don't chew my head off, but do any of you guys feel sad that we have to pay for companionship? i am single by the way so i am not cheating on anyone.

-- Modified on 7/19/2003 3:59:08 PM

i don't, but i am single. Could i find a "civilian" to satisfy my needs and desires sexually? Yeah, i suppose so, but that always comes with commitment. You know, all the strings and responsibilty that come with a dating. At this point in my life a relationship is not what i am looking for.

  What i am looking for is to spend a maybe 2,3,4,or 5 hours in the company of a lady from time to time when i feel the need for alittle.....uuuuummmm.........eeeerrrrrr.....companionship. A nice dinner, perhaps alittle wine, followed by some nice private time is all i want, so why should i deal with all the rest that comes from regular "dating". At the end of the evening i return to my life and she to hers. I've gotten what i wanted, and she has gotten what she wanted(insert CynicalMan & 2.0s comments here). Hopefully we've both enjoyed our time together.

  Maybe in the future my wants and desires will change, but for now, this is a win/win situation as far as i'm concerned.

Sb  

-- Modified on 7/19/2003 4:07:48 PM

I used to feel guilty about cheating on my wife, but I've gotten past that.  It was a real issue for me when I had fallen for my (former) ATF, and was comtemplating leaving my wife for her.  I spent a lot of time there, including multi-night sleep-overs every week.  I had a lot of guilt then.  Now, my (former) ATF is gone and I'm just a normal hobbyist again.  My wife doesn't want to fuck, and spends more money on her hobbies than I do on mine, so I'm at peace with what I do.

As for being a "loser" (a man who HAS TO pay for sex), I choose to pay, over having a girlfriend on the side or cruising bars for one-night stands.  Too much work!  All I want is to get laid WHEN I WANT, and enjoy someone's company for an hour or two.  "Paying for it" works out great for me.

Now, if I were so repulsive that no woman would touch me without getting paid for it, I would only be a loser if I couldn't afford it.

Guilty??  Absolutely not!  I am here by choice, not a lack of "civilian" alternatives.  I've been married & also had a long time SO after that, so I never diverted $ away to "paying for it" that should have gone elsewhere.  But after the SO & I parted the sheets I simply didn't want any further marriages or relationships of that nature.  And frankly, too many single gals(I don't screw around..at least not knowingly with married women)in my general age range are looking to nest, which is defintely what I DON'T want.  Far better, for me at least, to spend time with a quality provider that I can relate to than to endure the prompts for something "more" about the future...or worse yet, the jealousy or answering to someone about my whereabouts or activities.

No.  Whether it's cash, alcohol, or a night out, you always pay.  I'm not a playa by any means, but I do o.k. for myself.  I get laid, but not nearly enough for my taste.  In a perfect world, I would throw away my alarm clock and wake up to a blowjob every morning.  At lunch I'd have a pussy sandwich.  After dinner, I could have a nice big piece of cherry pie.

My problem is that I can either get along with women in bed or out of it, but never both.  (Rant Deleted)  Sometimes it's just so much easier to use cash, but it can get expensive if you're a horny little devil.

i have no guilt, only regrets ...  LOL


"I see it all perfectly; there are two possible situations -- one can either do this or that. My honest opinion and my friendly advice is this: do it or do not do it -- you will regret both."  -- Søren Kierkegaard







-- Modified on 7/19/2003 5:06:17 PM

You didn't mention how long you've been in the Hobby; how old you are; whether you've ever been married, etc.
I like Snowblind, Papercup and Greywolf's responses.
If I knew the subject title, I recall a thread (that ended up being a racial discussion) that had some good points made by Singer and MyLifeAsMe about the different viewpoints on 'paying for sex'.
I have (along with other Ladies) done posts on why we love being Providers. I think these all make for some insightful reading if you care to do message searches.
If you are new to this, you may be feeling an awakening of sorts rather than 'guilt' in that what you are enjoying seems contrary to what you've always thought, or been taught.
Welcome to the Lifestyle. It can be very free-ing.
For ME, this is an almost perfect solution to the whole relationship 'thing'. It's my "Millenium Dating" and I'm at the point where I prefer Clients, or Hobbyists to Civilian men. We are able to be so much more real, want the same things and cut through all the BS and just - enjoy!
Wow! What's bad about that?
So, just relax..and enjoy..

WHO WHAT WHEN WHERE WHY ? .... someone called me?  i was sleeping!

[rubbing eyes]

yes .. by all means, providers BAD, hobbyists GOOD ... all about the money ... yes of course ... never screw anyone under 30 ... absolutely ... blessed are those who sin .... "definately [sic]" ... oh wait, it's spelled "definitely" ... and there's six ways to Sunday ... unless it's nine ways from Monday ... [yawn]

i need a Frapuccino ...

Two years ago I had a partner that found out about my hobby, and thought there was really something wrong with me.  He was an absolute pussy hound, but felt paying for it was beneath him.
Well believe me he always ended up spending more for what pussy he got then I did and was never sure if he was going to be successful on any given night.  It was like back when I was in college.  But for me I always knew the evenings outcome and was seldom disappointed.  But more improtantly I feel I was seeing a much better class of ladies.  I think they were for the most part smarter, nicer and in almost all cases pretter than girls that he would meet at upscale bars and clubs. From what he would say I also know I was having much better sex than he was.  And I had none of the problems afterwards that he had.  Even some gals showing up at the office on Monday looking for him after a Saturday night romp.  After a few weeks of comparison I was a true beliver in the hobby.

Now for the question at hand of guilt, I've been married for ever and have had three affairs over the years.  Each almost ended my marriage and there was always guilt. I have two older teenagers and really do love my wife in a marriage sort of way so divorce is not an option to me.

Now I have more and much better sex, have many more really great gal friends and no guilt. For me the hobby is the answer I wish I had found twenty years ago.

SlowStart

I feel "guilty," or more accurately, "negative," about having visited a provider. Unlike some gentlemen in this thread, I don't feel I could have adequate civilian encounters, so their decision to balance the trade-offs of necessary work and effort put in to civilian dating against the expense of providering doesn't really apply to me. I'd love to find out what they're doing, that makes them feel they WOULD be capable of landing a civilian who would please them sufficiently that hiring providers would be a choice based solely on time, money, and other logistics. For me, it's not about logistics, it's about (as put in another thread) being a "loser."

You guys have heard many of my opinions on this matter recently -- if you'd like, look 'em up, within the last month (heck, week!), on this board, posted by me.

But about that other thread someone mentioned, that had comparisons of "why we do what we do." Could I get a few pointers so I could find it? I'm interested in reading it. (Evidently it turned into a racial discussion? I'm not interested in that part.)

BG

SlowStart,

Your last two paragraphs summarize my feelings.  The only differences are I only had one real affair, and have two grown boys in their 20's.

Guilt is just a distant memory.  I've met interesting people, both women and other hobbyists.

tennis

Book_Guy try reading my last Post above.  My last affair ended not so long ago, it was with a beautiful model 22 years younger than myself.  She had taken prelaw at the University of Moscow at age 16, so not dumb.  Why she fell in love with me I will never know, but it lasted for almost 18 months and was wonderful because she was so wonderful, but what a drain.  By the way it ended when my wife found out.  

One thing it taught me was I am not a loser with women but at what emotional price do you find passion and fulfillment. Not to mention the guilt. .

I really don't think even Singleton is a loser, we have just found a very efficient way to find some happiness.  And I'll tell you after being with the provider I was with last night I am very happy. Now I can't wait to get to San Diego.

BTW I know for sure if I were not married I would be in the hobby two to three times more often.

-- Modified on 7/19/2003 6:47:35 PM

There is a plus to this hobby that I am not sure is appreciated by some.  I have meet the best women (Jessica,Donna,Vanessa) Please notice Slowstart Gia is not in that list. I have also made a couple of friends.  I think that at first when I started this hobby I was elated and then depressed.  It is like falling in love.  But although I am single I have had some moments of remorse that I am not sure where it came from.  But realize the Hobby does not replace love.  But it is a very nice diversion.

not to drool off topic, but speaking of Russian babes (models, etc) i've been lucky enough to come across a few (civilians) and thoroughly enjoyed their "company"  ... and generally seek out same in providers

there's something so delectable about a godless communist from the soviet-era block {hungarian,ukranian,czech,etc}. they have no Christine anti-sex doctrine drilled into them and are as free and liberated sexually as any women on earth (some even more)

i don't know why i'm saying this, except i guess that i'm saying it

As my luck would have it this Russian girl was about as puritanical as they come.  She would have killed me if she had known I engaged in the hobby.

Hey Cranky ...

Look at it this way ....  You can get companionship anywhere and not have to pay for it at all.  Or maybe for buying a lady a drink at a local bar.

What you're paying for is companionship with no strings attached (unless you WANT strings, ropes and cuffs attached - in which case that will be $50 extra).

You're paying for mini-relationships that are each slightly different and unique ... and very low maintenance because once you leave, you don't have to MAINTAIN that relationship at times in your life when it's inconvenient.    To paraphrase Charlie Sheen - we don't pay for sex or companionship - we pay so they'll LEAVE when we're done.

The flip side is to have a full time relationship which doesn't cost anything ..... except that it costs WAY more than the hobby.  Take it from someone who's been there ...  all you single guys .... don't EVER get married!!!!!!    Just find a woman that already hates you .. buy her a house and give her $3000 a month for 11 years and then just continue to see the provider du jour.

All that "godless communism" crap we learned about in school was pure Cold War propaganda.  It might have been the official Party line, but how many people out of the general population were unquestioning Red zealots?

Some of the most repressed Catholics I ever met were Hungarian immigrants.  Look at all the churches flourishing in Russia and other eastern European countries.  And it's hard to beat the Chinese for full-blown superstition and at least superficial religious devotion, even among the educated (my former ATF is the most superstitious person I've ever known).

The ideology of the govenment often has little to no effect on the lives of the common people, espcially in large rural countries with poor communications.  Life goes on as it always has, only the flags and uniforms change.

Book_guy, don't feel bad.  Look, even in my better moments I was never a smooth operator.  Most of the free pussy I ever got was by luck.  Right place, right time sort of stuff.  I was never too successful talking my way into a girl's panties.  Usually ended up with a new "friend" and blue balls (along with an empty wallet and nothing to show for it).  "Closing the deal" was never my strong suit.  

And I'll tell you something else.  Most guys are not scoring as much as you think they are.  And a lot of that "scoring" is aided by lies, liquor, manipulating, pestering, begging or worse.  There are not many guys who can regularly charm their way into a woman's bed.

Some of us are more socially adept than others.  Some are extroverts and some are shy.  None are "better" than the others because of that.  All of us want to get laid.  Some accomplish that with BS, others with cash.  We all find a way that works for us.  Unless your way is rape, don't sweat it!

headaches and no hangovers.  It is a good way for men to satify their lust.

It sounded great if one got to have sex with a hot chick for free.  However, sometimes the hidden cost is simply too high to fathom.

Most of the very few guys I know who do get a lot of "free" pussy
lie to the gals, and I mean really lie.  I have a friend you gets laid way more than I do and spends very little money doing it, but this guy will say anything and I mean anything to get laid. Only problem is within a week ever girl that goes to bed with him hates him.  I've seen some of the letters he gets and its pretty sick. I have no interest in living like that.  I have no problem looking in the mirror every morning to shave, but I don't see how I could do it if I had to lie my ass off to have gotten  sex the night before.

nice guys finish last ... end of story ... end of message [EOM]

well, except it's worth re-hashing!

be the sensitive caring guy they claim they want  and they will simply walk away (in relative disgust)

treat these same women like "dirt" (like your friend, Mr. Congeniality) and they will follow you to the ends of the world. until you dump them afterwhich they latch onto another "bad guy"

i've vowed never to be unnecessarily "nice" (that is, clueless)

--

can you just FEEL the bitterness?  ahhhh!  

LOL

Papercup you are so right.  I have a degree in political science and sociology but was unable to make a planned trip to Russia because of the political situation back in the 80's. This girl made me realize that at least 75% of what I had been taught and thought I knew was so wrong. I've learned that lesson about a lot of things I was taught as a kid or learned in college.  We sure get a lot of miss-information in this country.

helps.

"My last affair ended not so long ago, it was with a beautiful model 22 years younger than myself.  She had taken prelaw at the University of Moscow at age 16, so not dumb.  Why she fell in love with me I will never know, but it lasted for almost 18 months and was wonderful because she was so wonderful, but what a drain."

I'm jealous. You had sex with a beautiful intelligent woman who wanted to be with you, and you're saying it wasn't a positive experience? Geez, some people will never be satisfied.

"By the way it ended when my wife found out." See, that was your mistake, committing to someone who wouldn't approve. I haven't made that mistake. How come I don't get more rewards than the people who have?

Just ribbin' ya ... but really, I WOULD LOVE to know how to go about landing someone like that Russian you mention. I've never been so lucky, and (because I like beautiful women) consequently must see providers. Some day I'll change all that by learning to get attractive women to like me. So far they don't seem to ... I dunno, maybe they do and just don't let on.

is for "beauty" and "youth" ... intelligence is a distant third. unlike some men here who view the hobby as "millenium dating"  i try to target high-end providers who are so (allegedly) way out of my league that i can eventually enjoy the re-assuring thought of "she's NOT all that afterall" as we lay curled up in the afterglow

why anyone would want to re-create their experience with civilians in this hobby is beyond me. this is one of the reasons i'd have my head examined if i ever thought that a weekend getaway might be a "good idea"

but to each his own, i guess

I'm after the gorgeous partner combination as well, and agree with you that the whole "millennium dating" concept -- having a "meaningful bond" with someone (for $3000 !) from the internet -- is not for me. If other guys are confident they've adequately weighed the trade-offs for themselves, then, hey!, like you, I say, to each his own. But that's not my own.

Which is why it's all the more frustrating to compare my hobbying with my civilianizing, and realize that the only way I CAN get what I want, currently, is through the "fake" alternative of hobbying, and not the "real" one of civilian dating. If you could show me a means to making "all that grief" as a trade-off, such that I might find civilian partners who pleased me (physically, primarily; that's generally been the sticking point; there's a level below which I probably couldn't go, in terms of intelligence and character as well, but those criteria are currently MUCH easier to satisfy than the physical ones), I'd head for the door right now.

It stuns me, these guys who talk about their wonderful affairs with wonderful civilian women and then say they have found the hobby to be a simpler solution. I'm sure they're right, about the hobby relative to their previous or potential alternate lifestyles. But relative to MINE? Geez, what I can get at a nightclub could be summarized in ... well ... very few words.
What am I doing wrong here?

BG

"The tragedy of it is that nobody sees the look of desperation on my face. Thousand and thousands of us, and we're passing each other without a look of recognition" -- Henry Miller

I didn't say it wasn't positive, it lasted for 18 months, but at what price?  Would I do it over again?  In a second but than I guess I like to punsih myself.  What punishment!

I've been widowed now for about 6 years.  I started hobbying about a year after my wife's death, and have also dated civilians from time to time.  Given a choice on any given day, I'd prefer a good provider.

Cynicalman talks about it as "all about the money", and he may be correct in many instances.  Be that as it may, it can be less exoensive than dating a civilian.

I am fortunate that $$$ is not an overriding factor in my life.  But when a "civilian" finds that out, her reach can be much more exorbitant than any provider I've met.  And I have had overanundantly great experiences with providers, whereas in the civilian world the term YMMV, IMHO, is greater than the YMMV in this hobby.

Looking for companionship, a little compassion and warmth, some friendship at times, and some playful fun is what this is all about for me.  Guilt?  Not in my vocabulary for this part of my life.

Just .02 from another hobbyist.

First I would like to say that I enjoy reading your posts. Their well thought out, & very well written.
You have mentioned in earlier posts that your a good looking guy. It's apparent that your bright also.
I'm in a simular position, except that I don't write with your zeil. I am a solid 7, I work out, employed, home owner, 35yrs old ect..I find it very difficult to meet women out in public. They will look at me for a moment, I will smile, & 95% of the time they will look away without returning the smile. Very frustrating! I went through many different emotions ranging from; sadness, defience, stuck up B**&, or just giving up trying. I don't like the bar scene so I had relied on meeting people at the beach( I'm in southern cal) the grocery market, and other public places.
I feel that you will have great sucess if you were to join an online dating service like Match.com. People will enjoy your insites which they will gain from your writings. Plus they will see who you are. You will meet women who have responded to you FIRST, as well as one's that you initiate contact with. It is working wonders for me, and my recently divorced roomate.
In closing, I hope this helps.  
PS, do include your picture as it will help get responses. Also remain classy with your discription, and PICTURES. The feedback I have received from the ladies is that they prefer classy pics instead of the flexing showing off the body stuff. Same for the writings. Don't say your looking for sex. Be real and you'll do fine.

Thanks for the advice. I have to admit, my few limited forays into online dating services have yielded

1. lots of fake ads that are really for providers ( not necessarily a disappointment!! ) or for phone-sex services

2. lots of physically unappealing women

3. many people who aren't really educationally / intellectually interesting to me. (I don't mean to suggest I'm "better" than them because of my language, heck no! I wouldn't ever presume to think I'm better than a fellow human. But to get long-term interactions going it's important to have a certain minimum level of communication and common background.) Lots of people interested in WWF, or professional grass growing, but not books or education or politics or philosophy.

Have you done better than that? If so, which services work best for hot women, bright women, women our age, etc.?