This time, the love-pharmacolgy connection.

Background on this case: my atf (petite goddess love bomb and all around great girl) was to be far away for the winter. Thus, I had first considered the 6 hour mega date, but upon reflection, concluded that my emotional-erotic-endocrine complex would be better served by two three hour grooves one day apart.

Earlier on this board, we discussed the use of pro-hormones such as DHEA (much hyped IMHO, but, as always, ymmv) and a DHEA metabolite that I was more impressed by, 7-keto-DHEA, normally packaged in the 25 milligram capsule.

I had powerful sexual intensification from 25 mg. dosages of keto-DHEA but the side effects were not appealing. The direct effects, on the other hand, were superior to Viagra as this substance acts as a general metabolic toner, not merely a vasodilator to the penile blood supply.

Obviously, a better dosing strategy was called for. On the first of the two dates, your humble correspondent carefully squeezed out about 5 milligrams of keto-DHEA and allowed it to absorb sublingually (the right way to get it into your bloodstream).

The dose felt right. There was exactly enough effect to know that the substance was unmistakably working, but none of the heavy body-mind push that says, "wrong side of the dosage response curve, dude"...

Day one... the sex was incredible, like all day college dorm sex with your girlfriend, dfk for half an hour, daty for half an hour, dfk for another half hour, a spirited romp, cuddle some, bbbj some, had some cerebral academic discussions, some more DFK... clock runs way over.... who cares..

Concluded that, at the brain is as as rich in hormonal receptors as the body is that the application of the right dose of a prohormone (remember, more does not equate with more result... often more pro-hormone than is needed defeats its effect !) can bring about both a physical state and a mental state of youthful engagement.

Day two, rushed out the door and forgot to take my 5 mg. dose.
Noticed that I felt decidedly mellower and less "there" in the passionate sense, but was still very much there mentally. Both my emotional and physical intensity had lost a slight, but unmistakable edge.

This wasn't automatically a bad thing, as we slipped into the groove, only a different groove, different planes of communication. Hours of massaging, stroking, drifting off into little private headspaces, drifting back, near psychic interplay of moods, stories, tongues, five intense daty Os rolled her way... all in all, slower, softer, feeling my age more...

Next day... drained, reduced to a puddle.... it dawns slowly... we had maintained total emotional focus on each other for hours at a time so deeply we were not aware of how powerfully we were directing our consciousness at each other, like two lasers.

Would I, or could I have gotten to that place without the brain tightening of the keto-dhea on the first day, and probably some residual effect on the second ? Cannot answer that for certain,
but it was the most unusual and intense experience I've ever had in this form of life.

Enjoyed your report.  Is this stuff available over the counter?  And what did you mean by: "absorb sublingually"?
Thanks

available o.t.c. , not controlled, no prescription required. Sublingual means pulling the capsule apart, measuring out how much you need, and sprinkling it under your tongue. Leave it there for at least one full minute.

Everyone will respond differently. Some may get what they need from 5 mg., or one fifth of the capsule, others may need more.

 You'll have some idea your in the right area if you feel a gentle buzz in your prostrate area and a defogging of your mind.

FWIW, I also take Proscar (a 5 mg. dose of finesteride) daily, and have taken proscar for years. Proscar is a prostrate medication, but I take it for general anti-aging effects, including the prevention of BPH. Proscar will resist testosterone from becoming testosterone's problem child, DHT, which causes baldness, prostate swelling, visible skin aging, etc.

 Proscar may help insure that a pro-hormone doesn't turn into a bad metabolic end product.  It will also keep your hair thick and full.

 I have also had encouraging results with Ginko extract, both the 60 mg. tablets and the liquid. Ginko acts as a capillary vasodilator (improves blood flow) and is reported to be a mild dopamine agonist (like a very mild form of Uprima, but without the side effects), and is non-toxic... although you shouldn't use it for extended periods at high doses...

 Ginko will give your experinece more zing, but in a different way from keto-dhea. For my next experiment, I will combine keto-dhea and ginko and see what happens.

Do you consider this drug use?  Experimentation?  Abuse?

Do you even consider this stuff "drugs"?  Or do you think that because it's in the alternative or herbal or natural or health suplement store it's automatically OK?

you seem quite knowledgeable. Are you a professional pharmacologist? (I am). I've found that viagra is quite an effective drug for ensuring that the little guy behaves. Recently, My ATF and I have started doing a few tokes of cannabis at the begining of a session. Makes for a very relaxed atmosphere and enhances the experience for both of us. I was wondering if you have any experience with alternative, legal herbs such as the salvia species that is around now.

in this case, carefully considered use, not abuse.

subject is 46 year old white male with overactive sex drive in high stress occupation living in major metropolitan area.

first, I have an excellent blood pressure meter, the Omron-707, and testing for b.p. reactions is a good idea with things of this nature. Came in on this high side this morning 144/90, but I think this was due to lack of aerobic exercise.

Tested the idea, took 5 mg. of keto-dhea more or less, and three dropperfulls of ginko biloba extract. Had a rapid "fog lifting" reaction that caffeine won't quite pull off, and headed to the gym for a workout.

30 minutes of orbital stepping machine at a target heart rate of  130 b.p.m. and half an hour of resistance work, some roundhouse kicks at the heavy bag...

Did notice that the workout felt significantly better than average, not hyped up, but focused, into keeping good form together, "fully on purpose"...

Got home, retested blood pressure, 130/76, which is about as good as I can get it, slept for a few hours, took a hot bath, retested at 126/75...

So, my conclusion at this point is that moderate doses of keto-dhea are not, in and of themselves, hypertensing.

But, make no mistake about it, hypertension IS insidious, especially after you are 40, and lack of exercise, being overweight, consuming too much salt, and walking around gritting your teeth and being pissed off WILL get you hypertensive. You also won't get laid as often. And when you do it won't be as much fun. And IF you have to go on blood pressure medicine, sex really won't be as much fun.

Having said all that, IF you fit the above description, any prohormone, keto-dhea included, MAY aggravate pre-existing hypertension. One cannot pop ANY supplement, medicine, whatever, and have it magically compensate for every other decision you make about eating, exercise, emotional health, whatever.

Second, I do get extensive blood testing done with the goal of knowing what my hormone levels are, as well as everything else.

The difference between "use" and "abuse" is a philosophical one. IMHO, "use" is what happens when you diligently try to understand the consequences of your decisions, act in a conservative but efficacious manner, and do so in a way that improves the general quality of your life and those around you.

  "Abuse", OTOH, is what happens when one takes substances recklessly with no knowledge of how they function, with disregard for potential consequences, and/or in a manner that is potentially destrucive to oneself and those around one.

thank you... no, I don't work actively in pharmacology, but I do have a background in biology and have always had a strong interest in pharmacology.

Cannabis can be wonderously effective, but my life is far removed from anyone who has access to it. Cannabis seems to quiet part of the brain and "let the stars come out" in the words of one researcher. My own sensibilities have moved from the school of thought that believes that one should push the envelope as far as possible to the idea that one seeks as much body-mind integration as possible. Cannabis, in moderate doses, does seem to allow for a better integrated experience, where alcohol is dulling.

Salvia (as in the smoked S. Divinorum leaf, salvinorin concentrates, and whatever else that may be available) is a different thing altogether. It appears to be a dissociative that can range in effect from calming (there was a study where it was used as a meditative aid, and the claimed results were that one experienced a more satisfying meditation with liminal doses) to profoundly hallucinogenic. My impression is that at the same point where it becomes pro-erotic it also becomes disorienting. Take a little too much and the experience becomes overwhelming. I am generally reluctant to consider disociatives as they are reported to inflict damage on NMDA receptor neurons.
The closest known stuff may be the cough supressant, DXM, made famous by the NyQuil trippers.

These things are not well tested.  This is not evidence based medicine.  You mentioned ginko biloba.  It, for example is known to increase blood flow to the brain....and to cause hemorrhage!

you'd be downright amazed at how medicine (especially the pharm. side of medicine ) is run by big money and politics. The American pharmacological research on Ginko isn't deep at all, but the German research is impressive. The Germans have what are known as "schedule E" medicines, those based on traditional plant extracts, etc, but which medical doctors can prescribe. Schedule E testing is rigorous.

As I stated, Ginko in large doses over extended periods could be problematic.

It does have blood thinning properties and may increase the permeability of the capillary wall. To be more precise, I do not think it causes hemmorhage, but it may exacerbate the consequences of hemmorhage. (but am happy to be disproved if the evidence supports your assertion)

Ginko, in high doses and over time, is also immunosuppressive. I was taking large doses for several years, and during that period I experienced an unusual number of bad (Augmentin for two weeks) earaches and lower respiratory infections that wouldn't resolve.

However, Ginko in moderate dodes, for brief periods, appears to work in a beneficial and synergystic way with other supplements.

Keep in mind that "evidence" is an elusive concept. Most things we have discovered began as folklore, rough observations about the world, traditions, etc, that are then increasingly refined as their mechanisms are understood.

You will enjoy reading about the travails of J.F. Kennedy, one of modern history's great afficionados of sexual connection, and the medical treatements he was exposed to. By our contemporary standards, these were barbaric, at the time they were consistent with the highest standards of medical practice.

Use of Ginko Biloba for Sexual Dysfunction

"Recently, ginko biloba (GB), an herbal remedy, has been reported in the anecdotal literature to improve sexual desire, arousal, and orgasmic function in patients with SSRI-associated sexual dysfunction. Clinical warning: Because both SSRIs and GB have antihemostatic effects, coadministration of these drugs may increase the risk for bleeding. For more information on this issue see Psychiatry Drug Alerts XII(6), June 1998."

FYI, by SSRIs they mean medicines like Paxil, Prozac, Zoloft...
anything that is "serotonin selective re-uptake inhibitor"... So, if you're on these meds, ginko is a no-no

The American Medical Association would love you to buy all the synthetic drugs in the world and think that all those "mumbo jumbo herbs and stuff" were for the birds....

Gee, those herbs have been around a hell of a lot longer than western medicine and those "herbs" have saved my life more than once.

I don't take western medicine unless I really REALLy have to.

I find that natural medicines work much better in most situations.

It IS all big business as he says.

In China they've been living to be 100 plus for a very long time

We can't say that here in the drug pushin' US of A.

Big Business indeed..!!! But the interesting part of it all is that alot of the Pharm. Co. have been selling herbs and natural ingrediences, used by the native americans for hundreds of years, and calling them a "New" product. Tacking a clever name onto them, along with a hefty price...The bottom line here is EDUCATION..!!!