fundamentalist election base that they need to make a show for. I think the prostitution busts that aren't about drugs, child endangerment or reported as a public nuisance, are strictly about moralistic politics.
riker

You should read PJ O'Rourke's classic book, named (ironically) "Parliament of Whores." It should be required reading in every high school government class. Best treatise on how the government really works I have ever read.

I live in the DC area and was involved in government relations (OK,lobbying) for 16 years. I finally got sick of it. Everything the politicians do is for one purpose and one purpose only -- to get re-elected. They could care less if what they do leaves us better or worse off, as long as they are better off. As Frank Zappa once said, "They just watch out for #1. And #1 ain't you. You ain't even #2!" And Democrats are no different than Republicans.

Sex workers are an easy target as 1) they rarely shoot back, and 2) they have no DC lobbyists (hey, I'll take that job gratis!!!).

Our hobby is actually written right into the Declaration of Independence -- if our hobby doesn't qualify as the "pursuit of happiness" nothing does. Since old Jefferson was a hobbyist himself, that may even have been what he intended by that phrase. It's an historic fact that Frankin and Adams had Jefferson's wife transported from Virginia to Philly to relieve his tension while he was writing the Declaration. Don't know if Greek was spoken during that visit, but French was, I'll bet!

-- Modified on 6/14/2002 10:20:24 PM

-- Modified on 6/14/2002 10:22:11 PM

Well, sort of anyway. In the same way that somone who has a BSc in Biology is a biologist even though they work in Marketing.

LE does not respond to market forces. Everything you have said is true to at least some extent. You are a part of the economy and are producing something for your customers which they value enough to exchange their money for. You then spend this money on other things.

But like I said, LE does not care about market forces, and in all honesty it is not their job to. There are laws which say (rightly or wrongly) that prostitution is illegal. In general, they are charged with the enforcement the laws not in formulating public policy. They go after people engaging in prostitution same as they would pull people over for going 70 on the freeway back when the law said you couldnt go over 55. Some dick decided that I cant drive in a certain lane in the freeway unless I have two people in my car, and if I do they will charge me $275.

The government intrudes in too many of our private dealings. If I want to work for you for $3/hour to mow your lawn, the government will send the police to stop me and arrest you for violating minimum wage laws. But if I do it for free, its fine. They have decided that there are certain prices that I am not allowed to sell my labor for.

I am with you on not getting hassled though. I sympathize about the fear of LE. It doesnt put you in an enviable position and you should be free to make your own decisions.

There are plenty of radical left wing feminists who are completely against the legalization of prostitution as well.

It aint just bible thumpers. There are plenty of sectors who have beliefs they want to impose on others.

Now we have a problem." Well, that actually sounded more like my uncle Mo trying to impersonate Cardinal Mahony, but you get the idea.

that are the biggest hypocrites in these discussions. They attempt to project their beliefs on everyone around them (to hear them tell it, they're without sin of course) and if that means via government enforcement, so much the better.

Zealots like Attorney General Ashcroft feel that it's their duty to protect us from ourselves. I can only imagine the pressure that employees at the DOJ are feeling, deciding whether or not to attend the voluntary pray meetings that Ashcroft holds at his offices(I'm not kidding, he does hold prayer meetings at work).

The other point is there are vastly different kinds of prostitution, ranging from attractive, health concious call girls/escorts to street walking crack whores caring less about who they infect with HIV. So although there may be positive economic influences as a results of escorting, there are negative consequences as well. Street walkers drive away customers, scare people and depress an area economically. Complicated issue, MfSD.

Sweet Sable, this topic of discussion is "lively".  For most part, I echo the sentiments posted.

I think its about time we as a country re-evaluate certain antiquated laws.  I think it is ridiculous to have laws that are solely based on morality and ethics.  Unfortunately, this is the trump card for the politicians.  They exploit it without consideration of the general consensus of the people who elected them to office.

There are so many laws that infringe upon personal beliefs and view.  Take for instance, a women's right to choose.  The State government, as well as the White House are filled with politician who project themselves to be fundamentalist inorder to further their politican agenda.  

I had written a response to a similar post ...




-- Modified on 6/15/2002 8:15:26 AM

-- Modified on 6/15/2002 8:17:02 AM

2 Main reasons :

1. You don't pay taxes on the dollars that you make.  True you'll spent the money and it would help boost the economy but Federal and State governments rather see tax dollars, that's why prostituion is still legal in Nevada.

2. John Ashcroft.  This guy prays every morning with his staff before starting work, which means anything that he thinks is not Puritan enough, he'll go after it with a vengence.

that's my 2 cents.

Number 1, prostituion has generated so much money for Neveda, it's almost impossible for the State to do without it, not that they don't want to.  Ask any State rep. or Senator in Neveda.

Hello, my friend.  Weren't we just talking about this??

We have forgotten what it means to have free will.
We have forgotten what it means to do right rather than follow directions.
We have forgotten how to avoid mistaking kitch for art.
We have forgotten how to avoid mistaking sentimentality for honest emotion.
We have forgotten what ecstacy means.  (I know you know I don't mean MDMA, either.)
We have forgotten how to tell the truth.
We have forgotten how to care.
We have forgotten why it was important to have a seperation between Church and State.
We have forgotten that there is a difference between rendering unto Ceaser and rendering unto God.
We have forgotten that we can have a good time without hurting anyone.
We have forgotten that we were given a conscience so that we could make our own choices without hurting anyone.
Out of desperation for direction and meaning, we have ceded our rights to the pious judgements of others.
We have forgotten what it means to be mature.  It is so much easier to be a perpetual child.

Here's an excerpt from my post on previous string:

"On the other side, Nevada lobbyist work hard in other States against legalizing prostitution because they don't want to lose their monopoly. So with fundamentalists, organized crime, gambling empires and State governments all working to keep prostitution illegal throughout the country, it's really a no win if your on the legalization side of the debate."

I write about the economy and have a minor in stats.  For the past couple of years I've done some very rough stats on MN (recently posted on twin cities board).  At current estimated levels the state would take in approx $15mm annually in taxes if prostitution were legalized and taxed.  It's probable that the marketsize would increase if it were legalized (both due to current locals and out of towners partaking more and a increase in convention business).  $35mm annual tax revenue is not out of the realm of possibility for MN.  Can you imagine CA, GA, NY, DC, VA?

-- Modified on 6/15/2002 10:41:33 AM

And that's tip of the iceberg.

Think about the revenues the state, local, and federal government would gain in:

1.  Licensing fees (massage/escort)
2.  Regular doctor visits to maintain certification (clean bill of health)
3.  Reduction in LE force to focus on other vital issues.  In addition, over time there would be a significant reduction in sexually related crimes.

Now, add strippers to the mix.  These vixen dancing in gentlemen's club clear some serious $$$ in tips as well.  On an average in CA these strippers clear well over $ 1,500 - $ 2,000 a night!

Oops! Almost forgot the FBSM therapists. Most are not licensed, and its cash and carry.

Oh! Come on . Just because you pray every day doesn't make you a good Christian.

Almost everybody knows Ashcroft to be a radical fundamentalist.  In his home state, there were strong accusations of his racist attitude.  During his confirmation tons of "skeltons in the closet" were unveiled.

His confirmation was strictly because of the conservative views Republicans wanted to enforce in our country.  

Yes! Prostitution was illegal before Ashcroft came into office.  However, he has spent several million tax-payer dollars to curtail prostitution.

Now, here's the irony!  In Washington DC, many Congressmen, and Senators have been caught with their drawers down - literally.

Several powerful folks such as Gary Hart, Newt Gingrich, Gary Condit, Bill Clinton, the ex-mayor of NY city - Gulliani to name a few were all caught in the act of impropriety (ex-marital affair).

Being a HYPOCRITE is not the answer.

 




-- Modified on 6/15/2002 5:03:20 PM

blame him for prostitution being illegal. Like I said, MAKE YOUR SHOTS LEGIT...... it shouldn't be hard.

You assume that legalization will be benficial because the hobby will now be taxed. Do you realy believe that the politicians will spend this new found tax money more wisely than the escorts who pay it would? I don't think so. The underground economy helps the USA more than the taxed economy.

I agree that the money we keep and spend ourselves benefits the economy more than the tax dollars that are collected, run through the bureaucratic administrative mill and redistributed to the undeserving. But in this context, I'm not looking at the benefit of legalizing prostitution - I'm only looking at all the money as a motivation for the government to legalize it. Where is all that wondrous greed that drives the development of so many laws, tax structures and government programs?

American’s have forgotten their true heritage.  During the 1860’s, there were several bordellos along Pennsylvania Avenue in D.C. to accommodate the solders and statesmen visiting. Prostitution was not outlawed until the early 20th Century and as a result of the women’s suffrage and the emerging religious influence of the political process.

The term Hooker, is from General Hooker, a Union officer, who hired courtesans for his troops while they were encamped in Louisville at the end of the Civil War.  There were few local providers and the few were overworked giving concern for their and the solders health.  So Gen. Hooker hired providers from all over the northeast and had them put up in the finest hotels and homes in the area.  I do not know if he had financial gain from it, but I would assume so. In most of the expanding western towns, the Madam and providers were the principal healthcare providers.  They did midwifery, surgery, and helping with all manor of illness. There were no local hospitals or physician to go to.  These Madams gave generously to the communities, bringing performing art performances, art exhibits, and other cultural events to these out of the way towns. In most of these towns, the Madam and providers were not demoralized until the evangelical ministers and missionaries started their slow conversion of the people and governments.

The Civil War, the same as WTC last year, created such a physic shock to the masses that it was ripe for the evangelical Christians to gain power in the political parties and start there attack on the Bill-of-rights, of which they detested because they were not able to lobby the continental congress to mandate Protestant Christianity as the national religion to shut out Catholicism. We have now reached such apathy of the masses and a collective mind set that there is a fear of being labeled unchristian or anti-Christian.  Jerry Farwell, Pat Robertson, and the very wealthy Mormon Church have done a very good job with their stealth attack on the political system.

As most have alluded to, politicians are the servants of money, the grotesque need for large amounts of money to retain their power and prestige. Attacking social behavior labeled as immoral is an easy and quick way to get noticed and have something tangible to show the continuants they are doing something.  As long as Americans are willing to give their independence and freedom away for security, safety and social order, we will become what we despised of the Soviet Union, i.e. mono-political ideology and the suppression of civil liberties.  Attny Gen. Ashcroft has done a very good job of promoting this movement and uses the fear of future terrorism to gain greater power and control over the populace.  If the Bush administration is allowed to continue this assault on the Bill of rights and he is re-elected, Orwell’s 1984 will have arrived, and we will never be free until a bloody civil war is again thrust upon this country. It won’t be in my lifetime, but our grandchildren’s.

Lets enjoy what limited freedom we have today and be aware that LE wants nothing more than to restrict that freedom for their own power quest.



-- Modified on 6/16/2002 9:55:08 PM

In Europe, where prostitution is legal there is a marked decline in sexually related crimes.  

It helps in controlling the spread of STD and AIDS. Providers are tested every month.  

Millions of $$$ spent on vice sqads, etc. can now be rechannelized.  Our better yet!  Refunded to the tax-payers (wishful thinking).

Well stated my friend!

I can't agree with you more that the motive is the government's lack of ability to get their hands on any "taxable income" from this profession.
I truly believe that the reason that the government goes after heroin dealers/users so hard is because some drug company has enough congressman in their pocket to keep methadone as the preferred "treatment".
I have a family member who got hooked on that smack, and they tried methadone at first.  Methadone is nothing but the government's way of getting the addict's money to the drug company rather than the street dealer.
I have a feeling that when Robertson & his 700 Club fall out of the public eye with his retirement...(gotta be soon? Isn't he like 90?), then maybe the grassroots movement to get this hobby legalized could move forward. When legalized, and the feds think they can get some of the $$...they'll give up this harrassment of providers..net

Take a look at what the "bible belt" public is voting down in Georgia...

http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/opinion/woman/0602/07.html

Intriguing articles! Thank you for sharing.
The world's oldest profession is in fact so old that our old contemporary adage "prostitution is the world's oldest profession" is laughably understated and obvious.
Any individual, let alone any organized group is severely deluding themselves if they think that any law or action is going to have even the slightest effect on the practice of providing companionship in exchange for money.
We might as well legalize it and run the taxes through the system.

Dammit, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks it is absolute insanity for me to have to turn over 30% of my income to the state, most of which goes for programs and things that I do not even agree with.  Grumblemumble... I really have no desire for them to tax me MORE, and you can bet they would if the laws changed just a SMIDGE.  I'd rather see it decriminalized, but not LEGALIZED... legalized implies *state control* and the last thing I want is a damn government pimp. (No offense, but the concept makes me furious!)  There's a scary misconception in this world that if *only* the state would take control of everything, everything would be a-ok. RIGHT! Because our politicians are honest, upright citizens, right???? OMG!!!!!

There are drawbacks on both sides of this equation... and decriminalization from my perspective, would be the ideal, but I know there is no way in hell THAT will happen.  If they legalize it, they'll do their best to make it an income not even worth having by virtue of requiring various licenses, special taxes, etc.  Regardless, it will never happen... at least, it's unlikely to happen in my lifetime!  

Hugs*
Nicole

The streetwalker vs. callgirl/escort issue is that complicated to resolve... in Canada, streetwalking is illegal while being an escort is not...

Hugs*
Nicole

Aint Nobodys Business If You Do:  The Absurdity of Consentual Crimes in Our Free Country
by Peter McWilliams
you'll learn something, even if it's you are not the only one in the world who is sane.
play safe,
Nicole

It is a great book.  It is available to read on-line.

www.mcwilliams.com/books/aint/toc.htm