Basic statement and question is:

Do you believe that most, if not all ( aside from pimps haha) pay for sex in one form or another? Whether it's straightforward through paying a pro, or paying for alimony( and that's sad because you're paying an ex wife and not even wanting to or getting to have sex with her), taking out a woman on a date and spending money hoping to get laid?

OR, do you feel that this question is a jaded, bitter one that's reducing women to commodities and gold-diggers even in a day and age and 40% of women outearn their husbands? If this is the case then it seems as though maybe now women will pay for sex LOL. The wealthier the woman the more she would have to pay for alimony or support a husband in some ways. And a pimp, well, that's a whole different story. Although you don' have to be a professional pimp to sponge off a woman.

Conversely, as an independent woman who pays her own mortgage and bills,  I go back and forth between the desire to have a man take care of all my financial needs, and yet...those sugar daddy types never worked out for me. I guess it's just natural to be a modern woman and yet still struggle mightily with wanting a man to take care of me, and wanting to take care of myself. I can find no middle ground it seems.

There is a reason it is called "the worlds oldest profession", but two people can come together, and enjoy the pleasures of each others bodies without the exchange of value.  It is a beautiful thing!

One of the problem of today is that women have achieved earning power and equality,but many men haven't figured it out yet.  They re still looking for Donna Reed.  The women of today want the independence, but were raised to be June Cleaver.  

I, for on, prefer womn who are independent, can stand on there own two feet, and make there own way.  Deliver me from the simpering, whinny women whose mantra is "I can't do it.". I'm not looking for a Dom, but rather an equal partner.  Happily, I have found that among providers a higher percentage of independent women.

I am writing a book, actually, online right at the moment on an online publishing site ( that is looked at by major publishing houses constantly). For NanoWriMo, National Novel Writing Month,  held every year i November that was how I got the idea to write an in-depth study about the sociological, psychological, and economical aspects of escorting. It's not some tawdry tell-all book, but it's an in-depth look into the world of escorts and call girls. Most of the books written on the subject are often tell-all books, autobiographies, or are about streetwalkers and brothel girls. I decided to write one that incorporated many aspects that have not necessarily been explored yet, especially by a current working girl.

If my questions bother you, then you are clearly free to skip over them or as you have done here, not answer it.  I respect that.

I struggle back and forth as many modern women do with wanting to be taken care of because I own my own house and pay for all my bills myself. But sometimes I DO get tired of it and I always have a sugar daddy or rich husband fantasy not too far away in the back of my head. I go to a gym where there's a lot of rich people and I often envy the women who never have to lift a finger to do much and not work at all or every worry about their finances: think pampered Orange County Housewife types. And yet, as much as I envy them, I'm proud to have my own economic power and not rely on a man.

Still though, and I'm pretty sure this is frequent, as a modern woman, I struggle with it everyday. And strangely some men are still intimidated by a woman who has her own home. They're like " You bought this yourself?"  Um yes, why is that surprising?


Then surprisingly, once, a client laughed at me when I said I enjoyed being a financially independent woman. He said " You're relying on MEN just like the same way a housewife relies on her husband." I didn't agree with that, but it got me thinking a little.

Hey Ava,

Is your desire to have BOTH a man and your independence.

I don't know your life hisotry, but it sounds to me that you really haven't had a serious relationship in a LONG time and because of this, you lack clear direction on what you want to do with your life.

I don't think that a TER forum will get you the answers that you need.

What you do need to do is take a serious evaluation of yourself and life and how you want to proceed from this point on.

Will this require seeking a professional counselor to help you with that? Probably so.

Will this require you to find another avenue of obtaining revenue to keep up with your lifestyle? Probably so.

Having a serious relationship AND be independent does NOT work! Never has and never will. It doesn't matter what the gender is. In a serious relationship, it's BOTH partners finding a common gound, doing give and take. It's not all one-sided.

Good luck on your future.

Serpius

I think this is a great thread.  Personally, I think most, if not all, men pay for sex in one form or another - it's not always in $$.

One thing I think about often is this..  If I see a provider and give her, say $200 and we have sex, society thinks this is terrible - paying for sex.  But if I take her on a few dates and spend more money (and much more time) on her, and we have sex, this is more acceptable.  Either way, it's paying for sex, isn't it?

Another thing is this.  Women have made a lot of progress in the last 40 years or so, but I wonder if women are really any happier than they were in the 50s or 60s.  Seems like society (both men and women) are more unhappier now.

That is excactly what I thought as I read this post.  You are just doing on the up front method as apposed to being a relashonship for the benifits.  The question is can you really be independent and survive without doing this?  Do you want  or have a full time SO?  I am writing this without looking at your profile so I do not know where you are in life. I think we all have similar thoughts like winning the lottery and not having to deal with the day to day stuff. You must be comfortable doing this if you are supporting what you have, but is it a forever thing and would you recommend this to others?

I have, of course been through an early marriage in which I paid for all and then some even after it was over.  I have also enjoyed the company of many providers where the answer is a straight forward "yes".
I have also had many independent successful friends with benefits where the only "pay" was my finding pleasure in knowing what the friend needed to be satisfied and to provide it in return for which I was also satisfied.  
My wife is very successful financially and has no more need of my support than I have need of hers.  This has been a long lasting marriage.  
Finally, my current friend with benefits has been a deep and wonderful relationship for me for years and she has always held positions of authority and has been financially quite successful.  Again the "pay" is my finding pleasure in satisfying her her finding pleasure in satisfying me.  .

I've been in love a few times.  It trumps all considerations about which partner is supporting the other financially, so it never comes down to a question of whether one is simply paying for sex.  Thus, I believe you're looking at the entire question of relationships too narrowly and probably should consider that.

love...she is talking about having a sugar daddy vs. seeing a lot of random guys but still wants to be independent. Not all of us are cut out for that type of arrangement, but many women make their way like that. It's nice at times to know you have one guy to depend on giving you a few grand every month, so you can just take it easy and not have to fk 5 guys a week, every week lol.

-- Modified on 6/2/2012 11:19:13 AM

Some time the cost is time and energy. Some time it is emotional stress. Sometimes the cost is in the risk involved in having sex. It could be in the effort put in to be attractive. It is often n the effort to connect to the person you wish to connect to. It could be in the caring about the person. It could be in the cost of the date, work to support the house hold, or in the envelope stuffed with green on the dresser. It cold be in the raising of kids, and/or child support. It could be in the STD treatments. It can even cost self respect or the lowering of ones standards. It could be in the effort to please ones partner. It can even be in the marketing of oneself.

There is always a cost. Sex is never free. Some of that cost is often in the form of money for us men. But everyone, man and woman pays for sex. It may not cost money and the costs can be low, but sex is never ever free.

I have spent over a million dollars in my life on my wife.  Not on shoes, she is not Imelda Marcos, but on houses, cars, medical care, vacations, living expenses, clothes, etc.

I came from an impoverised and broken family.  I started working when I was 12 years old, and was paying for everything I needed except for room and board and medical expenses by the time I was 14.  I put myself through college on a shoestring and loans.

During those years, when I was the most physically attractive I would ever be (13-25), I had a total of 2 steady girlfriends for a total of 14 months.  By the time I got out of high school, I had had multiple dates with just 5 girls, and had only been laid by two.

During college only had multiple dates with 3 women.  I only got laid by one of them who was one of my total of two steady girlfriends from my school years.

The common denominator was I had no money to spend on entertainment.  As Cyndi Lauper used to sing, "girls just want to have fun", and it takes money to do things they seemed to consider fun.

Once I starting working and had disposable cash, I started being attractive to women and my ability to secure companionship magically changed.

My wife of 33 years would never, never, never have been interested in me if I did not seem to be a successful, financially promising man that could provide a home and a family.  Not that she is materialistic and cynical.  She is absolutely not. She is frugal and a spendthrift.  But her price for access to sex and companionship was/is that I provide.  She would never consider that to be prostitution, because she, like most women do not frame the core nature of the transaction that way.  There are other aspects to the relationship that they prioritize and consider to be the primary reason they bond with their men.  

But bottom line, take away the booty, and there is no booty.  Its been this way since our ancestors roamed the wilderness for food.  If they didn't bring it back from the point of capture and share it with women, there would be no humans.  From a utilitarian point of view, it would be much easier to simply sit down and have a barbeque in the forest with the meat you captured.  But what drove males to drag those 400 lb antelopes back to the settlement was sex.  Bring back some meat, and you will get some meat so to speak.

And there is nothing wrong with that, it is the nature of our existence and how we evolved, and if it wasn't, as I said we wouldn't exist.

As an older gentleman, I just feel that it is a tradition of men taking care of the feminine fairer sex and I have always been good with that.  Some women struggle mightily to destroy that concept.  I certainly want a independent woman, but at the same time, I want her to know how to be feminine.  Falling in love with the right girl can really reinforce the concept.  Finding the "right" girl is the hard part, but if it happens, can be so fine.  Since I've matured, when I "date" a girl it is to enjoy her company, and the primary goal is not sex.  When I was real young, yeah, it was a little different, but I quickly learned that some girls can be very special, if they are not so totally self centered.

Trying to ignore this fact is what causes problems.

A couple of posters I know and admire said that sex can occur between equals, and I acknowledge that this can and will occur on occasion, but that this is the exception, not the rule.

Why men should be in the position of having to pay for sex when it is known that both men and women benefit from sex (in somewhat different ways, albeit), is a bit of a mystery but I think it has to do with the fact that women provide the power that charge men up, and this is what creates the imbalance, as it were.

Whether the payment is by money, barter, labor or whatever, the bill must be paid eventually, or a grave karmic debt willl ensue.

I've learned this from my 40+ year tussle with sex, and I've become a happier man now that I know this.

Having a relationship with a man has nothing to do with someone's 'clear direction in life.' What you're saying by that statement is that there's something wrong with being single, which is pretty typical of what some people  ( or many people think) believe when a person chooses to be single, and most importantly, does not need a relationship in their life to feel complete. I am complete as a person myself, and that's hard for a man like yourself to understand. Beneath all your 'advice' is that statement here: You don't know my life's history, especially that of being an only child and enjoying living life solo. My conflict is the conflict a modern woman has between the Old World notion of a man taking care of things, and the new world notion of a modern feminist. Your notions and 'ideas' are archaic, outdated, and quite frankly, misogynistic.

Who, in the first place, said that I came here on TER to find an 'answer' to my own life's questions? The questions asked were simple ones, and if you read some of my responses, the questions for asked for the specifics of a book.

As for therapy, that's what people usually say when they suspect someone is so different from themselves or from society's norms that 'therapy' must be needed or required because something MUST be abnormal with someone who likes being alone and doesn't require a mate to be complete. I'm comfortable with who I am, for the most part, and that's why I'm comfortable being single. You strike me as someone who can't be alone because you aren't comfortable with yourself being alone, whereas I'm happy to say I'm my own best friend. If you can't be your own best friend, then neither can you be someone else's best friend, let alone a friend to your mate or SO.



Where does my life want to go? That's an interesting question you could have answered yourself without asking ME. I write, I'm a personal trainer, I'm a provider. These are the things I have chosen for myself and no one else has the right, or the permission, to decide what's best for me when it's only within myself that I know where I'm at in life, and happy with.  Sounds like you're the one who needs tlook inwards as to why you have such a condescending attitude towards independence when the question itself was meant for men like you:  do men pay for sex in one way or another or not?

And perhaps you should read my answer.

That's exactly why I asked the question. So I could get OPINIONS, not definite answers.  Strange because on another board, every single man that was asked this question said yes.

And yes, I've been in love actually many times. But I've also always supported myself, so in my case, I suppose the man didn't pay for sex.

Thank you, London. I'm not surprised by some of the answers though, especially the one where the man said it was 'because I haven't been in a relationship for so long' I needed to redirect my life. My question had nothing to do with a woman's independence.

That sounds like the most honest answer on here.  And that takes courage to look at things from an honest perspective instead of trying to accuse someone of being jaded because they want an opinion or answer and seek the one which is a well-thought out one placed in perspective.

What's very interesting is some years ago I asked this very same question on the board ( but this was before I considered writing a book)  and 99% of the men said YES you pay for sex in one form or another. Interesting how times have changed.

Yes actually I can survive without doing this.  Making sixty dollars an hour as a personal trainer is a hefty amount of money. And no, I don't want an SO. I'm one of the rare individuals who doesn't need another person to define or complete myself.  Would I recommend it to others? Only if I felt she had the emotional and psychological strength to do so.


The question really was this: Do men pay for sex in one form or another? And the odd thing is, I asked and said the exact same question a few years ago and 99% of the men said yes.

So you DO agree then that men pay for sex in one form or another?

No, I don't see marriage or a LTR as paying for sex.  Sex comes along with it, of course.  But then there are those relationships that become sexless as people change.  In many cases that ruins the relationship, but not always.  In some cases, sex goes away because of phyiscal changes.  In others, sex goes away as a result of anger or lack of trust about other areas entirely.  But if sex goes away for physical reasons and the partners remain in love, clearly no one is paying for sex.

First, a great thread

Second, I basically agree with scoed and inick's second posy, with a wave to Mr. Fisher.

Third, people are different.  Relationships are different.  One size does not fit all.  Therefore the assumption is bitter and jaded. It says"always"

Fourth, but reality in the form of societal patterns suggest that the assumption is usually correct.  If the question was "do many marriages impliedly involve an exchange of what a woman traditionally contributes (sex, housekeeping and/or child g) for what a man usually contributes, the answer is sure.

Fifth, the responses of the posters on this thread, including me, are really a product of his or her own history with what, at least initially, thet believed were relationships primarily based on an emotional connection.

I'm not into women who are needy or clingy . If she doesn't have a decent job, she's not for me   .  

If we go out to dinner and she offers to pay, I won't let my ego put her down  .  

Some guys will always insist on paying . They strive for more power , ending up with  less pussy .

I can go either way , no problem paying for dinner or not,  as long as I enjoy her company  .

Are guys that equate taking ladies to dinner as an expense, deeply in love with their money , or themselves ?

Gold digging women are a very  small minority  .

Independent women are  the only type  I pursue .



 

Allright, let me ask this. Tradtionally, if a man stopped bringing home the bacon and a woman stopped having sex with him, what kind of relationship would they have, even with love? Take away the elements of sex and money, and you can say there's love, but I doubt whether that relationship would be very good.

I think there is a huge range of differing needs in relationships, as there are different forms of love and need.  I think the wide range of opinions on this thread speaks directly to this point.  I think you've posed an interesting question but perhaps are trying to categorize too rigidly or thinking in a "one size fits all" way.  Human nature is inscrutable.  Put another way, there probably is no "wrong" answer here.

-- Modified on 6/2/2012 2:48:55 PM

Ava,

In your response to this, you spent a lot of time defending yourself.

You have incorrectly assumed my questions in my post.

You started out with a question of: Do men pay for sex?

Then you ended your posted with a lifestyle question of: Do I want a man or do I want to remain independent?

It seemed that your post was really geared towards question #2, not question #1.

I am certain that you'll disagree with me, but it's on your own conscience.

F.Y.I., I have raised 2 lovedly daughters, both have expressed their strong independence by going their own way instead of living with their parents until they are way past 25. One daughter is graduating from a major college (a Big Ten university) majoring in Finance and already is an assistant manager of a major commercial vehicle leasing company. My other daughter is an mental health care provider who is working as an independent provider for people who are on Medicare and/or Medicaid. So, how's that for providing direction for people who are close to me?

You don't know a fookin' thing about me and you'll never will.

Serpius

Ava,

You have no clue about love. You THINK you do, but you really don't.

I know of 2 families that have a Down's Syndrome child. Those Down's Syndrome children always shows unconditional love to EVERYONE around them including me when I visit either family at least once a week. Both girls love to see me and have a conversation with them. (both kids are considered low level Down's Syndrome with some degree of independence) Neither one of them gives a flying fook about sex or money. It's ALWAYS a refreshing time to be with them because there is no fear of rejection, only love.

Oh, by the way, both families are considered hard working upper middle class people. Money isn't an issue, neither is sex.  

Serpius

You're absolutely right ( no pun intended LOL) about there not being any right or wrong answer.  As you said, and as others have said, it varies. What I do find interesting though is as I said, I have posted this question before and most if not all of the men said yes, men do pay for sex in one form or another. Maybe this time, the answers were far more thought out than previously. Now it's going to be harder to formulate a theory on the chapter I'm working on regarding sex as a commodity and commercialization of a woman's sexuality. But this makes it far  more interesting, the variety of answers.

A person can be happy single and independent. A person can be single and happy. No one disputed that. Thing is you can't be in a committed SO relationship and be independent and happy. a person can be independent, happy or in a committed relationship, a person can chose any two of them. If they try for all three they will get none of them. I have never seen it work out different. When people are in a committed relationship you are a team and need to act as one and put the other first and they need to put you first to make it work. That involves both parties giving up their independence. People think that is an outdated concept and that is why there is so many marriage that are unhappy or ending in divorce.

I am glad you are happy single and Independent as long as your happy with that choice. There is nothing at all wrong with that choice. No life style is right for every person. You are right I have no right to decide what is best for you, only you as you said have that right. I meant no disrespect. It just sounded like you longed for a man, yet wanted to be independent. That just don't work.

There are more costs in life than money. You seen focused to much on one very small thing. Yes it is a necessary thing to make enough to survive, but it don't bring happiness. Do are you will, just don't go talking about finding a man and expect people not to comment on it. That just will not happen.

One last thing, nothing I have said, was meant to insult you or you choices in any way. I respect what you do. I also respect your right and duty to run your life your way. Most everyone condemns my lifestyle, I in no way intended in any of my posts intended to condemn your choices. If any of my posts ever can across that way, I am sorry. I am nothing but a fat ugly, man with an opinion, nothing more. Treat my words like they are worth what you have paid for them, NOTHING.

I disagree..my so and I both work and share expenses and a good number of families are set up this way..I do not understand why a woman should expect a guy to pay for all her needs and those men who do so are retards in my book.

is pretty much a binary situation but real life is somewhere in-between. Since you consider yourself a modes women, modern women are educated, confident, articulate, etc. Modern men are the same and are not intimidated by modern women and are willing to share 50/50 and they more often have a happy life.

I find educated, confident women attractive and was never attracted to clingy one’s, they drive me crazy. I have broken with more girls during my young adult dating days.

When anyone tells you what you "think you know" then spouts off a shopping list of things they "think" are accomplishments, they are full of shit themselves lol. No person can truly know the mind, heart, and soul of another human being 100 percent, and certainly not from random postings on a fk board lol.

I also like thewinger's honest answer to your question.

Like some of the others, I misinterpreted the question initially, thinking it was about the nature of some type of commitment/relationship between men and women. London Rayne's reply set me right, pointing out is was more of just an economic question. In most cases, I would say the answer is yes. Within that vein, however, when I was seeing a woman who was much more successful than me (I am financially successful enough), I didn't have to pay actual money for sex (nor did she have to pay me for the sex I provided her), but we certainly provided for each other in other ways. And there have been a couple times where a provider I was seeing stopped accepting money from me. When those relationships ended, we stopped seeing each other, and did not go back to being provider-client.

I think your question is a good one, because it stimulates us to look at what has gone on in our own lives/relationships. It also prompts one to ask other related questions. My mistaken assumption about the nature of your question lead me to the bigger-question/tangent: Do you pay for having a relationship? Any kind of relationship, whether sex is involved or not? This would open up the question to involve any give-or-take that incurs in relationships, with men or women, and would take it out of the hot-button issue of sex, which often prejudices thoughts and feelings of how we view our self relative to others.  To this tangential question I would also say "yes". In the analogy from thewinger, it would be easier to just have the barbeque where the antelope was killed. And I could enjoy that. But if I thought the experience would be enhanced, whether by sex, conversation, telling jokes, etc, then I'd better drag that antelope back, or send out an invitation with clear directions on where I am hold the BBQ, to men and women alike. As scientists have pointed out, and thewinger paraphrased, we are driven by the subconscious need to advance/propagate our genetic material. As much as we may like to be independent, in some way our DNA wants to get it on with someone else's, and we'd better supply antelope, dollars, or some jokes to make that happen.

My thoughts exactly

That brings to mind a scene from The Devil's Advocate in which Al Pacino says " love is overrated" That of course coming from the devil's own lips

It was definitely an ecomonic-type of question.  I think my point was to the degree that nothing in life is truly 'free' and trying to apply that to the pay for play question. In any case there are certainly a good number of different responses and opinions

And one of my biggest problems has been trying to make guys understand that I'm not clingy LOL because I have always craved solitude for days on end.  Sometimes society thinks of women as being the solely clingy ones but I've run into a lot of needy guys too, who always have to call or see what's going on, and that is not me at all.  But trying to explain that to them you'd think I'd suddenly become a winged demon, because they can't understand 'why' I want to have so much downtime to myself. I really think being an only child has a lot to do with it. If you can't be your own best friend, or be comfortable alone, I don't know what else to say.  Part of the reason why past relationships broke up with me was because the guy didn't understand how much I value my private space and my 'solitude'.

Just different types of basic personalities.  I think clingy describes someone who is insecure in themselves and in their relationships.  There are those who are very independent such as my self that really don't enjoy other persons doting on them, my SO's have such any easy time, I ask so little of them, just their company.  Then you have the dependent's who need someone to look after them, or have booze or some other habit control their life.  Then you have the extreme introvert to the extreme extrovert who has to constantly be surrounded by people.  Most people are somewhere in between.

Yes, I do agree that men are very physical beings that don't always see the true beauty in a woman.  I do not feel that I pay for sex.  I pay for companionship, or the feeling of that in any instance.  This is why I feel I am disappointed with my experiences most of the time.  It all depends on the man.  Not all men are assholes.  I do love my wife, but feel my marriage is in serious jeopardy.  I work my ass off and have even helped put my wife through school.  All I get is bitchbitchbitch.  Her life is so hard that she has to care for our child who is school age.  She has everything she needs yet my work keeps me busy.  I offer to cut back on work to spend more time with her and she says no because she would have to scale back on the fun things.  So tell me.....who is getting pimped.  So, rather than have an affair, as I have had opportunity, I hire an escort.  Believe it or not, some men who have wives with unjustified sharp tongues really lose sexual interest when they are being made to feel as if their hard work is not rewarded or even appreciated.  I am by no means rich, but I do well.  So I find myself at this juncture.  Divorce and lose half, or get an escort.  I enjoy providing for my family.  A healthy relationship requires a joint effort. Not one way or another.  I feel raising a child well, and my wife is an excellent mother, is part of my wife's effort. However, no man wants to be in a sexless and emotionally void marriage.  I sometimes wish I had married an escort.....ahh the best of both worlds. That is of course if the escort could split her time and allow a joint financial responsibility so as to allow the man to benefit from her most excellent skills.  It is only natural that each want the other to care for them. Just as many men seeing an escort seeks this out to replace what they are missing in their real life.  Now don't get me wrong, there are many who just want to satisfy that physical urge.  The bottom line is that any relationship that is expected to last must have emotional investment on both sides.  Sounds corny, but very true.  All men want is to be nurtured while feeling that they are appreciated.  It's not bad to have a man take care of you, just as long as you are willing to reciprocate on whatever terms your relationship dictates to keep each other happy. I hope this helps shed some insight on one mans opinion.

My basic answer to your basic question is, basically, yes.  There may be differing forms of payment, the price may differ, and the price-to-quality relationship may vary, but women regard compensation for their company as an entitlement.  All women at least intuitively understand the economics of the male-female relationship —of the hugely asymmetrical relationship between sexual supply and demand— and some become skilled traders in the marketplace.  "The hobby" would not exist —this site would not exist— if these conditions did not exist.

There will be those who quarrel, who offer contrary opinions, and for whom ideology trumps reality —and there may be exceptions to the rule, but they are exceptions.   The implicit understanding among the overwhelming majority of women [high 90% range] is that sexual access is a commodity and something the man must compete for and pay for, over and above any sexual pleasure the woman may receive.  The notion of an in-kind transaction doesn't apply here.