This is the website to the church where he susposedly has membership:
www.tucc.org/about.htm

Here's a snipet from their welcome page:

"We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community."


So. WHAT IF a WHITE person running for president were to attend a church that had an opening stetment that read like this:

"We are a congregation which is Unashamedly WHITE and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the WHITE religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are a Pan-Aryanist people, and remain "true to our nortic land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through Manifest Destiny. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a WHITE worship service and ministries which address the WHITE Community."

Why is it that some people are more equal than others and their abhorrent racist behavior is glossed over? Melting-pot my ass!

Good observation Ben. Unfortunately "racism" has a one way definition in this country, political correctness mandated by the arrogant/elite have shoved that down the collective American throat. It needs to be regurgitated.

It is used by section of the population to cry foul whenever and they choose. It is kind of like, if I don't get my way or if you don't give me what I want; I am going to yell discrimination.

I also found the following:

A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.
to be amazing.

May be on of the changes we all have to make?

The same reason there is a Miss Black America, United Negro College Fund, 100 Black Men of Atlanta, Black Coaches Association, and on and on....
PURE RACIST BULLSHIT!

Maybe it has something to do with the part you were unable to successfully mock.
"God has superintended our pilgrimage through Manifest Destiny." Somehow that just doesn't have the ring of "God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation."
Your little parody just doesn't address the FACT that the White race has held onto the role of oppressor through much of history and that your (and every bigot's) major problem with a black group banding together is that they just might somehow, someday have enough power to treat you as their ancestors were treated by yours.

Clear?

-- Modified on 1/8/2008 10:20:22 AM

It's very different than say, the Nation of Islam. Which has an alternate history saying why Blacks are superior.

You're parody lacks symmetry. A reversal that you show would be more committed to preserving power.

Of course, as I'm not Christian, I see the whole declaration as marketing. I don't know how Christianity should have much to do with culture, but the mixing of them is a common practice. I might say, it could be seen as an American practice.

Here is the quote that proves it: "Melting-pot my ass!"

He has a melting pot in his ass!  He says so, right there!

He could be somebody who can't see anything outside his own head - or just fucking paranoid.

The answer is in a reasonable perception to a social situation.

He is right in reversing the language, but wrong in stopping there.  You are right in pointing out that it's about whether somebody is "holding another person down".

There's nothing supremacist in the literal language of that website.   What they're saying is that they believe that slavery, racism etc etc has held them back, it's a matter of opinion if you agree with that, or not.

The flip side is that there's usually a lot between the lines of any idea, and frankly I think there's more hostility in BenD's fear (and hiding his ass in the woods between benders) than there is in this particular church.

BenD seems to feel that was all turned off & righted, maybe about when MLK was shot.  Of course that's BS.  It's also BS for every Tookie Williams and Rodney King to say that slavery makes him speed and conspire to murder.

"Clear?" You are "clearly" a bigot. Clean up your act!!!!

who claim to be "irretrievably committed" to their homelands?

A little goofy, sure, for a church to be "committed" to an entire fucking continent that shares about nothing except their desire to mass machete mutual suicide slaughters.

But think of it this way:  that's their thing, like hiding in igloos is your thing.  So you're a little goofy.  They probably have a good music section.  What's your claim to fame?

you get your ass off that stool and into the men's room.

And if you puke on the floor, I'm gonna swab it with your face.

Because Blacks are victims, and need special treatment in every aspect of life.  Our Democrat party is based on Blacks need special help, although no one alive was a slave.  There parents were not slaves.  Also their grandparents were not slaves.  But they saw Roots so the need special treatment.

Remember all the marchs for the Jena Six, most young blacks had to be told what the noose was from other Blacks so they would know they need to be outraged.  Most did not know what the hell it meant.

First off, neither I or any of my ancestory dating back to the 1400's (which is all the further back I know my genealogy)have ever owned slaves, so you can't implicate me via the sins of my ancestors, which is the first flaw in your logic. Just because my skin is pale doesn't make me opressor-defacto of the black man.

Secondly, it seems that a multi-millenial review of those of African-origin CLEARLY shows that they have been their own oppressor for far longer than they can blame any other race for their problems. It was typically rival tribes that collected those that were sold into slavery! I guess those in America now should write a thank you note to the Arabs for loading their ansestors on boats and shipping them across the ocean to sell into slavery, If it weren't for that uncomfortable time in history, they'd still be living in there AIDS-infested "mother land" of turmoil, tribal wars, starvation and ethinc cleansing... Now their modern American lifestyle and the "more equal than others" policies of affirmitive-action have more than equated any wrongs of the past that were commited by a SMALL fraction of all white people that actually owned and oppressed slaves. Blow reparations out your ass! The American welfare system has payed it back already a hundred-fold!

BTW, I stand by my manifest-destiny parody of the race-focused doctrine of that UCC church! The basis behind "manifest-destiny" was persicution (religious, not racial), or did you forget? Or did you ever even learn it in first place inorder to forget it? Which is perhaps why you couldn't connect the paradox...

I'm not too worried about your prediction of a black group ever banding together to mistreat whites, I think the black-on-black violent African history dating back to the dawn of human-kind shows that's about as likely as Al Sharpton winning the presidency on a write-in!

-- Modified on 1/8/2008 12:38:11 PM

"Christianity" is technically a 4th century word from roman culture, and has little to do with the real reason that "Christ" ever taught in his lifetime, which was infact a racially-neutral, love one another lifestyle called "The Way", So when I read the website of Obama's church, I see a hybrid of two wrong doctrines converging into a system of racial exclusivity based on seperatist principles...

None the less, that church is "free" to believe and practice any cluster-fuck of reverse-apartheid beliefs they choose to, that's not the issue... I'm stating the obvious which is Obama is getting a free-pass from the media-at-large for his membership in such a cult.

you know I never imbibe so much that I can't pull my Colt faster than you can swab anything. Now, set up a round for the house before the other patrons decide you aren't worth the tips they have been giving you.

they can't find justification for their race-based doctrine in the New Testament, so it's more the reverse of a religion which is a social-order that pulls a cloak of Christianity over themselves to cammo their true reason for organizing, which is the promotion of black-over-white and their affinity to the "mother contenent"...

Hmmm Sound much like the reciprocal of how the Klan misues their thin Biblical veneer to justify their racial-hate...





-- Modified on 1/8/2008 1:19:14 PM

Your logic or the lack there off shows your limited understanding of history. All you have read is the bath water someone gave you and believed it.

If blacks are so united why is the African continent such a basket case, the worst continent on earth. Every so called country in Africa where a dictator or war lord threw out every other race is in the shit-hole.

I am neither black or white and I have watched this racist crap. Why don't blacks go to school and get an education? What e % of blacks have a college degree and better themselves? Every one else in the world is holding you blacks back.

Instead of complaining someone else's ancestors, why don't you all worry about the current generation?

Racism is racism.

Just like the puritans escaped religious persecution to become persecutors themselves.

And history has shown that when given enough power to dominate another's freedom, most people will, often claiming it's "for the greater good"... Many times throughout history groups have attempted to force their beliefs by the sword, mob-rule, tactics of the legal system, etc. Much oppression has been commited in the name of Christ as well as in the name of muhammad, however, for the oppressive Christian they are acting in direct contrast to the way in which Christ taught, which was passive adherance or rejection of his message and to simply move on when the message wasn't recieved.  (Mathew 10:14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.)

How diffrent from the muslim-cultures who are merely following the direct example set forth by their profet muhammad when they "convert-by-the-sword" and enforce their doctrines through harsh disipline and punishment...







-- Modified on 1/8/2008 3:11:18 PM

I bemoan that it still has sway in our culture, especially in its fundamentalist branches. I don't like the notion of salvation from belief, and I despise campaigning on one's holiness or one's relationship to God, one knowing the "truth" due to ones relationship to God, etc. I already accept that Christians will hold sway in elections. Should I vote for Hillary because she appears to be the less sincerely religious of the three?  

But, Ben, you were talking about racism. It's a church which is marketed to Blacks. Like Nike, Ben. It doesn't claim superiority of Blacks, if anything, the message sounds like Blacks need their spiritual fix more than most. There's no hint it would turn down White membership, as long as they accept the mission statement. I somehow think your hypothetical White church would turn down Black membership emphatically-- so I don't expect the two mission statements mean the same thing.  

Wasps have their own buzz words and marketing for a church excluding Blacks. And Blacks, especially the poor ones, are very much discouraged from being there.

BTW, Cult-- it's either a fad church based on an eccentric or novel belief system, or a church of any sect where coercion and mind-cracking are used to control members and keep them disciplined. This mission statement doesn't hint at any of that-- in absence of anything else, I can't accept that it's a cult.

I really don't take issue with micks, spicks, wops or this UCC church's desire to dry-hump their ancestral trees, but this church is the religion-of-choice for a presidential hopeful, and that concerns me greatly!

I think that church is WRONG in their beliefs, but also defend their right to be be wrong, but that's not the issue at hand... The issue is that OBAMA is a member there, thus he MUST agree with MUCH of what they believe, right? And for some reason the media has turned a blind-eye to it yet ridicule and skewer Mitt Romney about his "religious affiliation" and Huckabee about his, and wring their hands and fearmonger about the dreaded possibility they MIGHT bring some of their beliefs into their decision making as President!  

WELL WHAT ABOUT FUCKIN' OBAMA POSSIBLY BRINGING SOME OF HIS FUCKED UP RELIGOUS BELIEFS INTO HIS DECISION MAKING IN OFFICE???

I fear that America's policy will dramatically shift towards sending hundreds of billions more of OUR dollars to that GOD FORSAKEN land of africa with Obama as prez!

Maybe if they'd REALLY like to stop the spread of AIDS in Africa, they could start by teaching their own Governemt-run millitaries to jerk off in a tissue to relieve themselves rather than gang-rape all the schoolgirls when the come into a village! But fuck no, the "problem" with AIDS must be that America isn't sending them enough money... Unfucking believable!



-- Modified on 1/8/2008 4:06:15 PM

It clearly sets blackness as the priority of the congregation, and if the reverse is true according to our American social standards, which would sharply say any church that promoted "whiteness" was racist, then surely they are guilty of the same fair measure!

What I see in your response is that you are willing to apply one set of measurment standards to one group, and a diffrent set to another.

Nike only intrensicly markets to blacks by choosing black atheletes as sponsors and creating a gaudy, getto-fabulous image around their product, however, many millions of young white thug-wannabes fall for that gimmik and buy the shoes also. It's still appealing to a market, which is quite diffrent from aligning ones self with a black-power/black-first pledge such as this church hardlines from it's members!




-- Modified on 1/8/2008 3:57:48 PM

Posted by Ben Dover, 1/8/2008 8:56:48 AM
"Why is it that some people are more equal than others and their abhorrent racist behavior is glossed over? Melting-pot my ass!

 I don't look at the Black Church proclaiming their blackness as a racist issue but as more of a solidarity issue..For hundreds of years crackers have enslaved ,stolen from ,locked up ,killed  and lied to African Americans..Solidarity is their only defense to help  insure they are not thrown in the gutter and their culture dismissed..

it would seem that the susposed "evil whites" are in the world-minority, does that justify us forming a "white-solidarity" movement? Seems like every time it's tried, it's labeled "rasist"...

Personally lived in a multiracial family before I have found that racism runs both ways. There is nothing wrong with Obama belonging to a church that upholds their "roots" as something to admire and value but I believe the intended parody DOES lack the same significance as the original message displayed on the church.

However, I DO feel it is extremely racist to have colleges, groups, and other organizations devoted to ONE ethnic group and not another. I don't believe that there is anything wrong with having a "white" college, group or other organization but the sad fact is the world today would automatically view that as racist just because of the color of our skin. Because ALL whites are racist right.

Growing up my step father was black and he was no different than any other dad except for the color of his skin. My two white sisters, and my white brother and I were never treated differently by his family. My black step sister and brother were treated the same as we were.  Living in a multiracial family has given me an invaluable insight into another culture, and YES I have seen Roots many times.

I don't condone racist activity on any level and at different points in my life have been subject to it. I have been refused service in stores. Called names and treated like crap just because of the color of my skin. The only difference between myself and the people who are hating me is the color of our skin and the fact that I was taught how to behave when others were not.  


In conclusion I do not feel that the statement of Obama's church is so blatantly racist and inflammatory. WE, as a whole group of people, are the ones who make it racist and inflammatory. Learn some tolerance. Change is made one person at a time.


-- Modified on 1/8/2008 4:55:52 PM

I often order a Burrito "Supreme" when I'm driving through a Taco Bell.  The melting pot cheese seems high in cholesterol, yet it is shredded, not squirted.  While the overall experience reminds me of the plight of a wet-back, it is not a breezy wet t-shirt contest to be sure.   Moral of the story is stay true to the Nordic Motherland and learn Icelandic, as English is the second language of the true white man, like it is all other colors.  We are a rainbow of complaining whiners.

WTF are you talking about? Manifest destiny has fuck all to do with religious persecution (yes, that is how it is spelled - that's why that funny little red line was under it). I guess you never learned it to forget it.

From Wikipedia:
The term combined a belief in expansionism with other popular ideas of the era, including American exceptionalism, Romantic nationalism, and a belief in the natural superiority of what was then called the "Anglo-Saxon race," i.e., whites of English heritage.

The natural superiority of whites of English heritage. You're so fucking racist that you think you're persecuted because you can't rabbit on about the superiority of the white race.

As for the rest of your diatribe, I'm sure you miss the old 3/5ths of  man argument.

Nothing like a bigot called out on his bigotry. Probably a good thing you're up in the piney woods, you'd last about 20 minutes around those you denigrate - they'd hand you your cracker ass.

As for the rest of you urbonic fuck-tard gibberish, I'll have to get jesse Jackson to inturpret whatever the fuck you were trying to say...

I did live in the metro for 20+ years, and dealt in low-income housing, so as you can imagine, it was primarly with black people... We got along fine, and the money was alway good, 'cuz the government sent the checks promptly and on time, lol!

As for my choice to live in the sticks, well if all you've ever know is the concrete-jungle, I guess you wouldn't understand...

-- Modified on 1/8/2008 8:11:53 PM

You've proved your bigotry far more eloquently than could I or anyone else.....

"As for the rest of you urbonic fuck-tard gibberish, I'll have to get jesse Jackson to inturpret whatever the fuck you were trying to say..."

Isn't it ironic that you and Jesse share so much in the realm of communication skills?

Posted by Ben Dover, 1/8/2008 1:16:19 PM
"they can't find justification for their race-based doctrine in the New Testament, so it's more the reverse of a religion which is a social-order that pulls a cloak of Christianity over themselves to cammo their true reason for organizing, which is the promotion of black-over-white and their affinity to the "mother contenent"...

Hmmm Sound much like the reciprocal of how the Klan misues their thin Biblical veneer to justify their racial-hate..."

   
I don't hear Obamas church preaching hate .I hear crackers hating on their togetherness..So what its a Black Church..Looking at it from their perspective many of them had relatives who were born in Africa and yanked out and sold as slaves in America. Isn't it easy to see how they would perhaps have a special feeling for the land they were stolen from and a special kind of comradery towards one another?...and feel a need  to stick together..???


Not sure if you are just trying to get responses or do you truly believe what you write??

Main reason for racism marches on is because one set of rules are applied to one set and a different set applied to another.

Simply go put up a site along the same lines and see how many media mutts will flock to it. It is easy for media mutts try to make a big deal of Romney and Huckabee (I won't vote for either one in a miillion years) religions, why not apply the same?

The answer is Jess and Al will start a massive boycott of  Media Giants and major advertisers start pulling their ads. Why would anyone want that?

It is the reality of race relations today. Who is pouring fuel on the fire is for you to figure out!

The White Church celebrated conquest as its heritage. It's basically a power fantasy. From there, it's easy to say that we were great before, and if we're not great now, it must be the fault of (-enemy-). So from there, it has to rely on a conspiracy that weakened the "master race." That, or it would be to preserve its current power from a conspiracy by (-enemy-). But note, the issue is power: who has it, who has a right to it, and who is afraid of losing it.

On the other end, the Black Church is circling the wagons-- albeit, defiantly. It talks of oppression as its heritage. It celebrates creativity in the face of it. If a White Church were to do this, it would have to make up bullshit, which is a usual tactic of racists. The oppression claimed by the Black church is 100 percent accurate. They don't indulge in any grandiose fantasies-- as the Nation of Islam does.  

I would find a White church formed on this basis to be fraudulent more than anything-- and racist because of that.    

Say what you want, Ben, but that's the way I see it. I guess it's too complex, but look at it like this: without a doubt, Blacks have been repressed. If we're contemptuous of them forming a Church-- isn't that another form of racism?

It's when they claim superiority through Nation of Islam fantasies, IMO, that's when their racists. Gathering for worship, though, could be seen as commiseration.

I will add that there's enough time to observe Obama and whatever organization he belongs to. Maybe the mission statement is more malignant than it first indicates.

-- Modified on 1/9/2008 10:47:39 AM

As usual, all you really need to do, is follow the money and see who gains the most out of the activity.

Al Sharpton (not our resident pundit) and Jesse Jackson are both spotlight whores who thrive on the attention.

I truly believe Martin Luther King rolls in his grave every time the self-serving hypocrite, the Right Reverend Jesse Jackson opens his mouth.

And that race-baiting, Jew-hating, jive-talkin', publicity stalking, flim-flammin, always scammin' piece of SHIT the Reverend Al Sharpton, never met a camera he could resist, never met a tragedy he couldn't exploit.

And then theres the ever odious Reverend Louis Farrakhan of the Nation of Islam, who may be the worst racist of them all, a thug in a fancy suit preaching hatred couched in a message of empowerment.

Obama's Church may have some strong sentiments, but they aint nuthin' compared to these three, all of whom benefit personally from continued acrimony between the disparate races comprising homo sapiens.

That's MY take in it.
Peace Out

bravo

and kudos to barack obama for being black, and not using it as a bludgeon.

guys like him make MLK's dream possible.



-- Modified on 1/9/2008 3:24:44 PM

Obama's church may not reach the levels of Sharpton, Jackson, or Farrakhan, but they're still racist, and they're still preaching divisiveness.

I think I'll start a church and start demanding reparations for my Chinese ancestors being treated as unfairly as the blacks. Forced to build railroads, no civil rights whatsoever, etc etc ad fucking nauseum.

I am so fucking sick of people claiming to be the biggest victims like it's some kind of contest. There is nobody alive today that was ever slave in America, I personally know or knew several Americans of Japanese descent(Americans not Japanese-Americans) who were forced into the camps during WWII. I don't see any organizations still crying about their suffering, and I don't want to. Get the fuck over it already.

"Looking at it from their perspective many of them had relatives who were born in Africa and yanked out and sold as slaves in America."

The white man didn't invent the slave trade in Africa, the vast majority of slaves brought to this country by the white man were captured and enslaved by other Africans.

Most people of African descent(I hate the term African-American) in this country are dozens of  generations removed from Africa. I am only one generation removed from Asia and I aint no fucking Asian-American. I am as American as anyone who can trace their roots back to the Mayflower, and if black people ever expect to be treated equally they better realize it's them, and their leaders putting up the walls not the rest of society.

Mark my words, in another 20-30 years Hispanics will have completely assimilated into American culture, while the African-Americans will still be claiming victim status.

I think I'll get a T-shirt printed that reads "Cracker Ass", infact, I think I'll have a whole bunch printed and sell them on ebay, because as long as we've got people like you emoting your reverse-racism, it'll be a hot seller...

(I'll even cut you in for 10% so you can buy youself a nice gold grill for your caddy...)

-- Modified on 1/9/2008 5:12:47 PM

i think victacrats suck too,

jesse jackhole, and for that matter, the modern dummyrat party have built entire careers in the RacialStrifeIndustrialComplex.

that said, i don't think it's adviable to hold individual members of churchs to a strict adherence to each and evey tenet a particular chu4rch preaaches...hold the preacher maybe, but not the flock

MOst, and by most, i'd "guess" 96% or more just pick a church they generally agree with and live near to....

church for most is partly a social thing

A little bit of both and infact I don't disagree with club and organizations that organize to maintain a remnant of heritage or culture... Russian, Swedes, Polish, Jews, etc all have them, However it is NOT the business of any "Christian" church to morph it's directive to those things based on race!

A Christian church should be about the cause of "CHRIST", which has NOTHING to do with racial self-segregation or promotion of race-based agendas...

And they also went to S-C-H-O-O-L and lots of it, becoming highly educated, became entrepreneurs and in a short time took back what had been taken from them during WWII!

So diffrent from the thug-mentality of "Sharpton, Jackson, or Farrakhan" and I'll ADD to that list "Reverend Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright, Jr."! Who has said some VERY racist things that would mak Sharpton blush and Farrakhan shout AMEN! I've done a bit more research on Rev. Wright since I started this thread, to have more ammo incase this thread went a diffrent direction, which didn't happen, so I'll just sit on it a while longer until Obama makes it through Super Tuesday... No point in beating a dead horse if Obama fades away into Hillary's artifically lit shadow...

Why is it that the members of this church want to continue to hold on to their "oppression-card" as there main get-out-of-work gimmik? I'd think they could take a few pointers from other world-groups that have suscessfully overcome mass tragity and oppression again and again and stop bitching about their "repression" while rolling on the floor in emotional extacy as the choir sings ans shouts hallelujah! It hasn't done them much for them in all these years.

The answer to their plight is simple: disipline their children, raise the MAJORITY of them in two-parent homes, stay in school and AT LEAST get a highschool diploma, get jobs or start businesses, speak out and end "thug-culture" which portrays ill-got-gain as normal and desirable, and quit breeding like rabbits!

That's all that other cultures do, simply build up a little more than they tear down every day, and in a generation or two, their problems would be gone, but they can't stop wollowing in the ashes of their self-pity long enough to see that...

I thought the topic was whether the declaration was racist. Without warning, you've switched it to whether the declaration is honorable or healthy.

I'm not going to argue about the new subject right now, but I will point out, your contrast with Judaism is even more odd than your first one.

What's so funny: Judaism is laden with a history of defeat and despair. It's a direct inspiration for Black Churches. So, I'll put it to you, Ben, it's not the claim of injustice and oppression that makes Blacks less successful than Jews.

So you're probably right that I shifted topics, I was at Club-Whispers posting that from my phone while taking a break from the rail cuz a fat girl was on the pole... (I've got a max-limit of 125# for girls I'll tip at a strip club, the chubby ones shoud be waiting tables, not torquin' the brass pole, IMHO)

Now, what were we talking about?? Oh yea.. I agree Jews have had more than their share of defeat, and they redefine "long suffering", but they have a tenacity to struggle, survive and community build, get educated and more often than no gain extreme wealth. (and not from athletics or recording a rap-song either!) However it's not the "claim of injustice and oppression" that I'm talking about as holding blacks down, it's their follow-up actions of wollowing in their self-pitty for GENERATIONS beyond the oppression and continuing to place the blame of their condition on others while as a collective-group creating their own physical boundries to success by short-sited lifestyle practices that's the diffrence...

I think you might be on to something though with your agreed observation that blacks are less successful than Jews, are you suggesting that it's genetic?

Not to mention Osama Obama is a Mussi as well. Once a Mussi always a Mussi. If he get elected he will pull the troops out of Iraq and let Al-Qaeda set up shop as they did in Afganistan.

They're generations beyond slavery, and generations beyond Jim Crow. There is still oppression. When you look at other people who suffered oppression-- the Irish, our government unknowingly helped them. Prohibition brought a lot of money to the Irish. IMHO, they would still be suffering oppression if it weren't for that.

Now, the Blacks would have a similar opportunity: the drug market. But it has too many bad effects on the community itself, and the policing is much more effective. So effective, in fact, it looks like oppression. I'm not saying here that drugs should be legalized, I'm asking that you look at the contrasting effects.

Nothing cures oppression like success and money in this culture. You think of a kid going to a ghetto school getting a poor education, dominated by gangs. There are the hoods, there's the media that tries to sell to him, and he's in a broken home, probably with drug use in the family, likely with one or more family member in prison. Meanwhile, when he comes home and escapes into the tube, everybody is trying to sell to him. Too young to deal with it, he's trained to desire material things-- which becomes a status symbol. His parents might be single, but always they are harried, busy, or perhaps on drugs. He hears a plurality of opinions on why his life is that bad. As a teen, he'll tend to stick with the opinion of his peers-- who are rebellious adolescents anyway.  When he sees misery all over and hears White people tell him all he needs is hard work-- and in high school, with his education a muddle, the best opportunity he sees is drug dealing, or possibly pimping. It's illegal activities or it's McDonald's. One pays a lot, the other pays poorly.

So, when he's dumped or leaves High School, what can he do? He has piss-poor job prospects, and other people in the ghetto already have the piss-poor jobs? He isn't educated, doesn't even know what he needs to know.

Also sees how the neighborhood is policed. He perceives that he might be stopped and jailed at any time. Having known a few police who had that duty, they can be pretty cynical about it, and aggressive. What he sees is close to an occupation. So, you get a rebellion mentality.

Meanwhile, the racism by comes in when Whites see this situation and recoil, and then they associate it to his race. Now, I'd like to tell him to get his life together and quit acting like a hood, but a White guy preaching to him on what he should do is counter-productive, it comes from the wrong source, and it's so ignorant it's practically racism. A black guy preaching to him in a White O&O paper is going to be seen as a traitor to the rebellion.

How does one solve this? You can't stop policing the poor area. Money to the schools will just disappear. It's hard to persuade business to locate there and bring jobs. The problems are actually structural. It isn't deliberately racist, but it's a good imitation, and it's definitely very oppressive. It's structural. White's aren't at fault, but unless they do something, it isn't going to get better.  

Instead of preaching to them, whites need to go down the the neighborhoods and help. It's dangerous work. It's one thing for them to hear platitudes from whites far away. It's quite another to receive personal help, get to know the helper, get to be friends, and then give friendly advice. It's dangerous volunteer work, but it's the only way I could think of to reduce the siege mentality. Especially when they are successful Whites with real jobs who don't have to go down there.  

I think understanding what's going on is far less inflammatory then preaching. It also doesn't sound racist.

"However it's not the 'claim of injustice and oppression' that I'm talking about as holding blacks down, it's their follow-up actions of wollowing in their self-pitty for GENERATIONS beyond the oppression and continuing to place the blame of their condition on others while as a collective-group creating their own physical boundries to success by short-sited lifestyle practices that's the diffrence..."

From that mission statement, I think what you say is inconclusive. There ARE injustices going on. It doesn't give a rebellious message.

It isn't racist for them to promise to redress injustices. Though it's not racism, I'll agree that the Black leadership is too focused on injustice and not improvement. I don't think that's going to improve. It just aggravates it to accuse them of racism. Justifiably, you could accuse them of poor leadership.

I agree completely with your assessment of their current cycle of generational-lasciviousness, however I don't see those factors as racially exclusive to blacks. Most white-trash trailer-house dwellers grow up the same and turn out the same, You are absolutely right that the cycle you decribe so well produces the outcome you assert overwhelmingly more often than not.

My counter to your assertion is to point out that your finding, [allbeit correct] is a rather "new" in the linage of time, and is essentially less than 50 years old.

So my question is what has been their excuse for the centuries prior (slavery and white oppression is my guess to your answer) well then what about the miliniums prior? And what about the areas where they've been remotely isolated with abundant resorces all around them?

It sounds simular to the middle-eastern saying; "Abab make their own deserts"... Could it be that to a large extent that Blacks make their own gettos?

I'm not suggesting, I'm just honestly asking, is it possible that there may be a genetic-predisposition to failure in some of the blood-lines of humans on this earth and likewise a genetic-trait in others to succeed? Possibly it's not exclusive to color, but perhaps unequally weighted among the various races?

-- Modified on 1/10/2008 8:45:22 PM

I never meant to suggest that Obama was at te bottom-feeded end of the terrorism-pyramid...
Posted by Ben Dover  , 2/20/2007 1:16:00 PM   [Ben Dover has 9 reviews]

I'm suggesting he's a well funded, well educated, second-gen sleeper-plant that has cloaked himself in everything that diversified-America holds as "values"...

He's the perfect "lefty"... He's a little bit Black, a little bit white, a little bit, acemedian, a little bit queer, a little bit Christian, a TINY bit muslim, and all swirled together as if he were CUSTOM MADE to be everything a guilty,white,pity-sick liberal would vote for...

Watch for lock-lipped LFK photo-opts with Obama and Gore in the mext few months to show that he's also a little bit "green"...

I can just see Obama pulling up in a prosession of puke-green Prius's to his next speaking engagement to give Al Gore a lingering embrace!

(Maybe Obama is an evil robot?? LMFAO!!)


-- Modified on 1/10/2008 9:12:56 PM

Ben, I did point out that other ethnic groups suffered in the same rut, or I gave an example with the Irish in the US before the 1920s. Other countries have their ethnic underclasses, and the dominant ethnicity pretty much says the same thing about their underclass that Whites in the US do. Why can't they move up? Because of the same siege mentality.

Why were they backward before? My knowledge of African History is sketchy. No, I wouldn't say slavery and white oppression pushed them into backwardness. Sub-Saharan Africa one of the most brutal parasitic environments on the planet. So bad that the sickle cell trait developed to give a partial resistance to malaria in its heterozygous combination. There's sleeping sickness, there's amoeba contaminating the water, and trypanosomiasis, there must be more than a  hundred of these horrible things there.  

Unlike bacterial and viral plagues in Europe, a person might live with parasites, but they wouldn't have too much surplus energy for brain work. So, these things were not only a physical drain, they lowered people's mental capacity. As a result, the population could never stablize and grow into a lasting nation-state. They didn't have writing, and without that, the people couldn't capitalize discoveries into inventions-- or they kept on losing knowledge.

There's also a question of isolation. Islam occupied all of Northern Africa. Now I don't know how the Islamic states treated Sub-Saharan Africans, Islam is very poor at recording history, and I have no facts about it. I get the idea that it wasn't a good relationship. Even if some Sub-saharans eventually converted to Islam. At the very least, there must have been slave raids continually because slavery wasn't considered wrong till the 19th century-- by any rel

This is crucial because Islam did not embrace the printing press! That, BTW, is why Islam was eclipsed by the West. The Imams, et al, were afraid that somebody would print the Koran the way the Christians printed the Bible. To them, the Koran had to be written. As a result, by 1900, there was only one newspaper in all of Islam. It was in Egypt and it had been started by Napoleon-- not a Moslem. Results? Islam was in the Styx.

Because the Islam didn't have the printing press, there could be no way that the printing press could have spread in Africa. Basically, I think Islam probably screwed the Africans long before the Europeans arrived.

As I said berfore, the more you and I argue, the more we agree...

Much like our extended thread over a year ago on Global warming I walked away with a changed point of view, this thread has had a simular result, and by combining what you said here with the world-wide observation that the adaptations humans physically make to their enviroments create lasting changes in their genetics, it does become even more clear.

Hmmmm.... I think I'll avoid arguing religion with you, I might run the risk of walking away from that thread as a devout athiest, lol!







-- Modified on 1/11/2008 7:12:40 AM

Seems like a contradiction of terms to me. As an agnostic, I lean a lot closer to atheism than anything else, but devout? that would seem to infer that person in question had some kind of special insight that we deny the "devout"(religous wack jobs) among us claim to have.

Buddhism doesn't specify a God. Scientology doesn't specify one.

Neither atheism nor theism are religions in themselves, thought they might be a cornerstone for a religion. Bolshevism? Definitely a religion with a moral code on a perpetual crusade.

I actually think of myself as a "religious" atheist. An inceptivist.  

. . . they might have genes that are not well adapted to the current day environment. We all have some of those, however.

Africa didn't always have that heavy of a parasitic environment. It likely developed and adapted to human beings in fairly recent prehistory.

Newest thinking is that insects helped destroy the dinosaurs by spreading disease.