This video affected me so much, I am posting. ( You know I rarely post)

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

TMT in Seattle

-- Modified on 4/26/2006 6:49:49 PM

every one of those kids would have been trying to blow their shoes up on some international flight.

because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."

Those are moving pictures.  Of course, most of those hurt and killed are killed by terrorists who seek only anarchy.  There are a lot of horrible pictures from 9-11 as well.  Even more from the holocaust.  "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
Edmund Burke

and will remain one, because all roads lead to stupidity sooner or later - prosperity leads to overpopulation, which leads to short fuses and war...which is still probably preferable to telling people who and how much procreation is permitted, because God help us, we'd get more Dan Quayles and GW Bushes then, for sure...

Calling somebody anything never impressed me one hell of a lot.   You can call me anything you like, as long as you do it my way; and if you don't, I still don't give a damn what you call me.     Talk is too damned cheap.

But I will venture that a well-laid populace is a very good start on a happier nation.   So everybody should be doing their part here...

We think it's important to understand that elimination of violence will not eliminate competition, and should not; and the question is only the vehicle of competition.   We are distressed that status as pathetic victim is becoming a vehicle of competition, because that obviously leads to masses of consummate pathetic victims, which turns our stomach...Political fraud is also another major vehicle of non-violent competition, and we have to wonder if dueling isn't preferable...

What we would LIKE to see is Olympic fucking become a vehicle of competition, but the Repubs only want it secret, and the Democrats would make us fuck hideously repulsive people - so what is a body to do?  Use your dollars to boycott politicians?

-- Modified on 4/27/2006 4:25:03 PM

to be calling the U.S. military terrorists, but I will consider your argument in light of all the little kids and women that we blow up in the name of freedom.

do you know of any instances of US military forces aiming at a target that has no military connection?   Like a pizza joint?  or a big office building?

You know, a target that would be pure "collateral damage", something that would kill as many non-combatants and children as possible, purely for shock value?

In the First Battle of Fallujah, in which the US Marines lost, there were no press allowed. There are no pictures or videos from that battle.

The insurgency in Iraq was instigated by Bush and his fictitous war and the Bush cabal's totally inept hadnling of post invasion. Every death in Iraq now is a result of Bush's actions.

You cannot determine if the person you are dropping a bomb on, shooting a missle at, or throwin white phosphorous on, is a civilian or insurgent before you do so.

Need + fear = evil
Need + courage = goodness





-- Modified on 4/27/2006 7:49:47 PM

but little more than opinions.

It's easy to claim there's no way to tell right from wrong, and so there is no objective way to know what is self-defense.

And that's total bullshit.   People who deliberately target installations and people that have no military connection, solely for the purpose of creating terror, are fucking assholes who should burn in hell.

If bin Laden has a beef, he can take it to the UN, or the court of any nation.  When he conspires to fly aircraft into buildings, he and all his accomplices are fucking terrorists and criminals.

Bush has IMHO made a mistake in treating these people as if we were at war, and not merely contemporary pirates who should be summarily hanged from the nearest crane.

That is not to advocate that we should regard every beard or turban or muslim as a terrorist; rather that we should bring the organized states of the world together to treat them as pirates were treated in the 17th-18th centuries.

That Bush is a moronic fuckup does not excuse any other asshole in any way.

otherwise what does that say about our military that they can kill and maim so many thousands of innocents by accident. We are in a time of war and frankly I find it offensive that you would be impugning the aim of our brave soldiers.

we are in complete agreement.

they are collateral damage.  and in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Hey, the price of freedom is high.  Just ask all those little...Oh wait, you can't.  Just pretend I never said anything.

within the field  of  American history that the two atomic bombs used against Japan were exactly this.  David Horowitz,  Gar Alperovitz,  William Appleman Williams, Robert Jay Lifton and some others have built careers making this very argument.

Not to defend anything associated with the Bush/NeoConMen war against Iraq, but the decision to ban media coverage, especially visual media coverage, at Fallujah probably had more to do with an already desperate attempt to slow the loss of Us public support for the war than it did to cover up any nefarious war-crime-like misdeeds by the Marines in the embattled burg.  sometimes i think we get too overwrought, meself especially, re these issues.

Peace stems from the existence of Freedom.

-- Modified on 4/29/2006 8:04:38 PM

That seems the more tempting thought-trap for Americans these days.  Especially when propaganda ties it in with freedom as well.

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-- Modified on 5/1/2006 12:30:52 AM

-- Modified on 5/1/2006 12:31:25 AM

emotional abuse is violence; (c) that nagging is emotional abuse; so that nagging starts wars.  And then of course (d) that terrorists are merely freedom fighters who cannot compete on a conventional battlefield, so that they need to strike targets that have no military connection, by avoiding armed targets, and striking women and children.

These schools of thought are necessary, because thinking is necessary.  They're also wrong, because they involve eliminating any judgment whatever - it's quite obvious that they move beyond the traditional function of self-defense to justify violence for its own sake; and while that may work for some, it does tend to destroy civilization, which is what we are trying to defend.

Violence of course does terrify (as does the prospect of a pissed off SO); and it is not technically possible to strike many military targets without hitting some innocents.  But IMH&LO, you cross the dividing line between defense and anarchy when you deliberately attack a target that has no military connection.

See how much better you can do.

wishing his wife's headache to continue lol!! could not resist.... sorry.

since those people who have no experience always know the most, there's no appreciation here of how easy it is to be mistaken about a target, or to be lied to about the nature of a target - somehow I'm not willing to bet on Rush Limbaugh's sources here.

One thing even Arabs understand:  pizza parlors are not presumptively connected to the military...and that is the reason they attack them, is for the purpose of terrorizing people who have no connection to combat, and thus broadening the war.   People like this bank on our scruples about attacking their own families.  Perhaps nukes are a way to dissuade them of that, and send them all to Paradise rather more quickly...

their receiving end?

due to its historical nature.

ie, you should be able to cite to your source.

were denseley populated.  Each city had a military importance but the demoralizing value was high with the dense population.  Weather and other factors were also a consideration.  In short, civilians were hurt for the demoralizing value.  

Were I Truman, would I have done it?  given the projected casualties for an invasion of Japan...   don't know.  All I can say is that the country wanted an end to the war, and this seemed to be the quickest way to end it.

That option is now no longer viable.  unless a madman uses the weapon.  Then all bets are off.  What some fail to realize is just how thin the layer of civilization really is.

You know who said that?  The Romans.  And they were experts, in the 1800 year history of their empire, they had at most 80 years of peace.  

Do the percentage.  Yeah, that works.

to those of ancient Rome?

...minus nuclear weapons, of course.

Though Americans often think that  abject failures of previous nation-states  will succeed just because Americans are implementing them this time.

Since you brought up comparisons to Rome, though, whatever happened to that Pax Americana we heard about?      

 

Of course it is better jist bcause we r doin it this time.  If them damn republicins wuld jist git outta the way, we could create that workers paradice that the russians just screwed up too.  That Harry Reid feller or maybe it was ted Kennedy that said it best, "from each accordin to their means, to each accordin to their needs."  so long as it is smart fellers like Teddy who determine what we need, we will be OK.

As for this war stuff, maybe if we would just act like a little country and pull back out of that middle east area, maybe they would leave us alone.  Kinda like that Rodney king feller said.  "Can't we just get along"  we need to understand the pain of them radical muslim fellers and  be tolerant  and they would love us.

Another salient consideration was the fact that both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were industrialized urban areas, but had been ["relatively"] spared the massive aerial bombardment of other Japanese cities like Tokyo.  As such they would essentially constitute a zero baselne upon which to guage the effectiveness [if that's the word?] of the atomic bomb.

Kyoto was spared because of it's religious and cultural significance, but only after a substantial personal intervention by SecWar Henry Stimson on the issue.  Take a look at Stimson's memoirs [On Active Service in Peace and War} or pretty much any history of that period or that decision.

Library shelves positively groan under the immense weight of books published and forgotten about this event. Here's a few names to get you started [and in absolutely no order of any sort]:

Robert Butow
Herbert Feis
Barton J. Berstein
Gregg Herken
Martin J. Sherwin
Gar Alperovitz
William Appleman Williams
Robert Batchelder

Happy reading on an unhappy subject.