I know this issue has come up multiple times, so please feel free to ignore it and go on. LOL.

I think I just lost a semi-regular client when I declined his offer to go with him to a concert.

We had finished a very nice session and he happened to mention he was going to scalp a couple of tickets because his male buddy couldn't make a concert this weekend.

Then he said, "Hey, I know you like the group, so why don't you and I go?" (no mention of any compensation.)

I told him, thank you so much for offering, but I said it was kind of an awkward situation because I would feel strange or guilty charging a nice guy like himself for my time on the date.

His face fell and he left abruptly. I realized he felt insulted that I would have even considered charging him for my off the clock time.

I do enjoy his company a lot, but he doesn't understand that I would rather go to a concert with my boyfriend. However, if this was a "business" date with some form of compensation (not necessarily the full hourly amount), it would have been a fun idea.

I don't know of any way to salvage the situation.

I hope other clients will always be very careful in these situations. Either wait for the lady to voluntarily ask to go out on the town with you off the clock (without charge), or ask her up front what she would charge to go out to dinner or whatever. Then don't be hurt if she mentions a figure rather than says it's gratis.

And I do thank the 99% of the gentlemen who do keep the boundaries intact between business and personal time.

It does happen, I've had clients, that the more you see them, the more they expect from you. They forget that this is a business and that we have lives outside it.

Not, a good situation to be in and it doesn't happen often, thank goodness.

I feel that I give 100% and when they start demanding 120%, they are asking to much from me.

I had a client, that I had seen many times, that was very upset that I wore jeans (nice)to see him. Come on!

Aren't you suppose to be interested in whats inside those jeans!

I've realized that can't please everyone. Some people you give an inch and they want a mile.    

Don't put expectations on people, then you won't have to worry  about being disappointed!



-- Modified on 4/2/2004 10:34:15 PM

Sounds to me he wanted to go with you as a friend and not as a client....

All of the providers I've seen I would love to become friends with them and just sit and chat with them. No Sex. No strings attached. The transaction from client to friend is nearly impossible I guess.

If I invite the girl, I assume it is on the clock and will ask what the rate will be. If she invites me, then it is off the clock. I make certain of this beforehand as tactfully as possible, but it has been my experiance that when I am invited it is " off the clock ".

My two cents.  Try - really hard - to keep work, work and social life separate.  It's very much like the episode of Seinfeld where there is the relationship George and the group George.  The two worlds should never meet.

It sounds like you handled the situation with tact.  Your client was most likely heart broke but he will likely come around and realize he values his time with you.

I've been there with a provider.  Friends that is.  It can be very hard for both people because at some point one or both of you may cross that line to - dare I say it - love.  And then it gets a we bit sticky.

But please be gentle with us poor guys.  Remember you ladies are in total control whether we admit it or not.

Go down and read me question about providers running off with me.

You are setting yourself up to be hurt and hurt bad.

If the client had asked you not to wear jeans but instead to wear a dress or skirt, then he has a right to be upset.  He wants to create a fantasy and for him that involves the whole "visual package" from start to finish. So if there is some type of clothing that is a turn off for him, why shouldn't you dress the way he likes?

Personally, I think you handled it wrong.  It seemed like he was asking you on a non-professional date, completely separate from the business.  If it wasn't a client asking, would you say "I would feel guilty charging you" or would you say "No.  Thank you, but I am unavailable."

After you said no, if he then offered compensation, that would be one thing, but by bringing up the compensation in that manner, you made him feel demeaned.  Like he was nothing but an ATM.

Just my take on the situation.

Hell...that's perfectly fine and natural. You have a significant other so that's more than an appropriate reason. So, be upfront and honest and tell him that and for now,you don't mix your business with pleasure.Where you went wrong, IMO, is mentioning the "meter running" aspect without the WHY; especially if he is a regular client.

Most guys would appreciate the honesty.

...but if you did not have a SO... would you go off the clock?

I'll answer for you and correct me if I'm wrong.I would imagine it would be a case of reverse YMMV.There are many threads on that already... but in a nutshell, would this be a guy you would date "off the clock"? If the answer is no, I'm sure you can come up with a very good reason to let him down gently without losing a customer and hurting his feelings.Afterall, your a professional courtesan and it goes with the territory.

Cheers!

-- Modified on 4/3/2004 7:18:16 AM

I was in a siuation like that, however I went over. I really enjoyed the time spent with him, he became a good friend. But then when he wanted to make love I charged him. I felt guilty, the emotions ran high with him. However he understood that I to had to make a livin.
IMO, if you really like the guy, go for it! A good friend is always hard to find.
If you only see him one way, then keep it stricky professional.

-- Modified on 4/3/2004 8:02:32 AM

two real life examples as happend to me:

beautiful, intelligent, socially refined girl... we felt connection, tried dating, we both were terribly confused about what stage of the relationship we were at because the "professional" realtionship was wildly out of sync with the way that civilian realtionship develop, then we found out that we didn't have as much to talk about as we thought we would, then she tells me about her deep seated trust issues because she was taken from her family at an early age and none of her realtionships could last for more than the briefest time, sure enough ,she "needed" to break it off, changed her phone numbers, went into paranoid psychodrama mode... buh bye sweetie !

second story, beautiful, way intelligent in the vacinity of brilliant-near genius mind, socially a little awkward, we felt connection, e-mailed each other endlessly, slowly (going slow is a GOOD strategy with these civvie-professional relations) came to see that we had more in common, interestwise, than either of us had expected. The first experience sure taught me a great lesson in handling these things.... trust issues are paramount... Is she nuts ? am I nuts ? Is she playing me ? Does she think I'm playing her ? Why am I doing this ? When do we get cold feet ? Is this whole thing an illusion that blows up with our first fight when we let it all hang out ?

the second story worked out, took time, patience, working through small minded emotions to get ourselves to the bigger picture, like, what is really cool and life enhancing about this person, how does she make me grow ? how do I make her grow ? If the bottom line is that you feel like you're growing in useful ways, it's probably worth the hassles. If you feel like you're stagnating, pull up and move on.

I totally understand the scenario your talking about with the Seinfeld episode.

I now try not to mix my work with my social life because when I did office politics came into play and the office gossip was ridiculous.

Well in my case my provider friend actuall had the nerve to complain about a second pop and went apeshit over a third request ina 2 hour appt.  And she pushes some for 2 in an hour appt.  My case my quote "Friend" was trying to get away will 50% effort because she thought she could. I neve asked for 120% but with the relationship we shared I deserved at LEAST 100% since she was too damn greedy to even offer a discount.  Not 1/2 effort for 100% the going rate. And then ask for help on my time for free.

I would help for free, but a relationship is give and take, not just take.

Well in my case my provider friend actuall had the nerve to complain about a second pop and went apeshit over a third request ina 2 hour appt.  And she pushes some for 2 in an hour appt.  My case my quote "Friend" was trying to get away will 50% effort because she thought she could. I neve asked for 120% but with the relationship we shared I deserved at LEAST 100% since she was too damn greedy to even offer a discount.  Not 1/2 effort for 100% the going rate. And then ask for help on my time for free.

I would help for free, but a relationship is give and take, not just take.

It's a choice for both of you.

You can risk losing a regular, which means over a year or more, if they see you 10 times, it can be up to 3-4,000 USD you lose. Or you can maybe do one "free" concert date, where he may pay for an hour later and you continue to see him as a regular. You may lose a few hundred for the time. It's a balancing act. Any SO who knows the situation cannot complain.

For the hobbyist, his choice is less monetary, though not totally. He isn't in competition for you. There are hundreds of other providers he can choose from

there is a solution though. Talk out a compromise if you want to retain him as a regular.

For me, a provider who compromises after I have seen her many times rather than resorting to the "it's a business" line, is more likely to remain attractive and a regular than one who has hard a steadfast rules.

The idea that business has rules that can't be broken is simply a myth..

Everything is negotiable!

If a man cannot accept the word no, he is FREE to walk on. Both of us genders do need to remember where one leaves off there is another one that takes their place-both men and women here. Many choices for both parties. Do not get me wrong for I love seeing my clients but there is a line that does need to be drawn between a professional life and downtime life. If he is looking to book more time with me fine I will be happy to add more time during our session, provided that I am being compensated on. I have spent many times going out to dinners, movies, concerts and I have always had a great time, and I had received  compensation for those times. The men need not ask if it were free time, and I assume that they have real wives, and or girlfriends that they have that they can spend that time with other than me. But they chose me, and knew by being with me that I am a paid companion not your wife or your girlfriend. Otherwise, if a guy wants something for nothing please go find a wife or girlfriend. That is what they are there for!

-- Modified on 4/3/2004 11:54:58 AM

you lost a potential customer. Think of this in the business world where clients/customers are wined and dined. The question you should ask yourself is not whether he is worth dating had you not had an SO, as someone above suggested. The most important issue in IMHO is how you approach this business. Why you are in the business is very clear.... its the "how" you go about it that makes the difference.

Your success between being just another providor and a true courtesan (the ultimate), lies is in this fine line between your ambitition to make money v. your willingness to be flexible in given situations. Which in the case you had mentioned would have been a win/win situation for either way. You would have not lost nothing. Your desire to make money made you loose your common sense.

who more?".

You are both right in playing "hardball" on behalf of your respective provider/client persectives in your negotiating by saying "you need me more than I need you", which is implied by your statements that each is perfectly happy to live without the other.  In hardball negotiations, whoever blinks first loses, but to win you have to be truly ready to walk away from the deal and be OK with that.

he cannot have me for spending more time with him, during my downtime. So it does go both ways. I am not wet behind the ears here. I have been here for more than 2 years. I have turned down some men who I felt that there would be no chemistry and offered to find someone more to their liking. I have been turned down for something they would presume were better. It does work both ways. That is just how this hobby/business works. I have also come to realize that there are jerks on both sides here. If a man doesn't want to be taken advantage why should a woman? Should I always agree to meet with a man off time when I have other clients who want to see me? Do you think that that is fair to those who are looking to book my time? No. I don't. I am just being realistic in saying that people come people go there are many people out there in this lifetime we may never meet. Some we may meet. But for someone to say to me that I am losing a good client, because I made the decision of saying NO because I don't feel comfortable in spending off time with him, is for me to say that I don't respect my own choices, views, and that I need to only respect his. That his views of spending off time with me, is more important than my views of having personal time spent with myself. Also, if he couldn't take the word NO, or handle any tupe of cordial rejection, remain on friendly terms with me, why would I want to have him as a client??? I would always feel uncomfortable being around him for he could always try to cajole something more out of me, than I think is necessary. Should any woman in this business be put into this position? No.  I certainly do not go into any major chain store demanding that I get an item there for free LOL They would look at me as if I had two heads or something. Infact I bet they would tell me the same thing I would tell someone who was looking for a freebie: Ah, No. lol I do want to add that for many years I have also worked in the corporate world too. When we got overtime we were paid for it. I really don't see the difference other than we are talking about two different commodities here but with the same purpose : something that you BUY-not get for free-to use. I am pretty sure my  0.02 cents here is being perceived as lowly but it is my point of view





-- Modified on 4/3/2004 12:46:54 PM

..... is being taken advantage of. He offered her a great experience to go do something fun. What part of having fun is being considered as being taken advantage of. If she did not want to go, all she had to be was  tactful in her response and say she had other plans for that evening.

There is also something you are missing from her post. She refers to him as a semi-regular. Which in my book is a potential gold mine for future dates. Not just any person who comes and goes. There is already a context for their relationship. Again because of the so called “taken advantage” of thinking. She potentially lost a customer that would have given her a substantial amount of income, not to mention potential references/business he could send her way. As I said in my previous post your success lies in how you are flexible in approaching each given situation. Measure it and respond in a way that is face saving for both parties.

Yes he may also have lost something. So the million dollar question is who lost more. But then again what do I know, at the end of the day you are the one running your business, and should know what is best.

I am often amazed at how a regular can be taken for granted in this business. This seems to be more common among new or younger providers.  Those with more experience seem to appreciate regulars more.  In my business, we fall over backwards to take care of our regular customers.

This is your business and you can run it as you choose.  However, in any business or professional relationship, it is important to let a valued client/customer know that he is special and that you appreciatie his business by going the extra yard.  This doesn't necessarliy mean an occasional dinner or social event off the clock, but could be free service on his birthday, extra time once a year, a little gift, or whatever.  Perhaps the concert was too much "sacrifice" on your part but that isn't the point.  It is the notion of doing something special (even if just a small gesture) for a valued customer that is important.

This happens in the conventional business and professional world every day and is important in cementing and maintaining long term relationships.  If regulars (safe, known entity, recurrent source of income, etc) are important to you, then you need to let them know they are important to you, otherwise they will find another provider who appreciates their business more than you do.

We women do know what is best for our business. Sometimes we do fail.  We make mistakes. Sometimes we win in dealings. We are human, let us not forget. In the end, these are OUR choices that we women make. No one else. IN this case here, apparently he was miffed, because he couldn't get his way. Maybe his idea of fun was not up to her parr. Apparently from what she said, correct me if I am wrong, that she has a boyfriend (already) that she chooses to spend her down time with. GOOD FOR HER!  It all came down to her saying no, and him not being able to take rejection. Well as my late grandmother would tell me when I was a little girl: Tough Cookies! lol We can't always get what we want.  Correct?


I do say to the provider above- if he is miffed,  and doesn't come back, there are plenty of men who are of ATF material to take his place. These men are MATURE ENOUGH not to take it personally, who are not stomping their feet like a 2 year old, saying me! me! me! Who will still come back for more of your "personal style" of putting a smile on his face ))) Those are the men we smile when they call us, send us personal notes of hello, and just remain through out the time that you know him, a true gentleman!



-- Modified on 4/3/2004 1:22:06 PM

It sounds like you are saying that in order to keep a good client she should go to an event off the clock. All that does is confuse the personal and business relationships. Why do so many guys try to ruin a good business relationship by taking it to the personal level. Guys need to remember that this is a fantasy. You are paying her to make you think she enjoys being with you (she may or may not). We need to remember what is fantasy and what is reality. I think she did the right thing in not leading him on and allowing him to confuse fantasy and reality.

As much as it is fantasy, we also live in the real world, with real people.
In order to become successful in any business transactions, one must know business 101

that means, good advertisement, good repore with clients. And if they are exceptional clients make they feel extra special.

Business is business!!
Lawyer take the extra time, sometimes without charge to represent you

Doctors offer free consultation.

Mechanics take off and cut down prices,

All in order for the clients to come back.

Yes you give outstanding services, sometimes you have to give a bit more of yourself and recieve more.

Reap what you sow!!

Even guys most aware of the boundaries can lose track of this late in a session, I think.

I suggest that your refusal, especially coming at the end of a session, not mention money or compensation.  Use a different excuse, one that's not so shattering to the fantasy he's having just then.  Once he comes down from the after-effects, he may realize what it is anyway.  But if he does persists then, or asks you repeatedly after sessions, then you have to divulge it.

/Zin

This is an excellent point.  Many businesses that are by-the-hour (lawyer, accountant, therapist) begin as a strict pay-for-everything relationship.  However, as an owner of my own small business in one of those fields, I have many clients who I do not charge for all the time that I spend with them or working on their behalf.

It is absolutely a balancing act.  I need to balance the money that I give up by not charging for my time against the likelihood that I will lose the client (either immediately or in the future) if I charge for the time.

I frequently accede to client expectation of / request for some free time, even if I don't think the request is reasonable, as long as I can make clear that the freebie is an isolated event.

Having said all of that, many of my colleagues go the other way, and charge for everything.  I certainly respect those (in my industry and this one) who charge for everything and tend more toward the all-clients-are-fungible approach.

What I don't get is the line of

"However, if this was a "business" date with some form of compensation (not necessarily the full hourly amount), it would have been a fun idea."

As others have said - you can certainly do as you wish. and it would make more sense to me if you'd said it would be a "OK" idea or something similar, I could understand. But why would fun enter the equation for you, if you're only looking at the guy as a client and source of income?

Certainly a lot harder to keep personal and business seperate in such a business as this - I have a hard enough time differentiating between "friends" and "business associates" in my own (sales/merchandising).

Really, wouldn't it have made more sense to just look at the offer for what it was - an offer of a concert ticket from someone who liked spending time with you? If you wanted to go to the concert with him, great - go. If not, make up some excuse not to go - don't even mention the money/compensation aspect of it. You're out of town, another appt, etc. Then his feelings aren't hurt, and you don't have to spend unpaid time with him if you don't want.

I really don't understand all the problems here. I have made offers to several gals to go to dinner and a show, or take on a weekend trip to a fun place, etc. etc. etc.. Sometimes the answer has been "yes", sometimes it has been "no". The offers were made to only those gals I had a good relationship with and whose company (non sexual) I enjoy. Sex was NOT an expectation in the friendly invitation and where it did occur, it was on a compensated basis. I have to assume that there are a number of guys like me who don't want to go through all the BS of taking a civilian on some of these fun things 'cause of all the "games" that usually go along with it. What's wrong with asking a provider if she has any interest in doing something with you that might be fun for her also? Is it always about the money for her? I think not. And, if her response happens to be "no", why should any guy be blown away by that? Haven't you ever invited a friend to do something which they declined? Bet ya didn't get blown away by it. I think it is VERY possible to enjoy a friendship with someone while, at the same time, engaging in a business relationship also.

I disagree. She was telling him what the state of thier relationship was in a clear, non -degrading way. We are all adults here, so he knows the score. I think she handled it with tact and class.

While you could have been a little more gentle in your "no" response, you are right. As painful as it may be to our egos sometimes, we [guys] shouldn't loose sight of the fact that if it were not for the "business" the charming women we see probably wouldn't even notice us. It is only within that business context that our friendly relationships exist. Once with a provider that i saw fairly often, when she came to my room she said that she felt like going out for a drink, and could we do that before the "time" began. We walked to a nearby pub, spent a delightful hour or so, then went back to the room where she actually stayed for longer than we had agreed on. On another ocassion, we talked about an exhibit I had been to. When she expressed an interest in going, I gave her two tickets that someone had given to me. She could have said why don't we go together, but she didn't and i was not upset. On the other hand the next time we met, we enjoyed talking about the aspects of the exhibit that we particularly enjoyed, so I got "my moneys worth" that way. So, while the relationships do not have to be cold, they are still primarily business.

Well he shouldnt have put you in that situation really
He should have known to have either asked you in advance and you could have replied that "you dont do that" or "made an agreement with him"

Also you had just been with him, and he should understand that you either had plans or would feel uncomfortable that he responded like that

Well he shouldnt have put you in that situation really
He should have known to have either asked you in advance and you could have replied that "you dont do that" or "made an agreement with him"

Also you had just been with him, and he should understand that you either had plans or would feel uncomfortable that he responded like that

Let's get real here, if she knows how to run a business she wouldn't be providing, now would she?

He took a chance and asked.

You responded honestly.

He was hoping.

He was wrong.