http://wizbangblog.com/content/2007/10/22/alpha-females-get-off-your-high-horse.php

A close friends daughter.  She's a venture capitalist and makes big bucks.  She has what I call "penis envy"...she wants to be a guy.  She talks tough, acts like she could whip the front line of the New England Patriots and generally is (well if she was a guy, I'd say "asshole") is a bitch.   She looked for 20 years!!! to find a guy to marry and finally - at 41 - she snagged a guy.  Her biological clock was almost run down and she wanted a husband..now.

My vocation brings me into contact with a lot of very smart and very driven women who make decisions about a lot of money.  A few are the women depicted in this article.

Lest I be accused of a woman hater (duh...me?! - I LOVE women  I meet a LOT of men who think because they went to "the right school" that they know everything.

And no, they don't.

... and frankly, why wouldn't we be totally honest anyways (I mean, duh, this is an anonymous online message board)?: Powerful and successful women DO intimidate me.  Believe me, I wish it weren't true, but I can't help but feel somewhat intimidated.  Women will be earning more than men on average by the middle of this century, so it's a reality we're just going to have to accept.  In fact, in NYC and a few other US cities, women are already earning more than men do.  And, for the first time ever, the graduating class of Harvard is majority-female, which is quite a milestone.  

I live in NJ, a state famously sandwiched between the high-earning cities of NYC and Philadelphia, and therefore one of the wealthiest and most-educated states in America.  So I am truly surrounded by educated, highly-paid, successful, empowered women.  It just makes it all the more difficult to live up to their standards -- it raises the bar, if you will.

But don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want their progress to be halted.  All people deserve to try to reach their full potential, regardless of how others will view them in the dating world.

Unless they have a direct bearing on my financial future they are like anyone else in a position of power. They have my respect for what they've done (whether ill-gotten or not), but life breaks down to two doors in my eyes.

One door is marked "WOMEN" and the other "MEN". Everyone does the same thing behind it. (OK... I was in a place once that had a third door...."OTHER")

I have only had one issue with a woman in power. She ruined a company when she tried to make the company take on her identity instead of the other way around.

but the quick answer is, social status doesn't mean a thing unless you let it.

People mate for a lot of screwed up reasons.  The biggest mistake is get the notion that you can own the other person, as if they were another of your possessions.

Relationships that go down that road (and that is probably most of them) and doomed to fail by either breaking up, or a long life of unfullfilled expectations.

It's all so sad, and it took me a long time to finally get it but the best relationships are those where you are not trying to fill a need but rather make it a point to offer the service of your love to the other for no other reason than it feels right to do so.

in terms of being hypercompetitive, etc. and unconsciously seek a SO who can help them become more balanced. Unfortunately, as that balance is achieved, many find that the reason for the attraction disappears.

How do you defined ill-gotten ?

If there is no malice involved .... is it still ill-gotten ?

It  appears that you consider money from this business ill-gotten.

Am I correct in making that statement ?

I am curious what your perspective is .....

xo Lisa



-- Modified on 10/23/2007 4:18:17 PM

Most of your posts talk about women and money.  Now you admit that you feel threatened by powerful women.  I'm glad I'm not a provider in NJ.

I know a provider that is an alpha female...she's smart as hell, sexy as can be, makes a lot more than I do & could intimidate guys. Does she intimidate me?...hell no! After the bedroom action I love a woman that expands my world & she's given me a perspective on things that I wouldn't have without my interaction with her. She's educated & has gone head to head with men in the business world very successfully. She'd be successful in any venture she embarked on & she was smart enough to determine providing was the best fit @ this time. We've discussed options that she's considering after providing & she has some great ideas that I'm sure will be very successful. She said it very nicely..."you can be smart & sexy too". As for the discussion...I couldn't be in a relationship where the partners aren't equal. As they say the brain is the greatest sex organ & when two folks are boinkin each with give & take it doesn't get much better. Just a thought.

What I find amusing is that many of those successful women (at least the ones I met), still feel that the man should be the "primary" provider. I am sure that doesn't make it much easier to find a potential partner either

I've seen and heard over and over again, this same type of thinking.

It's an epidemic I tell you!

It's also a real shame.


Women think that they are "empowering" themselves, when really, all they are doing is running from their own fears and insecurities.


If you're competing with men, then you aren't being a woman.

A woman could never truly compete with a man, just like a man could never truly compete with a woman.

We are innately different, and have completely different natures, and it's this crazy, IDIOTIC notion (AGAIN, political correctness ladies and gentleman!!) of "equality" being pursued, that is nothing but a wild goose chase.

How do you become "equal" with someone whom, BY NATURE, is completely different than you????


Would someone please explain that to me?

I would say I feel more "intimidated" rather than "threatened."  Certainly, it doesn't bother me that there are women who earn lots of money or have high-powered jobs, etc.  But it makes me feel slightly uncomfortable to approach them casually.  So it wouldn't bother me at all to be on opposite ends of a business negotiation with a woman, or to share a boardroom with a woman.  But I doubt that I'd want to share my bed with that same woman.  Lots of guys feel the same way, and we are all going to have get used to this.  The times are changing, and for the better, I might add.  I would never want to roll back the clock on the progress women have made, under any circumstances.

that may be true that women are generally getting to new measures of success in the business world, but there are all kinds of "success"....


While these women are "going for theirs", you know where the success is NOT being acheived?


IN THE HOME.






and excuse me, but if we hadn't created this LOONEY politically correct society, I hardly think that women would be outdoing men the way that they seem to be doing now....


but that's what happens, when special interest groups, pit men and women AGAINST each other, and create a destructive competition amongst us..


if things go full boar, all the way towards this false notion of "equality", at some point, when RESULTS are the only thing considered in business, men are again going to be the ones "on top", but at that point, there won't be any chivalry consideration.


Women can compete with men in a PC environment, but if you take away all of the kid glove artificial rules, it's a totally different ballgame.


I'm NOT saying that women are not intelligent!!!


But if you REALLY want to "compete" or have a competition?


A man's nature is that of leadership, provider, and warrior.

A woman's isn't.


It's as simple as that.



It's a shame though, that society or special interest groups, have created such insecurity about women being women, to where instead they feel that they have to be men.


And then they wonder why they can't find a man??????????????????????



Scottie, 1 to beam up.

Be careful Aug, you might be surprised where that rabbit trail leads...

It is equality of opportunity, respect and status these women want.  You become equal by giving equal respect in conversation and judgment, equal rights to a job based on ability rather than genitalia.  It's really as simple as that.

"Women think that they are "empowering" themselves, when really, all they are doing is running from their own fears and insecurities."

If you substitute the word "men" for "women" at the beginning of that sentence it would make as much sense, that is if you want to criticize men for the drive and commitment it takes to become a big-time business success.

"If you're competing with men, then you aren't being a woman."  

Horseshit.  A woman who competes with men is not a woman as YOU  define her. More accurately it is a woman you don't prefer.  

But I don't expect to change your mind with reason.  If I showed you 1,000 successful business women who are glad to be women, like men, and don't want to BE men, no doubt you still wouldn't believe them. You would believe they really have penis envy and really just want to be men.  YOU know them better than they know themselves, of course.

I just hope she wouldn't resent me watching Oprah all day, and bitching about the neighbor's dog barking waking me up at 10am.

Seriously, I find an intelligent, strong willed woman incredibly sexy.  I just wish more of them felt the same way about me.

That's genius right there.....


Anyways, what you said sounds very nice, but unfortunately it's a utopian pipe dream instead of being based in reality.


Where in life, is their true "equal opportunity"?

I'm sorry my friend, but I grew up in the rough areas of Long Beach, with no support or guidance.

I don't cry about it, but I did NOT have the same opportunity, as my boss who comes from a rich family, and has uncles and a dad, who all support, guide and open doors for him.


So this "equal opportunity" theory that you're striving for, is a misnomer.


Opportunity is sometimes what YOU make....

but if you are going to constantly go around with a political agenda about it, well then that's all you are doing...


The ideals you have picked up and are now spouting, are nothing more than a special-interest, political agenda.


One of the problems of it though, is that you want to grant things like "opportunity", "respect", "status" to someone based simply on their gender.

Respect is earned.

Opportunity is what you make.

Status is in the minds of those who create the labels.



So what I'm trying to educate you on, is that those who are pushing this political agenda, are striving for a false notion of "equality".


If you don't know the history of this movement, it is based on basically -  bitter, abused, angry women.  Many (if not most), hate or are very hostile towards men (which is very amusing to note, that these same folks love to throw the "misogynist" label around, but I digress..).

Now I'm not unsympathetic to women who may have been abused or taken advantage of.....

But we have to look at the REALITY of what it truly is based on (this movement), which is -

GETTING EVEN


That's all it is, in a nutshell.


A lashing back out at men, and trying to take out frustrations onto men in general.


And yes, when women are trying to compete with men?  They are trying to be LIKE men, which makes them not trying to be like women.  It's very simple.


Now as far as pursuing a goal or dream?  Fine!  Go ahead and do that....    

Competing with an entire gender though, is not a pursuit of a personal goal.


In other words, a woman can pursue a dream or goal of becoming a successful engineer, for example, without having to "compete with men" to do it.

If she is qualified, has the talent and skill, then she can/will succeed, if she has the drive for it.


It's akin to black people fighting against racism, by becoming racist their self.

In such a scenario, you lose before you even begin, because you seek to emulate that which you profess to hate.


"Racism", "sexism", whatever kind of "ism", is just another obstacle, that is part of the realities of life.

Once you cease being yourself, and start becoming what you claim to despise, you lose.



Class dismissed.  (how's this for attitude?)

When we discuss equality it would be useful to separate legal equality from equivalence.

 I fully support the notion that men and women should be equal before the law. They should have the  same property rights, rights to travel, rights to expression, right to vote, right to hold public office, right of inheritance, etc.

 The notion that men and women as a group are the same. That talents fall equally without regard to gender, or that one or the other is inherently superior is nonsense. If intellect and rationality were all that mattered then sure - we are equivalent. But  that is simply false. For thousands, if not millions of years we evolved side by side but differently. The genders are different, equal but different. However focused the last 35 or so years of PC advertising has tried to deny it, the simple fact is that men and women are different. Sure there are exceptions on both sides but stereotypes exist for good reason.

  Every serious relationship I have enjoyed in adulthood has been with a smart, strong, creative, self assured woman. Not one of them bothered to compete with me, nor did I compete with them. We were together, on each others side, on each others team, there to help each other not score debating points. Did we disagree? Sure all the time. Discussions sometimes became arguments and sometimes degenerated into all out fights (verbal only). But at the end of it all the context was one of TRUSTING partnership.

  Here is my definition of a strong person, male or female, they pursue their goals to the best of their ability. They realize that life isn't perfect nor perfectly fair. They chose their battles and ignore the rest. They accept personal responsibility and don't blame others. When they encounter personal prejudice they deal with it personally and confine the blame to the person, if its systemic they deal with the system. Mostly they realize that life is what you make it, not what a political group, encounter group. media group makes it, WHAT YOU MAKE IT. Lastly when they chose to let someone into their life they realize that they are taking a chance and that the persons flaws come along with their virtues.

  The last lady in my life defied labels. By that I mean that there were no labels that came close to describing her. Had I taken one of her opinions or view points and tried to classify her we'd never have gotten together. Had she done that with me the result would have been the same.

  Various people in this thread have made good points, only to be lumped into some negative group. People and their mix of opinions are far more complex. We'd all be better off trying to understand the INTENT of their comment, rather than grabbing the first counter slogan and trying to beat them to death with it.

Just my opinion and YMMV -
-J

-- Modified on 10/23/2007 6:58:14 PM

Nice post

-- Modified on 10/23/2007 8:20:57 PM

All I'm doing is saying women shouldn't be denied the same opportunities as men, simply because of their gender.  I take Jefferson's statement of political preference that all men are created equal to mean political equality and I'm happy to include women in that normative statement.

The generalities I quoted from you seemed to be saying that all women are as you said they were, otherwise they were not real women.  Tell me you meant to add "some" as a modifier for your description of women and we might be closer together.  

No doubt there are men-hating women on the feminist left.  I despise them, too.

But I'm attracted to women who are successful in the business world and I don't think they are less feminine for their success.  I don't think they are less female for successfully competing with and against men on their path toward the top of the pyramid.

This statement of yours I either don't understand or just completely disagree with:  "a woman can pursue a dream or goal of becoming a successful engineer, for example, without having to "compete with men" to do it."  It seems to me that anyone who succeeds in any field has to compete with others in the field and compete successfully.  That is how they get ahead of the others.  So by definition, a woman engineer who succeeds, gets ahead of other men engineers, by definition competed with those engineers.  We have hierarchies in organizations, some people advance some stay where they are.  (I am fully aware that the wacko feminists think hierarchies are evil--I think hierarchies are a natural and desireable part of capitalism and capitalism has been proven over the past 90 years to be the best engine for improvement of quality of life on the planet.)

I am also aware that social change often occurs as a result of annoying pushing by people pissed off at the status quo.  The fact that progress in women's opportunities across the board over the past 40 years was started by some pissed off women  doesn't bother me in the slightest.  The fact that many (not most) women interested in women's "rights" want to subjugate men and that many blacks in their zeal to fight racism have become anti-white racists themselves does not convince me that equal opportunity as generally understood is not a worthy goal.

... so why would you say that?  I'm sure we'd agree on a lot of things.  What exactly do you agree with in this post?

-- Modified on 10/23/2007 9:38:31 PM

Well, let's put it this way: no matter what happens, the world will not come to an end.  If we wake up tomorrow, and aliens have landed in New Mexico, and people fly to the moon, and a woman gets elected as Prime Minister of Britain, and a couple of wackos shoot up a Colorado high school, and OJ Simpson kills two people, and a sitting United States President gets caught having an extra-marital affair, and a bunch of politicians turn out to be gay (or pedophiles, or hobbyists, or crack addicts, etc.), and Michael Jackson molests a bunch of kids, AND Catholic priests molest a bunch of kids, and terrorists bomb New York City, and some lunatic sends Anthrax through the mail, and a tsunami destroys part of south-east Asia, and a hurricane destroys part of New Orleans, and I gain 50 pounds, and... Oh wait, all of those things already happened (except maybe for the aliens in New Mexico, I'm just not sure) LOL.  

I guess my point is that strange things happen, the world changes, but life goes on.  The earth keeps spinning.  Even if women "rule the world" one day, very little will really change.  And I think we'd all be able to live with the changes anyway.  It'd be strange and different, but not unbearable.  Like Robert Kennedy said, may you live in interesting times.  And we certainly do.

And I have "met" or gotten to know you through many of your posts. You can't always have it both ways, as you said.  Sometimes it has to be clear in your head whether you can live without a relationship or whether you can live without your "career" goals.  Many times they are mutually exclusive.  Maybe the next generation will have it better in that regard.

"A man's nature is that of leadership, provider, and warrior.

A woman's isn't."

You think that women (sounds like all women but maybe you grant insignificant exceptions) are BY NATURE inferior to men on certain criteria: leadership, provider, warrior.

The only part of that I would agree with is that most men are more aggressive than most women and pound for pound are physically stronger.  But the hundreds of women in the WNBA, the thousands of women in college basketball and lacrosse and probably soccer, are stronger than the fag men in streets of San Francisco.  Yet the fag men, if they keep their mouths shut about their sexual preferences, can become combat warriors (or whatever occupation needs strength and aggressiveness.  The only way you can reconcile that is to say that those women are not real women and/or the fag men are not real men.  

There was a time that Americans and English believed the Irish were drunks, stupid and lazy.  There was a time that blacks were not considered good enough to serve with or lead white soldiers.  

Since you believe that the traditional roles of women vis a vis men existed because of the innate natures of men and women, there is no reasoning (or evidence probably) that would convince you otherwise.  You gather your folks for the elections and I'll gather mine.  I'll respect your  fundamental constitutional rights even when my views win and I expect you to respect mine when you when.  Otherwise majority rules.

I just do not agree with these special interest groups or movements very much, and believe more on the individual.


Jackie Robinson got into baseball because he was just so damn good.   After that, others followed.   We didn’t need a “million man march” to open up that door.

Don’t know if you know the story, but the first time Jackie took the field, it was a scene out of Mad Max Thunderdome.  The people were animals, yelling and screaming, and players were scared.

Pee Wee Reese, a WHITE man, walked over to Jackie and put his arm around him and just stood there and looked back at the crowd.  That went a long ways towards calming things down, and moving things forward.

ONE individual, doing the right thing, just using common sense and pursuing righteousness.


As for women, it’s a little different….

Man-hating feminists, and abused/resentful women, decided that it was time to “fight back”, and “break the doors down”……….

YOU say you don’t have a problem with that.

Personally, I wouldn’t either, as I’d just worry about myself.

The reason I DO have a problem with it, is because of the negative impact on society as a whole – families and children.


Yeah that’s great that you’re out there getting a college degree and becoming a business woman…..     but now who is spending time raising the children?   How is the relationship with your mate??

The divorce rate, and the current moral standards of society, speak for themselves.


Personally my belief is that the man is the leader/head of the household.  

I feel this way partly because of the Bible, and my faith in it.

I also feel this way, because I believe that men are built to be leaders, not followers of women.

As for this PC “equal partners” thing, I don’t believe in it.

I think it’s based on worldly wisdom, and a patch for people’s insecurities.


I DO believe in having full love and respect for women, but I do NOT believe in looking at them as “equals”.    

We are NOT equal, we are different.  We have completely different natures.


You don’t need to have equality, in order to have love and respect.


I DO believe in giving a woman every opportunity and right to pursue anything she wants (within the laws).  I DO believe in personal freedoms.


I do NOT believe in this false notion of equality though, and will not allow people of the world to ram it down my throat….

Any more than I let them ram down my throat, that I am a “homophobe”, or a “caveman”,  if I don’t accept homosexual activity as natural/normal.


This is what these special interest groups do, to INCREASE insecurities, and pit us against one another.

They tell us that there is something wrong with us, if we do not agree with their PC agenda.


Isn’t that CRAZY?  Especially when you consider how they are always complaining about others saying that something is wrong with THEM.  


The REAL fact is though, that any true Christian, who actually KNOWS the Bible and follows it, does not judge nor persecute others who are not following it.

(I’m speaking on the traditional crowd here)

Any true Christian man, loves his wife as his own flesh……….
It is written –

“25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body,[d] of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”[e] 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.”

Ephesians chapter 5


(It also says -  22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.)  



Now does every person claiming to be Christian act without judging and persecuting others?   Nope.   They do it all the time.  

Does every MAN claiming to be Christian, love his wife as his own flesh, and act without “lording it over her” within their marriage?  Nope.  They do it all the time.


This doesn’t change the Bible though, and the instructions and principles that most of our American society was FOUNDED on.


THAT is what I believe in.

THAT is what made this country great, and blessed.


NOT this new era PC madness, that is turning everything upside down and around and around.



Peace

I always thought the Pee Wee Reese story was quite moving.  

Thanks for this from you:  "I DO believe in giving a woman every opportunity and right to pursue anything she wants (within the laws).  I DO believe in personal freedoms."

We'll still have to agree to disagree on the innate nature of men and women.  

I am a lapsed Presbyterian myself.  I respect men and women of faith more than most of my liberal collegues.  I have to ask though, what brings you into this hobbyist/provider world?

... but thanks, anyway.  Yes, you can't have your cake and eat it too.  One obvious problem facing our "poor, unfortunate" career-women is finding a man who lives up to their standards.  When it comes to finding a SO, women are picky and choosy by nature.  And very few women want to be with a man who makes less money than they do.  While this might not be such a tall order when you earn, let's say, $40,000/year, it becomes extremely difficult when you earn $400,000/year.  The field of potential partners becomes much narrower.  This is a problem of perception that is as much the fault of women as it is the fault of men.  And I confess that I wouldn't feel comfortable being with a woman who earns more money than I do.

Many women choose to concentrate on their career rather than relationships because they think of their career as something that they can control.  Relationships, on the other hand, seem random and beyond their control.  I mean, what if they put their career "on hold" to look for a mate, but then Mr. Right never shows up?  Gasp!  They'll end up alone and broke in their old age!  It makes sense if you think about it.

Well I was a Christian before, but was “back and forth”, and never truly understood the Word, or many of the basic principles.

Still, I was trying to pursue a good and healthy relationship with ONE woman, but have had a lot of terrible experiences, with women just being really scandalous, in more ways than a few.

Well I was with my ex for two years, and after all the things we had been through, and after all the ways that we had been close and grew closer, I discovered that she was lying and I couldn’t trust her at all.

It brought me to an alltime low, and I totally gave up on women – or at least, having a relationship.

I figured this hobby would be a great way to focus on my career goals, and not deal with the drama.

I also had a few fantasies, that I wanted to pursue….



Well over the past year, I’ve really been studying the Bible, and really gotten serious about that, and have experienced a lot of “renewing of the mind”.

I’ve really grown a lot in this past year…..


So now I’m trying again to pursue a good relationship, but also am focusing on myself and growing as a person, and that’s basically what’s going on now……..

I still have some old worldly ways that I’m struggling with though, and every now and then I succumb to enticement/flesh.




I like this forum, because there is a unique perspective that can be gotten here.

IMHO...and this is the way I have seen it time and time again.
If a man TRULY wanted to be the leader, Provider, and WARRIOR...they would be DOING their job in Fighting for the woman they love, providing for her security, and leading them into a better life.
NOT taking advantage of the time she is taking care of YOUR house, YOUR meals, YOUR bills. Sure...you may go to work, then come home to sit in front of the TV to watch the game and wait on your dinner, but WE have been home ALL DAY cleaning your house. Have you said 'oh...it
looks nice in here huney' or 'would you like to go for a walk with me huney?' just to get us OUT of the house. YOU work all the time, but
complain when we go out and buy things for the house, or yard, or YOU. You say we are spending your money, yet you prefer us NOT to work. Lord forbid the moment we go out to buy ourselves a pair of shoes, or new undies.
What Im trying to say is you want us to stay home tend to your needs take care of your house, and not want for anything our little minds can think of. The moment we have a brainstorm, you get irritated and defensive. Which makes us want to help contribute to the household so we can make not only MY but YOUR life a little easier.(our life)  
Then there's the sex...which ends up getting repetitious to say the least. You come into the bedroom, slip off your clothes, and into bed, roll over, and try to kiss us, grope us down below for all of 2 minutes, and then you jump ontop. wham BAMN...rolls over and goes to sleep, turning your back to me. (did I just have fun?)
:O
Ladies are well known for their creativity. But in the instance above, it feels like you guys just want to do it just to get it over with so you can roll over and go to sleep...leaving US
Irritated and unfulfilled.  

As you may have already guessed, yes, I have had this happen to me with my ex.
I was a stay at home mom for 6 years, and DEPENDED on him to take care of me...the kids...the house. What did I get?
Someone who couldn't hold a job to save his life, someone who ran MY credit down the tube (because I was his wife)
Someone who didn't have TIME for me or the kids because his 'friends' were more important to him than we were.
and someone who made ME feel like a complete IDIOT for trusting him to BE the bread-winner, the Father of my children, the HUSBAND who wanted a wife/mother who stayed home and did all the things you guys say we should be doing.

I came to believe if I'm ever going to get anything DONE...I had to do it myself.
If ME becoming an independant woman is such a turn-off well...im very sorry to have offended some of you. SUE ME! My oil needs changing, I'll damn well do it myself!
For those of you who appreciate a woman who can take control, get things done, and make your life a lot easier for you, thank you for your respect, not belittling my words!

ok...I'm done ranting! GRRRR I think I got off topic a bit, but the point I'm trying to make is,
Whats the difference if WE as women make the same
if not more in business as you guys?
As long as we are treated with the same amount of respect in these industries as you give your good buddy BOB, we're happy little co-workers.  
Instead...your irritated and offended! WHY??????

Hehe, reminds me very much of the conversations that take place on the Christian forums….


Talking about women being “inferior”.


That’s kind of a buzz word there.  It has a very negative connotation.



In Christian terms, let’s look at an example –


Did John the Baptist consider himself “inferior” to Jesus, the one coming “whose sandle straps he isn’t worthy to loose”?  

John was “the man” at that time, yet he had no problem acknowledging that Jesus had a higher role.

They were both men, but Jesus had the higher role.


With men and women, we are both of equal importance in God’s eyes, but we have different roles.


The man’s role and nature, is geared for leading, providing and protecting.

The woman’s role and nature, is geared for supporting, nurturing and raising.



In the Bible, the man’s role IS greater than the woman’s.

Adam was created first.  Adam named all of the animals, and even named Eve.

It was when Adam bit the apple, that the fall of mankind occurred, not when Eve did.

All of the leaders chosen by God in the OT were men (Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Moses, Joshua……).

Jesus came in the form of a man.

All of the Apostles he chose, were men.

IF he had intended us to be equals, as the WORLDLY political correct movement wants, he would have chose 6 apostles to be women, and 6 to be men.


So you are welcome to believe whatever you wish, but my beliefs are not swayed nor dictated, by how many people do or don’t follow something, nor are my beliefs dictated by the government.  

Perhaps a bad choice of words but I was referring to situations where a more Machiavellian scheme played out.

In no way was I referring to the Hobby or anything deemed illegal.

What I'm talking about are people who rise to positions of power by undermining others with the goal to advance their own career. Passing out tasks, projects or whatever that are doomed to fail from the start, etc.

If you'd really like some better exampples pick up a copy of "What would Machiavelli do?"

It's a fun book with enough reality through contemporary corporate moguls.

I can't speak on your personal experience, because I wasn't there.

I mean, there's two sides to every story right?

Not saying that what you're saying isn't accurate, just that I really don't know.


Either way, it's no secret that there are men with issues, as well as women.  I already stated as such, a few posts up.



What my response to you would be that WE as people, have two ways to respond to disappointments like these.  We can either

a)  Be mature and responsible, and take some accountability for what happened and why, and try again

b)  Be immature, take NO responsibility or accountability, throw a tantrum like a little child, and then walk around with an attitude and a chip on our shoulder for the rest of our life


In MY last relationship with MY ex, she really did me wrong.

I went to GREAT lengths to be that "prince charming", and to give and support her in every way possible.

I was loyal, I was giving, I was extremely generous and supportive, I was understanding.....

yet she felt as though she was still too good to settle down with just one guy, even if he is "all of that".

She let all the attention she'd get over her looks, from guys who ONLY want to fuck, go to her head.

After two years of going through all kinds of struggles, getting past them, getting to know and understand each other, working through things - and we DID have a LOT of fun.............

I found that she was STILL lying, and was STILL considering other options.

Basically, playing life like it's a shopping spree, seeing if she might come up with something better, before purchasing me.


Now I can either become a "Leykis 101" student, or I can maybe take some accountability, in the choice I made in a woman, and why I made that choice.

I've actually already done so, and what I learned is that I had some esteem issues, and also some other issues, that led me to invest into a relationship with a really bad candidate.



Now why I personally, am so "irritated and offended" by what you call "an independent woman", is probably the very same reason YOU are offended by chauvinist and exploitive men.

It's nothing but SELF in both.

Selfishness and immaturity and a total lack of responsibility, whereas EVERYONE loses, ESPECIALLY the children.


So basically, what are you going to tell that MAN who's been burned?

To become a "hobbyist"?  Is THAT the answer??

Or how about what a LOT of guys are doing right now, and becoming Tom Leykis students?

Is THAT a good answer?


See sweety, many women are bitches, or decide to BECOME bitches, but yet they don't stop to think that maybe what comes around, might just come BACK around........

I simply don't think that this is the answer, for either of us.


Please read my post above, in response to Rudy50.


take care

You must be a man with a lot of wisdom.


I got a lot out of what you shared.




thanks

Bitterness comes from a long time of dissappointment.
No I'm not saying it is all the guys fault, just that if you bang your head against a brick wall long enough, you eventually start to bleed.

As a beaten dog learns after the first few brutal beatings...to be weary of trusting again.

I HAVE old fashioned values. I sometimes dream what it would have been like had I been born in the 20's or early 19th century even.
My present day way of thinking and acting would probably crucify me as a witch, but at least we would have been treated as ladies should be treated, and courted as we would should be courted, respected as we SHOULD be respected.
Yes, there are ladies out there ready willing and able to tell you what you want to hear, hold you as you want to be held, and support you as you wish to be supported. (as their hands dig deeper and deeper in your pockets) All for their own, personal gain. Todays society is all about climbing that ladder of success. All be it men OR women, we all have that right. HOW some of us climb that ladder, is entirely up to the morals scruples, and integrity of that individual. From personal experience, The good don't get very far up that ladder. They don't have the balls, they don't have the drive, they don't have 'dirty game' going on up in their heads, but they climb higher and higher stepping on the heads of the ones who follow the straight and narrow.

I know where I'm going, when I leave this earth.
I just hope one day...the world can honestly look at each other, and not see, Gender, race, religion, color, size, or handicap and look into each others soul. Their true self.
Now...I would rather turn the other cheek, than lash out to hurt anyone. That is not my goal in life, and Neither is beating a dead dog with a bone.
Living and appreciating my life....is.

and sorry you had that bad experience!!!!



that really sucks, and I hate it when men take good women for granted, and/or treat them badly....


I used to try to do all I could to stand up for, and support good women, but after a while I found myself caught up to where the woman whom PORTRAYED herself as the "victim", was really the perpetrator or instigator, and I found out that it's not good to get into other people's business.

I'll still help a lady out if I can, but I try not to get in the middle of her and anyone else.

I just try to lend my support.


take care

Aug, I realize you're trying not to be stressed out by things, and I don't want to stress you out myself, but it isn't so "insignificant"..........


Otherwise, you wouldn't be so upset about the dating/social scene.



When the divorce rate is 50%, and another half of the rest are unhappy marriages, that means that only 1 out of 4 marriages is a successful and happy one.


So you say "very little will change"?

Not to be contentious, but a LOT has ALREADY changed, and not for the better.....

and don't forget about the kids in all this........

they are the ones suffering the most through it all...



Hey, sometimes I lie and say I don't care too, when I don't want to get stressed out about something...............  but the truth sometimes is that I DO care, and I think you do too; Otherwise, you wouldn't be talking about it.

Yes, my main concern is for the children.  It's a shame when children have to grow up in broken homes just because mommy or daddy found something better (whether it's a career or another person).  And even if the marriage remains intact, latchkey children often grow up maladjusted.  And remember, I don't have children, and I don't want children, so you know if I'm worrying about them, it must be pretty bad.  But we can't force people to NOT have children.  If a woman wants to have a career AND children, no one can stop her.  

As for the changing dating scene, yeah, it sucks for guys like me.  But change has been a constant throughout the last century.  I'm sure some men were intimidated when women started to smoke cigarettes in the 1920's.  Some men were probably intimidated when women started to drive cars.  Other men were probably intimidated when women entered the workplace and the armed services in large numbers.  And birth control and the "sexual revolution," etc.  But life went on.  And just when you think you're getting used to the new reality... things change again.  

If you had asked me ten years ago, I would have said that fertility rates would be plummeting by 2007.  It seemed like every woman of child-bearing age was focusing on her career instead of getting married and having babies.  But then Hollywood went through an out-of-wedlock "baby boom," and tons women started following suit, and before you knew it, "My Baby's Daddy" began to replace the term "husband" in popular culture.  So do we really NEED the institution of marriage at all?  If you ask me, if a divorce is so easy to get, the concept of marriage is a moot point.  I mean, 'Til Death do us part... or at least until I get tired of looking at you everyday?'  What kind of a commitment is that?  Maybe the divorce laws should change for people who have children.  Perhaps parents should only be able to get a divorce in instances of spousal abuse.  At least that way we could ensure that BOTH parents would be around for the children.  But is this concept really feasible?  I don't know.