... would you like to have been a republican living in Chicago during the first Daly Administration?  How would you have felt if you had voted against JFK?  

Free and fair elections are critical things.  Democracy wins when the contenders fight for every last vote.  Every party should battle on for every vote they can get and never let themsleves lose a vote through not being counted or being miscounted.

Doesn't this make sense to you?  This nitpicking is democracy in action.

Harry

I have said this repeatedly, this is not about Democrats or Republicans, it's about the sanctity of the election process.

If you have an IQ above room temperature, it should be obvious by now that something seriously wrong happened with the vote in Ohio.

I'm still waiting to see an article about the election which mistakenly gave votes to Kerry.

been recounts in Ohio, and they verified that Bush won the state.  If you have an IQ above room temperature, you will acknowledge this and go on to something else.  Like I said, it's getting very old and boring!

... right really sucks.  Gosh, wouldn't want you to be bored.

Harry

funds for all these recounts in Ohio that don't even remotely change the outcome of the election!  At this juncture, I'd rather be a realist than an idealist.

... Dems and point this out to them.  They will appreciate it.

talk about win at any cost!!! Now of all my times watching elections the SCUMMIEST move I've ever seen was this one.

You keep talking about election fraud, well why don't you report on something even worse, denying the right of those folks to vote who probably earned it the most!!

Since the democratic party did this (and no it was not the party but it was party loyalist and the party never opposed it) we all now know how much they really care about HONEST elections.

So please, don't waste our time...

done.  Actions speak louder than words, Harry.

to help:

Save the Children Federation - www.savethechildren.org
                                800-728-3843

AmeriCares - www.americares.org
             800-486-4357

CARE - www.careusa.org
      800-521-2273

International Red Cross - www.redcross.org
                          800-HELP-NOW


There are other organizations as well.  This is just a partial list.

nameless, i guess it is boring to bush supporters to have to hear how minorities were disinfranchised or how exit polls did not match the results (but of coarse only in swing states that bush won) or how there is no way to verify the votes on  electronic voting machines (why they would want it to be this way is very suspicious all by itself)and on and on and on. don't change the subject to the tsunami -- I've given and given plenty to various charities AND I can walk and chew gum at the same time. if the shoe were on the other foot you know the republicans would be making such a stink that it would make this look like barely a wisper. here's what I am tired and bored with -- the fact that you righties are so friggin predictable -- whenever you can't win an arguement you change the subject or attack the messenger. what is your answer to all of the messed-up and suspicious things that happened in ohio, florida and new mexico? or do you care? or do you even know?

... You are truly a holy man for our times.  An inspiration.  Bush won Ohio.  Why should any other party spend a cent challenging any aspect of the vote when they can give it all to the victims of the Tsunami?  

This is the kind of fine Religious Caring Spirit that needs to be sewn throughout our country.  And to think, you are merely one of the "nameless" majority that put us on the right path!  

The nation, and especially the thoughtless Dems on the board owe you a debt of gratitude.

those votes in Ohio, Harry.  That should occupy your time very fruitfully!

I feel very strongly that I did the right thing by contributing what I could to the Tsunami victims.  You, however, seem to be full of righteous hot air.  You're on the wrong side of this one Harry, and EVERYONE reading these posts knows it as well.  You'd best just drop it.

-- Modified on 12/30/2004 1:37:49 PM

-- Modified on 12/30/2004 1:45:05 PM

... I haven't contributed anything directly to victims of the Tsunami.  

I'm not involved in recounting votes in Ohio or anywhere else.

If the Dems or the Green Party thinks the votes are miscounted and are willing to put their $$$ where their mouth is, then things are working as they should.  They have that legal right and they have the right to exercise it.  

You can have your opinion that the $$$ should be sent for relief.  IMHO your writings on this and the way you state them is full of "righteous hot air", and stupid on their face.  I expect there will be conservatives that post on this board who are willing to tell you so.   Many of them are pretty smart and have a nose for bullshit.

Grow up.  I was trying to prick your latex (baloon of hot air) earlier.  You went self- rightous and tried to change the subject thinking you could claim the high  road.  I called you on it.    Don't get the idea that you get a free ride just because you use an alias.

Harry

"You're on the wrong side of this one Harry, and EVERYONE reading these posts knows it as well.  You'd best just drop it."

How dare you presume to speak for me or anyone else on this board, Blue, or Red, Dem or GOP, right or left, conservative or liberal.

It is YOU who are full of self-righteous hot air my friend.

There are a number of conservative voices on this board who are able to articulate themslves and present their point with grace and dignity. You have yet to become one of them.

However, I do wish to acknowledge your efforts at publicizing the relief efforts of the recent disasters in Asia. Perhaps you can try to give our representatives in DC a lesson or two. THEN you'll learn what it really means to be one of the "nameless" ignored.

after visiting our friend. (Actually, she had an acceptable stand-in as much as that's possible. She has a touch of cold and you may want to call and wish her well).

Anyways, my thoughts went like this. I wholeheartedly agree with the core of your concern, that of being someone in charge of the counting mechanisms monkeying with the works. I don't care who gets caught doing it, Bush, Kerry, any of em. They should be ridden out of town on a rail because that is a cancer on the heart of our system.

However, I would be much more inclined to impart impartial motives to you IF you also posted information related to Dem's shenanigans as well. The Daly machine is legendary and don't think for one minute those tricks are not being employed now. Where is the coverage of that?

In California, the Dems have long kept the southern floodgates open. "Championed" nanny state programs, and basically handed voter reg forms to them that said, "Remember who brung ya". I've seen the direct mail pieces...

So my friend, Let's decide which it is we're interested in here. The small d, our the big D. I'll side with the small d and live with the chips where they fall.

BK

understanding the connection between endlessly counting votes in Ohio and the usage of funds elsewhere.  If people want to continue to count votes into the election in 2008, that's their perogative.  If people want to contribute funds to the victims of the tsunami, that's their perogative also.  It's called CHOICE, and we all have an opinion on the subject. You talk about "growing up."  I would suggest you look in the mirror and gaze upon the child who just can't stand it when someone disagrees with him.  Sorry Charlie, you don't "own" this board.  Truth is, I think you're childish and pathetic.  There, that ought to get you going.  You "called me on it."  Yeah, right.  Spare me!!

-- Modified on 12/30/2004 6:42:22 PM

You rightees are sooo predictable -- who else is going to change the subject to start talking about something that has NOTHING to do with this situation?

Of course you talking about the Military votes from 2000 that were put in the mail AFTER ELECTION day. Dude, that was also fraud by the Republicans -- those absentee ballots were cast AFTER election day by people who knew that they had to get more votes for bush AFTER THE FACT because it was down to a few hundred votes. Please don't pull that crap on us, we are not as dumb as idiots you lay this on every day.

The Republicans are the ones who consistently try to keep people from voting and keep votes from counting.

You say the Dems are cheating too, huh? Well apparently they are not cheating very well!

I love how you throw out that innuendo, like Rush does then answer your retorical question as if your claim was a proven fact. Site your evidence? Wher is it happening now?  

With FAUX and the entire corporate media conglomeration, which the Repugs allowed to merge themselves into only 6 companies and therefore are litterally beholden to the Repugs, they would (and do) show you any little stupid negative thing that can be tied to the Dems (like the "they are trying to get rid of Christmas" bull crap lie).

I don't bother debating this election because the results are SO OBVIOUS that it is not worth my time. BUSH WON. Hell, I can find links on the internet that show almost anything...

On a side note, they finally solved that pesky JFK assasination thing. Look below for all the details

They have counted the vote over and over, looked into it time and time again. You find some screw ups in an election that involves over 100 million people, well aren't I suprised!! Well, not enough to be within the margin of error so case closed.

BTW, now I see that you are so ashamed you will not even acknowledge that the military ballots were valid. The shame you must carry...

Hell, even the lawyers in Florida knew they were proper ballots, they just bitched about crap regarding their timing of being received and postage details....

I stand by my first statement, that was the SCUMMIEST thing I have ever seen, and the fact that you have to lie about the nature of those ballots only proves my point.

I wish I could, Guillermo. I wish someone could. I'd feel better about it myself.

In Clinton's autobiography, he uses a GOP senator, the distinguished Alan Simpson of WY, to make a point why the GOP is the way they are: [GOP] does not think government can do much to improve on human nature. While Clinton's use of Simpson was clever, consider the much more evil subtext(s) behind Simpson's alleged statement.

I posted a link to www.threeworldwars.com a few weeks back. FWIW, it is true that it seems like the same bunch of people try to take the world back to the 9th century every 30-50 years ago, and for one reason or another, they inevitably fail. I think you're seeming more of the same, with the same result. The only problem is this time, we have some pretty handy weapons to destroy mankind with, and I think this time, it could get pretty messy.

You know, Bill (and this will warm the cockles of netMichelle's heart), you're the only Republican I'd ever think of letting you play with our friend. Thanks for the, ummmm, heads up.

Yes, you just changed the subject again. Why can't you rightees stay on the point?

Let me try again: If you can find "almost anything on the internet" find me the stuff the Dems are doing that you say is the same as what happened in Chicago in the 60s? I'm still waiting for you to support your last bull crap statement...

So I can assume in your "moral wisdom" of what should and should not be counted that absentee ballots should be counted no matter how late after the election they arrive? Or is it just those who you think will favor Republicans? Do tell, I really want to know how you decide how long after election day absentee ballots should be counted -- 1 day? 2 days? 1 week? 2 weeks? a month? Or is this only for military ballots? And U.S. citizens living abroad should have a different standard in your eyes?

Please explain.

... If you think my opinions are PC, so be it.  Sticks and Stones.

Since you prefer less PC things, I will reply to your original post (all the way up top).  

Nameless you are an asshole and the child of assholes.  Your original comment was childish and unworthy of you so you made it under an alias.  You are uncertain of yourself and of your ability to hold a conversation with people who have strong opinions that are different than yours.  

I say what I believe.  I'm careful about how I speak (PC) because I believe that speaking carefully is important in civil discourse.  I try to avoid flames.   However, I'm perfectly willing to take a shot at flaming if that is the way you like to talk.

as you are completely capable of proving that you're a jerk without anyone's help.  I can see that you think that people who disagree with you are "childish" and "unworthy."  Well, you are the one who is insecure, and you obviously can't take it when someone disagrees with you.  Although you feel it was necessary to call me "an asshole and the child of assholes,"  I will NOT respond in kind, as I have a good deal more class than that.  Suffice it to say that I think you are overly emotional and not too bright.  Happy New Year!

-- Modified on 12/31/2004 10:27:36 PM

I've already addressed the subject, BUSH WON!! What else is there to discuss? even with all these BS cliams they are not enough to claim a victory. can;t you just admit to a good old ass 'whippin The subject is a dead horse, but as I've said before, you go right on beating that horse and showing the public how imbittered you are, all the easier for us in '08

BTW, thanks for admitting that the DEMS stole the '60 election. Good to see that is settled..

As far as dirty politics from the left, how about this...

http://www.thatliberalmedia.com/archives/002576.html

Absentee ballots from a Service Men and Women should be counted if at all possible before the election. Their service to our country tends to put them in postions where a post office is not quite convenitent. And BTW, I think they have earned it, its a shme you don't seem to think so...

Okay, I see, you are just not going to even discuss the footage in the video are you? Intimidation, long lines mosttly in Democrat neighborhoods, blacks being taken off the voter rolls, etc. Just can't do it can you?

I looked at your link and, unlike you, I am willing to discuss it and even admit where you are right (which you seem to have a problem with). I saw that information before the election -- that is messed up and should be corrected.

However, I will say this -- 68% is about the percent of NYrs who are Democrats, so this is not just a Democrat problem. In addition, double registration happens everywhere -- a repug friend of mine who recently moved to Wash state had sent me that article too. I asked him if he had cancelled his registration in California when he (he had not). So he was registered in both places. It does not necessarily mean that someone is intenting to commit fraud. The vast majority are people who have simply moved from one place to another.

Now, lastly on the Military ballots: Please don't insinuate that I don't support the military -- I donate generously to the USO and to various support groups for those guys in the military (probably far more than you) whom I bleieve have been royally crewed by Bush. Now in case you did not know, we live in a country that gives one person one vote. Just because you are Military, or anything else, does not EARN you the right to have your vote count any more than anybody else so stop the bull crap. Nobody "EARNS" the right to vote after election day. That point of yours is just plain stupid.

I do not know what happened there and don't claim you do becuase you are speculating from what you are seeing. Hell, I've seen pictures of the Loch Ness monster too, but I have my doubts! Are we talking about an evil Republican plot, or people who simply don't know how to register to vote. I can only image the number of people who walked into the polling place having never registered and when turned away yelled "I've been disenfranchised!" And what intimidation, I saw challengers there which is a totally legal practice, both sides use them and they are powerless to make you vote for anyone.

Don't bother with the article I linked to, it was to simply point out that you can find any side to any argument you want and try to use that is proof (See link below for Nessie)

BTW, please don't claim you support the military if you support a party that will resort to throwing out their votes.That is just two faced for even this board...

And BTW, I am aware that everyone is granted the right to vote, but I still stand by statement that some people have earned that right more than others

Let me see if I understand what you are saying: 1) The video is probably a fake, the people in the video are probably actors and your evidence to back that up is a link to a JFK Conspiracy website and a loch-ness-monster website. 2) Some people have more of a right to vote than others. Did I get that right?

Hmmmm....Okay...And you guys say liberals are wackos?

BTW, did you know that blacks have a much higher representation in the military than the population? That means that the black communities they showed in that video clip would likely have a higher concentration of relatives in the military than other white communities -- so I assume you think that their vote should also count more that everybody else too? Is that what you are saying?

Your inadequate attempt at sarcasm reinforced the point that you were not paying attention.

You act like the worst example of an extreme _______ (fill in the blank with leftist radical or conservative bible thumper.....it matters not to me).

You really SHOULD study the art of critical thinking, since you have displayed a total lack of comprehension of what he posted.

you just keep digging deeper and deeper...

1) I never said it was fake, I said it did not prove anything.
If you don't understand the point of information on the internet, its no wonder you believe some of the things you do.

2) Who gives a CRAP if your cousin is serving in the service. In this coutry we recognoze people for their own sacrifices.

You still cannot address the point can you? You will say anything to avoid the point.

Okay, lets review, Snowman....

I challenged you to tell me what is going on in a video that shows voter suppression and intimidation and I have to pull teeth to get you to even address what is in the video. When you finally do you say "That doesn't prove anything"...and "what about Military bollots" ...and "if you don't understand the point of information on the internet"...whatever, Mr. Internet Expert. WHY WON'T YOU ADDRESS THE ISSUE!

.....You never once said that *if* people ARE being disenfranchised through voter suppression and intimidation as the video shows that it is wrong should be stopped no matter who is doing it. You never once said that all people who are eligiable to vote should be allowed to vote.

Then you make another completely bull crap statement "Who gives a CRAP if your cousin is serving in the service. In this coutry we recognoze people for their own sacrifices." ....We are taling about mothers and fathers and bothers and sisters....you take that so lightly for someone who supposedly supports our soldiers so much. What about the parents the 1300 soldiers who have lost their lives in a war based on falsehoods? Do we honor them? Or maybe we honor them only if they are white and Republicans? Is that it?

Now I agree that all eligable Military Ballots as well as every other eligable voters ballots should be counted. You have never said how long after election day you think Military ballots should be egligable or what criteria you would use -- you just say that the Military has earned the right to have thier votes  counted. That is beside the point! Well what if they are fraudulent votes? Should they be counted? You seem to be saying that fraudulent Military votes have "earned the right to be counted" but disenfranchised voters in Ohio should not even be acknowledged. What's up with that?

Now lets see if you can stick with the point or if you will devolve the conversation again and not address the point as if you don't understand what I am talking about.

I find it so interesting that none of you rightees have expressed anything like the following:

"If voter suppression and intimidation is happening anywhere, it should be stopped no matter who it is happening to".

That is what the video shows and that is what I challenged you to do....You have all avoided the issue with a whole lot of bull crap.

Part of defining an "issue" is validating the source of the information. The point that has been consistently driven home is that the "source" of your "issue" is questionable.

Since you seem so defensive, it might be a safe assumption that you are someone who thinks the video is true and there has been a vast conspiracy perpetrated by the GOP to deny people the "right to vote".

To address this video, we should have more information about who the people are that produced the video, where  and when the video was prepared, and finally what was edited out and what other actions or peripheral information was not provided.

During the election, liberals were always screaming about how talk radio was "distorting" the positions of the candidates by misquoting or selectively quoting the candidates (the famous "I voted for the $87 billion bfore I voted against the $87 billion, etc.) Rightfully, charges were levelled that the conservatives/Republicans were not accurately presenting ALL the information.

Now, when the likes of Michael Moore and others (as in your example) do the same thing (failing to present all the information and demanding accountability based upon fragmented information) conservatives and Republicans can counter with your same arguments.

The knife cuts both ways.

The real issue that needs to be investigated, without trying to create black helicopter theories, is the precincts where the numbers of registered voters and votes exceeded the population counts. The one precinct that registered some 3,000 votes for the President before the polls opened, etc.

No system is perfect, with voting you cannot have 100% accountability combined with absolute anonomynity (I can't spell worth crap). ALl you can validate is that there are 1,000 adults eligible to vote, there have been 750 of those eligible that are legally registered to vote and there must be no more than 750 ballots cast (or 1,000 if you allow provisional ballots). If your numbers don't jive, throw ALL of the votes out and re-cast the ballots--how do you know which are faud and which are not otherwise?

I do not know what the video shows just the same as you don't know. ISSUE addressed and resolved.

If you want to push it further, than actually do something to prove your point, otherwise you can just keep ranting and losing this argument.

BTW, THANKS!! I can do a searhin in YAHOO and am therefore now an "internet expert" hot damn

In regards to military ballots, my point is not how long they should be counted, but that they should not be thrown out for minor problems (as was attempted in teh 2000 election). Get your friend to re-read that part to you as well...

I just went through each of your posts -- nowhere does it mention anything about what that video shows which is people being disenfranchised through voter suppression and intimidation.

Is it real? I don't know and neither do you! But if it IS real, we should all be against it (including 7th graders like you -- one day you too will get to vote!). Since you have not said the you are also against it, given the numerous opportunities to do so, I must assume you are in favor of it.

Maybe you, Hannity and O'Rielly can start a 7th graders blog as a school project? That would be a nice learning experience for you.

-- Modified on 1/6/2005 6:02:53 PM

The challenge I posted was to see if any of you would condemn even the "appearance" of voter suppression and intimidation. Apparently you will not. I got my answer.

Was it a bit of a trick question? Yes it was.

However, any one of you could have said: "That looks pretty bad if it is true. But I DO NOT BELIEVE IT IS because I do not believe Michael Moore".

Instead you just skirted the whole thing by implying it is fraudulent on the part of MM. You use f911 to substantiate how MM distorts the truth, but you have not cited one instance of him having done that. A blanket statement does not prove your point. Which thing in any of his films did he distort?

Now I do not agree with MM positions on many issues, However, I do not see where and when he has distorted anything. Maybe you can point it out to me?

"But if it IS real, we should all be against it"...stamina

Against what, not letting people vote who did not properly register? You have admitted you don't even know if this is real, much less why these people could not vote. Take it this 7th grader, you need to do some homework if you are going to post something like this and act as though it is fact.

Moore admitted that his movie was a blatant attempt to sway voters.

He further acknowledged that it wasn't a documentary in the traditional sense.

Now, let's apply some basic logic here......attempt to sway opinions AND not a real documentary....hmm.... do you understand what a propagandist film is?

Moores Bullshit was propagandist to the extreme and by it's very nature, propaganda distorts tuthe by either direct and deliberate lies or manipulation of fact.