OK, an admittedly sensationalist subject line.  But it got more of you to click on it than if I had written 'Stigmatization of sex work.'

See the link.  This article was sent to me yesterday by an escort friend and sociology student with whom I have a lot fun discussions.  She thought the article was brilliant.  The arguments are common, but it's a great article nonetheless, if you don't mind the academic style.  A lot of you probably don't care.  Fine, click on to something else.  But I know there's a subset of you out there that do: Guys who care a little more about the people they fuck than just whether or not they have nice tits, women who actually see their job as a noble profession rather than a good way to make a few bucks in school, etc.  This is for you.  And maybe some of you LE dudes reading this might want to think about it.  Protecting people is one thing.  Protecting society might be another.

A few excerpts:

"All of us, with the exception of the independently wealthy and the unemployed, take money for the use of our body. Professors, factory workers, lawyers, opera singers, prostitutes, doctors, legislators—we all do things with parts of our bodies for which we receive a wage in return. Some people get good wages, and some do not; some have a relatively high degree of control over their working conditions, and some have little control; some have many employment options, and some have very few. And some are socially stigmatized, and some are not."

"Today, few professions are more honored than that of opera singer; and yet only two hundred years ago, that public use of one’s body for pay was taken to be a kind of prostitution. Looking back at that time, we now think that the judgments and emotions underlying the stigmatization of singers were irrational and objectionable, like prejudices against members of different classes and races. (I shall shortly be saying more about what I think those reasons were.) Nor do we see the slightest reason to suppose that the unpaid artist is a purer and truer artist than the paid artist. We think it entirely right and reasonable that high art should receive a high salary. "

"Prostitution is not a single thing. It can only be well understood in its social and historical context. Ancient Greek hetairai, such as Pericles’ mis- tress Aspasia, have very little in common with a modern call girl.17 Even more important, within a given culture there are always many different types and levels of prostitution: in ancient Greece, the hetaira, the brothel prostitute, the streetwalker; in modern America, the self-employed call girl, the brothel prostitute, the streetwalker (and each of these at various levels of independence and economic success). It is also evident that most cultures contain a continuum of relations between women and men (or between same-sex pairs) that have a commercial aspect—ranging from the admitted case of prostitution to cases of marriage for money, going on an expensive date where it is evident that sexual favors are expected at the other end, and so forth. In most cultures, marriage itself has a prominent commercial as- pect: the prominence of dowry murder in contemporary Indian culture, for example, testifies to the degree to which a woman is valued, above all, for the financial benefits one can extract from her family."

"It will be illuminating to consider the prostitute by situating her in relation to several other women who take money for bodily services:
1. A factory worker in the Perdue chicken factory, who plucks feathers from nearly frozen chickens.
2. A domestic servant in a prosperous upper-middle-class house.
3. A nightclub singer in middle-range clubs, who sings (often) songs re- quested by the patrons.
4. A professor of philosophy, who gets paid for lecturing and writing.
5. A skilled masseuse, employed by a health club (with no sexual services on the side).
6. A person whom I’ll call the ‘‘colonoscopy artist’’: she gets paid for having her colon examined with the latest instruments, in order to test out their range and capability.
By considering similarities and differences between the prostitute and these other bodily actors, we will make progress in identifying the distinctive features of prostitution as a form of bodily service."

"Prostitution, we now see, has many features that link it with other forms of bodily service. It differs from these other activities in many subtle ways: but the biggest difference consists in the fact that it is, today, more widely stigmatized. Professors no longer get told that selling their teaching is a tur- pis quaestus. Opera singers no longer get told that they are unacceptable in polite society. Even the masseuse has won respect as a skilled professional. What is different about prostitution?"



Full article: ‘‘WHETHER FROM REASON OR PREJUDICE’’: TAKING MONEY FOR BODILY SERVICES
MARTHA C. NUSSBAUM Journal of Legal Studies, vol. XXVII (January 1998), via link below or google search.

Gone are the days of skinny waifs traversing dimly lit streets in the bad section of town.  The hookers have migrated with the rest of the world and are on the internet now.  Well okay, street walkers still exist but they’re as like to a ‘netscort’ as lightning is to a lightning bug.  In the hierarchy of prostitution netscorts are around about the upper middle, you won’t see most of us on a yacht with a senator but it’s not impossible and most of the ladies I know wear Louboutin, Kate Spade and Vuitton.  Paid courtesans go to the theater, eat well and have very expensive tastes.  They are hardly the mental shipwrecks that most people in psychology right now would have you believe.  The thing that really chaps the ass of most escorts I know is that when the studies are done and the research is handed in, it’s the street walkers that wind up representing the entirety of sex workers.  It’s something akin to judging the book ‘Flowers for Algernon’ by only reading the last ten pages.  It’s unfair, it’s unkind and most of all it’s glaringly unrealistic picture that gets painted.

Since the beginning of time women have had sex and charm on their side.  Is it so hard to believe that prostitution fills a vital role in our economy?  It’s the one thing that any woman regardless of color, creed or age, can sell.  It’s a ladies own personal renewable resource and anyone who would deny a woman's right to profit from it simply because of an outdated code of social mores is incredibly unjust.  It's something that any woman can use to support herself, forward her education and build her life.  For it to be less accepted by society than the woman with six children who accepts public funding in order to feed and clothe them, just baffles me to my core.  I'm going to bookmark this link, read through it completely and come back to comment.  I am betting money that it agrees with a lot that I have to say on the subject.  Thanks so much for posting it.

We live in a country where separation of church in state is not advocated, but demanded. We also live in a country where the morals of Judeo-Christianity are shoved up our asses at the youngest possible age. In Europe, a far older society where religion and morals have seemed to undergo a separation, sex workers are just considered an accepted part of the workforce. Add to this the American ignorance about the ladies HERE, lumping them in with child exploitation, sexual slavery scenarios for illegally-landed immigrants, and the inner city pimp/drugs/streetwalker deal, and you have a perfect setup for America's prejudicial attitude toward what we do here. There is no question that unsavory situations exist - it's America's enthusiatic approach toward generalization of societal nooks that creates the problem.

A perfect example of this is law enforcement's activity, media coverage, and public attitude of the events in Long Island, ongoing for far too many months now. Had there been teenagers, or suburban housewives, or nuns targeted, there would have been "SERIAL KILLER IN NEW YORK" headlines splattered all over every newspaper in America, and Queens, Nassau, and Suffolk counties would've had a stronger police presence than the Green Zone in Baghdad. The very fact that the targets were prostitutes lowered the initial response's priorities (seemingly) for John Law, and raised the tolerance of the general public and the news media. This is where stupidity and ignorance toward our community's existence becomes not an inconvenience, but a damn disgrace. And it is ALL a result of our daring to mess with the Bible's definition of why we writhe and sweat and moan naked with each other - we're not supposed to do this for fun, but for procreation. And, just for the record, ladies - I love you all!

-- Modified on 4/14/2011 8:38:13 AM

-- Modified on 4/14/2011 9:02:34 AM

I will simply say I love providers!  They fascinate me and turn me on.  They are sexy, ballsy and often very smart.  The kinky ones, who also love what they do are the best of the best.  I could care less about the rest of the judgemental world out there (easy for me to say, I guess).  God Bless the Girls!

have you noticed how many of the articles regarding this situation describe the victims not as women, not as victims, but always as simply PROSTITUTES?  it's okay everyone, you can breathe easy.  he's "only" killing "prostitutes."

fucking infuriating.  one article even used the LI serial killer to plug the television show DEXTER, claiming that the killer may be inspired by him.  ex-fucking-scuse me?  not only is that wholly inaccurate (dexter is a serial killer of serial killers), it absolutely disgusts me that entertainment.com would use the murders of innocent women to plug a fucking television show.  they were INNOCENT.  engaging in prostitution does not make someone subhuman, much less somehow deserving of murder.

sometimes i just wish i could walk away from our culture entirely.  i do my best to exist outside of it to the greatest extent possible.

This is very clear example of the public's "acceptance" of prostitutes when said public is in dire need of the prostitute's services.

Another good book is The Pit (Yama)by A. I. Kuprin.  

Lina

Mr Spit-zer had to resign from his post not because he was some accountant caught with his pants down.  He was ATTORNEY GENERAL well known for his efforts to eliminate prostitution.  

So when a LAW ENFORCEMENT official is caught engaging in unlawful activity that he himself publicly denounces, his staying in the office is unconscionable insult to all constituents of his state.

Neither Spit-ball-zer nor Ashley Dupree were charged with felonies because in order to be charged they had to be CAUGHT.  They did not.  Wire transfers alone do not proof engagement in prostitution.

Lying cheating son of a bitch waited out couple of years living off his father's millions and reentered public life as if nothing happened.

Finally, i HIGHLY doubt that Mary Smith caught in prostitution sting sucking some John Noone will land same lucrative deals as Ms Ashlee Dupree.

Your analysis of this particular situation pretty close to stating that because Bloomberg is super rich, all people who work in finance industry have millions.

Or did you see the version where she did not get hooked on drugs because according to Lifetime that was the only way any woman could be selling her body?

But (assuming you live in the U.S.) you are part of a society that stigmatizes them and criminalizes their profession.

If you love providers so much, I'm surprised you're OK with that and/or don't want to think much about it.

Prejudice is never cool, right?

By your detailed account of how some bad prostitute screwed up your life.

Because you obviously have some very personal issue.

And like on BBB, there are no bad clients, just bad businesses.

Did you ever wonder if some company like IBM for example or local grocery would set up its "Customer review board" how would YOU get rated?

Whenever you look at any website that was designed to provider information about service providers to customers of said providers, regardless of the industry, it always will be biased to certain degree.

No sane provider will come on board to blast her client every time she has NCNS or anything else equally /more unpleasant.

If you are going to base your opinions of entire population segment based on DISCUSSION BOARD, why not join Mr Venkatesh?  He too makes far reaching conclusions based on fictional data.

Lina

Then we seduce them, do everything humanly possible to force them to cheat.

Occasionally we have to use brute force so poor unwilling married man finally has sex with us.

Then we repeatedly force said poor man to keep violating marital vows until he can't take it any longer and confesses to his spouse.

And as a rule, we like to go after happily married couples where husband and wife regularly engage in marital relations, never argue, have a house with white picket fence, 2.5 children and golder retriever.  As a matter of fact, that how we find our victims, keep driving around town till we spot golden retriever behind white picket fence.

Right?

I disagree with Professor Nussbaum.  IMO the public loves prostitutes.  Throughout history, prostitutes have been honored and glamorized in books, operas, and movies - e.g., Camille, Mrs. Warren's Profession, Klute, Butterfield 8, Evita, Pretty Woman, Clients List.  A myth has even arisen about the "Prostitute with the Heart of Gold".  
    The public acceptance of prostitutes is in sharp contrast with the public rejection of drug dealers and loan sharks.  The three occupations are very similar.  Each is technically illegal.  Each exploits the human weaknesses of their "victims" (I concede that the "victims" are voluntary victims).  But whereas prostitutes are glamorized, drug dealers and loan sharks are villified.  Furthermore, whereas the victims (customers) of drug dealers and loan sharks are treated sympathetically by both the law and the public, the victims (customers) of prostitutes are villified by the public and harassed by the law.

Willing victims indeed…lol…

And, the public loves prostitutes. Seriously?  I think an easy test for your theory would be to watch what happens when any sex worker, who has been out of the mainstream workforce for a few years, tries being upfront on her resume when accounting for what she’s been doing for work since her last legal job.

If you’re lamenting that prostitutes are glamorized in popular media, while drug dealers are vilified, I suggest you sample some contemporary gangsta rap for a reality check..

It must be some good shit. I have seen a child ripped from her mothers arms just because she was a prostitute and got caught a few time too often. My wife is a prostitute and My cousin outed both of us, and I was treated much better then my wife was. People especially women for the most part ether pity or hate prostitutes.

Open your eyes. yes there is some media that glorifies prostitutes. For every Show that glorifies prostitutes, there is at lest 10 that shows them as ether victims or villains. Usually prostitutes are shown as soulless gold diggers, hopeless druggies or little more than forced slaves or some combination of the three.

Maybe it's my Sicilian lineage, or maybe it's the hard core Capitalist in me, but I've actually considered a modified version of that line of work.  A provider in Las Vegas read me the riot act when we talked about it, threatening me with 20 lifetimes of bad karma.

I am generally positive towards prostitution as well (big surprise, I know).  Not a big fan of drug dealers, but mostly because of their business practices.  I don't have a huge issue with anyone that sells a product or service that others want or need, so long as their means are relatively ethical.

I concede that a prostitute might have difficulty in getting some legal jobs, but in general prostitutes have excellent post-hobby career opportunities to get legal jobs.  Consider, the case of Ashley Dupre (Eliot Spitzer's ATF prostitute).  Although Ms. Dupre's victim/customer (Eliot Spitzer) was forced to resign as governor and the booking agents of Ms. Dupre were convicted of felonies, Ms. Dupre herself was never even charged with a crime.  Her experience as a prostitute was probably instrumental in
getting her a job as a columnist with the New York Post and as a model for Playboy magazine.  In addition, Ms. Dupre was offered a job by Dennis Hof (owner of the legal Bunny Ranch brothed).  Hof estimated that Ms. Dupre could make $250,000 in a few months.  You shouldn't shed any tears for prostitutes - they always do well money wise.

How's the weather on your planet trowe?

Yes, well...despite the good fortune of Ms Ashley Dupre after her....umm...victimization of poor helpless Eliot Spitzer, you are shockingly out of touch with the reality.

One sex worker, caught up in a highly sensationalized media frenzy, who is then offered other opportunities by other media machines, hoping to ride that wave and keep cashing in on more media sensationalism, is hardly a realistic example that demonstrates "prostitutes have excellent post-hobby career opportunities to get legal jobs"

Suuuure they do........as long as they never let their potential employer know they've been a prostitute.  

People, especially women, for the most part ENVY prostitutes.  In her book, "101 Nights of Grrreat Sex," Laura Corn observes that a leading fantasy of civilian women is to be a prostitute.  Ms. Corn recommends that couples rent a hotel room and play role the prostitute-john situation.
     I do not know what shows/movies you watch, but 100% of the movies/shows I watch concering prostitution, glamorize prostitutes.  On Showtime there is the continuing series. "The Secret Diary of a Call Girl."  On HBO, there is the "Cathouse" series.  Lifetime regularly shows "The Client List."  CNBC has a series on high priced prostitution.  What shows/movies do you watch in which "prostitutions are shown as soulless gold diggers, hopeless druggies, or little more than forced slaves or some combination of the three" ?

I was referring to the length of your post.  Just couldn't deal with it at the moment and just wanted to express my positive feelings about providers anyway.  A bit testy tonight?

On behalf of providers everywhere, I reject your comparing them to loan sharks or drug dealers.  Loan sharks feed on the desperate, suck the lifeblood from their victims and then beat the crap out of them if they don't pay on time.  Drug dealers profit from selling poison to the weak and destroy their lives.  Providers offer the most intimate kind of service that's been popular since even before drugs or money (hence the "oldest profession").  They bring only pleasure and no real harm done.  You win the bad analogy prizel, trowe.

Now I do not have much time to watch many of the newer TV shows as I work, have a family, excreta so I haven't watched most of the shows you are talking about. But what I see on TV in genially very negative.

Shows like NYPD Blue, Cops, Law and Order always cast prostitutes as pimped out abused ladies. Even in Pretty Women one of the two ladies was on drugs and even the heroin was cast as a damsel needing saving form the awful fate of being a sex worker. She was not cast as a lady who loved her job.

I will give you my knowledge of media may be dated. I will grant you that. But can you beat living with a real life prostitute for knowledge on how they are treated by society as a whole?

My wife is a prostitute I see the discrimination. It is real. My wife even does it legally in Nevada and it still has cost us what I thought was friends. Some of my family will not talk to us now they know what my wife does, thanks to my cousin.

People don't usually envy prostitutes. Why do you think many of the ladies in this game lie about it to there friends and family? It is not because they are afraid of being envied. They are afraid of a negative reaction. From my experience there is some justification for that fear.

Yes, many ladies fantasize about being a prostitute, and many ladies fantasize about being a sex slave. Does that mean that they envy slaves? No, it does not. Your argument there does not hold water.

They are bullied by the cop to get a conviction. They get a fine. they pay it. When they go looking for a job they are required to list that conviction. It makes it harder to get anther job that pays a living wage. So many return to prostitution.

The next time they are caught they may get jail time. It is not rare for them to end up losing there children to the courts if there is not a father figure to step in. They have a hard time landing on their feet after a few offences are on their records.

I have seen it. My friend last her kid in that exact way. To pay the lawyers to try to keep her kid she sold every thing she had of value. She literally lost everything. That is how it really works.

Most prostitutes do not make 6 figures that to is a myth. Yes some of the high end ones do. But the ones on Backpage? I am close to several and yes they do make descent money around 50 to 60 thousand a year. But they make know where near the money you seem to think they make.

I really wonder have you even ever really talked to a lady that did this for a living? It like you are describing it.

Are the ladies victims? Usually not. Am I as a client a victim? Hell no. Are you a victim? Maybe of being dropped on your head one to many times, but from a prostitute selling her services? Not unless she is the one who dropped you on your head.

You sir need to open your eyes. And pass what ever it is you are smoking as it really must be some good stuff.

(a) cheated on her husband, (b) brought disgrace to her family, (c) manipulated her customers into giving her generous gifts and tips, and (d) repayed that generosity by outing her customers to LE.  Despite all this the show, the lady is made out to be the heroine and her customers are made out to be jerks.  If that doesn't show the public bias towards prostitutes, I don't know what does.

It is very common practice, in many corp (academic/other) organizations to levy strict sanctions on current, or potential employees who admit to having been involved in, or get caught in ANY illegal activity.

Were a woman to acknowledge, in any way that she was now, or had ever been, engaged in prostitution, she would not even be eligible for consideration for a job within many organizations.

I have read Boule de Suif and am aware of the Pit.  However, I don't see that either of these works support your arguments.  IMO they are just another of the pro-prostitute literary tradition of glamorizing prostitutes and demeaning their customers.

You make a good point that there are cop shows that demean streetwalkers.  However, none of your examples address offstreet prostitutes.  Every TV show/movie that I am aware of glamorizes the offstreet ladies.  I agree that many older ladies lie about their profession to friends and family.  However, many younger ladies claim to openly discuss their profession with their friends and are recruited to the hobby, not by pimps or madams, but by their friends.  One lady even told me that her mother was aware of her profession and baby sat the kids while she was turning tricks!

Thanks to TER and its competitors, I have not had any bad personal experiences in this hobby.  However, the reviews and regional board discussions demonstrate that there a lot of bad providers out there.

I concede that providers are usually more genteel than loan sharks.  However, your argument that providers "bring only pleasure and no real harm done" is a gross oversimplification.  Providers have wrecked many a marriage.  For example, there is a current thread "Married Hobbyist" in the Washington DC regional board where a hobbyist describes how this hobby severely damaged his marriage.  The analogy among providers, loan sharks, and drug dealers is valid.  Each occupation provides valuable services when used in moderation, but when used to excess the consequences can be tragic.

Providers are no different than loan sharks or drug dealers? But, you concede that providers are usually more genteel than loan sharks? USUALLY?

Providers have wrecked many a marriage.

You poor men are “victims” of providers

YOU have no control? YOU have no choice in whether YOU cheat on your wife?

When YOU fall “victim” to the evil wiles of a provider, SHE is to blame for damage done to your marriage?

What? Do these women force men to spend countless hours perusing escort ads? Then force men to figure every way under the sun to think-up plausible excuses to find the time to go see providers? Do they then drag you poor powerless creatures, at gun point, to the ATM 6 separate times before your next session so you can withdraw what is, hopefully, an unnoticeable amount of money from your checking account? Do they supply you boys with an untraceable “hobby phone” so you can call and text, and email  providers without your wife finding out?

Oh wait…then providers force men to relive the whole terrible experience by making  them write  reviews to be posted to TER---often making them revise them multiple times to get final approval for posting?

And, if all of that was not evil enough, providers then compel you to post unbelievably off the charts, stupid and insulting horseshit on the discussion board.

Those bitches.

I concede that the customers of providers, like customers of drug dealers and loan sharks, must be held accountable for their actions.  Providers do not routinely go looking for married men and do not use brute force to force married (or unmarried) men to have sex with them.  However, providers are aware that most of their customers are married and do not screen out married men.  Through sexy photos and suggestive ads, providers seduce men and make no attempt to determine if a customer can afford to pay their rates.  If a provider decides to out or blackmail a customer, she is indifferent to the damage such actions might do to the customer.

They are still a minority that are completely open to there entire family and friends. Look I was friends with some for years that I didn't know what they did until after I found out about my wifes return to the business. Then they told me only after they seen that I accepted my wifes choice to do so.

Start a thread and ask the ladies how open they are abut their job. I would be willing to bet real money that most are not open with everyone in their civie life they are close to.

Here is a thread about how some ladies were treated by there SO after he was informed. Notice haw many of the ladies had issue when they where open and how many are not.

Please look at the whole truth and not the BS shown on those TV shows you watch. The stigma on these ladies is not a positive in their lives. Look at how the media is treating the long Island killer brought up above. If it was a house wife killer there would be much more said.

You chose to lie, cheat, and spent family resources on said cheating. The provider did none of those things. Please do not blame your failure as a man on others. You wrecked you marriage not the provider you used to do so. Please take responsibility for your own choices.

I agree that MH bears most of the responsibility for the failure of his marriage.  Similarly, customers of drug dealers and loan sharks bear most of the responsibility for the bad outcomes in their lives.  However, providers, drug dealers, and loan sharks, share in the bad outcomes of their customers.  IMO they need to determine if their customers can handle their goods and services and they should reject customers who cannot.

I want the same prescription.

Lina

I profoundly disagree.  "Providers have wrecked many a marriage?"  Give me a break!  The provider didn't wreck the marriage, the philandering John did!  In fact, the provider herself probably didn't even know if the guy was married.  And to describe loan sharking and drug-pushing (and I do distinguish between marijuana and heroin or crack) as "valuable services," is stretching reality beyond the breaking point.  C'mon, trowe, you usually make a lot more sense than this!

In almost any business to is up to the customer to determine if their product is right for that customer.  McDonald's sold me many of hamburger but do they hold any responsibly in the fact I weigh twice what I should? Guess what, no they do not as not once did they make me eat one. I chose to buy the hamburger, then I chose to eat it, and I chose to do so a lot.

Same thing with prostitutes. There customers chose to see them. It is non of the ladies business if he is in a situation where he should be seeing them. It is his. Just like it was none of McDonald's business with why a man as fat as I am buying their product.

Sorry I mis read your post but my point still stands. We are all adults. We are all 100% responsible for our choices. I that guy on the DC board chose to ruin his life by seeing a prostitute it is 100% his fault and not the ladies. Same goes with you, me, and the next guy/gal. I do not want to live in a place where I am not allowed to make my own messes and live with those choices. Do you?

You absolve providers and McDonald's of any responsibility for the misuse of their goods and services.  Do you also absolve drug dealers and loan sharks of any responsibility for the misuse of their goods and services?  If yes, I disagree, but respect your consistent position.  If no, why the inconsistency?  Despite the numerous posts on this thread, I am still at a loss as why people love classy prostitutes and hate drug dealers and loan sharks.  At least, drug dealers and loan sharks do not try to entice and seduce customers, whereas classy prostitutes do intentionally try to entice and seduce customers.

I disagree that "the provider herself probably didn't even know if the guy was married."  Every provider knows (or should know) that the overwhelming majority of hobbyists are either (a) married men who admit to being married or (b) married men who pretend to be single.  There is so much free p*ssy available to single men.

I'm never testy!

Can either of us say we're completely sure about the percentage of married vs. unmarried men who see providers?  My impression, from having read this board and similar ones on other sites, is that there's a very high percentage of men who at least describe themselves as being unmarried.  They are all anonymous, so why would they lie?  My impression is it's pretty close to 50-50.  No way to be sure, of course.

I will say I hold the druggie mostly responsible for his situation and the same for those buried in to much debt. But do to fact this is not the P&R board and the last time I went political on this one I was moderated, I will not elaborate. (I just got unmoderated and would like to stay that way.)

Also trust me most people are not pro prostitute. This just happens to be a hooker/john board. I am sure is you went to a pro druggie board  you would find many pro drug dealer people there. If people were pro prostitute the laws would be different.

As the only provider I had booked has been informed, I can now freely state that I have left the hobby.

If I have left the hobby, how can it be that all these women have somehow twisted my mind in order to lead me astray? If these women are so all-fired powerful and their siren's song so irresistible -- how is it that I can freely choose to walk away?

I have never had a provider seduce me. Have I had providers give me pleasure? Yes. Friendship? Yes. Wonderful conversation? Yes. Interesting insights from which I have learned much? Yes. But never, not even once, has a provider ever tried to lead me to do anything *that wasn't already my intent*.

Frankly, in most cases, providers simply are not in a position to perform a competent seduction. They do not have the time, they do not have the access and they do not have the freedom to truly seduce somebody. All they really do is present themselves for men who have *already decided* that they will be seeking a woman with whom to have sex. The real question is "which woman." Provider advertising is oriented toward helping men who have already decided to have sex with a provider choose the right woman for that purpose. It is NOT sufficient to induce a man who doesn't already have the intent.

So, sorry to inform you, but providers are not predators and their clients are not victims.

Recommended reading: The Art of Seduction

Providers do not, at least the vast majority of ethical ones, actually SEDUCE men. If you think they seduce men, then you haven't the slightest clue of what seduction really is.  (Note: There does exist a class of providers that specifically targets certain men for authentic seduction for monetary gain. However, this proportion of the provider population is so minuscule that they will not be further considered, and they do not present a risk to most hobbyists anyway.)

As someone who was once ACTUALLY seduced, and not this playground stuff that floats around the hobby, let me tell you what seduction is really like from the victim's perspective. And when it comes to REAL seduction, the other participant is indeed a victim.

Real seduction is conquest and ownership. It has nothing to do with love and is devoid of any kindness that is not contrived. It is the use of a very advanced understanding of the psychology of persons combined with well-honed empathic skills to turn someone into what is essentially a falsely-held love slave in a single-sided relationship.

This happened to me when I was newly dating, owned a few companies and so had a target on my back for gold diggers, and was terribly inexperienced and naive regarding such things. Before I knew it, I was practically a woman's servant and was affording her a luxurious lifestyle I would never have provided even myself, etc. I can't even describe what it was like because I simultaneously loved/hated and both wanted to and dreaded to escape. It's like I was in some sort of prison that I loved and hated. When I finally did escape, in metaphorical terms I had to chew off an emotional arm to get away and it was a long time before I was again capable of feeling anything romantically. Even afterwards, and even though I am a former military guy who has seen his share of bad things, I literally had periodic nightmares about this woman for several years after. To this very day, I have never allowed a woman with blond hair to touch me again.

Once, a few years ago, I ran into her. She literally got on her knees in full view in public and begged my forgiveness for what she had done. Well, at least that's something. Maybe she grew a conscience, or maybe it was another attempt for round 2. But you can bet your ass I didn't give her my number so she could call me up to chat about old times.

That is what the aftermath of a REAL seduction is like.

If you think providers actually seduce their clients, then you've never seen a provider. Providers by and large, even if they were so inclined, wouldn't want to deal with the mess it creates. The hobby is generally not a good environment to allow for a competent seduction. And in the case of those few providers who truly ARE seductresses in the most evil sense of the term in which I am using it, they are not even available to most potential clients as they are saving their skills for better prey.

99.9% of the hobby is willing men and willing women engaging in a mutually beneficial exchange devoid of any form of subterfuge or manipulation.

Every provider I ever saw while hobbying treated me with utmost in genuine caring and respect, and never tried to seduce me or harm me in any way. Quite honestly, I have been treated better and more honestly by providers than by civies.

And, for the record, one of the ladies I saw who is a close personal friend of mine does, in fact, assure that hobbyists only see her if they are not depriving their families of needed resources in so doing. Highly -- and I do mean HIGHLY -- ethical providers DO exist.

On a hot summer day, when all the married men heard you ringing the bell announcing your arrival- they would come running down the street, 100 dollar bills in hand! You would undoubtably be wearing a REALLY low cut blouse and be licking a pink popcicle... You would be the escort version of the Pied (sp?) Piper!  All those poor, innocent, defenseless, married men would be completely POWERLESS.. And have NO CHOICE but to follow you! LOL! Too funny...

Lina, I am impressed. Very well spoken, well said and well thought out arguments. Kudos...

You mean to say that you ladies don't drive sex-cream trucks and seduce married men who are powerless to resist you pied piper like siren's call?

Damn, That was the story I was going to give the police if I ever got busted on how exactly I had no choice. You ladies made me do it. LOL

Your post was the funniest thing I read in a while. Thanks

Webster - seduce:  "to persuade to engage in unlawful sexual intercourse."   Almost every provider website has photos of the provider either nude or scantily clad.  In addition, the provider websites usually contain suggestive language.  For example, in the website of TER member,dddbabe, the provider talks about her SEDUCTIVE beauty and promises all sorts of sensual delights if the customer buys one of her packages.  If the photos and suggestive language on provider websites aren't attempts to persuade a hobbyist to engage in unlawful sexual intercourse, what are the purpose of the photos/language?

Congratulations on finding an ethical provider.  However, most providers do not take any efforts to "assure that hobbyists only see her if they are not depriving their families of needed resources in so doing"