"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."
- Abraham Lincoln
This is basically nothing more than the Labor Theory of Value as cited by Smith, Marx, and a plethora of other economists.
-- Modified on 3/22/2011 5:25:28 AM
Willywonka4u pulled out this quote from Adam Smith that Democrats seem to be using these days. He said that Adam Smith believed that businessmen would "rather collude than compete" if left to themselves.
I strongly suspected that this is just quoting out of context, like creationists claiming that Darwin doubted that complex structures such as the eye could evolve naturally. Darwin goes on to explain how such structures could evolve. When he expressed that doubt, it was simply a rhetorical technique used as an introduction to the chapter where he discusses the processes by which complex structures do evolve.
I thought that might be very similar to what Democrats have been doing with this quote, so I tried to look it up. No luck. I did an internet search for the quote, and found a number of instances of Democrats and liberals using the quote, but with no references. Here is the full quote: “capitalists left to their own devices would rather collude than compete.”
So I searched all of the PDF copies of Adam Smith's works I could find, but no luck. I found a good source for PDF books at the link at the bottom.
I searched each PDF file for the whole quote and for the word "collude" alone. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Bupkus. Ain't no such thing.
This is starting to look more like Darwin's deathbed confession than an out of context quote. It simply doesn't exist. To my knowledge, Smith never even used the word "collude" in any of his written works.
-- Modified on 3/21/2011 2:41:39 PM
The one of Lincoln as saying, "All that loves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason to America."
Labor unions have repeated this quotation endlessly and have published it hundreds of times, but "there is no record of his ever having uttered these words . '' 
-- Modified on 3/21/2011 12:56:05 PM
At the risk of going off topic...
Even if he had said those words, it doesn't follow that he was promoting labor unions. I would argue that COERCIVE labor unions harm labor and America.
Even if he had said those words, it doesn't follow that he was promoting labor unions. I would argue that COERCIVE labor unions harm labor and America.
-- Modified on 3/21/2011 1:33:43 PM
Carl Sandburg and Lincoln historians have said there is no proof .
In his 1989 book, They Never Said It: A Book of Fake Quotes, Misquotes, and Misleading Attributions (Oxford University Press), Paul F. Boller, Jr.,
For decades, scholars and journalists have been quoting Lincoln as saying, "All that loves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason to America." Labor unions have repeated this quotation endlessly and have published it hundreds of times, but "there is no record of his ever having uttered these words," concludes Boller.
-- Modified on 3/21/2011 7:47:14 PM
See it go back and forth for ever. When I meet an historian, that has either gone through every bit evidence or a historian who lived in those time attached to dead presidents hip, I am not believing shit anyone says.
Especially considering the fact that honesty and honor was replaced with self gain, partisan ship, and agenda's.
Pointless.
Especially considering the fact that honesty and honor was replaced with self gain, partisan ship, and agenda's.
Pointless.
-- Modified on 3/22/2011 9:10:57 AM
So prove its a lie. Find the original speech, letter, book or article in which Lincoln actually said it.
Back it up. Prove it.
If you want to prove that he actually said it, provide a reference for when he said it. Was it in one of his speeches? If so, his speeches were often printed word for word in newspapers at the time. Did he write it in a letter to someone? A published article? There are primary sources.
Don't just link to another web page that says he said it.
I thought he said:
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."
- Abraham Lincoln
This is basically nothing more than the Labor Theory of Value as cited by Smith, Marx, and a plethora of other economists.
-- Modified on 3/22/2011 5:25:28 AM
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."
- Abraham Lincoln
This is basically nothing more than the Labor Theory of Value as cited by Smith, Marx, and a plethora of other economists.
-- Modified on 3/22/2011 5:25:28 AM
You really think businesses, or business persons like to compete. Perhaps they will tolerate it when they're winning, or if the law makes them compete fairly, and on equal footing with other businesses. But, if they had their way, they'd prefer not to compete. Why? It affects their profit margins. Just think if a car company didn't have to compete with other car companies; little need for marketing and advertising, research and design, the price of sending lobbyist to Washington, etc. If the Democrats misquoted someone, shame on them. But, their right in the assertion that, by their very nature, companies and business people do not like to compete. It's just a matter of, they don't have much choice to do otherwise.
The point is not that businesses want to compete, but that they can't protect themselves from competition in a free market. They need government help to do so.
There are many cases known where businesses made price setting agreements, but these agreements were always broken before the ink dried. There is no way to enforce them, except with the help of government.
Willywonka4u and other liberals seem to argue that this quote indicates that Adam Smith saw a role for government in breaking up trusts, monopolies, and large corporations because they would end up controlling whole industries, resulting in high prices, stagnation, and mass poverty. There is absolutely no evidence for this argument from authority for their paranoid delusions.
... "Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black."
You're right, Matt. Ford had basically no competition at the time, so customers had to take what he gave them.
Everything on the planet competes for finite resources. To collude with with a competitor simply creates larger competitors that will compete for the same finite resources. This makes little sense in the scheme of things. Generally, collusion takes place when the need arises for market conditions to be manipulated in favor of a group of competitors.
I find that very hard to believe. Usually the references used are so reliable. The quotes so accurate. The historical accounts credible. Surely you must be mistaken.
I think your research just proves the internet is wrong.
and the distortion of trade
People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices…. But though the law cannot hinder people of the same trade from sometimes assembling together, it ought to do nothing to facilitate such assemblies, much less to render them necessary.
You are not going to like this one
The Wealth Of Nations, Book V Chapter II Part II, Appendix to Articles I&II, p. 861, para. 12.
The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities...
Follow the link for interesting quotes from Adam Smithe
You should use quote tags, or at least quotation marks, so readers can tell when you are using your own words, or quoting someone.
I know about that Adam Smith passage. Basically, he is arguing that government shouldn't do anything to either promote collusion, nor prevent it. I'm pretty sure he would call government sponsored unions a form of such collusion.
...the first person I heard attribute that quote to Smith was G. Edward Griffin, the author of The Creature from Jekyll Island.