I was just about to start this hobby, but I was warned by some fellow hobbyists that it will ruin my views on sex and relationships. They told me it would be hard to go back and actually hunt and go through the regular dating in the civie world. And that it is also extremely addicting.

I'm just looking for some No Strings Attached fun, but if what I am hearing is true... it makes me give this hobby a second thought.

What do you guys think? Did this happen to any of you? and did it cause any major problems in your lives?

You may want to hear my story.  Short answer is that yes, it will change your views on sex and relationships, but I wouldn't say ruin them.  If you are married it may end your marriage, as it did for me when I realized what is out there beyond what I had experienced in my marriage.  And not just the sex.  I do not hobby any more for many reasons, including an incredibly active civie sex life that I never knew could exist before I started hobbying.  
The major factor is what you are actually looking for.  Look closely at yourself.  Are you truly looking for a no-strings attached fun?  If so, the hobby is probably right for you if you play smart and safe.  If you are looking for something more (whether or not you realize it), then the hobby may or may not be right for you.  I sense that you could learn a lot from my story.   If you care to hear more, provide your email address  and I will communicate further.  It may be very, very helpful and eye-opening for you.

any other way?

No, it has not caused me any "major problems" in my life. I just get more pussy now than I ever thought of and it cost me less that civie cling-on relationships and wifes any day.

Sorry, got to run. Got a date with a BBBJTCDTCIMNQNS.

Word to wise, if you are asking this here, perhaps stamp collecting is a better forum for your pastime.

Start out by being honest with yourself:
--What do you want out of this?  Quick NSA or some touch of chemistry?  Does a personality matter to you or only a hot body?  One’s not better than the other but they are sure different.
--What do you want in the “civie world”?  The revolving GF of the week or are you looking for something serious & long term?  If the first, what is the different in your mind between a provider and a short term GF?  Lots of guys see providers because the short term GF hunt is going poorly at the moment.  If you are looking for a serious long term civie then I’d offer this isn’t the right time for an entry here.  Focus on the one that’s more important to you.

That said I’ve never had one interfere with the other.  I do treat any provider as I would my GF for the time I am with her and in return I almost always walk away very happy about our session.  Sometimes with a new friend, sometimes not, but never to the point it affected the rest of my life (unless I wanted to bring her across that line and then the affects were positive).  You can also read posts here and find guys who have different reactions.  Those who never wanted a GF performance and can walk away completely emotionally free.  Others who get overly attached and devolve into stalking a provider.  Far more stay in the NSA bucket or the temp GF bucket, but yes, some get overly sucked into this.  The strange thing is they could have all seen the same provider.  So much of how the guy reacts is in his own head, not in her body.

There’re some tremendous women in this business.  Beautiful, intelligent, sweet.  If you are looking for the wrong things and you have an addictive personality you CAN become addicted to some of them.

I think it makes civie dating both easier and more cumbersome at the same time.

Easier because I have seen some of the most beautiful women on the planet.  I am not afraid to walk up to any civie and introduce myself and strike up conversation.  The women sense the  confidence and it will really work for you.

More cumbersome because there are protocol and emotional strings attached that you tend to forget about when you are hobbying.  I will say that you might tend to get frustrated with civie dating because you are investing much more time, money and effort for far less return, but the upside is a possible relationship.  You need to keep each type of relationship in the right context and you will function better in both worlds.

The biggest hangup guys seem to face in the civvie world is frankly "putting pussy on a pedestal".  It is this confusion between what we want and what we have to do to get it that causes so much tension in those moments of first meeting.

Let me explain, when your goal is sex it shows in small ways in everything you do.  You ask what a civvie woman does for a living but you really just want her naked and gasping for breath on your silk sheets.  This dual purpose shows through and usually negatively affects the outcome of the meeting.  If you can get sex anytime you want with p4p then you have the advantage of actually asking honest questions of civvie women because you genuinely want to hear the answers rather than simply as an avenue of approach to her crotch.

This is also why you will have some of the most interesting conversations with p4p providers as you both lay naked and exhausted after round 1 and resting up for round 2.  There is no pretense, you are not trying to bed her through idle chit chat, so you are honestly just talking and listening, something few folks do.

The civvie may be a woman you just met at a bar or it may be your wife of 10 years.  Men will do, say and put up with a tremendous amount of things in order to sate their desire for sex.  It is addicting to be able to be honest about wanting sex and then just getting it, even if you are paying.  The question is do you use this freedom to enjoy more honest and low stress relationship development in the civvie world or do you try to "put the moves on civvie women" since you always have the p4p sure thing available?  That is up to you and men split pretty evenly in their choice I think.

I don't think p4p necessarily builds confidence but rather lessens the perceived penalty for failure.  If p4p is not an option then you know that your chances of having sex tonight depend solely on how well you handle the getting to know you banter which ups the stress level and there lies the catch-22.  You can be much more relaxed about meeting civvie women, asking them pointed questions and listening to their answers if you know that either way the meeting goes your sexual needs can be met tonight from her or in a p4p deal.  This relaxed mood I think lends itself to honest conversation that women notice and are attracted to more than actual confidence.

/ramble off

NSA sex with civvies can be a short recipe to STDs and lots of other drama. Most women (especially civilians) cannot reconcile their emotional response to sex and most men will never get that. The hobby is not about finding anything; it's about paying for and getting what you want most of the time. It's the ultimate NSA w/o drama for the most part. What happens however, hobbyists want to insert themselves into the lives of provider thinking they can fix what's broken or worse make shit go away altogether. For providers who enter into this with their eyes open, it's a line of horny fuckers who want to blow one or two and are willing to pay for it. They can make money, have fun, get regular sex, nice gifts, travel and all that, but when they get involved, it usually goes bad, much like their counterparts in the civilian world. Can it be more, sure. There's always a gray area when it comes to mating even with the pay variable. You can really meet great women here. But, that's where many of the players lose perspective and begin to equate one world with the next. This is a business for the ladies first and foremost.  When you keep that in mind, you'll have fun too and less likely to engage in risky sex.

A very interesting viewpoint on the MF angle. It really almost always comes down to men approach women for sex...how they go about it, is what makes the approach different.

I have simplified this for years and this is what I do in any given situation, anywhere.
Guy approaches...does not matter what method he uses, I am 99% sure it is to see if he can eventually have sex with me (no not Cindy Crawford) but you don't have to be...and that's another thread, but I digress.

Now the kicker here is do I want sex...if the answer is no, no matter how good looking or charming or whatever, I am so straight forward it actually knocks most men back a couple of steps.

I ask... "In what capacity are you wanting to get to know me?"

Almost always they will never say the truth..."I want to get you into bed to satisfy my urges"...so whatever is said is basically smoke and mirrors.

Then I ill very gently say, "Look I appreciate your approach and it is somewhat flattering but I have no intention of having sex with you, so in order to save you time and effort, you may as well know this upfront so you can move on to other women to get what you need. If you genuinely want a conversation and nothing more, I would love to sit and chat."

Now this is met with a variety of responses.
1. Deer in the headlights and open mouth, and then call me a bitch (really gentlemen, is that the best you can utter when being told the truth?)...some cannot handle the truth/honesty.
2. "That's not what I was after"...I call BS on this one 99% of the time...why, because once they know that, they leave and I see them move on the the next choice or they just think I am full of myself and move on...either way, I don't have to deal.
3. A real hearty "thank you for not leading me on and wasting my time" and they leave and finally...
4. That's so cool, yeah I'd love to sit and chat a while...these guys get the fact that I am not being an ass but being honest and not playing the MF game and leading them on.

If I am feeling like I ant some attention in that realm...I can choose who I am most attracted to...personality wise, so I sit and engage.

Moral of this story...I don't believe in leading anyone on or making them "work" for anything. I either want to or don't and make that perfectly clear.

Very well said. Make boundaries and stick to them.

I can certainly say that since I jumped into this arena my viws and perspective has changed.

From a personal view, when I am out at a bar or dancing or whatever. Maybe I am cynical. but, if a guy hits on me. It is usually obvious if he is interested in me or if he wants to get in my pants. before I became Jessica I was content with him just wanting to get in my pants . " he could get to know me after" I can tell you that I don't give those 2 seconds of my time now. Why give it away when you could rent it...

Personally, I love my outside relationships that have substance. I also love my secret life where there are no guessing games..... We all know waht it is about...

Hope I did not confuse you more..

Nope, it has not. Because my motivation for a civie relationship is different than for a P4P relationship. P4P is all about living out fantasies with women much younger and a bit more attractive than who I'd realistically be with. And, a civie relationship is about finding and being with someone, I enjoying being with, to be in partnership with in attaining mutually held dreams.

I wouldn't say ruin, quite the opposite so far. The guys that have replied so far have done it for a while, I am very new, so take what i say with a grain of semen.

So far it has definitely made me question long held views on sex and relationships. I am enjoying it a lot and I don't view new info as bad, depends how you use it. I believe over time, in the hobby, I will develop a better sense of what I like in a woman, better confidence and become a bit less of a mangina, cause I definitely have those tendencies having grown up with all sisters, no brothers.

Having a small but highly satisfying group of providers to call upon when I so desire has totally changed the way I look at civie women.  First of all, I'm attached and for reasons that are none of anyone's business, I'm staying that way.  

Being able to go for an incredible romp with the woman of my choice at the time of my choice totally has taken the edge off of problems at home (lack of sex, boring sex etc).

Moreover, I don't chase any civvie skirt anymore.  Its just not worth the trouble for all teh reasons others have mentioned (drama, emotional attachements, risk of indescretion, and expense).  

Yes, I said expense.  As the old joke goes, the differnece between sex you pay for and free sex?  The sex you pay for is a LOT cheaper!  

And a provider has never once sent me home unsatisfied because she had a last minute attack of conscience about my status!

MVR

...."better confidence and become a bit less of a mangina"....

It seems on this board you are either a man's man...a tad cromagnonish or a wimpy mangina type. Is there no in between?

And how about a little honesty...I have no problem if a guy came up to me and said "I find you very attractive and would like to have uncomplicated sex with you". I would answer either "yes" or "no"...simple.

If you don't ask for what you want upfront, only you, and I use that term universally, are to blame for the hours and money spent trying to manipulate a woman into sex. We know in the first ..what...3 to 5 minutes if we want anything to do with you in that way.

Personally, I don't ever give it away. Private life...well let's just say it's private and I make other arrangements.

-- Modified on 5/27/2010 10:23:04 AM

Reminds me of the scene from Tootsie where Jessica Lange is speaking with Dustin Hoffman as Dorothy and expressing her wish that a guy could just honestly approach and ask if she wants to have sex. Fast forward a few scenes later and Dustin Hoffman is at a party as Michael and approaches Jessica Lange (who of course only knows him as Dorothy). He proceeds to say that he prefers being open and honest about what he wants and then asks Jessica if she would like to go home and sleep with him. She proceeds to pour her drink on his head.

Over the years, I have gone back and forth between civie  relationships and P4P with no apparent confusion or negative feelings about either one. I do, however, only do one or the other at a given time. As for "the hunt," I have not felt the desire to go in search of a relationship since college. Seriously, I am nothing special to look at, but all of my successful relationships began with the woman making the initial approach. So, I hobby happily until an interesting woman decides to take me out of circulation for a while. Meanwhile, my current LTRs in the hobby seem to satisfy all of my needs and desires quite well. Everyone's experiences will be different, of course, but the hobby has been an almost universally positive experience for me.

Well she did not want to sleep with him. I didn't say the direct approach will get you laid, only that it saves a butt load of money on dinner, movies and other outings only to get let down. You guys commonly complain about spending too much money on civvies to get laid...go for the direct approach...you have as good odds either way.

BTW, she could have said a simple no thank you instead of pouring the drink...but I know it's a movie.

Then again, civvie women know that really all guys want from them is sex, so the dinners, etc. are in fact some sort of fee in order to get in there. Not that much different from here...only I prefer cash and not food in exchange for using me.

Being able to see hot young women who enjoy our time together has helped me place sex in its rightful place in relationships.

My hobbying experience has also helped me learn to be both more attentive and more demanding as a sex partner. That has carried over on other areas of my life, as well.

The biggest thing is that I no longer resent my SO because she has such hangups about sex, though.

While I respect your opinions I am getting a little tired of you telling us what all men are about or really want.  You seem to paint with a wide brush when speaking about men.
Doc

OK let me tell it this way...men I have met in my life's experience. That make it easier for you to deal with? And I am coming form a very simple viewpoint...not much different than I hear expressed on here on a daily basis. All this hunting for pussy etc. It is really no different out there in the non hobby world. I guess I need to sanitize things so as not to ruffle sensitive feathers....but it won't change my truth from my experiences. And I am not saying it's a bad thing...just how I have experienced things over the decades of living on the same planet and the opposite sex.

Do you also get tired of men who say women(in general) are gold diggers and are just after a man's money?

And tell me that you have just pursued women in order to get to know them as people and not wanted to have sex with them at some point. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but next to the "hunt" for sex...it comes in so low on the totem pole it's barely there.

Again so as not to offend anyone, I'm not saying anything negative about it, just commenting from my experience and observation...just as many do on this board about the complicated dance men and women do on a daily basis.

Yes I get tired of posters that generalize about all women too.  Today, however, it was this thread that caught my attention.  
Doc

There is such a thing as pissing up a rope. I'd tell you not to do it.

Cool...I get where you are coming from and you taught me a valuable lesson...preface some of my comments with "in my experience" so as not to use that broad paint brush...have a great day DOC

In relation to what Rad?

The rope comment was in relation to Venus and Mars and everything in between, my dear. Own your opinions, you won't satisfy people, so be who you are and let them wax insanely about reading things into what you say that really might not be in them at all. If they set an appointment with you, they find that they have more in common with you than not.

I simply wouldn't trust a guy in the civvie world who came flat out and asked if I would be interested in uncomplicated sex.
The answer would be "hell no" and probably slap in the face every. single. time.
It's rude and creepy--and this has nothing to do with paying for dinners first or proving anything with money. In the civvie world, unless you're asking someone you're already friends with for NSA sex (which I'd say is uncommon), you have no idea who you're approaching. She could be a girl who occasionally indulges in NSA sex or she could be a virgin saving it for someone special in which case your inquiry would be immensely offensive.
Coming straight out and asking for uncomplicated sex in the civilian sphere is unacceptable behavior. We have social norms for a reason. It's to help us weed out the scary people who can't or won't follow them. I'd take it as a sign that the person asking was unbalanced and frighteningly socially inept. Again, not someone I could trust.

Great post! Three+ excellent reasons to be hobbying. I especially like that you've been able to "learn to be both more attentive and more demanding as a sex partner" which says a lot more about you, I think, than it can say about the girls you see.

I hope my clients feel they are getting the extra benefits you've listed

Got it.

Thank you for your perspective. I guess we like different approaches.

You will definitely develop self confidence to approach women. If they turn you down, you do know where to get some and changes the game dude.

Actually, I think that most hobbyists would say that the hobby helps civilian relationships because you are no longer in a position where you have to tolerate certain behaviors just to make sure your sex life keeps going.  
I can say that in marriage, wives often try to withhold sex as a form of power and control.  Once that is not working for them you have the upper hand.  She is thinking that you have a girlfriend but she just cannot find any clues.  This is an excellent situation.  
I regret not knowing about this world when I was single.  I would have saved myself a significant amount of aggravation in certain relationships that I had.  I would have found it easier to remove myself from many situations where I was spending time and money that was essentially not proportional to the amount of sexual activity I was getting.  
This hobby puts everything in perspective.  Money and time is always a factor in sexual relationships.  The difference is that in the civilian world we are forced to pretend it is not an issue.  
We are not allowed to say that the time we are spending with an SO is taking away from possible career or business development.  Moreover, we are not allowed to say that we are spending too much money for limited or sporadic sexual activity.  
In the hobby, there is an unspoken philosophy in which both parties understand that both parties want the maximum amount of fun without economic suffering.  Time is money.  As long as both parties feel that they will enjoy themselves for that one or two hours, the money is not an issue to the hobbyist and the provider is confident that she will benefit economically.  That is why this is a fantasy because it works for both parties.

In the real world someone has to sacrifice.

I hope your clients are getting that, too.

This can be a wonderful hobby when people approach it as true intercourse on many levels, not just fucking.

Not that there's anything wrong with that!!

Absolutely there is inbetween. I have always been inbetween, but lately I'm starting to lean more toward the cromagnon side. It's less stress on me worrying less about pleasing women, and ironically being a bit less concerned about it has led to better more relaxed sex.

That's a nice attitude.

> We have social norms for a reason.
> It's to help us weed out the scary
> people who can't or won't follow them.

Wrong.  We have social norms to separate the followers (who follow social norms) from the leaders (who break social norms for themselves and set social norms to see who they can control).

That's why leaders have more money, more sex, more power, more stress, more responsibility, and more fun.  Also as leaders, we have more hate, admiration, jealousy, and awe directed at us.

sure leaders may behave differently from others, but...c'mon, would you call someone who crosses ANY line a "leader"?
I hope not.

Behavior is the key word. Most so-called leaders are overrated and complete boors. Its people who take action that make the difference. Actioneers is a better title.

Dear Billetdoux:
What would be the appropriate psychological profile that one should look forward when beginning to broach this subject? Should it be a woman who is usually emotionally detached and can compartmentalize well?