The previous post and the responses to it, are exactly why I don't even bother with the reference exercise.  The system sucks on so many levels that it's impossible to straighten out.

It's much easier to see different providers if you DON'T go through all those gyrations.  The whole business of verification and references, in my experience, is a total sham anyway.

There are thousands of providers out there and jumping through all those hoops to see a particular provider is damn near a neurotic twitch.

If you're pleasant, presentable, courteous and have a believable demeanor of some sort, you shouldn't have any trouble, let alone the trouble that's been posted many times on these boards.

Naturally, others may have differing opinions.  This is my story and I'm stickin' to it.

LE can be pretty charming and "presentable" too.  It really does tear at my heart knowing some ladies care so little for their lives that they take no measures to ensure their safety... But you are right, there are many who will see you without references or verification. It is certainly their right to gamble as they see fit.

Just a thought though, if a lady does not take precautions to help stay alive and safe in this business... Where else might she be reckless, and how might that come back to bite you in the ass?

Granted, sometimes verification can be a bit of a pain.

Usually though -- and I'm not kidding -- it's really easy. I just copy both providers on an email introducing them to each other and, shazam -- verification. I have no clue what they then send back and forth to each other, but it works.

Here is the thing.

The provider's safety depends on me. And MY safety depends on her.

You can't have a weak link in that chain without compromising the safety of both.

Keeping the chain strong is easy enough.

Yes, I have had some verification problems where a provider would drag her feet or something. But that has been by far the exception rather than the rule. It is really a small price to pay for an environment where you can both feel comfortable and safe.

I don't get the incessant and manic obsession with verification on these boards.  At least once a day there is a post somewhere about what a pain it is, how its an invasion, or how someone won't give his real name to be verified.  I've been verified at least 6 times in the past year and never was it more than a brief phone conversation or e-mail to relay information and then poof...I'm verified.  Even easier with a service, get registered, and one bit of info gets you verified...no problems.

So, I agree with John...spend a few seconds providing quality verification info, make the lady feel safe, and ensure your own safety and have a good/relaxed/comfortable time.

Well, you and John are certainly welcome to your opinions.  I don't believe a word of it but if it makes you feel okay having that info out there, it's up to you.

The provider's safety and my safety are not intertwined.  I'll look out for myself, thank you very much.

But I reiterate, it's just not necessary to give out all that private info.  Most providers don't require it.  It's PR, plain and simple.

You are more than entitled to your opinion and way of hobbying.

It may not be necessary to you to give out your full name and that's OK.

I will need that info OR I turn on the cameras....yes people, for those men who only give handles, fake names and are using online verification forms..I will have audio and visual recognition of the meeting.

Why? Well I can hardly give the police a fake name or a P411 id can I, but if an assault occurs I can give an image for them to televise if necessary. Also, I can send the file to bad client sites that accept those files...oh and they exist.

So you go ahead and give out nothing...there are more of us that are doing this than you think and you'll never know. Misbehave and you will be found.

Well, I think you're in denial to believe that your safety is somehow removed from her safety. As SolaLove pointed out, if a provider going to gamble and not take steps for her own personal safety, in what other areas may she be gambling or leaving to chance other issues that can impact on you, like relationships with jealous SO's, personal health, drug use, which can increase the chances of LE showing up, etc. Given your review history it doesn't seem you're having all that great of time with the ladies who do not screen well.

I've been hobbying for 12 years and have never given anyone my real name, employer or address.  It's never been a problem.  As for videos, no thanks.  I always behave myself so trying to catch me doing something inappropriate is a waste of time...that's why I'm called Gentleman Tom

..."As for videos, no thanks.  I always behave myself so trying to catch me doing something inappropriate is a waste of time...that's why I'm called Gentleman Tom"....

Then you would have nothing to worry about. Unfortunately, not all guys are as gentlemanly as you and feel freer to misbehave when they know that they can't be tracked. I have never had to use the video but I feel so much more confident that it's there in case I need recourse.  

How much different would traffic be if everyone's name, address and phone number were printed in big letters on the back of the car?

It is true that some people exist who, being anonymous or pseudonymous behave in an exemplary fashion.

But it is far more likely that people who believe they can evade the consequences of misbehavior due to anonymity will act in an antisocial fashion.

Obviously, people can make choices and change rules as needed to deal with situations. There are providers I have seen with zero verification ... because I had also seen one of their close friends. There are others where I've gone the full gamut.

I don't see women who are stupid or who don't love themselves enough to care about their safety. Any woman I want to see is going to have her own rules for purposes of safety and comfort.

Because character and professional ethics are high priorities for me in a provider; I don't worry about what they might do to me unprovoked; or what they might do with my info. In fact, some of the women I've seen are of such extraordinary character that it is inspirational.

I have nothing to worry about.

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with your assessment, I do find it interesting that you find sex providers to be of such high moral fiber, yet you believe that their clients are not to be trusted alone with these young ladies without the threat of criminal prosecution.

I do believe that Matt, Al et al have been supplanted, I had no idea that you were the proud owner of the shiniest armor on the board. lol

I don't find it as easy to make such generalizations, I judge each person on their own merits. For every woman abusing "wolf in sheeps clothing" there is a "black widow in waiting" who would love to shake down an unsuspecting hobbyist.

Again, I don't really agree or disagree with your conclusions, I just find it interesting that you are so trusting of the women here,yet you think that there is a significant number of men who would act in a "anti social fashion" if a rein is not kept on them. I find your POV enlightening.

I'm not sure which previous post you are referring to but I think your point is evident enough.

I will goin the ranks of those disagreeing with you.  As I've said before I don't give out my full name, but I certainly expect a provider to screen me.  If she doesn't, I won't see her because that increases the risk more than I am willing to accept.

If she doesn't screen she ups the chance of getting busted.  That increases the chances of her being turned.  THAT increases my risk.

If she doesn't screen she clearly doesn't think her physical safety is worth much.  If she thinks that about herself I don't think she would give a fleeting thought to mine.  THAT increases my risk.

I have a couple paragraph e-mail that tells a little myself.  I send it via D-C or P-411 where they can see/check my 15+ refs.  That's all it's taken for years now.  I don't consider 1 e-mail jumping through hoops.

I see danged few providers. Probably, in any given year, I will see only 2-3 that I haven't already seen before. As a result, I can be incredibly selective -- and my primary criteria for those providers is ethics/character.

So my sample cannot be taken to represent providers as a whole. As a whole, people are tied up in their self-interest exclusively; without regard to their sex, profession or hobbies. That's why locks exist and are so prevalent. Some people interpret self-interest on a VERY short time horizon.

If a provider were to be as selective with hobbyists, I am certain those hobbyists would be equally trustworthy to the provider sample. But she'd also go broke.

Now -- for something that has been biting my craw that will demonstrate that I know better than to think that providers can be blindly trusted.

Today, I took a look at the National Blacklist listings for my region.

The national blacklist "outs" hobbyists -- their names, addresses, employers and other personal information.

When I looked at this list, I saw plenty ample reason why a hobbyist should be VERY VERY cautious in dealing with just any provider.

2/3rds + of the hobbyists "outed" were NOT outed over robbery, violence, threats or whatnot.

Rather, they were outed -- possibly causing damage to homelife, family, careers and more -- over ... and I am not shitting you ... **NCNS** or late-canceled appointments!

And there are gobs and gobs of these listings where providers with ZERO sense of justice or proportionality, who were likely to miss $300 max from that missing appointment, completely OUTED hobbyists!

So there are providers out there who, over an NCNS have no qualms whatsoever about destroying somebody's life -- having kids brought up without fathers, former wives living in near-poverty, people fired from their jobs, etc.

The National Blacklist stands as absolute testament to the indisputable fact that there are LOTS of providers out there who are NOT TO BE TRUSTED.

But, I don't see the type of provider who would out me on such a list for a late-canceled appointment either.

So my trust in "providers" cannot be read to be a trust of providers GENERALLY. In general, the National Blacklist tells me they can't be trusted.

Rather, my trust in "providers" applies only to a select group that I have decided can be trusted either based on evidence of strong ethics or powerful inhibitions based on perceived self-interest.

I do not believe that, as a whole, either hobbyists or providers are more trustworthy than the other.

But it is a helluva lot easier for ME to find 2-3 trustworthy providers than it is for a provider to find 100+ trustworthy clients, just because of sheer numbers.

Ms. literbike,

You stated the following:

> I will need that info OR I turn on
> the cameras....yes people, for those men
> who only give handles, fake names and are
> using online verification forms..I will
> have audio and visual recognition of the meeting.

1. Do you inform the client that you are doing this?

2. How long do you store this information?


Thanks.

If a gentleman is just that, a gentleman, he has nothing to worry about.

I protect myself at all times and if someone is coming to see me and wants to treat me in any way other than with decency, he will be held accountable.

Just to add, the cameras are not placed anywhere but in a common area.

Bullshit!!!

Yeah...there is a certain level of neurotic twitching going on in regards to screening. Bottom line—you’re absolutely right. For every provider who screens there are, who knows how many, women who do not. I can’t say why...maybe they fear a hit to their personal $business. Maybe they don’t see the value. Could be any number of things I’ve not considered. Only they could answer that question.

And, as with any other demographic in life, there are providers who are less than trustworthy; hell, might rob you blind if given a chance.

But....getting a good sense of a provider via her online presence/website/reviews (which *you* have every opportunity to do) and separating trustworthy from everything else is not exactly rocket science.

Screening is not about trying to “out” anyone. Screening is about safety for all involved. Screening is about not getting arrested; which....as pissed off as your wife might be if this were to happen, and as expensive as your divorce attorney might be, or as embarrassing as that might be, you're not going to have LE or IRS seizing your bank accounts and personal property (perspective).

But, really----much more importantly, screening is about safety for providers. The reality here is there are some very unsavory characters “out there” that have no qualms about doing harm---sometimes very serious, irreparable harm to women.

Any of you guys who think that personal insulation against your wife catching you is more important than a woman trying to verify, on some minimal level, she is not inviting a violent freak-show behind closed doors is……well, you’re really missing the point.  

Even if you're a nice and safe guy well everyone isn't you like others have said you should try to be seeing someone who screens as much as possible. When possible screening and giving references should happen, it's about trust and reputation.

You're a good one...... that military guy I wrote about before seems to be  a lot like Tom figures he's a nice guy and doesn't want to be screened and runs to the next provider who will make it easier FOR HIM as in no screening or verifying at all.