I know that there are probably as many different reasons as there are different women.  But what do you think some of those reasons might be?  If you have ever had any friends or acquaintances who were turned on by violent men, what were their reasons?

Thanks.

Probably from childhood.  Sad, but true.

This applies to both genders.

As a child, security is paramount to our survival. Many children are brought up in a familial situation where different behaviours are misconnected with security.

This may cause a pathology.

For instance:

A child may be hit by a father or mother while being raised, and associate the violence with security.

A child may be sexually involved with a family member and this may be associated with security.

A child may have to raise a sibling or nurse a disabled parent and associate this with security.

A child may be abandoned emotionally and this may be associated with security.

These events may cause a pathology such as being attracted to violent people or other pathologies that may be harmful.

Of course these events do not mean it is one's destiny or fate to exist in a pathology.

However, it is a good idea to examine one's own self to see if we have misconnected a behaviour with security.

I know what my pathology is, and it is a daily effort to move outside it. Will I defeat it?  No. Do I understand it and improve?  Yes.







-- Modified on 3/19/2005 4:57:14 PM

This is without a doubt, the most intelligent response to anything I have ever witnessed.  No more needs to be said.

Not to generalize women, because not all women are the same, but I've always noticed a disturbing trend with women and attraction to dangerous men, beyond any pathological abnormality. There is something attractive to many women about men who are dangerous, off limits, or just in general not the kind of man you'd want a relationship with. Womanizers, misogynists, thugs, criminals, control freaks, abusers, and whatever other type of @sshole you can think of is what many women are attracted to. I don't know how many sob stories I've had to listen throughout the course of my life, how many women I've had to console, and how many of them I've watched go right back to the abusive @sshole she was crying about before. There's something inexplicibly attractive about someone they have to "change" or "straighten up", and what usually happens is that the @sshole drags her down and destroys her life instead by knocking her up and leaving her high and dry. I've seen it so many times, and I try to be apathetic to it, but it's hard. Ladies of the board, why is this?

You are very correct. I have had to do the same thing with this one woman in particular. This guy has had her thrown in jail, stole her cell phone and made threatening calls to her family, scared her two daughters half to death. She has had to have him removed from outside her apartment. He has been physical with her, throwing her up against the wall and such. A year ago she was sitting in my living room crying about how mean he has been to her and how much she hates him and she is never going back to him.

Now about a month ago I find out she has been contacting him again, WTF???

Good to see you back I hope all is well with you...

One of the hardest things for me to learn was when to stop trying to help someone.  I remember one day is was driving home, saw a friend of mine standing on the side of the road, looking like hell.  She was trying to catch a ride, to get away from her boyfriend who had just knocked her around.

I took her out for some lunch and we talked for a couple of hours about their relationship, how he's always yelling at her, calling her worthless, and hitting her.  I think we came to a pretty soild conclusion that she deserved better than that, and maybe the best thing to do was to get away.  We spent the rest of the day hanging out, gosh we even went bowling -- the only time I've done that since high school.   At the end of the day, I got her a motel room, told her to get some rest, and if she needed anything, give me a call.

A couple of hours later, she called me, and said that she needed to go back to her apartment to get some things.  I was very clear. I said "Sandy, I've done this before,  If I take you back there, the next time I see you will be either in the hospital, or in jail.  I really don't want to do that, but I am not going to run your life."  She was adament that she'd only get her stuff and get out.  So, I dropped her off, and waited for her to come back out, even though knew where this was going.  I called he on her cell phone after about half an hour.  I said "How are things going?"  She said "None of you business."  I just sighed and went home.

Well, the good thing was, the next time I heard from her, it wasn't from the hospital.  She and her boyfriend had gotten caught scamming a store, and he ran out and let her get caught, because if he got caught again he'd go away for a long time--you know the story.  All she needed was a little bail money and a ride home.  I had to admit to her that I was surprised that she had called, but I wouldn't be able to help he out this time.

Don't know if she's still with him, I do hear about her every once in a while, so I know she's still around.  I'm completely at a loss to figure it out also.

The unfortunate thing is that this type of thing happens all the time. I've also always had a problem knowing when to stop trying to help these women. I've done the consoling, I've wipe away the tears, I've given advice and cared for them, only to watch them go back so many times. Sadly, one of these women I actually fell in love with, and to this day, I'm still not over her after nearly four years. After a 5 month relationship with this woman, whom I had convinced to leave her abusive ex, she goes back to this @sshole because she says she still loves him. Now she has 3 kids, he doesn't have a job other than selling pot on the side, and she's stripping to make ends meet. That's love for you.

I too have a friend.  Things got so bad that she had to stab him with a knife to defend herself.  (He is careful in that he only hits her where it can be covered up!)

Well, she went to Jail, he is free....   so, who can say what is next for her, except I hear that she STILL loves this guy.  Go figure.

Treat them bad, cheat on them and yet the women still go back to them...for more of the same??....Why??

*SIGH*
Thats the never ending question....I have yet to find an answer.

I am not so much attracted to jerks as I like guys who can take their problems and deal with them w/o giving me the story about how all the women out there screwed them over and if I was a wonderful person, I would see how caring they were and marry them instead of dating some player.

Problem is, the "nice" guy puts the waterworks on each time he doesn't get a bj or I don't have time to talk to him while the player gives me my space and respects my moods if I don't feel like going at it every night b/c he isn't dependant on me for happiness.

So, I tend consider myself a "nice" guy.  I try not to be pushy unless I find it necessary, I try hard to be respectful, and I try always to remember that the other person is a person too, and to put myself in their shoes and interact with them on that basis.

And yet I am not going to put on waterworks if a woman gives me her boundaries; I respect her enough to respect her boundaries, too.  I don't consider myself dependent on anyone BUT myself for my happiness, so if you're too busy to talk to me I'll say "Ok cool, have a nice night!" and hang up (not sarcastic at all).

The only general exception to that rule is with friends who have been friends for a decade who seem like they're blowing me off; I can read people well enough to know that behavior is generally indicative not of being busy, but of being upset, and since they're very good friends I care about how they're doing so I might push the issue if I think the situation calls for it.

Maybe I'm something in between a "nice" guy and a jerk?

Or maybe I'm just a different kind of "nice" guy.  I guess I never thought about it... I just always thought I was the "nice" guy which is why girls always want to be my FRIEND and not my lover..

I once studied this in some depth, and I don't believe that the women are attracted by violence at all.  It's a very complex topic, which can't really be dealt with in a simple post, but TheMealTicket gave a good indication of the sorts of matters which come into play.

Some of it is cyclical - both the perpetrators and victims can come from families where violence is the norm, so this can be learned behaviour, but that isn't always the case.  And, contrary to many clichéd ideas, violence can occur in any home and is not exclusive to poorer families, and the men aren't necessarily uneducated or inarticulate.

Of course, every case is different, but if generalisations are to be made, the behaviour is very often escalating.  It may start off comparatively low-key, maybe with aggressive behaviour in an argument, which turns to verbal abuse, and over a period of time becomes more and more aggravated, also increasing in frequency.  It needn't turn physically violent at all; mental or emotional abuse can be equally corrosive.  Anyway, between these periods they will have loving reconciliations, promises that the behaviour is an abhorration and will not recur.  So this aspect of the behaviour within the relationship is cyclical too.  

As time goes on, the women become more entrapped in the relationship (emotionally and/or finacially), and are increasingly manipulated by it.  These men can be manipulative in the extreme.  At the same time, the women's self-esteem is eroded until they feel worthless, that they cannot cope alone, that in fact they deserve what they get.  They will be told and come to believe that the situation is their fault, that they acted provocatively and so are to blame for the outcome.  They will feel isolated, perhaps alienated from those who could help, ashamed by the predicament they find themselves in, and will consider themselves to be failures.

In talking to women who have endured this kind of behaviour, it's very similar to anyone who finds themselves with an addiction or compulsion.  They generally have to reach such a low point, or there has to be a moment of crisis, where they have to acknowledge the problem and seek to get out of it for themselves and their families.  

I'm aware that it's exceedingly frustrating for anyone who is caught up in the maelstrom of this sort of relationship - even as a professional advisor it's soul-destroying to go through the motions of trying to help them, only for them to back-track, but the only thing you can do is continue to be there for them when they do eventually need you.

Aphra

My childhood is littered with abusive men my mom felt the need to become attached to.  Her scars are external; my scars are internal.

My MOM's childhood is littered with horrible stories about her father and the things he did to her - so I think it's fair to say that learned experience has something to do with it.  It's also a fairly well-known phenomenon: children who grow up in abusive households tend more often than not to associate violence with security, and since humans are creatures of habit, we re-enact that behavior in our adult relationships.

I was told when I was 5 that I would end up exactly like my mom's (now ex-)husband.  I vowed, at that moment, to do whatever I had to do to make that not true.. my chosen coping mechanism was philosophy.  I decided to figure out how the world works, and to find a reason to love life.

I don't think anyone who lives that kind of childhood is doomed to become violent themselves, or for the women, doomed to always be attracted to violent men.. while it certainly becomes more likely, I like to look at myself and my sister as proof that it doesn't have to be that way (because despite all the garbage my sister had to go through [he was a mysogenist], she, too, has learned to develop healthy relationships instead of violent ones).

Why? That's not really the interesting question; we know that attaching violence to security creates habitual behaviors.

What's really interesting is how people learn to cope with it and whether those coping mechanisms are healthy or unhealthy, and whether they learn to lead happy, successful lives, or perpetuate the cycle of violence they were born into.

-- Modified on 3/20/2005 8:28:13 AM

They'd be conjecturing.  A better group of women to ask might be SW's.  They might lack the degree of instrospection you need, however.  

I'll give you my conjecture: if a woman perceives from her childhood that she is in an overwhelmingly violent world, then the dominant, guiding sexual fantasy to her may be to attract and seduce the the most violent SOB she can for protection.  This would actually be quite a logical, psycho-biological response to violence and insecurity.    

She has problems, though, if she can't psychologically control him and restrain his violence if it is trained on her, and its especially bad for her when she and her children become his favorite victims.      

I'm not saying that a woman would think this plan out consciously (though a few might).  If anything, it would involve what she finds herself attracted to, which adjusted by the neurochemical response to the environment she grew up in.



-- Modified on 3/20/2005 4:00:55 PM

Thanks, doing great!

but not in regards to necessarily violent men but those who are more daring, rough and tough, or somehow "bad". I read something many years ago about how women are attracted to men who are more wild and rough because that's what makes them feel more secure in a different sense such as in ancient times when they defended their wives from wild animals; from warring neighbors; pistols at dawn in the wild west, etc.
Women like to see men acting like men in their most natural state and get turned on when they see Tarzan who will take on wild prey and overcome nature; draw a sword like Robin Hood, etc, etc.
Today, there isn't anything like that - no dragons, no pograms, no wild animals, no pistols in Dodge.
But there are gang lords, pimps, drug dealers and it's the excitement that's a turn-on.
Just as being a provider is more exciting and more of a turn on than being a cashier.

Zinaval said, "I wouldn't expect many providers here to have an answer to this. They'd be conjecturing.  A better group of women to ask might be SW's.  They might lack the degree of instrospection you need, however."

Oh dear.  This is exactly the type of stereotyping that I was referring to earlier - the idea that streetwalkers rather than high class call girls are the more likely victims of domestic violence.  In truth, this type of violence knows no barriers.  If that were the case, a judge's wife, a doctor's wife and, indeed, a minister of religion's wife wouldn't have stories to tell.  

Any woman here who hasn't been the subject of domestic violence would be guilty of conjecturing, I suppose.  If that's the case, I'm conjecturing too.  It's just that I've interviewed women who have suffered it; first in academic research and later in the capacity of advisor.  If any of them happened to be prostitutes, I never knew.  But that's neither here nor there, really.

Aphra

... than escorts and courtesans.  Unfortunate tht you think of this as just more stereotyping.  I tend to think that if a SW moves up, it's to get out of the sex industry altogether, not to become a courtesan.  SW's would tend to be in their niche because they are desperate.  Desperation means less effort available for introspection.  This desperation could be due many factors, but one thing, I'd conjecture, -- is more prevalence of psychological damage due to abuse.  

I don't think that this is true, of the independent provider, who's start entry into the business appears to be a rational decision.  But I'm not very experienced in all of this, yet.  This is my current opinion.  

I'll try to make it a flexible stereotype.  All of this varies with economics and culture.  Right now, in this culture,  this is what I think happens.

Since, Aphra, you have worked with women exposed to violence, you're more qualified than I.  Why do you think such women may find an attraction in more violent men, and tend to get into relationships with them?

In case I wasn't clear before, my comment about your statement related to the fact that you seemed to be saying that streetwalkers are more susceptible to domestic violence, the inference being that they're lower down the pecking order than escorts - ie there was an issue of wealth or class.  I saw the comment this way because there has always been a perception that domestic violence is more prevalent among the lower or poorer classes, which isn't necessarily true.  That's what I meant by stereotyping.  

Now, I wonder if you need to differentiate domestic violence from other forms of abuse.  For instance, is violence by a pimp domestic?  I guess the answer is "it depends" but, for the purposes of this discussion I'd say that it isn't.  To me a pimp isn't a spouse or marital partner.  I can quite easily envisage that a streetwalker is surrounded by a more violent environment generally, given her location, profession, social status and lots of other societal and cultural factors, but they aren't necessarily germain to this discussion, on the specific subject of domestic violence.  Remember the original question was, "What are some of the reasons why some women are turned on by violent men?"  If you look at my original reply, posted above, you'll see that I'm saying, well, actually, they're not usually attracted to violent men; the violence comes later.

Some posters have referred to the fact that women are attracted to strong, macho types; "bad boys" if you like.  We're all aware of the caveman fantasy.  And there may be some truth in the idea that women see a man's strength as protection or security.  But some truth also lies in the fact that these men aren't necessarily the ones who beat up their wives.  Domestic abuse is a separate issue.  The most puny, lanky looking guy can be a wife-beater.  The most charming, hail-fellow-well-met chap who buys a round of drinks at the bar may go home and terrorise his wife.  Some may conform to the stereotypical image, but many do not.  I heard about a case just last week, where the boyfriend was a librarian.  He kicked his girlfriend in the head so badly that he gave her irreperable brain-damage.  Why was this girl attracted to him?  Only she can answer the question definitively, but unfortunately she can no longer speak.

I once represented a young girl, a teenage bride, who'd been married a matter of months.  Her new husband beat her around the head with dog chains.  I saw her on a Friday and by the Monday she'd dropped the proceedings, as I expected she would.  Why was she attracted to him?  I'm not sure she knew herself.  I sometimes wonder what happened to her.

Aphra

...but the life of a SW is usually that of severe helplessness and psychological damage.  I'm saying that the women there are often damaged, and sometimes by a violent childhood-- not by current violence.  There was one provider here (Danielle Dubois) who did describe her complete frustration in trying to take SWs and show them the ropes of being independent providers.  She reported she had no success.  There are other things that could cause or aggravate damage-- such as a demanding drug habit.  For SW's, I don't believe sex is really enjoyable.  I believe it's a way to get to non-sexual pleasures-- put food on the table, or often times, get drugs to escape life again, or kill pain.  That's why I said if they move up, it's often to leave the sex industry completely.  

I have my own educational experiences in this regard.  Having had my first job in an extremely violent neighborhood in the 70s, and the women I worked with there (it was fast food, but the incidence of domestic violence I saw would make anyone in the general public think I was describing the porn industry.)  Later, I did some social service.  Later, I was foreman on a grand jury, an experience which brought about a nervous breakdown.  

But the most educational experience I had was a short-term relationship with a recovered addict.  I wrote out the details of what she told me and what I learned from her, but I had to delete most of it here-- too personal  Let's just say, after a terrible, violent, neglectful childhood, she had a teen life of sex, drugs, multiple rape, and abuse, it looked like she was heading for a SW life.  Then at age 14, she fell in love with an ill-tempered, violent man, who married her, (this was in the Ozarks) and kept her supplied with drugs.  In the midst of this, she began to have children.  And in her children, for the first time, she felt that there was a meaning to her life.  Also, it was the threat of losing her children that finally drove her to give up drugs.

But by that time, she was long divorced.  Seven years into the marriage, the pedephilic, violent scumbag she married had turned his violence on her and their children.  

In the confidences she told me, she did say that she took the initiative in teaching herself sex early on-- I won't say how.  Sex wasn't physically enjoyable to her then, but it did give her a sense of power,(something that Tracy Lords mentions in her book, BTW) and a way to barter for drugs.  

So, I know that there's a fantasy of power that comes with sex for some women in violent circumstances.  But this woman confiding in me also said something else-- that she really, really fell for this loser.  She said she used to spend hours when he was away just staring at his pictures.  She wasn't calculating a seduction-- she was enthralled.  

Therefore I think, nothing was more viscerally thrilling to her, made her feel more powerful, than knowing that there was a violent man she believed was committed to her.  

That's different, BTW, from women who fall for librarians who later turn out to be violent.    

I am thankful for your thoughtful post in this regard.  I hope this has clarified my opinions.


-- Modified on 3/21/2005 12:34:39 AM

Thank you for your post, and for elaborating on your viewpoint.  I think that part of our debate stems from the fact that we are looking at the issue from different angles as a result of our individual experiences.  Well, that's as things should be, of course.

You give a very interesting, moving example in the woman you once knew.  Yes, there are undoubtedly women like her, born and raised in deprived circumstances who become infatuated and then embroiled in a destructive relationship with a violent man.  Sometimes they do it repeatedly.  And yes, some of this type of behaviour is learned or acquired.  I did agree with that idea in my original post - I just added that this isn't always the case.  As I also said, it's difficult, perhaps dangerous to generalise about something like this, when every case is individual and has to be viewed on its own merits.  One can only look for patterns, and distinguish and differentiate as the need arises.  

I won't veer off into the subject of why streetwalkers or escort do the job which they do, which is entirely another subject, really.  Thank you, though, Zin, for a really interesting discussion.

Aphra

I hope you don't find my answer offensive

if I find a man who is so wonderful that he is a keeper, I keep him as a friend b/c my family tends to screw up my relationships (two brothers who threaten to kill any guy who deflowers their 29yr old sister) and my mom used to sit every serious guy down w/ my baby photos and the bible so until I want to get married, I keep all wonderful men close enough to hang out w/ them but far enough away that they keep a positive feeling associated with me.

I don't think I am a bad person but you can't control certain parts of your life so I like being the escort. I can be anyone I want to be and accepted

The problem may not be you, it may be circumstances in life. Relationships are scary and those of us who have had past abuse or poor self image may find it scary to be with Mr. Right until we become Ms. Right.