A lot of providers, clients, and other people engage in Fucked-Up Thinking (FUT).  I know I sure do.

FUT happens when a certain kind of thought or belief comes into your head automatically without your even questioning whether it is accurate of not.  You just take it at face value and accept it as true.  You don't look at the evidence.  Sometimes it's just a habit - you've had the thought a hundred times before, so now it just comes naturally.

But FUT can get people into trouble, because it can screw up their chances of getting what they want out of life.  It can screw up their relationships too, with family, friends, SO's.  Hey, it has mine.

I think the first step in stopping FUT from screwing up your life, whether you are a provider, client, or someone else, is to recognize it when you see it.  YOur can catch yourself and say "Wait a minute, that's FUT".  Maybe you won't decide right away that the belief is incorrect, but at least you know that it is FUT, and that it's not helping you.

Here are some examples of FUT in action:

Mind reading:  You assume that you know what people think without having enough real evidence of their thoughts.  For example: "He thinks I'm a loser".

Fortune telling:  You predict the future - that things will get worse or that there is danger ahead.  For example:  "I'll fail that test" or "She won't understand what I'm trying to say".

Catastrophizing:  You believe that what has happened or what will happen will be so bad and unbearable that you won't be able to stand it.  For example:  "It would be terrible if I failed at this".

Labeling: You assign global negative traits to yourself and others.  For example:  "I'm undesirable" or "He's a rotten person".

Discounting positives:  You claim that the positive accomplishments of you or others are trivial.  For example:  "That's what wives are supposed to do - so it doesn't count when she's nice to me" or Those successes were easy, so they don't count".

Negative filter:  You focus almost exclusively on the negatives and seldom notice the positives.  For example: "Look at all those people who don't like me".

Like I said, I do plenty of FUT myself.  But less than I used to.  Any other examples of FUT out here in the world of P4P (or other parts of life)?

Remember, it's the thinking that's fucked up,  not the person doing it.

Here's to getting what you want out of life, and fucking instead of FUTing.

And unfortunately, some of us do the FUT under the influence.

I think I have some 'splaining to do to some certain people....

Thank you. I was actually thinking about this very thing when I was walking my dogs just now, and you convinced me.

Gotta try and make it right, right?

Wish me luck....

You care to connect that to sex or the hobby in some manner? Psycho-educational babble!!!

but I'm a hard core behaviorist myself....

Nonetheless I am sure that many could benefit by consciousness raising with respect to their a prioris.

Problem is that the human brain is evolutionarily encoded to think in certain ways, which includes eight primary defects in cognition which can be mathematically tested and modeled....

or the works of Aaron Beck ? Both highly esteemed cognitive behaviorists. They'd be interested that you're using their techniques for hobbying---or maybe they'd sue for plagiarism----------LOL !

But how do you resolve FUT?

Are the issues truly "in the tissues"?  

Emotional Freedom Technique?  Hypnosis?  Regression Therapy?  What really works?

Let's face it. Cynicism is at epidemic levels in the hobby -- among both providers and hobbyists.

As one religious authority described it:

"People do not deliberately decide to become cynical, pessimistic, and blaming. Rather, these
attitudes result from experience, and are sustained because they serve useful purposes." (1)

Dr. Joyce Brothers described cynical attitudes back before I was born as "... a complicated inner defense." (2)

Cynicism is widely understood in psychology and psychiatry as a defense mechanism generated in response to negative experiences; the intent of which is to reduce the value of the desired object in order to avoid feelings of inadequacy, disappointment and rejection among others. (3)

So, in essence, people aren't born as cynics. They BECOME cynical in response to negative experiences.

Their cynicism remains because, as a religious authority explained: "Cynicism persists because it is validated ..."(4)

That is, they continue to have negative experiences that confirm their need for a defense.

So ... is cynicism good or bad?

In my opinion, it is bad. Especially when I find it in myself. It is bad because it creates a narrowed interpretive worldview that predisposes the worst assumptions about another's likely motives in the absence of evidence.

This creates a "cycle of cynicism."

If I expect someone to treat me badly; it is impossible for my behavior toward that person not to reflect that expectation. And this will, in turn, generate distrust in them.

How does it generate distrust? Because everyone understands projection to a degree. If I am treating someone like they cannot be trusted; even though they have done *nothing* to deserve such treatment; they will automatically see that as my projection of MY OWN untrustworthiness.

Now, that person will treat me as untrustworthy; and I will see that treatment as confirmation of my cynical attitude.

It's a nasty cycle that leads to misunderstanding.

Of course, this doesn't just happen to hobbyists -- it happens to providers too.

Nobody walks into the hobby without baggage of some sort. We have all been hurt and/or betrayed in various ways by others. We have all witnessed darkness of the human heart. And in the modern era; our adversarial systems of conflict resolution have created winner-take-all rather than win-win solutions that inspire firestorm tactics reminiscent of lifeboat ethics.

When a provider and hobbyist who have both had bad experiences and developed cynical defense mechanisms confront each other -- it seldom ends well because cynicism runs counter to positive assumptions. There is very little room for "benefit of the doubt."

And the hobby has one other aspect that is practically GUARANTEED to create cynicism in hobbyists: asymmetry.

In a study earlier this year, asymmetry is clearly identified as a factor predisposing a lack of trust or ability to give "benefit if the doubt."

An asymmetric trust situation is one in which one party is required to exhibit a substantial degree of trust up-front.

In the hobby, this is a given. Hobbyists give a provider everything she needs to UTTERLY DESTROY HIM up front; if that were her desire. In exchange, he gets a fake name and a hotmail address.

Such asymmetry severely predisposes cynicism to start with. (5)

It is THIS that drives the debates between hobbyists and providers regarding verification. The process is utterly asymmetric. While it is clear that verification is required for the provider's safety due to physical strength differentials; to the hobbyist who has never struck a woman in his life this seems overkill; and predisposes him to see the provider as dishonest.

I am not proposing a solution to this conundrum; only stating that it exists and will NOT go away because of wishful thinking.

When you combine asymmetry with the fact a great many hobbyists have negative experiences ranging from minor annoyances (NCNS) to major issues (comes home to find provider chatting with wife); and the way people react to and store bad news to develop cynicism by proxy -- don't be shocked to find some cynical hobbyists out there. Guys who will cancel at the drop of a hat, double book, etc.

(Similar stuff exists among providers. I once had a provider refuse to book me because she had dug up results from a tactical training group on the Internet. What did she think? That I was gonna SHOOT her? WTF! Of course, that made me view HER as an idiot who would have to pay me to fuck her. And likely not even then. See how these cycles get started?)

I am NOT saying such behaviors are justified. That's the point. That's why cynicism is a problem. It predisposes behaviors that are way disproportional to what is merited by the actual facts. Such behaviors should always be based on individual evaluation of merits. But cynicism is a *defense mechanism* and therefore cannot be expected to be rational.

So -- how do we break that cycle?

First: because cynicism continues because of renewed experiences that affirm the reason for the defense; each party should commit to being the very best provider/hobbyist possible for the other. In giving each other the most positive possible experience; if this happens enough, the cynicism will become untenable and be diminished.

Second: Take steps wherever SAFELY possible to reduce asymmetry. Remember, this is a matter of perception. It is HOW one is asked, the way it is justified and so forth that makes a difference. When a guy feels like he is viewed by default as an ax murderer; you may be starting out with a strike against you.

It is reasonably well-known that I am a proponent of safety and application of the golden rule in hobbying; so I am not suggesting a lack of safety.

Rather, what I am suggesting is that we DO have more control than we think over cynicism; and it can be diminished through good behavior, trying to give benefit of the doubt where doing so is not terribly risky, and reducing asymmetry wherever it can be done safely.




(1) Rockford Diocese, How Good People Become Cynical
(2) Dr. Joyce Brothers, Cynicism, An Inner Defense; Beaver Country Times, April 14, 1964
(3) Blaser, A. (1976) Confin Psychiatr. 1976;19(2):80-8. (Original in German)
(4) Rockford Diocese, How Good People Become Cynical
(5) Fetchenhauer D, Dunning D. (2010) Why so cynical?: asymmetric feedback underlies misguided skepticism regarding the trustworthiness of others. Psychol Sci. 2010 Feb 1;21(2):189-93.

and am certified in one of them.

Lemme tell ya, none of them work as well as a swift kick in the ass.

Unfortunately, that's illegal these days.

they ask him/her for his/her advice.

in my case my hobby difficulties result from the fact that it is really hard for me to be "appropriately cynical". i am so accustomed to being thought of as honorable and kind (although eccentric) in the "real world" that i am annoyed by the distrust and cynicism and inequality i find in the hobby.

i can handle a certain amount of distrust and cynicism (the market reinforces those) as long as it is not accompanied by inequality: my risks are somehow "less important" than the lady's.

so while i agree that unrealistic cynicism is dysfunctional and endemic in the hobby, my personal problem of unrealistic idealism is also dysfunctional and needs to be watched.

it is unrealistic for me to treat the companion of the day openly and as a human being and expect to be treated in a reciprocal manner. most providers are more cynical than i (it is a trait required for survival) and i need to be a little more patient at the amount of time needed to establish a degree of trust than is necessary in working relationships outside the hobby.

The idealism is an expectation that gets crushed by the asymmetry, creating cynicism as a defense.

Your statement that: "It is unrealistic for me to treat the companion of the day openly and as a human being and expect to be treated in a reciprocal manner." is an illustration of cynicism.

But that cynicism has been reinforced because your experiences have validated it.

How to assure experiences that won't reinforce it?

Aye, there's the rub.

But I think it is doable.

all of this fucking drama. Works for me.  The "hobby" is too damned much fun to get so intellectually / philosophically / psychologically involved in it.

On the very rare occasion that I see anyone with any regularity, it's gotta be very low drama.

The hobby is not "real life", and I do not let the concerns of real life intrude upon it. Else, what's the point?

but it's not a gimme - you've gotta work at it.

Fucking twit.

that one can very easily *think too much* when it comes to the hobby.

This is not an environment conducive to the clarity necessary to make judgments of "symmetry", "inequality" and etc.

Every employed person earns income because he / she is *useful* to someone. Every person who works for a living is under duress.

Providers strive to be useful to clients. Clients reward that usefulness in the same way that our employers reward us.

I do not need to evaluate the interrelational psychodynamics of providers any more than I need to do so with employers / employees.

And I really don't think that providers want us to try. That's what boundaries are for. The companion of the day usually does not want to be analyzed, does not want to "establish trust".

They want their privacy and their boundaries to be respected. They want to please us and be financially rewarded for doing so. Simple. Above all, providers want clients to remember that this is a fantasy and not to take it so bloody seriously.

Just my 2c. I realize we are all wired differently and that our approaches are different.

and current favorites do _not_ require unreasonable asymmetries.

so i am gravitating into a small group of repeatable ladies who:

1) do not obfuscate by speaking in "provider tense" to try to maximize profit

2) can clearly express preferences with the confidence that i'm not going to DNS them over trivia

And you know a lot more than I do in this field; which I respect a lot.

I believe that cynicism is problematic because it results in, essentially, nonexistent fucking. It lowers the threshold for which you will reject a provider, or vice-versa, dramatically.

If for no reason other than that, it should be considered a problem. LOL

But I think measures to reduce cynicism can coexist with boundaries.

and IMO keeping it simple is perfectly fine. but when things become complicated, simple solutions often fail.

the problem i find is when providers over think what to say. my current favorites don't. they seem comfortable telling me their preferences and confident enough in their value to me that i am not going to get bent out of shape over that.

thank Zeus and Hera for their sanity!

as an employer, or a member of any personal or business relationship, i am responsible for my half of what goes on and so must consider how what i do or do not do affects the other. objectifying someone as an employee as not worthy of more consideration not conscionable to me. objectification of me as an ATM is not acceptable.

if the companion of the day does not weant to "establish trust" then screening is absurd. if there is not trust there is no basis for even a purely business relationship.

and i've recently discovered that i don't need any fantasy at all. there is NO fantasy with current favorites. yet the stress reduction is starting to _precede_ visits that i anticipate will go well.

as to the other points: i never take anything seriously without an invitation, i always make additional gestures of reward for overtimes.

respect of privacy and boundaries needs to be 2 way. if there is an asymmetry there, it is certainly not a matter of overthinking!

Matt belongs to the human race...you don't, fucking twit.

Yeah, I gotta lot of work to do.

Mikey fucks up alot. But this won't do...

a super hot Latina, if he was horny, says:

"Re: hhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm  

That all depends. Are you?"

Any guy with balls would have replied: Damn straight!

Go look in the mirror Dr. Phil Wannabe!

I've fallen for a provider story.  There's your connection.
Doc

just go to video-chat.LOL

Isn't "Fucking Twit" an example of labeling?  That's FUT.

intended to be taken as a fantasy.

I don't know about you but I *like* the fact taht p4p does not obligate me to participate in relationship dynamics. '

I have them every day of my life, and they far outweigh the negative thoughts. You must be one unhappy soul.

It sounds as though you'd complain if they hung you with a new rope, not because of the hanging, but the fact that an old rope would have done the job just fine. If you look for the negative, you'll most certainly find it. How sad.

This cannot be said for the plagiarized babble from the OP.

One can't have a non relationship unless it's with someone you've never communicated with at all.

I've grown impatient with pseudo romance. It does not appeal.

it's not what they do. That is the 'fantasy' bit. If they think you want it too real they will cut you off.

Thankfully I'm wired in such a way that I have little patience for romance unless it is with someone I very deeply care about. Else I want it simple, straight up, fun, light, uncomplicated. Not the barest pretense necessary.

I'm juggling two romantic interests right now myself. Not terribly well lol. Both will probably crash and burn. And perhaps I'll be happier for it.....

That is what I meant by speaking in "provider" tense. In any case I am not looking for romance so there is no problem here. I like my solitude.

I am sure that some providers who feel that a client wants it too real will cut the relationship off.

My only experience with being cut off was rather different. There were numerous risk management asymmetries. Not wanting to play the role of a serf to a princess, I expressed the need to decrease frequency. That precipitated the cut off.

We are now arguing on the opposite sides of a previous argument.

A year (or two?) ago I was arguing all for playful illusion as a necessary component of the experience. You were arguing that it had to be kept real: it's all about the envelope.

Now I am all about it being "real" and you are arguing for "illusion".

I draw no conclusions. I just note it.

I am arguing that the hobby is a nice place to visit, but nobody gets to live there. It is a fantasy.

In "real" life, sex comes with obligations. I prefer to limit mine do properly stuffing the envelope.

I do know what you mean about primadonna providers though - the type that are not happy if they cannot suck emotion and devotion out of you.

They are to be avoided at all costs... or just plain fucked while keeping adequate sporting distance lol....

it is what it is.

i AM very strict about the fact that the relationships i find in the hobby must somehow spill over and help me be more functional in real life in order to be maintained.

if the hobby is not life enhancing in general for me, i would have absolutely no use for it.

i will confess that it is easy to suck some emotion out of me IF the provider is "good for me". there are several who are and i can't help liking them for that. i'm a repeater and if you are good for me (as current favorites are) i'll like you. but it stops there.

i draw the line at devotion. i will not act devotedly toward one who is not devoted. that flavor of primadonna is going to be profoundly disappointed in me as a client.

my emotions are ultimately subject to my intellect and my insistence on equality.

with current favorites it is _just_ as it is. i will dare to pass along a quote tha tmade a profound impression: "i want to make sure that you get what is good for you, not just some GFE bull."

i value their integrity and restraint. there is a profound difference between a perfect courtesan and a vampire. one is concerned with providing value for fair compensation and the other is simply concerned with relentlessly extracting a maximum profit.

but i need not be concerned much. karma works, sooner or later. but it works inevitably and without fail.