thank God for providers!..I want to know if other attractive married men..like myself..find it almost impossible to hook up..either through the internet(no pics being married ) or through life in general..time schedules with wife conflict..and opportunities just do not seem to arise.. would not do anything to jeopardize my job..on the other hand..are affairs worth the aggravation ..cheating..and time.. and lying to spouse to be in??..whereas you pay(financial burden)for a provider..have a good time..and go back to wife..no one is hurt..suggestions and life experiences please..

48 yrs of compliments..hope they weren't all lies(LOL)

There is amazingly little difference.

Everyone I know who has been in/is in an affair has a financial implication of some type.

For me a lady becomes a “regular” provider because I enjoy being with her; there is much to like about her outside of the bedroom.

Unless a guy is into the escort of the day revolving door (not putting it down, it just isn’t for me) they are very similar.

I tend to agree with you.  I tried to hook up thru AFF and it was an incredible hassle.  All the profile BS and emails containing supposed good matches that were mostly Standard Member women who you couldn't communicate with unless you paid an additional fee.  
The two women I did see were certainly not up to par emotionally.  Both had substantial baggage from being in bad marriages.  I don't really have the time for that so choosing a provider wisely is the way to go for now.  At least until I want to get involved again seriously.

Clearly sex is a major factor in both but I think affairs and visits to providers give the guy different things.

I would think an affair has much more emotional involvement that a date with a provider.  Providers and clients can of course become close emotionally but it's not generally the original basis for their meetings.

Personally, if a partner of mine was going to stray I'd be a lot less hurt if he was having great sex with a provider than I would be if he was deeply emotionally involved with, say, a colleague even if they never so much as kissed.

Call me predjudiced, but I have far more respect for a man who sees providers than I do a man who has extramarital affairs.

After all, a provider brings no expectations to the encounters. We're receiving compensation for our time, you're receiving good company, and all is fair and balanced.

A woman engaging in an affair with a married man almost inevitably expects something more - that he'll leave his wife, that their affair will progress, that they are in love.

An SP isn't going to phone your wife and tell her about your cheating ways, while stridently insisting that they're in love. A scorned woman who's been misled in an affair just might.

An affair is referred to as 'cheating', and imo it's both of the women involved who are usually misled and lied to.

An escort knows where she stands, and is happy with that standing. The last thing we want you to do is to leave your wife, since married men inevitably make better clients. A woman in love and involved with a married man is rarely happy to spend the rest of her life relegated to booty call status.

Morgan

all you said is very true..unless..it is a married woman ..that does not want to leave her husband and wants a little extra 'no strings'on the side..those women are far and few...except on the ashley madison site..which as I mentioned..I believe is a scam site for married/attached men..

After many years of monogamy(=monotony)I gave some thought to an affair but ruled it out since most affairs are sooner or later discovered, especially if it's in your own neighborhood.I opted for a professional affair with a provider in a neighboring state which is imo a much safer bet not to mention the other benefits.....

So how does a married man (which 80% of the men I see are married) determine that seeing a provider(s) does not constitute as an affair?  You are still having sex with another woman who is NOT your wife.  

I have been seeing a hobbyist for over 2 years now.  He is still married, I still work and yes, even though I am a provider, I am still human and  do date outside the hobby.  Lately, he has been becoming jealous, kinda of territorial which really irks me, due to the fact, he is STILL married.  If I wanted that...I wouldnt be in the bizz or I'd be married myself.

...either way my balls would be well history.

But I'm an old "us only forever" romantic so perhaps I attract similar chicks. Anyway, I don't want to get into another "degrees of cheating" argument. It's boring after the 69th time.

...I think what you meant to say is that "no one is hurt as long as your wife is ignorant of your philandering". Or words to that effect.

If you want my life experience on this subject then I'll tell you. My father messed it up (EOM).

I too chose the provider route.  After my SO dicided that she did not want to do "that" any more i was left with Rosey Palm or nothing.

I looked for an affair and I think a couple were possible but it would have been very hard on the family.

A provider is no strings and less chance of a problem.  I am not in it for variety, but rather for some human contact.

If my wife would change her mind I would be out of here in a heartbeat.

...anybody in any doubt should approach a typical wife and ask her whether she she sees it as OK for her husband to secretly pay prostitutes.

I suspect most wifes would not.

As a hobbyiest myself I am not against promiscuity but I am against deceit. If there is openess between partners on this issue, then no problem.

But of course, there usually is not. It is usually just one sided lies.

...you realise that seeing providers and being genuinely seriously involved are mutually exclusive. That is an obvious self apparent point to the majority of the population, but apparently not on boards like this. The only exception is an open relationship where there is consent from both sides.

It's always the innocent parties like the children that I worry about. It's why I never bothered having any. I can mess around to my heart's content with an easy conscience. Of course, not everybody has a conscience where money and/or sex is concerned.

If you're an old "us only forever" romantic, then the hobby is a strange place to be, even if you are not married.  

I think that "till death due you part" was poetry written at a time when people expected to live 30 years.  Like a lot of sweet, archaic poetry, it's now quasi-religious dogma.  

Yes, finding out about cheating of any sort would upset most women terribly.  But tell me, with a provider, what have they been deprived of?  Really?  If her or the kids weren't being fed or clothed, I could understand it.  Otherwise, how much of her emotional agitation is over something real?  

A lot of married guys here have said that their spouse has unilaterally deprived them of intimacy for years.  There are excuses for that, but for many, there is no good reason.  She just changes terms mid-matrimony.  Why?  Because she can.  

So, short of calling for divorce, the "nuclear option," what can guys do?  I think providers save many more marriages than they wreck.  

Like you, I'm also not involved with anybody I'd have to deceive.  Most women, however, fed with society's dogma, live with **serious** misconceptions and intolerances about male sexuality.  Entire marriages with them, if they are to last "forever," becomes a game of shoring up their illusions.  For some guys, they have enough of this.

I'm going to hobby till the right woman tells me to stop.  I much rather she join in, but the possibilities for that are not good.  I don't intend to deceive her at the beginning, middle or end of the relationship.

The hobby is not a strange place for me to be. When I decide the time is right then I will ditch it. I won't play in two opposite fields simultaneously with the kids copping the fall out.

Providers do not save more marriages than they wreck. They just provide an option for married guys to seek pleasure, comfort or temporary succour. But ask any marriage guidance counsellor and they will not advise seeing prostitutes secretly as a way of improving a marriage. Of course not, that is ridiculous.

Don't tell me about male sexuality. People always blame nature as an easy excuse for their problems.
As I've said you can indulge yourself with numerous women to your hearts content if that is your wont (I do as a single man). Just don't lie to your wife that you are in an exclusive relationship.

One of the problems of our society is that lies, deceit and selfishness are just par for the course for too many people.

You just need to face the state of your marriage honestly and take the appropriate steps. Guidance, seperation or a new start. Honest is a word that too many people don't understand. Don't blame women and society's dogma because some guys like sticking it up branded crumpet for fun.

Even if it is the woman's fault that can be faced without the need for infidelity. You just need the balls to take hard decisions.

...you said, "But tell me, with a provider, what have they been deprived of?  Really?  If her or the kids weren't being fed or clothed, I could understand it.  Otherwise, how much of her emotional agitation is over something real?"

If you really believe that then you do not have the first understanding of women. Exclusivity is of absolute importance to many of them after marriage. Is that not completely obvious?

I'd go to the weatherman for marriage advice first.  Marriage counselors are missing something important.  

Can that be faced?  You used the fact that it would upset the wife as the final argument there.  So, how can it be faced?  

Do you really hobby without deceiving anybody?  Does your job know that you pay women for sex?  I know, it's none of their business.  Just the way a lot of guys would justify not telling their wives.  

However, it is all a matter of your own boundaries.  What I can't get is complaining that other people's boundaries don't quite match yours.  For me, it's a matter between the the couple.  My personal ethic?  Don't wreck a formalized marriage, especially one with children.  I don't see providers as doing that.  Damn the marriage counselors.

No, I don't make the argument based on blaming women in general.  As for society-- society is insane.

ordinary people like us do not exercise personal responsibility.

Until I make a vow of marriage I can go and do what I want without trouble or worry about deceiving anybody. No issue there.

You ask how can it be faced? I don't know but I am sure it is not through infidelity with prostitutes.

-- Modified on 4/10/2006 1:48:36 PM

Catatonic loves to rub others' noses in their moral quandaries.  It's OK- I am sure he deals with his own demons.

Personally- I see this as a service- like many others.  I get massages from Masseuses who occasionally offer other services.  To me that is better than an emotional relationship- that WOULD feel like Cheating!

BTW-OT-  anybody like Big Love?

...usually the stock line is that providers help to save marriages because they are not emotionally involved in what they provide and by implication somehow help husbands to be better at their role. Something to do with non-emotional paid sex not being cheating apparently. I have read that view a thousand times but have still to quite grasp where the merit is.

You want to be careful. You'll never get to be a member of the hookers sorority club. Watch it, you'll be sleepin with the fishes before long.

More seriously, I admire your honesty and candour.

...I like to express an opinion. If my opinion does not coincide with the majority then that is too bad. I understand that different people have different circumstances to face. But there must be some absolutes and a line drawn, otherwise absolutely anything is justifiable.

I hate liars, but don't see that as a problem.

with shared custody of my kids, finding time is at best difficult, the finances usually take care of themselves... the issue is time.  YOu can ask one provider - I have scheduled with her over a month in advance just to have the time....

Oh, and there is always the superhero stuff that everyone bothers me with! lol

If you are doing something and can't tell your wife or SO about it, that is by definition cheating, but I don't see her being judgemental about it, it just is what it is.

What steams her up is the hypocritcal postition her client takes vis a vis her seeing people socialy.  He is the pot calling the kettle black.

It's obviously the usual way of doing things, if that's what you mean by self-apparent. That doesn't make it a moral imperative.  Many women break it themselves, because monogamy is always a burden better imposed on your partner.  

When fatherhood couldn't be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, it made sense.  Our emotions evolved at a time when that wasn't true.  "We've always done it that way," is never a good guidance for a moral code.  

Monogamy in this society is seldom about love, it's seldom about morality either.  It's more about preventing jealousy.  Now, if you choose to be monogamous, and raise children (as it is the best environment to raise children), this is very important.  Now, that's the moral imperative.  

Given that, it is far better and less deceptive to see a tryster (my word for provider) than a mistress.  The latter, he will certainly betray somebody, and runs a danger of betraying his family.  With the former, it's better than jacking off, and his wife is bound to be distressed by that too in this culture.  

...you missed my irony.

It is refreshing to read a provider with such candid views on a board such as this.

...Nobody is forced into a long term monogamous relationship by society's mores. You can stay single and play the field to your heart's content. I do.

People choose to enter it, then unilaterally decide to cheat on their spouse, and of course women do the same. I'll wager any money that you want that deceit and infidelity is not the appropriate method of improving a family's lot.

If you think a guy is not betraying his family by seeing trysters then you should ask the wife and kids, because inevitably they will end up paying the bill.

you don't need the male qualifier.

that I believe there is a strong case for staying in a passionless marriage for the children's sake, and doing what you need to do to stay sane in the meantime, provided there is no abuse in the marriage.  There's something to be said for selflessness in that regard.

about each other. I *AM* fascinated by the latest turn of events in which Mr. Big is having an affair with wife #1.

...if it can, then you can be certain that it will be in a fractional minority of cases.

I guess that you need to know the specifics of a case before coming to a worthwhile judgement on that.

As a general rule of thumb though, cheating is not advised. Usually ends in tears.

I was enjoying your post, as I often do, until I got to "Now, if you choose to be monogamous, and raise children (as it is the best environment to raise children), this is very important." Why in God's name would someone who seems reasonably enlightened say that monogamy is the best way to raise children? I'm not saying parade men or women thru the living room in bondage wear with ball gags, but seriously... WTF?

you can't say that all affairs/cheating/hobbyiing will be found out inevitably. There's just no way to even suss out a hint of a statistic on that one.

unfortunately very few people are even self-aware enough, let alone evolved enough, to see it in themselves.

-- Modified on 4/11/2006 12:12:17 AM

...infidelity is frequently cited as a cause of marriage breakdown in America today. I read somewhere that 60% of husbands and 40% of wives cheat at some point in marriage. Obviously there is no absolute relaible statistic.

I was using hyperbole for effect, but I think people understand the point that infidelity can be the death knell for a marriage and screw up the kids. I doubt few would see infidelity as anything other than a highly negative thing, when it comes out into the open and has to be dealt with.

I actually think that infidelity would be more a symptom vs a cause of dissolution. Meaning the dissolution is already occuring when the offense occurs, to whatever degree. I also think that were the couple truly deeply in love, an infidelity would not in fact dissolve the union. They'd figure out how to make it work if they really loved each other.

I suppose. But, do you control your urge to judge, or do you just judge?

Well it is not 10AM yet here in London so I'm bright and bushy ...

...It really depends on the circumstance whether infidelity is symptom or cause. But does it really matter a great deal either way? What matters is the effect it will have when it comes out into the open. To a marriage already in trouble it could be a killer.

If two people are genuinely in love, and I mean genuinely, then I don't understand why one would choose to have an affair. I understand that people can get lost and carried away with passion, desire or lust but if you are truly genuinely in love with your SO then I suspect you would find a way to overcome that.

I am talking about people in supposedly monogamous relationships. That is not the only model, nor necessarily the best.

You go to bed, I'm going to do some work before I get sacked

1. because I saw the effect on my family from my father's infidelity.

and

2. when I was at college I cheated on someone with almost disastrous effects.

I am not sensitive about the subject but I have learnt my lesson and somebody does need to state the other side of this debate. Otherwise it is worthless.

A guy who obvious would have no trouble getting many girls, when interviewed about the Heidi Fleisch et al entanglement, "I paid the girls not to come but to leave". No strings attached, that's the attraction and what differentiates a provider from an affair.  

I'm just trying to present to you some things you may not have thought about.

and an "oops, I got drunk, fell down, and my dick fell into that attractive woman's naked orifice." If you are genuinely in love, the former may in fact be unlikely, but the latter unfortunately just may happen sometime. Premeditation... To what degree does it color the picture seems to be the question at hand.

I went through a bunch of affairs in my 30's, & they wore me out. Besides the emotional drain, add the expenses - birthday & Christmas gifts, discreet restaurants & motels, etc. I switched to providers in my 40's - my physical & mental health is better, & I'm still way ahead in dollars & cents.

...I could have accidently had sex with someone else. To me one of the key tenets of love is that you aren't interested in anybody else period, drunk or not.

People clearly have different interpretations and views on relationships and marriage. Whatever the case, for me it all comes back to the same thing. Openness, honesty and consent. Without that you are not really married in it's true sense, you are just legally married.

...but from a spousal perspective it is all likely to be seen as cheating regardless. If you are in a supposed monogamous and exclusive relationship that is. Either way, I doubt most wives would be best pleased if they found out.

p.s. that quote in it's various forms has been around for years and attributed to many different people. Who actually said it first?
1-3 favourite Errol Flynn

Response to post made by Morgan regarding a scorned lover vs provider:

 "A woman engaging in an affair with a married man almost inevitably expects something more - that he'll leave his wife, that their affair will progress, that they are in love.

An SP isn't going to phone your wife and tell her about your cheating ways, while stridently insisting that they're in love. A scorned woman who's been misled in an affair just might."


I have known more providers who HAVE contacted their client's wife, business and freinds when the client decided to "call it quits" from seeing the provider because she got too deeply involved and yes, wanted him to leave his wife because he always told her "she was the one he loved" blah blah.  Hell, I know of one who publicly outed her client on THIS board as well as several others.

She worked as usual and when she found out "HE" saw other providers, she would go into a jealous rage, call and verbally abuse the women he saw, threaten them and him as well,which caused him excessive grief which in turn led to decision to call if off.

As an "escort" did she cross the line??  Hell yes.  As an "escort" she had no right to do what she did and in the end ruined his marriage and lost him too, which in my opinion, she got what she deserved.

Ive known several non-providers who were and are involved with married men who has never done anthing like that.  Not saying it wont happen, but its more prevalent in the "escorts" than non escorts.

but that is a moot point.... well not quite, how do I know she cheated on me?  she had a baby with the dude.  There is more, but the issue is are these mutually exclusive, in my marriage, to me they were.  Therefore no matter that WE did not have sex, I felt obliged to not have sex, heck - I didn't even go to stripclubs while married.  I took the wedding vows seriously - but a lot of good that did.  With respect to kids, that was not even a factor, although we had two kids... but cheating was between me - and her.  

For those who have never married, the dynamics in a marriage are very hard to explain, in a bad marriage, impossible.  What I did, in a failing marriage was to believe that one morning I would wake up, and everything would be OK.  Failing marriages need help, any help.  I failed to act.  While I do not believe that a provider is a marriage counselor, perhaps had I gone to the "Right" one she would have told me - "work on your marriage"!  what a thought, don't know.  

But for me, for right now, hobbying fills my basic needs.... no more, no less.

and the follow up "Until I make a vow of marriage"  presuming that you will not hobby or cheat in any way on your wife....  you just do not know... and cannot know.  as I said in a post, the dynamics of a marriage are hard to explain....  while I was faithful, in the end it did not matter.  I neither advocate infidelity in a marriage nor do I condem it.  I would think that were I to marry again, I would not cheat - with anyone, but then again, I am not in a marriage now....

What I do know, is that infidelity hurts, take it from one who was hurt.  Feels awful and changes some of your views of yourself - and your relationships.  no questions.  and I would not wish to hurt anyone that badly.  it would be bad Karma and I kinda do believe in that, and I think that my bad marriage was my payback for something else I did in my life....   It is now paid in full - and I am moving forward, so I would never wish to go back to that!    

-- Modified on 4/11/2006 7:26:23 AM

-- Modified on 4/11/2006 7:28:02 AM

is to become the SO of a provider.  If you can put up with that, you've got a lot of problems licked.

Do any of us gain the onus of being a liar when we fail to do that?  You may think that only affects  the person making the resolution, but think again.  Heart disease, lung cancer and diabetes always affect the whole immediate family: financially and emotionally.  Let's not even discuss alcohol.  Resolutions to lose weight, quit drinking or smoking do create expectations in the family.  

I'm not writing about those who get into monogamy with the idea that they are going to cross their partners.  In my experience reading posts here,  that does not describe the typical married hobbiest.  All who answered threads with that question have said they never expected they would cheat.      

I'm also not talking about those where both partners agree to an open relationship under some terms.  You seem to put all of them in the same category of liars.  You make quite a jump in saying that since total monogamy is the usual way of doing it, those who don't are guilty of lying.  

Emotions act on us and compel us.  It's impossible to judge the emotional pressures you are going to feel 10, 20, 30 years after you make a vow.  To be realistic, a couple should renew their vows periodically, or decide to part ways.    

Plus, I do think society expects and promotes monogamy-- perhaps after an unsettled youth, but it does.  Afterward, you get into the "happily ever after" part.  I disagree with you, I think it leads to people being forced into a long-term monogamous relationship, just because they don't see alternatives, and they all have sexual needs to address.

As for the family paying the bill, I would wager that sexual frustration from enforced monogamy many times gets displaced and taken out on one's spouse and the children. That's my hypothesis.

Just wanted to chime in with my 2 cents.  I feel your pain, Man.  For the first time since our 1 year old was born (today is his B-day) my wife and I went away to Virgina for a wedding. I was thinking it would be sexual, at least in part. My wife advised me on the way down that she is no longer interested in sex.  I was devistated.  I totally feel your pain both in the nether regions and in the wallet.  I don't think I'm that bad looking of a guy, but lies & extramarital affairs just don't cut it.  I wonder if divorce is a viable answer?

This is what I mean:  I have heard women, married and unmarried, scoff at the idea that sex is even important to guys, or I'll put it like this, that it *should* be important to guys.  They seem to approach it as a bad habit that they have to break their man of.  Like potty training him.  They apparently never enjoyed sex themselves, and thought that was the right way to be.  Usually, these were religious women, but I've seen atheists who are equally as intolerant and arrogantly ignorant of male sexuality.  

I dated a woman who found it unforgivable that I would find any other woman attractive.  I dated another for a time who resented the idea that I would find *her* breasts attractive.  She was jealous of her own breasts!  

Experiences like this are why I find women who love sex to be irresistably attractive.  I immediately feel free from those attitudes.

-- Modified on 4/11/2006 10:15:17 AM

Monogamy and polygamy both have their different advantages and disadvantages.  Monogamy does provide a stable environment for raising children, moreso than forms of polygamy.  Practiced too strictly, though, and I've said that the frustrations from it can be taken out on them.  

It can be done well with polygamy, I think, but it is more challenging.  Provider/Milfs do best with it, I think, because they run polygamy as a business and get an income from it.  Other polyandrous women don't have that advantage.  Securing resources for their children may be difficult.  

Securing commitment of time from the other parent could be a problem for both.  You have to admit that monogamy keeps the responsibilities simpler.  It still doesn't mean that people keep their responsibilities better.


-- Modified on 4/11/2006 1:13:18 PM

I think society would still be insane-- except more good people would be imprisoned.  Try to be personally responsible, and you get punished more strictly than the one who isn't.

I realized that infidelity is equated with sex, but there is more to it than that.  It isn't usually just sex that would bother a wife, it is the emotions she imagined that had to be involved with the other woman, or the emotions you claimed to have with herself are brought under question.  People use sex to create bonds.  Either she thinks you had to be emotionally involved with the other woman (more likely with a mistress than a tryster), or she thinks you weren't involved enough in herself to begin with.

However, practically speaking, trying to disentangle that in rational discussion after being caught would be almost impossible.

but how many married guys does the typical tryster see?  From what I understand, it is a very high percentage of their clientele.  The vast majority of married men don't suffer the unethical treatment you describe.  The vast majority of trysters I know of take pride that they won't treat clients like that.

Human beings use sex to create bonds.  Sex touches on every human emotion that there is.  If this weren't true, the trysters job would be easy.  They'd be just like any other entertainer.  

As it is, you have to manage both your clients emotions and your own.  It is not an easy job in any way.

For most of us guys, though, that isn't true.  Many times I find myself reaching in my wallet at the end of a session, begging the lady to stay just one more half-hour.  Definitely, I'm not paying her to leave.

The guy is obviously not seeking to replace his wife, nor is he coaxing a lady into it by teasing her with an emotional commitment.  It should be an LLA-- a limited liability affair.

Jealousy and territoriality are deadly in your business, regardless.  If a guy is going to make demands based on that, he has to regain his sanity or get out of the hobby.  It is unhealthy at that point.    

-- Modified on 4/11/2006 3:22:55 PM

...with marital infidelity, they are in no way of the same importance. For religious types, which I am not, adultery is a sin before God.

I've said in another response above that the monogamous exclusive relationship is not the only one. We have swingers and we have people in open relationships. The point about people like that is that they consent and their marriage is not a lie.

Society does promote monogamy but there is no compunction for an individual to stay in a marriage. Seperation and divorce are far more easy these days, than say 50 years ago. There are alternatives and nobody is completely trapped in marriage unless they themselves decide to be.

The point is that too many guys like having wifey at home to fill that need but still want to have the bit on the side, whether escort or mistress, to fill that need. That is not right. Same goes for women who cheat.

...too much of a distinction.

Whether you are meeting a provider for emotionless casual sex, or in the midst of a passionate affair it is all still very much cheating.

No need to disentangle, they are both potential marriage breakers and outside of the marriage vow.

The main operative difference is: on the one, the consequences come from your wife being extremely pissed at you.  Further damage comes from the choices she feels compelled to make.  On the other, the consequences come from the costs to your family when your health is ruined, but you could take consolation that your wife likely won't **hold you responsible**.  The former is contingent on your wife finding out, the latter is contingent on your actually suffering the severe health effects you've risked.    

You tell others to feel guiltier about one, but when it's weighed, one is probably about as bad as the other, but our social morality doesn't recognize that, because it was formed in the 10th century.      

You don't agree.  Weigh it yourself and see if you could figure out a good reason why.  The only possible reason I can find is that one involves sex, the pleasure everyone must feel guilty about in some way, the second one doesn't.  Now, find the sanity in that for me.  I challenge you.  

I don't question the fact that the wife will feel pissed in that position; I question the over-reaching moral judgment based on her emotions alone.  

I know that there are guys who compulsively cheat and find pleasure in the intrigue of it, or flout their vows flagrantly.  I'm not talking about them specifically.  That's an extreme case of rubbing it in and feeling enabled at doing it.

(conciously or not) in the biblical commandment"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife".But if you think of it logically why was it legislated in the first place unless it was a prevalent practice then? So,the present day stigma attached to "cheating" has evolved over time and is rooted in the threat it poses both to stability of the family unit and thus society as a whole!! IMO, "cheating" poses a lesser threat than divorce to family and social stability!

...but cheating often leads to divorce. I believe marital indifidelity is the main reason cited for divorce today.

My own views on this subject and the way I live my life are influenced by what my father did. I would rather not have a family than cheat in the way that he did.

There is just no point in getting married if you want to spread it around, or moreover staying married. And I'm still happy spreading it around

...so the sense of betrayal at somebody who damages their health is not quite the same.

However, I would agree that both partners have to provide for the marriage and shortening your life by 20/30 years is not the best way to proceed. But really, that is not the same debate as the one about deceit and cheating.

You're only kidding yourself and every person here can see that. Its so easy to criticize and point fingers, but your feet are in the same place as those you criticize. That's known as hypocrisy.

...I don't even have a GF. So I don't see how you can come to that conclusion.

I am not deceiving anybody.

WE can come to any conclusions we like! That isn't a pleasure for you alone to indulge in. Since you are painting with a broad brush, so will I. You are deceiving yourself. Feels great to be pigeon-holed doesn't it? By the way, do you think your crap smells likes roses too?

Yet, if you are going to repair it afterward, that has to be parsed somehow.  Most guys don't see a provider with an intent on ending their marriage.

I agree with you, however, it's far better to not create the problem.  If you really love your spouse, you don't do insulting things to her.  

Yet, if I love a person, I would try to take pleasure in any of her healthy pleasures no matter how she creates them.  I'd be quite liberal as a husband in regards to affairs she has.  

No, in this culture, I don't expect that to be reciprocated.

so that's not going to be everyone's feeling or POV on the matter.

for the children, in whatever union. Time commitments should not be any different for a polyamorous/swinging/whatever couple than for a monogamous couple with their children. Ludicrous logic. Sorry.

Tho I for the most part agree with your statements and perspective, let me also say that it is very easy to sit in judgement over others when you yourself have never had to make the difficult choices some have had to make. You say it's not difficult if you love someone, well, keep in mind that we live in a society and a time in which many people are disconnected from themselves on a subconscious and a higher-conscious level, and throw in the fact that we have societal programming since birth for both sexes. Add in a human tendency toward conformity, and you are left with the likelihood of a large percentage of marriages occuring for completely the wrong reasons, and a maturity level isn't often reached until after the fact that would have remedied the poor judgement in the first place. Throw a kid or three into the fray, and you have a big mess. I'm not going to extrapolate out anymore details or possibilities, just remember that your perfect logic does not take into account variables a-infinity. The best laid plans of mice and men...

...it's the judgments and intolerance of women that's the issue.

But yes, there's enough misconceptions about both sexes, and ideologies that push us into darkness.

...so go stuff yourself with doughnuts.

...I know people can change and that marriages are usually different 10/20/30 years down the line from day one.

My only point through all of this is that people have choices and are not entirely trapped and forced into a corner, in perhaps the way that some of the posts seem to be portraying.

Whatever the solution to a stale/failing marriage it can't be infidelity and one sided deceit. Nobody really has to do that if they do not want to.

There is no such thing as a perfect human being but if it is easy to judge, it is also easy to rationalise deceit and infidelity.

Anyway a good debate, that is me done on this one.

after daily introspection, it would be a much different world. As it is, we are in a largely automatic, fast-food-mentality society.

I've enjoyed your thoughts and debate as well. I also think if by the expression of thought or through one's own actions you're able to inspire growth in just one other person, you've done something deeply good in this life. I wish every single one of you courage and strength on your individual journeys.

...and discovered that my lover/husband was seeing a specific civilian woman regularly I'd be devastated.  If he saw a provider I'd be angry but not as upset because it's a primarily physical instead of an emotional relationship.  (Although there is some emotional intimacy involved between myself and my clients, especially the regulars.)

Also, if he's seeing a provider he has zero interest in leaving me for her, but with a civilian he might.

Whatever...I'm glad that I'm not in a relationship.

For the gents, whether you're seeing a provider, your secretary, your neighbor or her best friend, your wife/girlfriend will be hurt and angry upon discovery, so be careful and don't get caught, or better yet, don't do it at all.  

Unless you're coming to see me, then it's o.k.    

When ya coming to Philly!?  lol.

aspect, I would be very careful stating what I would, or would not do under a future set of circumstances....   All I know is that while I was married, I did not cheat with anyone.  Would that be the case again if I were to marry?  I suppose that it would, but I would not stand before this group, and cast stones....   just too many variables.

The ladies of escorting, many (all) will provide services to a married guy?  but they also are now very mucy inclined to be suspicious of male behavior... who can blame them?  They are simply applying what they have learned of human psychology.

in human behavior, prediction is best modeled by the mathematical treatment found in chaos theory.  That is, small imperceptable environmental factors have effects often difficult to predict.  Were I married, would I try the straight route again?  I would like to think that I would...   but I am different now than I was in my first marriage.

so be careful with those rocks... oh - I forget, there are not a lot of mirrors in some peoples houses.

have put out there, I can truly understand.  May not agree - but definately understand.

everyone gets to their positions by their own unique journey... and are sometimes surprised that life sometimes deposits them with others who started at a completely different location.  

emotions, intimacy, children and life... all very big topics - with lots of room.... there are so many ways to do these things correctly, what i find troubling is that on so many of these, many of us specialize in finding the very few ways to do them incorrectly.

Sex is important, but what do I miss the most about marriage...  the everyday sharing that is supposed to take place...  but in my marriage sadly did not.  Like your SO, my ex found "playboy" offensive not understanding that I could enjoy viewing the beauty of another woman's body, but that did not equate to love.  or that for me, the turn on was attitude... not my ex's physical appearance....  

So, while my ex enjoyed sex, for her it was yet another bodily function, much like going to the bathroom - or eating - or breathing.   Me, I enjoyed it as yet another aspect of the marriage to be shared and enjoyed together.  Since we did not share much in other aspects of our marriage - this was no exception.... sadly.

I am easily distracted - for me to get married would be a disaster.  I usually schedule the appointments about right.  some are too short, but some occasionally are too long...   sad, but true.

What I have never been able to understand is how people (men or women) have the time for an affair.  

that, to me, is like asking a person who lives in 2-dimensions to contemplate the interior of a box.

There are a lot of women out there who have never **enjoyed** sex.  I mean, I think most of them  can, it just never connected with them.  They then have a very condenscending attitude about people who want to enjoy it, especially men, who do.  They can be quite bitter about it, too.  Sour grapes.  You see that expressed on Oprah, a lot.  They have a vague, hypothesis that sex in marriage should be enjoyable... but they don't practice it.  I don't think they've ever put themselves in a mindset to enjoy it, and they see it as something to disdain.  

Yes, I miss the closeness of the everyday sharing myself.  The hobby does its own work, and helps, and I've had friendships with the women here, but of course, they are limited strictly by the nature of it.  It's why I'm going to the dating sites now.  

I could see why guys feel imprisoned by that attitude.  I have.  Most women would feel that way if this were reversed, and if there were offensive shows, like Oprah, to encourage it.  They'd immediately recognize the tone of a show like that.

And Avalon was right, there are many misconceptions about sexuality in this culture, shared by both sexes.  In particular, the dimness and intolerance that women can show is painful to men.  It gets to be a matter, really, of control and power.  Sometimes women can trump men about that.  

BTW, I think your wife lost a good husband due to that.  

clearly I was not good enough.  But to this day, she acknowledges that I am the best Dad ever.

we voted on vacation this year.... I voted for florida...   kids picked camping out west.... bummer.  Love the pictures...

You can dish it out but you sure can't take it can you? A very immature reaction from you,considering I just gave you a taste of your own medicine. Ignorance is never acceptable. You have learned something. I hate doughnuts, I have no idea why you came at me with that one. lol

I hope so as my post was entirely tongue-in-cheek to make a point to the person who WAS throwing rocks(your words). Nobody likes being told what they are or how they should behave by someone who doesn't even know them. I gave back some medicine is all. Nobody should generalize hobbyists or providers the way he did. Married or unmarried. He has his opinion, GREAT, but its not gospel around here or anywhere else. Nor is mine, or yours. Now do you understand what I was trying to illustrate? I hope so.

...for an insult to have any impact it has to be based on something meaningful. Your insults to me were based on nothing other than silly rage and contempt with no purpose other than to shout. Yours was the immature post.

...especially if it goes against what the majority think.

I expressed an opinion, others challenged me, I defended it, and then people like you dragged it down to petty insults. You've illustrated nothing except your inability to debate and your childishness.

...I'm always grateful for people who make some sort of effort and have something worthwhile to say on hobby boards.

Otherwise it is all just putting up links and asking if I look good in purple underwear.

their ability to listen and digest the thoughts of others while still maintaining their view.  On rare occasions, that approach to open and honest discussion can actually change minds.  

Avalon is one such poster, while I may not always agree with her, I can recognize that she has valid points that are indeed worth listening to.

AS I have commented before - TER - is a great discussion group, no matter your participation in the "hobby"  best to all....  this was a very interesting thread.

-- Modified on 4/14/2006 1:52:31 PM

But if he felt he had to do it on his own occasionally I would not prevent it.