OK. Nobody reads these any more. "It's that dufus Socrates talking about ethics again..." Christine appears to be happilly married - only concerned that I stall depsositing the postdated checks she gave me in such a way that it does not screw up her ability to manage her accounts.
No songle message that does not deal with money. Ever. I come to a forum where money is KING to look for understanding. Just flyppin' typical.
The ethical decision is still the same. All we can do is do what we think is right at the time.
Anybody got any ideas beyond "you are compulsively neaive and nothing can save you." Well, I knew THAT.
I am too much of a cretin to be dealt with.
Sorry, BYE.
It's a small thing but when a gent shows up with roses, a card, a special gift, a book or chocolates, I get all mushy and it really makes the difference. Maybe it's because all the guys I dated (my ex of 8 years never gave me flowers or a necklace or anything like that), never gave me any of those things so even though it's just a fantasy, it makes it feel so real and so romantic to me, like a lover that lusts after me so much that he had to figure out a plan on how he was going to get out of the supermarket with a dozen peach roses, without being noticed.
Signed,
Completely wow'd by the romantic man...
HB
you just picked the wrong guys. Shoot, when I was married I sent my wife (personally went to the florist every time) flowers every single month on the anniversery of our first date. 59 months before she chose to separate from me, and then I sent them one more time - to make it five years without a miss. Trouble was that we got along so well from the beginning that we never raised our voices to each other the whole time.
That was the problem - it's called lack of "passion", and by the end we were both pursuing separate career paths and outside interests and just drifted apart with nary a hostile day. We're still great friends. She found her great love, and they do everything together (including argue (-: ) and he's never sent flowers that I know of.
Had lunch with her the other day and complimented her the nice outfit she was wearing slacks, jacket, sweater - she says "You should like it, you bought it; but, then, you bought me so much stuff, you might've forgotten." I'm serious. All that didn't make for great love relationship. Go figure.
I agree with FOOLISHJON,
Not everyone is as passionate and that goes both ways or it gets lost. In my meetings I always bring either a bottle of the finest Champagne I can afford and or a bottle of Merlot, women’s favorite in addition of other things.
If for some reason the ladies (Both Friends & Providers) do not drink then I provide them with Flowers, Scented Candles, Godiva Chocolates or Chocolate Covered Strawberries too name a few.
To my girlfriends I've always given them flowers and other gifts for their Birthday's, St. Valentines and our Anniversaries but if I am traveling I always make sure I send them at least an e-card with a gift certificate.
Several hobbyists I have spoken too have also taken the initiative of going the extra mile and providing the ladies they meet with such things since it brings more passion into it whether is a provider or a real girlfriend.
I am 41 years old; come from the old school so being detailed is always on the menu.
Peace,
Seth A/K/A The Doctor
Okay I, know Im about to get slammed but here it goes. Heather, why is it you and a lot of women don't marry or stay with the guy who sends the flowers, candy, does the romance things etc. You stayed 8 years with a guy who didn't. This other guy, foolishjon, had a wife of years, never agrued, did the romance thing, and still the marriage failed.
I know its over simplimatic but why is it that women claim they want the romance, compassion etc. yet will gravitate toward the "bad boy" before giving the good guy they say they want a chance. I heard this straight from a woman a few weeks ago, and I quote "Many women will loose respect and attraction for a man if he is predictable and safe". Foolishjon gave his wife flowers like clock work yet he claims his wife is now, and I quote "her great love", yet they argue and fight. I guess he hit it on the head about touching on the passion that comes with some disfuntional relationships. Haven't we all had the most intense make-up sex after a bad arguement.
If I had a dime for every woman who I heard say, "Why can't I find a good man" and I literally will point out men who may be a good match for what they are saying they want, and they will reject him for whatever reason.
I will say Heather, that not all boyfriends and husbands don't give flowers. Many do. The question you need to ask yourself is why did you stay all those years with a man who didn't, yet you indicate that is what you seek and desire? Did you not express that to him? If he was not that type of man, why did you stay with him instead of choosing one who would do the gift and flowers thing?
As a man I get pissed at times when I hear that from women. A person is not going to change who they are. Don't expect them to, man or woman. People make the mistake when they say, I like a certain part about a person and I can get them to change their other character traits in time. Or the worst is "if he or she loves me, they will change". Either you accept a person as they are and be willing to grow with them or leave them alone. A person will change because they want to and very rarely to please someone else. They may do it for a short period of time but over the long run, wil return back to their past behavior.
What a waste to wait so many years expecting this guy to bring you roses and he not. What a even bigger kick in the gut to bring the flowers and not be appreciated for it. I bet you Heather if you were with Foolishjon, you would eventually get tired like his wife did because with the flowers coming like clockwork would make it predictable and you would not appreciate the attention that much.
I know guys have all had the situation where you did bad things in a relationship and the woman kept coming back. I know we all have also had the experience where we treated the lady like a queen and could get the time of day.
Just my two cents. I'm out!
"Now hit my music!"
-- Modified on 4/27/2002 9:15:37 AM
Thank you, smooth operator. Being a smooth operator doesn't cut it in the world of romance.
I have had an immensely frustrating history of romance. The girls I really wanted and treated like queens insisted on being friends and clearly valued the friendship. Girls that I was not really persuing (often friends of my friends) wanted romance and while I complied up to a point and even had sex with them, I never treated them with the passion which I felt for the ones I could not "land." I couldn't treat them that way. I didn't feel it. But, of course, they were into the "I can change him" mode you cite. I never should have gone along in the first place, but I am as weak as the rest of us. Two of them asked me to marry them. I asked several girls who wanted to be friends and always got turned down, but I never asked anyone who would have said yes. Well, not wanting to hurt anyone's feelings, I was abysmally stupid enough to say yes both times I was asked and then had to figure out how to get out of it.
What does all of that mean? It means that, while you were absolutely correct in your analysis of girls' behavior, WE ARE AS BAD AS THEY ARE!!!
Maybe it stems back to the old Groucho Marx quote: "I would never belong to a club who would have me as a member." It also stems back to bad=sexy. For men as much as for the distaff. Doesn't being a provider mean being bad, at least in the view of society. Isn't that one key reason we are attracted to them?
What if Christine agreed to marry me? Would we have been happy? As it turns out, tomorrow she is remarrying her first husband who cheated on her and left her for a younger woman just after she had given birth to their son. When she was on the phone the other day giving me this piece of ghastly news (I thought I really loved her) she asked "Can't you be happy for me?" The only response I could make was "I can't even deal with this now." Bear in mind that for the year of our friendship prior to this conversation, she had done nothing but complain about how insensitive he was; how incapable of love he was; and so on and so on - so this really came out of the blue. I suppose it would not have been had I not been inherently (at the advanced age of 53) naive.
Reading assignment:
1/ Psychoanalytic Theorist Jacques "There is no such thing as a sexual relationship" Lacan.
2/ The collected works of science fiction writer Philip K. Dick. Especially Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep (the book Blade Runner was based on) and U.B.I.K. which was the basis (although nobody admitted it) for the Spanish Film Open Your Eyes and the American remake Vanilla Sky.
I once, many years ago, had a "real relationship" with one of the more infamous lady's in my area. You want to know how this all cam about....
Basically it was this. All of her clients were trying their best to be "her man" in real life. Guys would offer to leave their wives, offer to buy her homes, promise to give her anything she wanted if she would just be theirs. She said the reason why she wanted me was because I made no such promises or advances. Go figure. I'm not saying I was not nice or romantic. I treated her well and to this day I consider her one of my best friends. Why we are not together is another story for another day.
The thing I wanted to point out is that she pursued me because of what I would not promise to do. The saying you can't buy love may apply. It also may be the reason why some lady's are turned off by the guy with the gifts and flowers.
I'm of the belief that actions speak louder than words. Many times I've found that a lady will appreciate the smaller things you do for them than the things you can buy for them. I'm no philosopher. Hell I can't even spell it. LOL So I don't have all the answers. I guess that may be the real answer, that there is none.
I too have had the situation where the lady I could see myself spending my life with just wanted to be friends. (Guys, isn't that like the kiss of death. LOL) Translation, "I love your company but I don't want to have a relationship with you". Yet you always here ladies say, "I want a mate who I can be friends with as well as lovers". Or the other funny one is, "I want to be friends before we are lovers". Yeah right. LOL
Guys, you can not know or appreciate another person before you know yourself so I suggest you spend time identifying what you truly want before settling on what is available.
Just my two cents. I'm out!
"Now hit my music!"
-- Modified on 4/27/2002 9:33:29 AM
-- Modified on 4/27/2002 9:19:50 PM
Gertrude Stein: "There is no answer. And that is the answer." Ain't it the truth.
OK. Nobody reads these any more. "It's that dufus Socrates talking about ethics again..." Christine appears to be happilly married - only concerned that I stall depsositing the postdated checks she gave me in such a way that it does not screw up her ability to manage her accounts.
No songle message that does not deal with money. Ever. I come to a forum where money is KING to look for understanding. Just flyppin' typical.
The ethical decision is still the same. All we can do is do what we think is right at the time.
Anybody got any ideas beyond "you are compulsively neaive and nothing can save you." Well, I knew THAT.
I am too much of a cretin to be dealt with.
Sorry, BYE.
I have often wondered this myself Heather. I giggle and get mushy whenever a gentleman brings me or sends me something "extra". I am a big romantic and I love a guy who is equally romantic and thoughtful. I don't expect gifts but as you said it really does make a difference in that I feel really desired and who dosen't want to be desired.
One of the perks of being a fantasy gurl. Enjoy 'em, sweet thing.
HB, just upgrade the men you see off duty, screen them as well as your pro guys. Weed out the dead wood, so to speak.
You say you like older guys, so don't stay 8 years with 20 year olds, stay with a sure bet.Sorry I am 27 so I don't make the cut off, :"(
UK
-- Modified on 4/27/2002 12:40:12 PM
Heather,
I still give my wife flowers and other gifts. I still buy most of her clothes. I love to give her things.
The same goes for the other women in my life. When I care about someone, when that person makes me feel sooo good, I want to repay and thank them. That is when the presents and tips come in.
In this world you find many people who just take. When you are so close to those that give, how can you not want to give back?
Mr. Barron...
I could restate your question from a gentleman's point of view.
By way of personal esperiential observations and some really small time study in human psycology and sexuality that perhaps the most basic need of a woman is to feel secure and the most basic need for a man is sex.
I have never (until most recently, when I met the most wonderful, generous and senusal woman in the whole world)observed a woman who would take care of "her man's" sexual needs until such time as she had a secure grasp upon his wallet, at which time she began to withhold her end of the agreement (sex for security).
Flowers, candy, romatic dinners, etc. are a promise of security in the future. Once a woman start withholding sex, the man begins to lose incentive to promise security.
I think that men give providers gifts because they are subconsciously going through the cultural ritual of promising security for sex....
Not all men are "nice", nor are all "nice" men sesitive to a woman's need for security. However, anyone who is treated rudely or outside the terms of an agreement usually eventually leave, don't buy the service, or do not come back.
or I'm full of poop, which is always possible since my eyes are brown.
First off, to myself. Every Friday.
To girlfriends. Usually will start around the 2nd or 3rd date, and then from time to time, depending on my mood, her mood, and the occasion.
To my neighbors, friends, etc. Again, depending on my mood, my florist's mood, and any special stuff that may be going on for them. Got a neighbor upstairs flowers and a balloon a couple of weeks ago because I knew she was sick. Got the girls across the hallway flowers last week right after they finished midterms. Sent a friend flowers this weekend to celebrate her finishing her first triathlon.
I've only had one provider who I knew well enough and cared about enough to bring flowers to. I stopped doing it when I discovered how much she liked dark chocolates. I think I scoured the world to find new and interesting varieties to bring her...
MisterG
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