I got an interesting, but somewhat disturbing email this evening from another Provider and I feel strongly enough about this to discuss with you all.
Apparently she had a correspondence going with a Gent, and he ended his last message with saying he had an interest in seeing her now that they've chatted. She said she'd love to as long as he gave her Provider references. He contacted one of his ladies and mentioned that he wanted to see So-n-So, and would she please give her a reference. She replied No! Not for her! I can't stand her! Amazingly enough, the gentleman actually told this new lady what she said and sheepishly said he couldn't make the date now because he didn't have this other Provider as a reference!
WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE??
Ladies, it's not about YOU!!
(now I know that the ladies on this board are above all this, so this isn't directed at any of you. This is for general purpose discussion).
It's about the CUSTOMER.
It's about providing Customer Service. I don't have any issues with other Providers. I've liked and enjoyed all that I've met, or corresponded with, and that is certainly nice, BUT even if I DID have any gripes with any other Provider, that is NOT for the Customer to know about. It has nothing to do with providing the service for the customer. If he needs a reference, GIVE it. Providing a reference should be standard operating procedure, regardless of your feelings for that Provider. Your doing this, assists the customer, and that's what your motives, purpose or intentions should be - to best serve the CUSTOMER. I certainly hope in this case, that this Gentlemen saw what kind of a person this lady was and chose not to see her again (in which case she really lost out) and found another reference. If I were him, that would be a certain turn off. EVEN IF, I couldn't stand the Provider (which is unlikely), I would provide a reference. It's not about me. It's not about her. It's about the customer.
So, ladies, what's your motive? It's the same for ladies who don't want to share their clients. AS IF THEY BELONG TO YOU! They don't. They're Hobbyists! They want to shop, they want variety. Are you that insecure?? What's your motive? Who are you hurting, who are you helping?
I refer all the time. I'll have someone PM or email me with a preference, and I'll say 'sounds like Suzanne's your girl - contact her'. Tall, and blonde? How about Lara, or Elise? Going to Vegas? Well, you gotta see The Lass! Vacationing in Palm Springs, and you love mature women of enjoyable company - see Robyn! And so on and so on, and I would do that regardless of how I felt about them because it's not about that. I want the customer to be taken care of.
As far as references go, Gentlemen, this is usually ALL that happens. There are two questions. Have you seen him? Would you see him again? That simple. Nothing else said, unless there is something important to know to serve him better or make it more enjoyable for both. And that's all that should take place.
I guess I'm just shocked that this nonsense goes on. Let's make sure we are all striving for better.

Much love,
Sedona

I think the provider should explain why she can't stand the other provider and then the gent can decide what her motive is.

GREAT POST, SEDONA !!!!!!!!!!!!! ))))

Tell it like it is

Mel

-- Modified on 3/16/2003 6:43:57 AM

Hi Sedona,

Though you didn't mention anyone by name, this sounds like what just happened with me.  I don't mind bringing it out in the open.  I'll ommit the specific ladie's names, however.  You bring up a very valid point about the way providers treat eachother, and you all should just give references, putting aside personal feelings for one another, but let me fill in some missing information for you on this particular situation you've been apprised of.

Remember, we hobbiests have to be prudent too in our decision of who to see and who to pass on.  I spend hours corresponding, preparing for, showering, dressing, driving to and from, etc. my dates, and I can't afford to be wasting time on a less than fabulous time.  I think you know from the correspondences we've had that I'm a quality hobbiest and a kind, sincere guy.

First, the lady I was going to see had a few red flags prior to the warning I received from one of my regular SD gals.  First, she had only one review.  Ordinarily, I won't even consider seeing anyone with 1 or no reviews.  Could too easily be fake.  She was so nice in the e-mails however, I suspended my rule for her.  Then, I found out she didn't offer incall.  Now, I've got to go through the hassle and expense of renting a room.  This for a gal I've never met and has only one review.  Third, when I suggested that we meet in the hotel bar and have a drink or two, she says she doesn't drink.  Great, now she has an "issue" with alcohol, and we both don't get to get that little happy buzz that makes an encounter so relaxed.  Then, after all this nice e-mailing, and after I told her she could contact any lady I've seen and get a reference, she tells me to contact one of the ladies I've seen and GET HER a reference, stating that she doesn't like to call any provider "cold."  I've never heard of such a thing, and I thought it was wierd, but I did it anyway.  Then, I got the warning from the gal I've seen stating that she wants nothing to do with her.

That was it for me.  I gracefully bowed out, and had the fortitude to be honest with the lady and tell her why.  As I told her, she might be the nicest lady there is, but too many red flags for me.  I gave her plenty of notice and was kind and considerate the whole time.

For what it's worth, I think some of you ladies take screening to an extreme.  I, for one, will go only so far with screening.  With a real hobbiest like me, if all of my reviews don't speak for themself and contacting any one of the 20 ladies I've reviewed isn't enough, I'm moving on.

I wish you and her and all the ladies great joy and prosperity.

-Jacksonlips

a few local ladies in those regions really don't get along at all.  In that case, a reference by that lady would probably hurt the client's chance of seeing the other lady, not to mention create anxieties to both.

JMHO, the client should either seek another reference or inform the lady he wanted to see that his regulars don't give references.  There is no need to involve the other lady in his thrill seeking adventure now that he knew the reasons.

Interesting though, in your message, the gentleman have seen more than one lady; so why place all the burden on the one?

One has to accept that some people just don't get along.

Having been in the hobby for a couple of years now I have experienced a fair amount of what I'd call catty behavior amoung the providers.

I have never had one provider opt to not give a ref., but then again I haven't been asked for that many.  But I have frequently had occation to discuss the biz after the fun is over and we are wrapping things up and gotten some frightening comments.

My now retired ATF told me of one provider who called her and essentially told her that she had to see certain gents and how she had to treat them if she wanted to get along in her town.  When the ATF told her that she wouldn't the on and off the boards bashing occured.  Another told me of an occation where a friendly provider and she had set up a get together when the the first was in town.  When the second learned that she was on tour in her town the relationship soured.  That second provider BTW is a well respected lady on these boards.

I have had dates tell me that others were drunks, doing clients without condoms, ratting out to LE, going through gents wallets, and many other things.  And not one of these ladies are what I think anyone here would call anything but well respected members of this community.  Most have had multi page web sites and many excellent reviews.  

As a client I hardly know what to say in response to this sort of comment.  I don't know the other usually and it really makes me uncomfortable.  But I have gotten the feeling that many poviders, and even those who enjoy decent reputations, can be capable of some real backstabbing behavior.

There isn't any reason in the world not to give a reference.  These gents aren't looking for wives and you would think some of these girls are just that with the petty jealous attitides these pit bulls in skirts have.

This is a business.  To many do not take that approach at all and take things to personal.  Some just take the competitive approach to the extreme.  It will always be so.  

One just has to learn to adjust to it all.  I tend to ignore it.  Their business practices will end up biting them in the butt sooner or later.  Those that run their businesses with integrity will be around much longer, more successful and safer for having networked with others.

Lauren

My Dr. did that one time. But he explained his reasoning for not referring me to a certain specialist. It was a very good reason, which I found to be true later. The specialist that I wanted to see was not very well respected in the profession and had several malpractice suits pending.

Perhaps there was a similar reasoning behind her refusal. She should still explain why though.

In reading the responses, I have a reply to all of them. Yet, I'm going to reply to yours. There's a way to handle the situations the others have written about..
Your story..As your doctor, he wants to provide you with good care, and it is his duty to inform you of some things so you can make an intelligent choice. He had your best interest at heart, and his motive was correct, as well as how he went about it. See the difference?
I have had Gents ask me about ladies, many ladies. I answer their questions without adding my own opinion of them, or their practices. If a question gets sticky, I'll refer them to TER to read her reviews, tell them how to do a 'message search' so they can read her postings and get to know her better there. This way, it's not coming from ME, and it's not 'hearsay'. I've had a Gent ask me about one lady, and I responded, that based on what I believe to be his taste and desire, I'm not sure that they would be compatible, and NOT even give him the reasons why. I suggested he offer her $50 and meet for drinks and get his own feelings about her and go from there.
There is almost always a Win-Win solution to each scenario and a proper, professional way of handling it when your motives are correctly aligned.

Thanks for your post.

Sedona

and it sucks, and it shouldn't happen. EVER. Providers should not be doing this, and yet- it happens all the time. But, clients are sometimes just as a bad. I've had clients who will mention something about a particular provider, just to see my reaction, and when I don't give any, then they are off to another subject.

Providers/Clients- if a provider or client brings up an uncomfortable subject, learn to say: "No. I am not here to discuss "X" ". If you do it in a respectful way, then you can both get around it, and go back to you session.

Mel

-- Modified on 3/16/2003 9:37:08 AM

-- Modified on 3/16/2003 9:38:43 AM

Never have had this happen. I usually don't get asked for references.

I honestly can't say how I'd react, other than to say it would really change my opinion of the provider I was seeing, and not for the good.

I loved the comment above about "Pit bulls in skirts" totally cracked me up!  But the metaphor is perfect :]

HPG

Hi, Jacksonlips.
Actually, I don't know the Hobbyist NOR the Provider - she didn't tell me, and I appreciate that she didn't, as I don't want to know.
I have had a situation before, however, that was 'icky' and a gentleman asked me about a lady that I felt I could NOT recommend. Rather than telling him I don't recommend seeing her, I advised that he check on TER, do some research, and perhaps PM some of the Gents who've seen her and maybe they can give insight to the compatability. This way, it doesn't come from ME. I've no intention of causing anyone any harm.
Obviously, if it were a 'dangerous' situation for the Hobbyist and I was aware, I would warn of anything I knew to be of danger to him. But, that's a given.


xo,
Sedona

This is the most balanced discussion of the referral issue that I have seen on this board.  In the past people seemingly have either taken the position that there is never any problem with referrals or the position that there is always a problem with referrals.

In a similar thread started on this board on 2/26/03 by tatoogirl entitled "Why Don't Providers Give References" one provider implied that ladies who used referrals were not discreet with the hobbyist information and that jealousy often reared it's ugly head.

In another thread started on the San Diego board on 11/20/02 by JR69 entitled "Provider Screening" a number of providers tried to give the impression to a new hobbyist that there are almost never any problems with referrals related to jealousy or anything else.  It is interesting to see some of the people that posted on that thread have posted here and apparently have changed their mind some since that thread.  One of the ideas presented here is that the only questions that are asked are "Have you seen him before?" and "Would you see him again?".  In the 11/20/02 thread one of the providers suggested that referrals be handled over the phone to make sure that the "appropriate and enough questions are asked".  In my mind that sounds like she intends to ask more than those two questions.

Fortunately I believe most of the providers and hobbyists are good people.  However as usual we must be careful in determining what lady will provide a good referral(no jealousy or indiscretion).  This can't always be determined by her stellar reviews.

I don't even contact the provider myself, I ask that the client contact the provider himself and either ask the provider to contact me or if time is a facter, just forward the email exchange...example "Hi Provider #1, I'm thinking of seeing, Provider #2 while I'm in LA. Can you give me a referral for her screening process.?"...The forwarded response may go something like: Hi*****, Of course I'll give you the "Thumbs Up" for Provider #2, Have a good time and I hope to see you when you get my way again...Kisses, Provider#1. Not Brain Surgery...Just a courtesy. I too have had a Provider refuse to give a referral to me and have heard that she tells them, if they see me, then she will no longer see them...Very sad, when a provider feels so threatened by another that they forget the wishes of the client.

I find you post very interesting.  And, like you, I do give references and I ask for references.  However, I find that you seem to be very idealistic in the way you think things are in this business.  I’ve only been doing this for a short time, and even in the last year I have learned that a great many of the ladies in the business are very protective of their clientele.  Like you, I believe that the fellows make the rounds and come back if they like you.  

I’ve already had a couple experiences with ladies who said one thing to my face and a totally different thing behind my back.  Those ladies I have had problems with and I do not trust, I would not give a referral to.  I do not want them in my life in any way, and I don’t want to be in their lives in any way.

Some people want to play these games—he said, she said, he said.  I don’t do that.  What you see is what you get, and I’m not going to play these games with a client and another lady.  

What if a fella that you like and have been open with wants to see a lady that is your enemy? You know if he sees her, she’s going to drill him about you?  Do you want to give her that information?  

What about a guy who you’ve had problems with in the past, and he’s asked a lady to contact you?  What do you say to this lady?  Should you tell her the truth that he’s been an asshole?  I’m not talking about a guy who’s stiffed me; I would give up that info.   But, what if this fellow has done something very personal and you know that if you tell somebody else, it’s going to be all over TER and the whole world’s going to know.
So, what about that?  Just advise her not to see him?  

What if the jerk asks you for a referral?  Do you say, “Yes”?  Not me.  I would say “No”, because I wouldn’t put another woman in the same position he put me, knowing what he’s about.  

But then he might tell her that I’m being a bitch and said, “No, that I can’t stand her”, which wouldn’t be true at all.  Or worse, bad-mouth me to the other guys.

So, I believe each situation is different, and there are no written rules about this that work.  You have to use your instinct. You are dealing with people feelings and emotions here. Being politically correct is a tough thing.

May your luggage be a little liter, your world be a little brighter, and your  Wallet over flowing with green stuff…
       “ Who could ask for any thing more.”    
                             Scarlett Rose              

In an ideal world, it work as described above. Unfortunately in a competitive business world, doesn't always. What would you do in a situation where a customer asked you to be a reference for a provider who you new was inresponsible. Let's say she was providing uncovered FS. Do you tell your customer? Do you remain silent? I am positive there are cases when it might be in your interest as well as the community to provide unpleasant information.  Of course this can be abused as a competitive weapon..

Whether a provider provides uncovered sex is NOT something another provider needs to pass on to a client. Just because a client may see a provider that does CBJ's, once, doesn't mean he dislikes BBBJ's. If a client can read, contact other Hobbyists and comunicate with the Provider in question, there is no reason to give YOUR PERSONAL OPINION of an other Provider, except to try to harm her business. I know things about some providers, that I feel are not "my cup of tea", but to mention them to a client, not only would be "Catty" of me, It would also be assuming I could make choices for that client...Not appropriate. I make decisions for no one but myself and I'm secure enough in myself, that I don't need to bring down another Provider to build my own business.

I agree with you. I think that references are by far, the best way to verify a potential client. I was just making an analogy of what her possible motive may have been. But this too is a hard thing, not knowing any of the people you speak about. Perhaps she hated the other person and would say anything to keep the gent away. Or,(this is where my previous analogy comes into play) possibly something she knew of the other provider could potentially harm the gent and she didn't want to go into details (but she should have).