In various threads, I have read where providers have reluctantly stopped seeing clients who crossed some line, or pushed boundaries.  Clients who until that point, were welcome and usually repeat customers.  What did these guys do to cause you to dump them?

I ask, because I find myself in a situation where for the first time in four years of hobbying I have stepped out of the basic encounter.  Where we have our two hour session, have a great time and then part company with very little contact, till the next time.  I was reluctant to move beyond this style of relationship, since I believed that keeping things 100% professional, well-defined, and somewhat distant was the way stuff is supposed to work in this world.

So with one lady, I picked up very subtle hints that she was interested in a bit more than the strictly defined sessions mentioned above.  I waited a long time before taking the next step, and probably came across as not interested or aloof.  So eventually I asked her on a dinner date to celebrate something that was a big deal to me IRL.  She jumped at the chance, and wanted no extra comp for doing this.  By this time, we had known each other for about a year and a half.

That experience was beyond amazing.  No awkward silences - everything just flowed.  Two people having a lot of fun together.  I was really careful to not treat her like a paid provider during the off-the-clock time.  All the touching and hints of what was coming was at her initiative.  I probably seemed aloof for a while. When this was all over, my point of view was that this experience blew away everything else that has happened to me in this business.  And I have had the pleasure of being with some amazing women in the hobby.

So I am at the point with her, that I don't feel like returning to the standard cut-and-dried sessions.  I recently reached out to set up another appointment, and she told me that she would like to do drinks in advance since the appointment date is near her birthday.  She has previously hinted that she would like to travel together, and I am now wondering if I should take that step.

This is not a story of some dumb-ass hobbyist falling for a provider.  We don't even live in the same city.  I can only see her maybe half a dozen times a year.  What this looks like to me is a friendship layered on top of a business relationship.  Which is how I think she sees it too.  She is UTR, but no newbie.  I think she has been in the business close to ten years. I don't expect or want free sessions.  Ever.  

So the path we seem to be on is one where we are getting closer and closer, and getting comfortable enough where we share stuff going on IRL.  The reason for my original question, is that I don't want to screw this situation up.  This feels like hobbying in a whole new league for me.

My experience tells me when a love sick John mutters the words "I am not in love with my hooker" it is almost always a sign that he is. It's called a "tell."

Just be honest with yourself. You have feelings for her. No need to hide it. Scream it from the rooftops!

And when you fall off that roof, I will be here, picking up your dumb ass hobbyist self as everyone but me laughs at you. Now, I may giggle once or twice, but I promise I will not laugh.

You see, I am a professional with tons of experience with John's like yourself.

And I will be here for you.

END OF MESSAGE

Set boundaries! Be very clear - and if something doesn't seem right, set boundaries! I had a girlfriend ask me on a lunch date, "I hope this isn't out of your way, or inconvenient..." I replied, "If it were inconvenient, believe me - I would tell you,and I wouldn't come out. I schedule accordingly to pack a bunch of stuff at once."

She replied, "Thank you for setting boundaries, Courtney. When you set boundaries, I feel safe."

That hit me. But then let's go back to client/provider world. I don't promise extra perks or OTC - but if a client is CONSTANTLY going out of his way for me, tipping me and gifting me well over my donation - I'll definitely show gratitude for that. It makes things more fluid. He may not be able to stay as long sometimes, but still pays over his donation. But sometimes we'll chit-chat a bit over time, too.

If I have a guy who gives me EXACT - every - single - time - over time, I start giving him exact back. But if we can both show mutual respect by going above and beyond, things will evolve into a more fluid relationship, or a sugar daddy / sugar baby - or as I call it "Platinum Benefactor" relationship. I have two arrangements, one is a little lighter, one is a travel. One takes me shopping, books - on the dot - always tips, and buys me tons of things I love... but due to the arrangement, I have steady income, and if I have some extra time, and he pays for the stuff, we'll go shopping. It actually saves him money, and I have a shopping partner. Granted, this guy has seen me well over 20 times at full rate over the last couple of years.

Then there are the people you not only naturally click with, but also the people who do something to you that just inspire you, and make you feel alive. (Most of my benefactors; however, I'm talking that chemistry that infects your inner being for months, if you can't see each other often!)

I love those! But in order to keep the pain of their "real life" out of your head, there are two boundaries. The wives, and the money. I've been in the "fallen for a client" category before, but I know deep down if the money flow stopped, it would break my heart. The money keeps everyone knowing they are doing their part, and there is no "uh-oh, did she want me to pay her, not pay her, am I contributing enough?"

Let's keep it real. Most of you guys can't be 100 percent there, even if you wanted to be. That can bring some guilt on your part, (granted you have deep emotions for one another,) and cause a kink in the openness and freeness of the relationship. The money - as much as we want to say "stop paying her and find out" - the money keeps those questions from arising, and keeps everyone knowing they're doing their part.

On my side, he's going back to his wife. And he can leave me at the drop of a hat. So if I have money, he hasn't left me. He has invested in my future, and even my business for what I offered to him. No way I'm stooping to being a home wrecker, and it's just not going to happen - keeping it real, unless something really terrible happens in a married man's life, he's not running off with his hooker. And anyone who wants terrible things to happen just so they can have you to themselves - does - not - love - you!

In the same conversation, my friend and I expressed our desire to not "take" from each other... but I replied, "You know, you have paid for our meals twice when I was a broke ass ho... I really want to pay for this, because if I don't feel I can contribute something to the relationship after being given to, I don't feel like it's a real friendship - in fact, I feel inferior. I don't want that."

Inferiority is a big thing, and it can actually be a trick or a trap in sales, to give something for free in the beginning to guilt someone into buying something. (Think lotion at malls, or make-up counter makeovers, lol!) And people feel inferior all the time when someone gives them something for free. It can cause guilt, uncertainty, and even stress... causing the relationship to go sour, because there are no boundaries, or give and take.

Over time, just take care of her in special ways - it'll dissolve any question as to whether or not you are tricking her, or trying to get away with something. Don't take a mile when she gives you an inch. If she wants to travel with you, and just have you pay expenses, take her on a shopping spree, and budget a certain amount to buy her something nice, and a spa visit by herself. Schedule some time away, but while you're away from each other, do the sexy thing - wad of cash, "go buy yourself something nice - have a nice dinner..." blah blah. (These are for vacations.) This right here is YOUR boundary. Your right to contribute to a relationship. This is a boundary for YOUR mental and emotional comfort in the relationship, not only hers.

Even when a gift isn't expected, it really does earn trust that you don't need to be asked to contribute something. But over time, if she is really asking you for this, contribute gifts.

"A man's gift makes room for him, and brings him before great men." (Or beautiful women.)


-- Modified on 4/10/2016 1:19:38 PM

The lesson I learned last week as I was fumbling through dates, and feeling "less than" because I have forgotten to do my positive self-talk, and have been talking negatively to myself...

Anyway..

Is -the harder you try not to fuck something up, the more you'll fuck up.

I get rid of guys who want all i's dotted, all t's crossed, and get upset when I forget the lighter. (Just last week I forgot the lighter for the candles, and the guy really wanted the candles lit. Instead of being a little demanding bitch, he went out to his car and got a lighter. He still got what he wanted, but he helped fill in a gap. This is professional, but there is a relational piece if you're seeing this person on a regular basis. He gets that. Bravo!)

Some of the most terrifying, guilt-prodded, and depressing times of my life were when I confused legalism and perfection with boundaries. Legalism puts a false front on relationships.

I've been going NUTS improving my looks. Completely different story today vs 2, even 1 year ago. BUT. Last week I lost a little "personal touch" because I was so focused on having all my t's crossed, and i's dotted. Worry will do nothing but damage things. Just assess, communicate, and set boundaries. EVEN boundaries she may try to bust down - if she doesn't want cash, buy her a mercedes. (KIDDING JACK DUNPHY) But yeah - take her shopping or get her something cool for her real life.

xoxo

C

-- Modified on 4/10/2016 1:21:26 PM

Oh my god, I crack me up. 😂😆😂😆

Prediction -- It won't last long but it could be great fun before it gets complicated.

My unsolicited advice FWIW -- Go for it, enjoy it to the fullest, keep your sits about you and have no regrets when it ends.  Good luck!

I have heard provider/client relationships that are still going after eight - ten years. And it keeps getting more passionate and fun, but the common denominator is...

 
wait for it...

 
The guys are still paying the girls!

When OTC happened too much, and the guys barely booked one hours, and still asked for discounts - guess what? We pretty much hate each other now.

If both people have character, and really do take care of each other, really trying to keep that money and service flowing back and forth, it really can work long term. (And I'm not talking about tit-for-tat-hourly pay, I'm talking security and regular financial support...) But the ones where the guy stopped providing for her - it's too bad, because this can get really deep and sexy, but the only way I have ever heard from many ladies I have talked to, is when the guy was regularly contributing financially. Yeah, they have fallen in love over time, but there's a certain level of trust that you're not being taken for granted when they keep gifting you.

The biggest thing that I have heard and felt myself, that has absolutely sabotaged relationships is... wait for it... him not giving her shit, but seeing other providers at 1k-2k a pop. That is such a slap in the face to have someone say "I love you more than any other" and not take care of her at all - instead, take care of women he doesn't love. Fuck that shit! lol!

I don't see it working if there is NO gifting, spoiling, nourishing financially... Something may be "special", but it's special because of mutual respect. You can turn something special into sour by taking it for granted.

I've been taken for granted over and over again, and have written extensively on this, trying to figure out what it is that makes me feel burned. So I consider myself an expert in this area lmao!

-- Modified on 4/10/2016 1:34:07 PM

I know a few gentlemen who have married the provider, some who are just great friends and sometimes a sugar daddy relationship. When you have great chemistry with your provider, that evolves into a great relationship then the line between business and something more becomes vague.  It happens all the time.  That is why some guys will pay and do anything for a provider they really like.  Its more than just sex, its true companionship,  a best friend,  a confidant and more.
My advice is to go with the flow, enjoy every moment and not worry too much.  Life is too short so live it to the full.
Good luck
Kisses

Frederica

Guess not.

I love your responses.

You Nailed it.
Zak

Any relationship that is done as transnational is an acquaintance relationship at best. True friends don't charge for sex or expect to be spoiled financially. Lawyers,. doctors and tailors are example of acquaintances. You pay them each time you see them. A true friend would mean that she would expect him to pay for a hotel and meals but the fucking would be for free. IOW, a fuck buddy.

This guy mentioned in a previous thread that he does not want doses of reality. He creates his own reality.

 I'm sure you are happy with guys who are "showering" you with money and gifts. It looks like you have hooked some big fish.

I have been down this road a few times.

Sometimes it works out great, others, not so much.

Keep your expectations low and your eyes open.  It can be a great experience.

And, I have been kicked to the curb a few times as well.  Sometimes I found out, sometimes I assumed what the reason was, but most times, I will never know.

On the other side of the coin, I've kicked a few gals to the curb, and they probably don't know why.  Life evens out

I did not even read the replies from guys but I figured I would kid you with a typical negative reply.  Actually, I agree with you that something like that is truly special.  My advice is pretty simple, enjoy, don't take anything for granted, and like in any relationship, communicate.  Something rather similar happened to me after doing this for a long time and I am darned glad it happened.

Have you ever been married? In all financial levels, there are women who take care of the home and kids, while the husband is off to work. (I am trained in ministry and pastoral marriage type stuff - which I didn't end up doing - but bare with my old fashioned examples.)

So let me ask you this. A man and a wife are married. He never buys his wife anything. He doesn't take her out to dinner, he doesn't buy her flowers, he doesn't do anything - and she's at home waiting for him (while doing a shit ton of stuff the guy will never even begin to understand, which is why I'm not marrying.)

Then he gets home, and she finds he's been paying all of these ladies, taking them to nice dinners, buying them gifts, like jewelry and shoes... (and I'm not talking Loubitans. I'm talking something - anything to show appreciation.)

So he comes home to his wife, expects her to suck his dick joyfully, and he hasn't gifted her in any way - he says "I haven't gifted you, because I love you. Our relationship isn't about finances, or gifts, or spoiling. I only spend that money on the ladies I DON'T care about, who give me "acquaintance pussy" that's meaningless. Don't you understand honey? Why are you sad? "

Same goes for a relationship where he's dishing out more to other women while he's taking me away from my ability to made bread and butter - or even a comfortable lifestyle - via the means we enjoy.

You can't say "You're a hooker - that doesn't count." Oh, but it does.  
 

-- Modified on 4/10/2016 5:48:53 PM

... I am not trying to take her away from others, or to negatively impact her lifestyle.  That would be out of line.  Thanks for your replies here.  

BTW, Audis would suit you better than Mercedes, which are more suited to stodgy types .

I have a a traditional marriage and my wife has never had to work. The money I spend here is purely discretionary and does not crimp the upper middle class lifestyle my wife enjoys.

Your "job" is to provide the best BCD sexual experience you can for your clients. I have never believed in crossing the line into paid dinner dates, overnights etc. I don't ask for OTC time even though it's occasionally offered.

If people would stop crossing over into areas beyond paid BCD time this would not be an issue. It takes TWO to cross that line.

or Audi. I hope you mean Mercedes lol

Either way, I gave up on that useless dream a long time ago when I decided to stick with the paid off piece of shit, as most people really don't care what you drive lol!

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There is a whole wide world out there that you don't know exists. There is a market for extended dates, (I definitely know this, and I also know the market is very small, as it becomes smaller as people look for markets within markets.)

The point of everything that I said, (which you cannot even see when a woman agrees with you, since you have been so burned by something,) the whole POINT of everything I have said is that this OP's relationship evolved into a real relationship (except the sex part.) He's paying her flight and expenses (I think) and she is just hanging out with him. What is wrong with him surprising her with DISCRETIONAL gifts? And if he is paying a REQUIRED fee to others, at least buy her some fucking shoes! (lol)

HE is starting to feel guilty, or starting to question if HE is doing the right thing. So really, this thread has to do with him. HE started this relationship in a P4P, so now HE is confused. Quite honestly, the woman went a little wrong by not communicating her reasons, and not setting any boundaries or communicating expectations. It is a sensitive thing, because the dynamics changed with absolutely no communication.

It seems she has left him scrambling for air here. (This is as per his OP, we don't know the entire dialogue here).  

HE has a couple of choices. WORK HARD for a relationship, (which takes some serious time,) or work a little, and keep buying her shit. This is more for his ease of mind, than for her. But in the relationship, it will benefit her, because he is setting a boundary to protect his own mind. (At least that is what I would feel it is for myself if I were him, to be more clear.)

He doesn't have to question if he's doing anything right or wrong, and he still saves a shit ton of money in the process.

And yes, there are two sides - if HE is worried that SHE is going to turn sour after a while, then just keep it simple and pay her, or at least buy her a thing or two if she won't let him pay her. If he keeps it up, his fantasy may last a lot longer.

As far as whether all of this is love or fantasy, there really isn't a whole lot of REAL in this world, whether pay for play or conventional dating. I've seen a hella lot more real doing P4P than I have anywhere else. The world is plastic, as it should be. No one deserves our whole story, because every single person we come across won't be able to relate... that causes controversy. We lie about what we even know about love to each other so as not to come across sensitive, broken, too nice, whatever.

So we're all talking to each other being "right", but in essence, each one of us needs to take what anyone - even professors and pastors, and even books - says to us, and analyze it - and choose for ourselves what is and isn't.  

Usually what "is" to the majority is what said by the best debater, or the most experienced. But really, just going down this one thread, there are a million different "it's definitely this way or that" outlooks. We've all lived different lives, and who knows if half of this dialogue is hidden agendas, or real thoughts and beliefs... or simply where each one of us is at NOW and not tomorrow.

I guarantee many of our answers will be from a completely different standpoint in six months, if we were asked the same question. We can't even keep the same beliefs as we evolve. unless we hang around the same like- minded group day in and day out.

So I'll agree to disagree, because what is right for you may not be right for me. And vice versa.
 

-- Modified on 4/10/2016 6:44:19 PM

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She better be good to you ! 😝

Courtney Posted:

There is a whole wide world out there that you don't know exists. There is a market for extended dates, (I definitely know this, and I also know the market is very small, as it becomes smaller as people look for markets within markets.)  
   
 The point of everything that I said, (which you cannot even see when a woman agrees with you, since you have been so burned by something,) the whole POINT of everything I have said is that this OP's relationship evolved into a real relationship (except the sex part.) He's paying her flight and expenses (I think) and she is just hanging out with him. What is wrong with him surprising her with DISCRETIONAL gifts? And if he is paying a REQUIRED fee to others, at least buy her some fucking shoes! (lol)  
   
 HE is starting to feel guilty, or starting to question if HE is doing the right thing. So really, this thread has to do with him. HE started this relationship in a P4P, so now HE is confused. Quite honestly, the woman went a little wrong by not communicating her reasons, and not setting any boundaries or communicating expectations. It is a sensitive thing, because the dynamics changed with absolutely no communication.  
   
 It seems she has left him scrambling for air here. (This is as per his OP, we don't know the entire dialogue here).  
   
 HE has a couple of choices. WORK HARD for a relationship, (which takes some serious time,) or work a little, and keep buying her shit. This is more for his ease of mind, than for her. But in the relationship, it will benefit her, because he is setting a boundary to protect his own mind. (At least that is what I would feel it is for myself if I were him, to be more clear.)  
   
 He doesn't have to question if he's doing anything right or wrong, and he still saves a shit ton of money in the process.  
   
 And yes, there are two sides - if HE is worried that SHE is going to turn sour after a while, then just keep it simple and pay her, or at least buy her a thing or two if she won't let him pay her. If he keeps it up, his fantasy may last a lot longer.  
   
 As far as whether all of this is love or fantasy, there really isn't a whole lot of REAL in this world, whether pay for play or conventional dating. I've seen a hella lot more real doing P4P than I have anywhere else. The world is plastic, as it should be. No one deserves our whole story, because every single person we come across won't be able to relate... that causes controversy. We lie about what we even know about love to each other so as not to come across sensitive, broken, too nice, whatever.  
   
 So we're all talking to each other being "right", but in essence, each one of us needs to take what anyone - even professors and pastors, and even books - says to us, and analyze it - and choose for ourselves what is and isn't.  
   
 Usually what "is" to the majority is what said by the best debater, or the most experienced. But really, just going down this one thread, there are a million different "it's definitely this way or that" outlooks. We've all lived different lives, and who knows if half of this dialogue is hidden agendas, or real thoughts and beliefs... or simply where each one of us is at NOW and not tomorrow.  
   
 I guarantee many of our answers will be from a completely different standpoint in six months, if we were asked the same question. We can't even keep the same beliefs as we evolve. unless we hang around the same like- minded group day in and day out.  
   
 So I'll agree to disagree, because what is right for you may not be right for me. And vice versa.  
   
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I saw the business behind the scenes over 25 years ago when I did business at the MBOT. I am well aware there is a small market for dinner dates, overnights, vacations etc. It exists because of loneliness and social ineptitude. As far as the OP goes, his situation seems a bit nebulous to me.

When people get involved beyond BCD it never ends well. This is PLAY-4-PAY. It's just like a stage play. When the show's over and the final curtain goes down the players go their separate ways.  

The show is being extended into the real lives of the players in this case. That violates the rules of engagement.  

 

   

-- Modified on 4/10/2016 7:35:34 PM

She is but sometimes she can be cunty   That is ok, you know all that shit about the "weaker" sex, right?   Truthfully, any guy who gets to know this lady is one lucky SOB.  I would tell you who she is but it is a top secret.  You are in Chicago, right?    I would go there but I hear it is windy, I would hate to mess up my hair.

There are no rules of engagement here, except what people drum up on chat boards. Even then, no one can agree - so there are no rules.  

There are tons of different types of "sugar babies". If someone has a need, and it can be fulfilled by a particular market of women, then they should go get what they want.

I guess you are talking about Hookers, and I am talking about "Courtesans". I thought there was no such thing as a "Courtesan", but - I guess there is. Either way, part of it is P4P, and part of it is entertainment, and part of it (most of it for many men) is attention from a woman.

I just read up on the "Man Cold". I've taken care of a couple of men in my life who came down with the flu. These guys were tough mother fuckers. But the second they got sick, they turned into little tiny babies who needed their mommy. I loved it, because it's adorable to see someone who doesn't show their emotions just let it all go haywire when they have a cold. lol!

Bill Burr talks about how men have to act on a day to day basis.. You toughies have a soft spot in there - and if you're not getting any nurturing elsewhere (maybe you are, but some aren't,) then it comes out here at times.

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Who the fuck is the weaker sex?! LOL! (I think both sexes have different weaknesses, by the way)....

If you ever do brave the trip, I bet I could mess your hair up worse than the wind out here!  

P.S. If she's cunty, then just buy her flowers, chocolates, (don't eat it all though, she needs some too,) and then have sex with her. Make up sex can be awesome, and it can also get kind of rough. Especially if tequila is involved.  

(Squeeze her hips next time and spank her. She'll like that.)

Who is in the better spot?  I am, because my enjoyment bandwidth is greater than yours.  Just like if my rules of engagement are broader than yours.  Until recently, I had the same BCD rules of engagement as you.  Now that I have selectively moves past that rule, I am having a better time.  I agree with Courtney - there are no standard rules of engagement that everyone in this world is supposed to play by.  Not sure why you think your rules should be the same as mine.

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Whomever decided they wanted to be god and overwrite the laws of nature has a serious god complex.

I mean, sure - be smart about it, and be realistic as to not get burned - but our bodies are naturally programmed to respond in certain ways to stimulants of all sorts, bringing feelings and other stuff. It all comes from the mind.

We have to consider some people's bodies and minds are programmed a different way, and they are unable to handle certain things, so they just shut it off. That's totally understandable - but to make "rules" that go completely against how the human body and mind work is a little over the top.

-- Modified on 4/11/2016 12:39:05 AM

Oh, Pleeeze. You started out as an hourly girl at what 250? in North Carolina. You were obviously trained by another girl (she completely lied about her age and cultural /educational background) who put down the hourly guys as just wanting "acrobatic monkey sex" and would act as if the two hour guys were saints. It's called marketing!  

Yes, the mindset has a lot to do with it. Still, getting involved beyond the sexual BCD is a decision. I'm not making any "rules." I'm just calling out bullshit. The idea that being a so-called "courtesan" makes it possible to have these extended dates is ridiculous. It's about the money. It's so much easier to have one lonely guy a week at 1500 for a dinner date than to see 6 guys a week. Your market exists because some poor bastards have no social circle.

At the MBOT, I saw a guy fawn over some stripper/whore and spend 40K on her. The guy was not well off. Her and her boyfriend enjoyed the money and he was left out in the cold when she left the club and him with no words of farewell.

Over in a defunct group there were countless stories of guys who fell for their hooker and were beaten out of fairly large sums of money. When the girl would do a disappearing act we would ask them if he knew her real name. In most cases the answer was no or she gave a fake real name.  

Your "rules" are the same self serving marketing gimmicks the other girl used. "I need two hours to have chemistry." " I know my guys on a higher level than the hourly girls." And on and on. We both know the world runs on money.  

I'm not saying it always turns out bad the odds of it turning out well are remote.

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I was having a conversation about some of this with the lady I am fond off and she remarked that having sex with meaning behind it is fun but that it is also fun to have meaningless sex.   Her point was that I am lucky I get to do both which is exactly your point, you are enjoying a wider spectrum of experiences.    Do I disagree with others who may not want to operate this way?   No, not at all, it is their choice and we must all do what we are comfortable doing

Yes, this sounds familiar. Shit déjà vu. I did this  last summer. After seeing a lady about 10-12 times I asked her out for a walk at a local park, dinner at a restaurant, and gave her a couple of "appreciation and thank you gifts."

She knew and sensed my affinity, used it to her advantage, we scheduled more frequent appointments and when she was done with me threw me on the garbage pile and treated me like shit. Yes, I allowed this to happen with my naive belief that she truly enjoyed my company.  

Don't get too close unless she tells you, "I like you and want to see you beyond this hobby arrangement."

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