It's about 5 minutes long. Before you claim Israeli propaganda, be advised this video clip uses existing public footage aired by Al-Jazeera and posted online by Hamas and Hezbollah on their many websites. Anyone want to explain to me how these monsters are to be reasoned with?

I'm sure there are a few of you who would LOVE to see an end to Israel and an end to the Jews.
But I'm not talking to you.

but assuming the still photo is fair, it's chilling enough.

What kind of people send their children to be suicide bombers?  Bad enough to send 17 year olds armed & in uniform to take a chance.

X has very good questions about reasonable US interests in the mideast.  But the methodical use of children as suicide bombers is a cultural issue that is likely to trump any geo-political consideration.

http://www.jerusalemonline.com/4israel.asp

I praise Allah for all miracles, no matter how small.

so there is no oppurtunity to learn anything else..

Anyone want to explain to me how these (people) are to be reasoned with?

I'd love to see a satisfactory answer to this question. I've not seen one yet...

Muslims have never negotiated in good faith.  Muslims all over the world teach their future terrorist children that it's ok to lie, steal, cheat and murder any non-muslim if you can get away with it.

Instead of giving up land, Israel should  declare that The Golan Heights, West Bank, and Gaza Strip are Israel.  And then go from a line at the northern most tip of Israel straight west to the Mediterranean Sea and declare all that land part of Israel-- including the city of Tyre.  Then throw all the muslims out that are not already citizens of Israel.  The Christians in Tyre get to be citizens of Israel automatically.

We have to declare war on the muslim religion just as they have declared war on us.

it's also about feeling out an adversary.  Negotiation is cheap; wars are expensive, as you would know if you'd ever been an S-4.

or is this your contribution to the "war of ideas"?

Here I thought you actually BELIEVED all that garbage you spewed!
 And here all you were trying to do was feel me up! ROTFL!

there is obviously nothing at issue on TER.  TER is entertainment, as we know, at least in politics.

BenD, you have some serious reading comprehension problems.   It would be easy for a person to think that's the result of your malice, not sheer ignorance.  But in your case, we can see you're too lazy to google basic stuff, and you've said flat out you're not doing anything that doesn't look free - and it never occurs to you that free stuff may in fact be nothing more than bait.

It's really rare for me to run into such a committed asshole as yourself, ie as described above and earlier.    Yeah, some posters get to crazier results, but your process certainly takes the cake.   Maybe it's because you at least have some process.

any question.

How THE FUCK can you take yourself seriously when you're too FUCKING lazy to google?   WHy do you even bother to post the tripe that's fermenting in your underemployed brain?

like, refer to the Noah thread:  why are you too lazy to google for facts?  Because I can tell you, it's that laziness that leads to your phenomenal ignorance.   Just what we have to expect from people who regard religion as a free lunch.

And exactly the reason the world is so fucked up today, all the fucking insane wars rationalized in terms of religions.

been festering for nearly 50 years.  Gonzo's link states the muslim worldview the way it is.  They are willing to do this low level guerrilla/terrorist warfare for the next 25 years--even 50 years.  Muslim birthrates everywhere are high and they're teaching their kids that Allah wants them to lie, cheat and murder all non-muslims whenever they can get away with it.  And to die taking as many non-muslims with you.  Look at Lebanon, muslims will control   Lebanon in 2 years and when they do, they will kill of and kick out all Christian lebs.  

Muslim kids are taught that they are to have no remorse in dealing with non-muslims.  They are specifically taught this in regards to Jews.  Thy're taught that every Jew deserves nothing but a painful horrible death.

The non-muslim world places itself in a major disadvantage when negotiating with them as they have no integrity.  Yasir Arafat was a master at this.

Negotiating with them does nothing but give them time.  Time has run out.  when they get tactical nukes, they're gonna use them.  Israel, New York, Chicago, LA, Washington DC.

I don't think a war can be avoided.  The goal has to be to minimize our losses and to maximize theirs.

People, groups and nations respond to a variety of inputs.  "The muslim world" is hardly a well-defined group, any more than "the christian world" is.
The Turks are muslim, so are many malayans, so are many Africans, Filipinos, etc.  Remember, all politics are local.

I suspect that less educated and poorer groups respond more uniformly to BS like this, if for no other reason than the fact that even if they could  imagine choices, they don't have enough individual discreation or wealth to oppose the local powers.

It should be fairly easy for a thoughtful person to put themselves in another person's shoes, as far as they know anything about that person.  But politics often tend to drive the longer term solutions out in favor of short term soltions.  Gresham's law (that bad money drives out good) is a matter of economics, ie statistical human behavior - what it means is that all other things being equal, the larger assholes will always win in the short term, and the good guy has to make it to the long term to win on his terms - and he may not.

That's the reason for asshole politics, like swiftboating, and muslim groups firing up their people into suicide bombing.

There is a fairly predictable way to convince people to abandon their particular interpretation of scripture, eg Ben's interpretation of his scripture, these folks interpretation of the Koran, or any person's worldview, and that is to hand them something that shows them they are clearly wrong.

The problem is, what a person learns from, varies from person to person and group to group.  Some people can watch or hear about others, and learn from that.  Other people have to be knocked permanently unconscious before they will learn.

Religious folks often make it a point of pride to claim "death before dishonor" but as a general rule, they can be convinced - you just show them the choices, ie the consequences of their actions.   You may have to kill a few of them, or even a lot of them, but you give the others a real choice, and they will usually take it.  Eg, if it had been the Roman style, they might have told the Jews, hey, come down off that mountain, we'll let you have all the Pepsi and movies you want, and then watch the kids subvert the culture - that is, technology and economics often have effects that force and politics cannot.   OTOH, the Jews might have been intolerable to the Romans and vice versa, so they duked it out.  "Intolerable" is a frame of mind that really has little meaning unless you can actually carry thru your intolerance.

The fewer choices you give people, the more of them you will have to kill.  Yes, culture plays a big role in shaping national reactions.  So does economics, and so does military force.   It's a BIG mistake to equate all muslims.

Just for example, what do you have in common with chinese catholics?  Probably not a whole goddamned lot.  They talk funny, they look funny, they eat strange stuff, and they shit in the river like every other chinaman.  BUT if somebody starts dumping on them solely because they are "christian", you can bet that American churches will put together a couple tons of money to do whatever needed to defend them.   Just as Americans who hadn't been in Ireland for 5 generations would donate money because other Irishmen claimed the Brits oppressed them.  There is powerful force in this sort of ethnicity, and it's stupid to talk about "muslims" instead of defining them by the objectionable behavior, ie, "terrorists".

And as we all know, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.   Just look at all the revolutions, failed and not - our own, the irish troubles, the various russian problems, etc.

(This, Ben, is a very goddamned good reason to read REAL HISTORY instead of some 5th hand translation of a random collection of ancient myths of unknown origin - you fucking might as well read chicken entrails, but that's probly too much work for you.)

Lying, cheating and stealing - don't we recall some of the various recommendations Pat Robertson has had about say Episcopalians as the anti-christ?  And aren't these same folks having a lot of problems with honesty in govt as we speak?  Now, I'm not gonna zing them now, but I suspect the real reason that Pat robertson is not gonna act on these beliefs is that he's making tons of money other ways, ie, he has something to lose.  If he had nothing to lose, I suspect that the only difference between him and OBL would be the beard.  Assuming of course that Robertson is somewhat sincere, which is a big assumption.

Negotiating.  You probably think of negotiating like an American who doesn't do a lot.   Talk to people who really negotiate, and you will find that there are many purposes.  The people you want to do your negotiating here are lawyers, because they are very used to working to a good faith solution while concurrently being ready to cut throats, change minds, renegotiate or simply BS all on a moment's notice.  Perfect for international politics.

IT IS VERY STUPID TO LOSE CONTACT WITH YOUR ADVERSARY (ie somthing only GW would do).  Because then you don't know where he is, or where he comes from.  Anybody who has been in family court, or read the last 200 years of european history, knows that yesterdays mortal enemy can be today's lover, and vice versa.  Shit happens, get used to it.

So you negotiate.  What you say may well be another thing entirely, and what you follow thru on is conditioned on all sorts of things.  Rarely should you stop anything to negotiate.  

Tactical nukes.  Remember that terror was 1st introduced to modern America by Tim McVeigh, a native born US citizen.   We could kill every muslim, and there would still be criminals who would do whatever they could - do you doubt that native born American criminals cost the USA far more every year than all the muslims in the world combined?

What keeps tactical nukes out so far is that the various law enforcement agancies manage to disrupt  whatever plots are out there - and those agencies are not helped by leadership who regard their warnings as CYA exercises, as Bush did before 9/11.

The problem of dealing with this is not just a matter of predicting the actions among groups, but also a question of dealing with the uncertainty, ie, how much effort can we put into fooling around with things that we can't predict or control, and the presence of round-eyes per se is aggravating?

If you think we can de facto declare war on every muslim state, you better be thinking again.  This particular administration hasn't been able to handle Ifuckingraq - what do you think they're gonna do about Iran?

Seriously, if we attacked enough military posts in every muslim country to incapacitate their armed forces, we would only expose ourselves to the international vultures who would turn on us.  1st, Turkey is a NATO country, and NATO would have good reason to think we were off our nut, and needed to be taken out.  2nd, the Chinese and Russians would get back together, and take us on defending the world's oppressed.  Geezer, we do not have that much ordnance, and would not want to live in any world left over when thatmuch ordnance went off.  And even if we knocked out all their military forces, we still don't have ground forces to control their economies, and they *would* come back and get us.

Indiscriminate war against heathen is exactly what a dumbass conservative who never picked up a 100# field transport pack would recommend, because, of coourse, he's an ignorant, belligerent fuck.

Indiscriminate war against heathen is exactly what a dumbass conservative who never picked up a 100# field transport pack would recommend, because, of coourse, he's an ignorant, belligerent fuck.

What to do.  1st, the Israelis' problems belong to the Israelis, just as the Texans' problems belong to them.  In the right circumstances, people will and should come to each others' aid.  The problem is always defining the right circumstances, and the voices in some ignorant ass reactionaries' heads are a very poor guide to the right circumstances.   I tend to put much more stock in the opinions of people who have been there, done that, have some reasoned basis for their opinions, and understand the likely consequences of their actions, and this is the reason I have such a low opinion of the religious right and the Bush administration, because they are, collectively, some of the most abysmally ignorant, irrational and inexperienced fuckheads in American history.

What to do is, stop talking about muslims.  Our problem is terrorism.  Shit on terrorists, not on muslims.  And especially shit on the organized terror that Doc shows. If we want to start talking about criminal religions, where exactly would our own televangelists be?  How many of them could survive investigations for criminal fraud?

(1) its' been "festering" much more than 50 years, and islam is not necessarily the "problem" any more than it is a "symptom.

(2)  You have the wrong culprit, it's not what people believe, it's what they do.  It is not eg Turkish islam, it's terrorism, it's crimes against nations.  Our mistake was in giving OBL legitimacy in calling him a belligerent warrior, and not merely a lowlife criminal to be hunted down like a dog.

(3) Who said stop anything to negotiate?  

(4) So how do you propose to go to war with islam?  Have you ever actually worked in a logistics office long enough to get a clue about what's involved?  Do you think Bush, who could not foresee what he was getting into in Iraq, or manage it in any decent way, or any Republican, could actually do anything more than create a disaster?

Etc

for you to actually answer a question.

Like a conservative is gonna let that happen.

If you sign up in order to get the free education, life long health benefits or any of the incentives that attract young men and women into the service, then you also accept the risk that at anytime thereafter your services may be called on. If you don't want the risk of being called into this or any other war, then don't sign up!

Which is less honorabe? The one who sign's up for a duty and continually complains about being asked to fulfill it?
Or the one who realizes that he does not want to risk it and chooses not to take the job or the freebies?





-- Modified on 12/3/2006 5:42:13 AM

Muslim/islam-believing people breed like rats, have no ethical problem killing, lieing, cheating, stealing or finacially bleeding the non-muslim to death by taking advantage of every "relief-aid" program in the world! WE FEED THEM WHILE THEY BREED OUR FUTURE ENEMIES!!!

It has NOTHING really to do with race, blood-line, or ethnicity... It has ALL TO DO with their belief-system which is based on a book of lies, written by an illiterate mad-man war-lord pediphile who thought he was receiving a message from an angel!(Bible teaches that Satan can appear as an angel of light... I assume that's who Mo' got the "inspiration" from! Judging by the effect it's having on the world!)

The saying goes "Arabs make their own deserts", which is only part true, since they only represent a portion of all MUSLIMS!!

"MUSLIMS MAKE THEIR OWN DESERTS"!! And all you can think to do is give them Pepsi and videogames??  Why? so they can get more sugared up and have even more free time to plot our demise! All while improving their techology skills using our American made gizmos??

You do recognise the problem, but you're unwilling to accept the solution! And sadly, most euro-pee-on nations are lead by men that think like you! Liking to SOUND tough, and overly-intellectual, but ALWAYS failing to compose a plan or take any ACTION!!

What the fuck was that "100# fieldpack" of yours that you like to brag about full of anyway?? AMMO OR HUMANITARIAN-AID??

citizens, taxpayers and relatives of soldiers are voters who want to know why Bushites are so stupid.

It's simple:  Bush doens't read, and BenD etc gets his information from his Holy Koran.

The dishonor is in advocating war that you are unwilling to serve in, which is the usual Republican stance.   I would think that any person with a 6th grade comprehension and maturity could figure it out, but then, we have a lot of Bushites, don't we?

It looks like we are not yelling loud enough.  Perhaps BenD is right, we need to restrict voting to people who show some ability and willingness to read.    Certainly its dangerous to pay attention to such willfully ignorant fucks as BenD and the Bushites - anothedr failed garage band.

You want so bad to fight these rats, do it yourself.   Maybe you'll find out what's in a field transport pack for yourself.

and your heroes all dodged the draft, just like you, and their bravery consists of staying out of service.  It's really hard for a fella like GW to hold a 6-pack down.

So you're massive fuckups - too lazy to do anything except cheer your team.  Time for you to be drafted and find out for yourself, asshole.   Jimmy Webb's NCOs would love to see your pathetic asses one fine PI morning.

A couple salient points -

In my "day", which would have been the vietnam war era, we had a draft. It was a Selective Service draft... they were very selective in who they sought out to give service to their country.
Despite the supposed random selection system based on birthdates and draft lotteries, the vast, and I mean VAST majority of draftees, were black, chicano, and poor white trash (and in many cases, I DO mean trash). If you had any of a number of different deferments, you were exempted. The most popular of these deferments, were the II-S (student) and IV-D (divinity student). The CO (conscientious objector) deferment might get you out of active military, but could nonetheless put you behind a desk.

In todays world, we have a "volunteer" army, which means, I suppose, people volunteer for service. So who do the USAF recruiters focus on?
African-Americans, Hispanics, and uneducated Caucasians from poverty stricken neighborhoods.
The children of wealth and priviledge are rarely if ever solicited. (as an illustration of just how disparate military recruitment really is, in the 60's, Beverly Hills High School sued to prevent Marine recruiters from setting up a booth at a school fair... they won... meanwhile, Los Angeles High School, following BHHS lead, also filed suit against the US Army for the same thing...they lost.
Care to guess which was a school of priviledge, and which was a school of impoverished minorities?

This didn't really have much to do with your post çåçù, except to point out there is no honor at all involved here.

The closest thing we saw to honor in the Iraq fiasco, was Pat Tillman turing down an incredibly lucrative pro football package to join the Rangers and serve in Iraq. And look how he was treated.

Google and "wic-fuckin'-pedia" are what allow you to give your posts the false sense of being "intellectual" while lacking any APPLIED WISDOM! And fuck-face with a liberally-slanted electronic encyclopedia that automatically looks up anything you ask it can "appear" to have knowledge! But I can see through that thin vail and see that you lack a living soul which is the only thing that can convert knowledge into wisdom!!

(BTW, "Dirty Jesus" is just the alias I use when I have something to say that I don't want to be held accountable for... I'm not "hiding", I'm still your secret love-intrest Ben Dover.
 Some of my opinions (such a  my opinion of Islam) are too strong to say from my moderator-bully-pulpit. But it's common knowledge on most boards that this is my alias, I figured you already knew that,,, seeing you're such a skilled on-line research drone!)

Google is basic.  Wikipedia is basic.  If you have an issue with them, you should say so.

Nope, your issue is that you are too lazy.  Both intellectually and physically, and every other way you can think of.  Instead you come up with shit like this, how you can get out of cleaning up your own mess.

That is your idea of a living soul, ie avoiding ANY effort whatsoever.  Go fight you own wars, asshole.  You're the lowest sort of useless filth I can imagine, a classic example of what has fucked our nation up.

and the children of wealth and privilege are rarely solicited because they rarely sign up - the recruiters would be happy to get them, I would have been happy to have them, but they have "other priorities", and the recruiters have to go where they can make quota.

It's sad that the Army felt they had to withhold the fact that Tillman was killed by friendly fire.  It happens, and it's just poor training.  The first casualties in 1965 were friendly fire.  It's especailly a risk in insurgencies.  Either way, he's just as dead, and frankly, I don't mind slipping the guy a Purple Heart anyway.

The draft is a PITA to professional soldiers, but it's also a powerful tool for democracy; it forces people to confront the consequences of their actions.   Some things money cannot compensate, and I suspect that life is one of those.  I really doubt we would be in Iraq if there had been a draft.

I normally refrain from coarse lanugage but you have hit a nerve Cacu. Its personal. Your insinuation that the reason a person becomes a soldier and marine is so he get a free education, or life long health benefits and he all he does is complain is insult to every man and women in uniform. Who are these soldiers and marines that are complaining and not fulfilling their duty? Where are your facts? You make an accusation without any rationale. You obviously do not have understanding of the word honor.

Freebies, well let me tell you something. The freedom of speech, pursuit of happiness, freedom of religion has been paid for and is being for in blood. Yes, you are precisely the type of ingrate that reaps the benefits of people's sacrifice but are too lazy to do their part for their country.

Life long health benefits, have you tried to getting an appointment at the local VA? Good luck! It can take anywhere up to a half-year even to see a doctor.

but volunteering for any reason does not waive any man's hopes to go home and live in peace some day.

You missed my point entriely, it is not the soldiers complaint, it is asking advocates of war to step up and do their part.

Good republicans of course only think in terms of money.

JackO, I had no disagreement with your post. My problem is with CAcu, or whoever that alias is. To imply, soldiers and marines are reneging in their duty because they are afraid of the risks is an insult. To insinuate our men and women in uniform are freeloaders or cowards, gets my blood boiling.  

I agree with you, if you advocate war be prepared to lead by example. That is what good leaders do, lead by example.

only amplifying my original thoughts with something you made me think of.

I don't know if cacu was implying a serviceman was a freeloader, but he seems to think that the life of anybody who might be motivated by the GI Bill, etc is somehow not worth looking out for.

I know the draft was an immense PITA to me, I would much rather have volunteers; but it sure drops the problem on every neighbor's doorstep, doesn't it?    Not at all a bad thing, in that it makes people think twice before they go advocating war.  You know, like how they're gonna get deferred.

-- Modified on 12/3/2006 3:34:42 PM

I didn't say that the only reason someone would join is for the perks. What I said is if you signed up then don't cry foul when you're called up, reguardless of who is sending you to do what you signed up to do.

...give me facts. What specifically do you mean about being called up? What is it, that our soldiers and marines have "signed up to do"?  Your speaking in generalities and false, thoughtless allegations.