In today's (12/4) UT
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/uniontrib/thu/metro/news_2m4seize.html

But since when did that ever deter the police or the local courts?  And not just on this issue.

if the vehicle is being used in the commission of a crime.  That's how vehicles can be seized if you're caught with drugs too.
Sorry guys  

The Feds have used the same impound process for drug trafficking and I've heard of other cities using the impound process in prostitution busts.

I supect it will hold up in court.

It does hold up in court. The City of SD has had this law for a few years and I believe La mesa does as well. The way they get away with it is several years ago the state stopped issuing car titles. You now receive a "Certificate of title" This allows the state to have the true title to your car. This is just another example of how California is no longer the "Golden State" (except for the law makers).

I agree with the previous post, California is becomming more and more of a police state. I wonder, with the projected population to grow in San Diego by another million by the year 2030 within the next few years they will regulate based upon your last name, what days you can take a crap. I mean they are to busy making stupid laws, rather than be concerned about little things like infrastructures.

Unfortunately, you are correct that it will probably hold up in court.  The courts have seemed to erode or Constitutional protections and have leaned more and more to giving LE carte blanche.  It is very sad indeed.

Even if you are aquitted or charges are dropped, you may NOT be able to get your stuff back.  You can find out more about that "legal process" in a book called "Legal Muscle" by Rick Collins, J. D.

It's a book about Anabolic Steroids and the law, but the confiscation stuff is transferable knowledge.

Lucky this board is totally fictional, eh?

California: a police state? John Aschroft's style of Justice? Unconstitutionality of your car being impounded? Blah, blah, blah... You are all a bunch of cry babies...

Go to Russia or Turkey or Iraq or Saudi Arabia or even Mexico. Live there for a few years and do what you do here and come back and tell me your experience! and you think California is a police state? They would jail you for no reason based on suspicion or looks alone or chop off your d**k for commiting adultery or prostitution or jail you without trial.

We still live in the greatest country on the face of the earth. Freedom still rules supreme. Of course it's not a perfect country but it's still the best. Our Constitution guarantees our freedom.

So next time you wanna complain about our freedom, either get out of here and live somewhere else or be thankful of our freedom!

BH

Unfortunately, most people are content with the Ashcroft regime's attitude about justice. Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:

People who are willing to give up freedom for the sake of
short term security, deserve neither freedom nor security.
    -- Benjamin Franklin,
       statesman, author, and inventor (1706-1790)

But at least there's a fig leaf of cover for those, i.e. the vehicle was used in the commission of the "crime", e.g. selling drugs out of the trunk or cruising for street girls.  

As for it holding up in court, my whole point was that they routinely get away with unconstitutional behavior.

So...if all other countries killed innocent people when ever they wanted...then we should allow a few killings....better than those other countries. We need to all get a grip to the fact that our government is taking our freedoms away piece by piece…because we allow it. Video cameras...illegal search…taking my property because I have been charged with something, but not found guilty…and just see how they justify it…I am probably as lazy as anyone, but it only takes about 25% of the people to stop these atrocities. This is the USA….it not love it or leave….we change it.

Let's see if I can paraphrase this:
"This is the free-est country in the world.  So you better watch what you say about it or else!"

And if that weren't lame enough, since when was someone else's wrongdoing an excuse for our own?

BustyHobbys,  what a great example of conservative/Republican you are!  You are comparing our country with Russia, Saudi Arabia, blah blah ... full of mindless propaganda, incapable of analyzing, and slave to Limbaugh, Savage, and other barbarians occupying our valueable airwaves.

Son, go and compare our country to Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Finland, or even Germany, in terms of individual freedom, social security nets, and life expentancy.

Before you open your mouth and invite me to go live there, here is my country, and I have every intention of making here better.  Meanwhile, I encourage you to leave, so at least you see and learn!

I remember hearing the argument that non-streetwalkers were constantly being harrassed by motorists with questions about their sexual availability.  Would hate to have my (imaginary) daughter or actual sister constantly harrased, not to mention my (extremely imaginary) wife if she was walking alone.  These types of laws are extreme in nature because neighboring rich residents drive in and ruin the local atmosphere.  I usually get slapped down for my views on the hobby, but I'd support this law with the caveat that it apply only to streetwalking encounters.  If a provider advertises then it's nobody's business what happens between consenting adults.

The confiscation laws have been around longer than Ashcroft has been in office. I think they predate Reagan as well.

Personally, I'm tired of ALL the whiney crap from both sides. I hear the liberal types trying to blame conservatives for every "loss of freedom"....Bull.  Same goes for the conservative arguments about lack of public morals, reduced public safety...blah...blah....blah......

There's a lot of press about so-called losses of freedom, but it seems to me that both sides are just as guilty.

You don't want your car confiscated in El Cajon, be freakin careful. Think with the big head, not the little one. When the public officials get harrassed about streetwalkers and druggies, they make a big deal about cracking down. Their considered easy busts, most people publicly support them (although they may complain privately). How many of you would be willing to go to a public City Council meeting and go on public record in support of prostitution legalization? You might vote for it in the anonynomity of the voting booth, but do you publicly support COYOTE?

I hear the same worn out excuses about "the evil Patriot Act" yet I haven't heard of anyone (except for alleged terrorists) who have had their "rights" trampled. And then again, Jefferson made the statement that individual rights were not so absolute that they could be a detriment to societal rights and welfare.

You have no "right" to NOT be inconvenienced, and you have no "right" to not  be offended. In fact you HAVE the RIGHT to BE offensive-within reasonable aspects. I can say I think you're a jerk. You have the right to say I'm a jerk. Neither of us has the right to make false accusations about the other (i.e-one of us is a pedophile) without facing the repurcussions of false accusation.

I think the whole impounding deal is BS, but they are only supposed to impound property if you are arrested. In theory, if you are not convicted, your property must be returned. If your car (or other property) is not returned, that should be challenged constitutionally.

Let's just chill out about all the Nazi/Communist silliness.

While vehicle seizure is nothing new, I personally have never heard of beind required to pay the value of the vehicle to get it back. I would venture a guess that a competent attorney could argue this as cruel and unusual punishment. I would prefer not to compare this to cars that are siezed with drugs in them. Many of those bust have drugs worth several thousand dollars, or more. We are talking about a misdemeanor that would not get any first offender actual cell time. Just an opinion.

Jbirdca, you are so misinformed on all accounts, if you feel strongly, just do a little more reading, just a little more ...

Yes let's get this cleared up.  First of all this is not an Ashcroft issue.  The recent laws on confiscation of vehicles when used to solicit streetwalkers in California started in Northern California.  When Los Angeles passed their law the prize witness was Jerry Brown AKA Governor Moonbeam who is currently the mayor of Oakland.  He told everyone how wonderful it worked in Oakland.  The Los Angeles law as well as many of the other city laws call for the confiscation of the vehicle.  You then have ten days to oppose having it sold at auction.  If the vehicle is sold at auction and you are ultimately found not guilty of the crime in court you are (SOL) out of luck in regards to your vehicle.  The ordinance that is the blueprint for the Los Angeles ordinance was challenged and the California Supreme Court said it was constitutional.  The U.S. Supreme Court declined to review the ordinance because it considered the law a California matter.

it's your turn to get out there, see and learn... and no I dont like left wing liberal bas***ds like you.

I believe San Diego passed a similar law sometime ago as well.  This would have been before Bush was in office because Juan Vargas was on the City council.
I do know, San Diego passed new laws regulating  MP back then which go into place this coming June or July.

>They would jail you for no reason based on suspicion or looks >alone or chop off your d**k for commiting adultery or
>prostitution or jail you without trial

The people being held on Guantanamo Bay will be glad to hear the USA isn't holding them based on their looks or mere suspicion and that they really are going to have a trial, honest they are.

we're at war and the enemy is from within, ready and willing to destroy us... the circumstances is totally different and we still treat those prisoners with respect and dignity... have you ever been in jail abroad or seen them? if you have not, you just have no idea of what you're talking about. their prisoners are treated and t-o-r-t-u-r-e-d beyond your imagination). most of you dont even have the ability and capacity to imagine the methods of torture commonly done in those part of the world.

you cant say to your enemy, who's pointing a gun at you ready to kill you, "you have the right to remain silent, anything you say can and will be used against you, you have the right to an attorney..." that's just being stupid and you'll be dead by the time you're done saying it.

BH

looking at the issue OBJECTIVELY. You are doing exactly what you're blaming the "Limbaugh/Savage croud" for in your above post, which is being narrow minded and failing to see the whole picture. Your tone would be mighty different if the SW's were parading in front of your residence or business.

And by the way, who is paying for all of the wonderful social services in the utopian countries that you compare us to in your above post? What do you think the tax rate is in those shining examples of socialism? I, like you, am all for individual rights, but it's Californians such as yourself that have put this state in near bankruptcy to fund your entitlement philosophy.

Once they have this step in place, are they going to start confiscating your home when LE arrives there for OUTCALL?  Possibly, confiscate your bank accounts, 401Ks, other general assets, since the money is allowing you to participate in this horrendous crime.

What is done in any other country isn't relevant to what is happening here, and we have the right to bitch, complain, and do what is necessary to produce change.  The issue is that our rights and freedoms are being eroded bit by bit within this country.  This is simply another example of it.

Going to another country isn't going to make this countries erosion of rights and freedoms become any less so, nor make what is occurring here any more right, moral, just or correct.

The great part about this country is that I, and everyone else in this country, have the RIGHT AND RESPONSIBIILITY to raise issue with things which we believe are violations of our rights and freedoms.  It’s clear that the government and lawmakers are more than willing to take them away. As citizens we need to be as ever vigilant in making sure that we don't end up like those other countries because of the laws being created.

The IRS (a left wing commie organization nascent in the early part of the century) already has those rights to confiscate all financial assets. And guess what, the states will soon follow the IRS tactics of confiscation of all assets in their states' control....

And yes, those legislators who like these laws are left wing, anti-American, mescan-loving commies (a la juan vargas and bustamecha) ruining the social fabric of this country (who support and encourage people that hate us to flood accross the borders illegally) and they use it as an excuse to go "against the rich, because the rich have the assets" so "let's get'em where it hurts."

Ashcroft? Come on, my rights have NEVER been diminished by Ashcroft, but they certainly have been diminished by the super wealthy "don't want you to have power" lefties that have conceptualized the IRS, the fiscal mess of most states....

By the way, the Bush regime has tried to do away the Miranda warning on numerous occassions.

It is difficult to understand your statement because of its awkward construction. But if you are saying that the liberals support illegal immigration, then you must agree that Sam Walton is a supreme liberal and anti-American since his businesses, Walmart etc. hires more illegal aliens than other business and has been indicted for such recently.

If you are saying that the IRS is left-wing agency of the government, you are dead wrong. The IRS is under the direction of the executive branch of government, and is guided by the dictates of the President.

Of course, if we had your way, compassionate companies such as Enron, Shell Oil, and Adelphia would dictate our way of life. If you think that most large businesses, CEOs, media comglomerates,
and multi-national organizations are liberal bodies, then you must think Hitler is Pro-Jew.

you reasoned that our government and lawmakers are evil, out to get you and ready to strip away your liberty little by little. you're wrong! my government is good, out to protect you and your rights, providing safety and stability for all! and you, you should be vigilant in making sure you're not breaking any laws. so stop whining like cry babies and stop thinking your government is your enemy!

Sam Walton, Buffet, Bill Gates fall under the category of the wealthy that do NOt want anybody else to be in their club. They are the ones who want high taxes for everyone, they want the crazy estate taxes in place... yet they have their money in all types of schemes and trusts to get away from taxes... so they do fall into that most odious of let wing commies... who afterall, were a bunch of elites.

The IRS WAS conceived by a bunch of left wing commies... you fool! The IRS is a political body that is unnaturally and wrongly embedded into the governmental structure... sort of like a disease.

If the executive branch "wanted" to get rid of it in its current form, (a federal collection agency would still need to be in place, but it should probably focus on a conmsumption tax model as opposed to this goofy income tax model that has ballooned into this atrophied behemoth), it would have hell to pay with the lefties in congress... who by the way, are filthy rich themselves (corzine, boxer, Feinstein, Leiberman, Kennedy).

Your last point about Enron (a mostly 'republican bunch), Adelphia (a mostly commie democrat/socialist bunch) is off the mark. Basically, you do not think much at all.

But in a nutshell, the lefty socialists have done more damage to humanity in this century than anyone else... they feed on hatred and fear.

Apparently, you have bought into their propaganda.

Go ahead, vote for bustamecha and Dean.

BusyHobbyst, define left wing-liberal! If feeling offended when you compare my country to Russia and Saudi Arabia, and feel good, and gloat, you demontrate your standards.  Raise them son!

-- Modified on 12/7/2003 10:18:39 PM

JBIRDCA, you wrote:

I hear the same worn out excuses about "the evil Patriot Act" yet I haven't heard of anyone (except for alleged terrorists) who have had their "rights" trampled.

I believe the matter of arresting Cheetah's owners and other politicians, the Partiot Act was used.

Thre are other examples.  I really really really, dont' want our country to turn into a third world police state ... is it too much to ask?

Dear Gordo, in 70s, 2 federal agnecies fighting drug, $11M budget. Today,  21 federal agencies+armed forces, at $19B/year.  These of course come from our tax dollars.  Is it worth it?

If you look at the entire picture, health care, retirements, cost of education, and all other social services offered, in reality, our direct and indirect taxes and costs, are not different from Nordic tax rates, unless you really believe for example the Danes are notoriously corrupt bureaucrats!

All States have financialy difficulties, California is not alone.

Itwas an ongoing case of election fraud and bribery. As I understand it, while investigating in Vegas, they got the leads for San Diego.

How does busting crooked politicians come under the Patriot Act?

Besides, I "think" the owner and his schill copped guilty pleas.

Got a better example? Or is it wrong for the laws to work?

You are right in that as a percentage of GDP, the USA taxes about the same as Scnadinavian countries, and the other high tax EU nations. Of course, we have less 'income' taxes than these countries, but we have layer after layer of taxes.... which they do NOT.... you also have to consider that the high tax EU nations do NOT have much of a military budget to speak of in terms of a % of GDP.

However, you are WRONG with the Cali budget crisis. Most other  states have crisis, but these crisis are in the order of $10-$200 per taxpayer.... where as Cali's crisis is in the $$$$thousand$$$$$ per taxpayer.... and hence Cali's crisis is greater than that of ALL other states combined!!!!!

Cali's crisis is also quite unique because:

1) this states' taxes are already among the top three (NJ, HI, and NY compete with CA for the No.1 spot),... how much higher can they go without driving people out to neighboring states?
2) less than half of the population pays taxes. Remember, around half of this state's work force are undocumented and do NOT pay income taxes (they only pay minimal sales taxes as they do not buy too much relative to the amounts they wire back to mexco)
3) a high percentage of wealthy people in the state pay very little taxes as they are either retirees or "work" out of state  (ie: entertainment).... they just claim to live here, like the retirees...
4) Lastly, Cali has a tremendous amount of Federal business not subject to state taxation (military) - California, because of its size and coastline, receives a disproportionately high amount of federal money.... so how much more could it receive from the feds?

In reality, this crisis could easily be reversed in less than 5 years *if*:

1) prop. 187 were truely implemented,
2) the state FROZE its spending,
3) taxes were moderately cut by at least 20%-40% (to put Cali along the national average and bring in all types of new businesses)
4) worker's comp were cut 50%-90% (yes, this state is a whopping 3x to 10x higher than other for WCF)

then this states' problems would be solved very qickly!!!!

But I am not optimistic. Most of our state legislators (bustamecha and vargas are prime examples) are both inept, irresponsible, and *HATE* the great America in their hearts...

Ness, it was a joy to read your posting.

Reefine the dellusional pictures you have

no, I dont feel offended at all by you liberals and your philosophy. I just dont like your kind. But I tolerate your existence. I am proud to be an american and I am proud of my government. It's my country and I will die for our Constitution. Our Constitution is the greatest thing ever invented by humankind! But your kind is stripping us of our nation's historical heritage and religious rights. Your kind thinks my government is the enemy (which is so stupid). Your kind criticizes, idealizes and philosophies. Your kind is just TALK, is never grateful and is never thankful! (ie. whines like cry babies). In short, dad, you fit the definition of a left wing liberal!

Ness, I too wanted to say it was a joy reading your words. keep up the good work and don't be such a stranger. More people support your thoughts than object. We choose to be silent more often than not...

Reefine the dellusional pictures you have

Your "defintion" of liberal, is an exercise in sloganeering, and the contradiction in your emails, speaks for itself!  I rest my case!

I believe a civil society has responsibility towards its poor and the weak.

I believe healthcare is something we should all benefit from, regardless of our social status

I believe education should be free for those who cannot afford it

If this is liberalism, be it, not that nonsense you learned from those nutcases on the radio!

Hell w/Arny, we want Ness....Nice straightforward and matter-of-fact post, however, your ideas will never work in Cali-too many clueless Barbara Boxer types in our state that don't have a kindergartner's grasp of basic economics.

Your comments on workers comp. costs are right on the money. Through work I deal w/mostly medium size manufacturing companies (revenues of $15-$50 million) and the disparity of WC expenses compared to other states is disgusting. With a move to another more business friendly state, some of these companies would be able to more than double their profits from the WC savings alone.

Are you sure about the high percentage (50%) of undocumented aliens in the CA workforce? That sounds kinda high. Although, remember that even if they were paying income tax, the impact would be minimal since their mostly working low paying service jobs. I read somewhere that something like the top 10% of earners supply 80% of the income tax revenue, in spite of what the "redistribution of wealth" crowd would lead you to believe w/their "the rich don't pay their fair share" propaganda.  


-- Modified on 12/8/2003 11:30:22 AM

In another state which is dead in the middle in terms of national averages, my company (white collar, and never any claims in its history) paid about $75/year in WC... in Cali (same jobs), we are in the $$thousands$$ of dollars/year... too bad.

It is the state legislature and Gov. who allow the benefits to be so wacky, as well as the complete and mind numbing bias of our judicial system to allow lawyers to influence the average Joe into sueing companies to pay millions for trivial injuries.... and then idiotic juries that don't think....

As for the undocumented workers, you are correct with one point indicating that if they were paying taxes, they would be paying a minimal amount given the fact that ALL of them are earning between $8-$15/hour (the bracket that does not pay much in taxes anyway)... but the amount of workers in this state that are 'under the table' is staggering.

The census had the mexcan popluation in San Diego at approx. 35% (and about 45% for the whole state); while the mexcan agencies had it at 65% percent (for both state and San Diego county)... I hate to admit it, but I believe the mexcans on ths one.... and nationally? They are counted at approx. 14% of the total; but again, it is probably closer to 20%-25% of the total (again, I believe the mexcan govt. on this one, which uses it as a bargaining position for amnesty which that claims that half of their countrymen are in the USA at any given time; a whopping 70 million!).

This makes sense because this is what one sees as you travel throughout the country - my job makes me travel. For example, podunk 'hick' towns in Ohio, Tenessee, Utah, Indiana, North Carolina are flooded with them, the last place where you would expect to find them. this is a phenomenen I never saw up until the mid-90s.

Lastly, yes, the richest 10% pay the lion's share of taxes (including corporations)... this also contributes to Cali's mess, because this states taxes on the 'wealthy' is so outrageous, this is why so many of the wealthy get around it by only 'living' in Cali, they don't 'work' in Cali....

"I believe a civil society has responsibility towards its poor and the weak."

so we dont?

"I believe healthcare is something we should all benefit from, regardless of our social status"

again, you think we dont?

"I believe education should be free for those who cannot afford it."

again, we dont believe that too?

where's your common sense? you're worst than I thought!
btw, you asked for my IQ... what's yours?

My IQ is 163.  

If you believe in those values I stated, why did you call me "Left Wing Liberal," and ranted and raved?  These are not the values typically associated with Right Wing of the Republican Party.

-- Modified on 12/8/2003 6:05:10 PM

You are dead wrong on a number of points. First, it is plain incorrect to say that 50% of CA's work force is undocumented. I challenge you to present your sources for those numbers.

Second, CA does not receive a disportionate amount of federal money. CA receives about $.88 on the dollar it gives to the feds.

You talk big, but where are are sources of information!

Right, Bill Gates and Sam Walton are communists.

What poor unfornate event occured in your childhood to cause you have these views?

you have fundamental flaws in your belief system... who have you been watching/listening to?

My understanding is that Cali receives .77 back of every dollar we give to the federal Gov.
Can't dispute the # of undocumented workers because their just that, undocumented...

You are correct in saying that Cali receives between 0.77 and 0.90 for every dollar *DIRECTLY* sent to the IRS... however, this is only measured in terms of federal matching funds for schools, highways, and other infrastructure.

Cali, because of its huge coast and vast deserts, receives a huge amount of federal business that other states do NOT receive... this is called *INdirect* federal funding; which is manifest in the form of federal workers or private companies performing work exclusively for the feds.

For example:

1) Military bases. Cali does NOT count this asfederal income... but it should. Cali has tons of military bases (more than any other state), and for every military person in the state, up to three other 'civilian' jobs are supported.

2) Defense contractors... which are still very many. Boeing, Hughes, Lockheed, Rockwell, Northrop, PCI, Parker Hannifin, Raytheon.... to name a few. They are only here because of the bases.

3) Ports, which are federally controlled, greatly contribute to Cali's "economic" numbers. Cali is NOT really the 5th largest economy in the world *IF* you discount the port's import export numbers. When the Cali computes its GDP, it counts the 'value of imports' as a direct numeric contributor to itsbottom line...

Nextly, there are only a handful of businesses that are truly native and unique to Cali, and NOT inventins of the feds:

1) Entertainment. Hollywood came to this state in the early part of the century from NYC.

2) Tourism.

3) Electronics and Biotech, which are NOT truly 100% nascent Cali businesses, but rather spinoffs of Federal defense contractors. For example, HP is argueably the 'startup' company for 'silicon valley'... but HP was only started to provide hardware for the Navy. If the Navy were in Oregon, HP would have been there... again, the Feds presence led to this phenomenon. This is no different than small college towns having large corporations where former students or professors stay and create businesses.
4) Farming.....
Finally, please note that SoCal used to harbor 95% of the world's greatest Aerospace advancements up until the late 70s... because taxes and other costs (which indirectly were impacted by state taxes) have driven these compnies out. Their presence is miniscule compared to what it used to be. The major beneficiaries were Texas, Gerogia, Kansas, Utah, Arizona......you get the picture.

Please rethink your position. There is much more to the sory than the 'headlines'.

Read their opinions, read history... these are NOT opinions, but fact based only!!

Of the Cali workforce, approx. 50% is 'under the table. Of this 50%, *MOST* are undocumented, but there are also a lot of 'white All American' people working under  the table as well.

For example:
1) Restaurants... and Cali has many many many many restaurants.
Almost every restaurant owner I know of (and I know MANY of them) do not declare *MOST* of their income or workforce... not all are necessarily mexcan.

2) small shops. Most of the ones I know of, where 'white folk' work, either do not declare or hide a lot of their income. Whenever a cash transaction is taken place, a lot of it is pocketed and does NOT get recorded.

3) Contractors. They 'subcontract' most of the work, so they do NOT control the taxation in the form of a traditional payroll. and yes, check out any contract site and you will see both mexcans and 'white All American' boys that aint paying a dime i taxes, because they get paid cash.

4) independent contrctors, who do not employ more than one or two assistants, work on a cash basis only.

Basically, the only ones paying taxes are the big corporations;large retail outlets, and a few who can afford it.

Simply put, the state's WC and tax system has forced this situation.

Now, can you rationally put any coherent thought together rather than commie newspaper rhetoric, with specific example?  You are making broadsweeping negations without any specifics.

Health care costs would be very reasonable if it weren't for the trial lawyers and insurance companies colluding together. Basically, a socialistic system would replace one damaged but good system (that got messed up) with an even worse system.

Ok ness. What studies can you cite which support your claim that 50% of all CA workers are undocumented?

Right! You have a lot of opinion which you claim is fact. Let us see some real figures and studies, backed by sources. I think you  are just blowing smoke to support your radical viewpoint.

Very informitive Ness. I stand corrected on the .77 figure. thanks for the info...

Government and lawmakers have the capacity to be and have demonstrated themselves to be evil, out to get us and ready to strip away our liberties little by little, as evidenced by the laws they're passing. Even the framers of the constitution were aware of the fact that government has and will abuse power.  Unfortunately you seemed to have missed and overlooked that point.

At one point, consuming, buying, selling, producing alchohol was against the law.  It's called prohibition.  It's an excellent case study.

However, given your previous message and this response, it appears that you have neither the mental capacity or reasoning to be able to do more than go in the direction you're pointed in, and things are just black and white for you.  However, consider these things in our past that were law and have changed.

Slavery
Women not being able to vote
Segregation
Prohibition...

Whining, protesting, civil disobedience changed those things.


Now, do you always go the speed limit?  Not completely stop for  a stop sign. Always yield to pedestrians. Do you ever spit on the street?  Do you engage in sodomy?  Do you J-walk?....  There are laws about that too.

-- Modified on 12/10/2003 11:25:15 AM

How about trying this tact.  Instead of using "I" and "you", why not try focusing on the ISSUES instead of the person, or people or labeling?  I know it's an advanced method of thinking and discussing things, but give it a try.

I just couldn't resist this.
1) Why would you feel offended by anyone's philosophy?
2) Who cares what "kind" you like or not?
3) It doesn't matter whose existence you tolerate or not.
4) I am proud to be an American
5) I am proud of my government.
5a) Our government needs a lot of work to become better
5b) It's our responsibilities as citizens to be watchdogs of what our government does and that it looks after the rights of ALL it's citizens.
6) It's MY country also.
7) I'd never give up my life for the constitution, but I would give it up defending my country.  I have served in the military.
8)Our constitution was not written as a complete document.  That is why we have amendments, and the ability to amend it.  It's not nearly as good as the constitution we wrote for Japan after WWII.
9) Whose "KIND" is stripping "our nation's historical heritage and religious rights"?
10) Our government as well as the lawmakers and laws they pass have the ability to be the enemy of our freedoms and rights.  They even have been in the past.
11) Your statement "Your kind criticizes, idealizes and philosophies" POT, KETTLE, BLACK
12) "Your kind is just TALK, is never grateful and is never thankful! (ie. whines like cry babies). In short, dad, you fit the definition of a left wing liberal!"  See 11 above.  Also this is such a gross generalization as to be absurd.
13) I believe that your opinions, and how you represent them are a threat to our individual liberties and freedoms.  The apathy demonstrated in your posts are why government in our country or any other countries are able to remove the rights and freedoms of the people they are supposed to over see and protect.

There are numerous studies that are allo ver the map, but the one that really stood out in my mind was the state itself... by its very own admission, it indicated that a little over 50% of its households are known to be paying an income tax.... quite startling!!

In a nutshell, the income tax filings of the state versus the census numbers. You can add 2+2 can't you?

Next you'll be telling us you have a 3" dick the diameter of a coffee stirring straw!

Well, your quote is not what I said.  You defined Liberal/Left Wing as those who hate America.  Your definition, see your own writing.  This is far from the truth.

I tried to set forth what truly the Liberal Agenda has been.  I started with 3 simple principles.  All you need to do, is look at the political acitivities of the core Democratic lawmakers.

If you look the legislative agenda of the likes of Lott you will see they would like to minimalize and trivialize it.  

Just for you, I listened to Rush today.  He had nothing but words of hatered and attacks on Democrats. Never trying to define what the principles are, or why these people are evil, and what these devilish acts are.

If you are sitting on a $4M Trust Fund, and not a member of a minority, I could understand your gravitation towards the Extreme Right [as characterized by Rush, Savage [who for strange reasons, has changed his original name], or the likes of Lott].

I am white, and although business executive, don't have the $4M trust fund. But if I had, I still would have had the same value system.  I have travelled, and lived shortly in some third world countries.  I don't like to see those instabilities emerge here, either for our generation, or our children.

You have my utmost respect, and warm regards for having actually engaged in this dialogue.  I admire you for that.

In Europe, the term Left Wing has an entirely different meaning than here. This is why I wanted to ensure we are on the same page on these defintitions.

Well, evidently ness couldn't support his viewpoints otherwise he would have posted. His writings have no basis in fact.

Name one!