When troops are dying, the commander-in-chief cannot be coy, flippant, vague, or secretive. This is another lesson from Vietnam. A leader would thank Sen. Webb the sacrifice his family his making to his country. I miss Reagan.
It looks like George isn't going to become bipartisan, become a uniter, or become humble.
How snitty and childish!
Webb played just as pissy of a role in that exchange by using the opportunity to make an anti war remark to the Prez. (And make himself look like a hometown hero yo his fellow libs. Looks like it worked!)
well, at least he's not a fucking draft-dodging lush. At least he knows what it's like to be in a war zone, and have a kid in a war zone.
I'd have asked GW how the twins were, and if he knew what bar they were in, or if they planned to sign up any time soon. Like father, like daughters, I suppose.
Bush has fucked the lives of about 20K permanently disabled casualties in Iraq, and now, without firing a shot, the Iranians have gotten in bed with the Iraqis and told us to get out, and acheived the worst case scenario - shiite control of Iraq.
We have to either knock over the Iraqi govt we installed, and abrogate that treaty, or get out. Because invading Iran is not an option - we could neuter their forces, but we could never control more than a quarter of the territory.
I sure am glad you folks are always so right, and know so much about what you're doing. Ya fucking idjuts.
Like a mouse too smart for the mousetrap getting stuck in the roach motel instead.
Webb is a combat veteran with a son in combat. Bush doesn't have the SMALLEST CLUE here. How THE FUCK do you think a jarhead is? And how the FUCK do you expect a parent to react to the man who sent them into a losing battle, and only hours after he speaks, the loss is confirmed.
Bush is a callous, unthinking asshole asking a callous, unthinking question.
But all that assumes that you have some knowledge or appreciation for what is going on, and that's plain wrong.
Not the fucking pointless 20K casualties to date? Not that an incompetent president is fucking up our economy and killing people willy-nilly, and compromising national security?
ya know what? Americans were merciful to you assholes this last election cycle.
If you talked like Emily Fucking Post in a regimental staff meeting, the looks alone would shut you up in 10 seconds flat.
Who was acting childing? It was Webb acting childish.
The President asks him a personal question about how a family member is doing and Webb pretends it was akin to the Press asking, so he felt obligatd to "spin" his answer.
The President didn't let him get away with it in a rather disarming way.
To top it off, Webb's immaturity shined further by his open anger at Bush and further childishness, wishing he had decked him.
I'm sorry, if you thought Bush's response was disarming, then your social skills must be at the chimp level that Bush operates on.
When asked a direct "personal" question, not welcoming the "personal" response is simply insulting. If Bush even expected Webb, who actually ran against Bush in the Allen race, to meekly field a baited question like that, then Bush is stupid. Webb is the guy who made the war the main platform of his race. It's Bush who is supposed to be "bipartisan" now.
How do you find any respect for this person? I get the feeling if you were "having a beer" with him, as they always used to say, and he said something like "I didn't ask you that question" to you, you would punch his teeth out. For all the respect you profess, I bet you that you couldn't get past one afternoon with Dubya.
"How is your son?" Is very open ended. If the president is being "direct" maybe he should have said: "Is you're son Okay?"
If Dubya actually tried to ask that question, it would come out: "You're son's not dead yet, is he?"
I don't find "I didn't ask you that question" to be disarming in the least. I thinking about this very carefully: in what tone of voice would that be disarming? There are some where it won't be very arming.
I can't think of one where it would lower the tension level. I'll be fair and say maybe Bush's tone wasn't too bad, but you can't judge that from a written account.
I could easily imagine myself punching someone after they say that to me, though. You don't have to be a testosterone loaded goon to get pissed at that.
When troops are dying, the commander-in-chief cannot be coy, flippant, vague, or secretive. This is another lesson from Vietnam. A leader would thank Sen. Webb the sacrifice his family his making to his country. I miss Reagan.
yesterday? And it seems to have been a complete surprise to the Bushites, or he wouldn't be in Jordan trying to talk about this.
Without firing a shot, the Iranians have won the war, 2 weeks after Kissinger said it couldn't be won. Conceptually, it shouldn't have been a surprise. Practically, intel should have picked up the signals at least 90 days ago.
This has been a futile war, and predictably so. Bush walked his people into an ambush, and a fairly obvious one.
Webb feels pretty strongly about that, because he's been there. Bush is clueless, and doesn't care any more now than when he was in the ANG. Bush is the type of empty hat - I can't bring myself to call him a leader - that would draw friendly fire if the old man didn't move him back to special services 1st.
-- Modified on 11/30/2006 12:06:53 PM
for you. Bush asked a question. A very polite and suitable question.
Webb CHOSE to NOT answer the question. He didn't even come CLOSE to ANSWERING the question.
Instead, he tried to make a political point or start a debate or argument.
Webb could had said something to the effect, "My son is doing as well as can be expected, under the circumstances and we all hope he comes home soon." or even, "My son is doing terrible, etc. etc. etc.
Webb could have made any political point he wanted to make AFTER he had politely and decently acknowledged Bush's question.
I am sorry that your hatred of Bush clouds your judgement so.
like Bush; and that is Webb's entirely predictable and appropriate response.
Bush has fucked up innumerable lives for nothing, on account of his phenomenal ignorance and greed. He deserves the cold hard hatred of all moral men.
Did the fact that the president asked the guy a question command a certain response? Was Webb only allowed to give a standard answer because the President asked him? That's not the country I'm in. The man respecting that is not a straight shooting Texan, he's just a bully.
I'm never blinded. It's possible to be blinded by your respect and hopes for authority. Other than that, there's no reason to like Bush, and it's always easy to hate a dick.
People are fucking dying in an undeclared losing war, and Republiscum would rather talk about manners than deal with the questions. That's because their ass is never on the line.
It's my troops who are dying too.
he's relieved he has something to blame Democrats for the problem: Webb lost Iraq when he was impolite to the President. If everybody was polite, everything would be fine. Gresham's law regarding asshole behavior would be suspended if nobody said anything a Republican didn't like.
(Folks, for those who haven't taken econ 101, that's the fulfillment of gresham''s law.)
You decry that Webb is free to "answer" or (more appropriately) not answer the question in any form that he chooses and is also subsequently immune from any criticism here. But then the same doesn't apply to Bush's come back.
Somehow in your mind, proper protocol only applies to Bush, but not Webb. I'm not surprised by your attitude, but I am critical of it.
-- Modified on 12/3/2006 9:58:47 AM
don't you get it, people are dying needlessly. That you should even talk about this is callous and obscene.
You may or may not answer. But people are watching, and I know my reaction to any non-answer - ie, that it's just another republican asshole puke who should be taken as seriously as his televangelist buddies.
He's at the top, he should be the master politician, and he chose the Bismarkian task of attacking Iraq like a mastermind.
Moreover, I'm holding him by the standard he gave me: he promised to be a uniter not a divider. Yet, he divided the democrats against him, he has divided the Republicans, and he has divided the world against us.
Webb has no such promise attached to him, though he has others.
My reason for starting this thread was to point out that Bush did it again: another chance at being a uniter totally rebuffed, and just from sheer obnoxiousness this time.
I am reminded of Bush's promise every time he's dick and treats people, especially those who disagree with him, with contempt. It's not Democrats being uncooperative either. Bush could have said something understanding to Webb. Bush had nearly total allegiance from Democrats after 9/11 (read the polls, look at the vote he got for Iraq) and he squandered it.
I'm still waiting to see Bush the Uniter come out. I'm still waiting for Mr. Bipartisan to shine through. I can't help but point out that he squanders it at every turn. I don't think he could unite, I don't think he could be humble. That is my point.
Finally, I could think of no other politician outside a despotic one, and few other people except for Dick Cheney, who would have handled the statement in such a pull-rank manner. "You answer the question I asked you! I'm your president, damn it!"
The only thing that blinds you to this is his current authority. Just you wait, Mr. RWU. The week he leaves office, I predict your opinion of the guy will change.
As I said, if you were having a beer with a guy and he said that, it would be a bar brawl. That's probably the real reason he quit drinking.
-- Modified on 12/3/2006 2:15:54 PM
But neither you nor GW would know, would you?
No draft-dodging lush who just lost the war he sent any son off on deserves a civil answer.
Somebody should have decked him 6 years ago.
He lives at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Show us what a "MAN" you are and go do it, otherwise, like you like to tell eveyone else, STFU!!
and send Jimmy Webb a few Bens - Franklins, Dover's reached his limit right here.
that's what I thought, you're all talk...
it'd be a medical breakthrough to prove a reactionary Republican was actually thinking anything.
that's the difference between you and me. You get HIGHLY PISSED about what I believe, whereas I could care less what you think.
And why is this, perhaps it is because I know I have the facts on my side. (Of course, being one of the "evil" rich makes life pretty sweet too) 
between a President of one party, and a senator of another; especially when they come from completely different backgrounds.
Webb is a talented man http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_H._Webb who has proved himself in combat, with a son fighting overseas. Bush is a draft-dodging lush whose own daughters could be in any fucking bar, who knows?
You're just defending Bush because his phenomenal stupidity and amazing record of underacheivement makes you look good by comparison.
Two civil men can strongly disagree and be vigorous in their debate, but when the time comes they can both become informal and interact in very civil ways. Ask the historians of Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neil. They use to have drinks together.
Your attitude and lack of civility goes to the core of whats wrong with many on your side of the ...well where ever that is that you are standing.
Your own lack of civility makes it impossible to for most to tolerate you, but then you already knew that.
-- Modified on 11/30/2006 12:00:46 PM
you know I will give you back your own medicine seven (7) times over.
of the corruption of the Republican party that has created one of the most far-reaching crises in American history.
You seem to have no clue that American lives are being pissed away on account of inexcusable Republican ignorance and incompetence.
You SHOULD make a point of avoiding me, because if you ever face me, you'll be shredded. If viciousness here could save one American life, I'd hound you for the callous hypocrite you are.
could make you say a thing like that. Yeah, you support the troops - on the end of the Republican shaft.
Webb was a Reagan Republican. He's got more decorations than Kerry and McCain combined, and a son in Iraq; and you fuckers have the nerve to impugn his motives.
just as Bush has tried to shut reporters off by commenting on their glasses or suit, Bush and other Republisans typically shout, "look! over there!" because non-Republicans are generally honest and trusting - and Republiscum use that tactic to divert attention from their own massive fuckups.
Here you are, talking like you were fucking Miss Manners, when there are people dying in an incredibly fucked up war.
Next thing you're going to do is blame Webb's comments for losing the war. And you have the cojones to ask anybody to take you seriously.
Where are your priorities, asshole??!!!
You fuckers need to be horsewhipped, tarred, feathered and run out of town with a rail up your ass.
it's his dumbass actions and failures that rightly pissed off Webb and every other American with half a brain.
Webb wanted to make it a political debate.
Bush bitch slapped him, well done GWB!!!
only because he was oblivious to what responsible people do when they're sober.
As noted: 1st, there can't be informality between people like these, and you shouldn't pretend they don't know it. 2nd, how the FUCK do you think a jarhead is doing? If he's not in garrison, he's looking to be shot.
These 2 men personify opposite poles of character. Webb is a decent fellow, and Bush is a puke. I understand your sympathies are with the puke, because that's where you're at.
-- Modified on 11/30/2006 7:03:34 AM
so make me laugh
the low level of politics? It's all the Democrats' fault, too, and you wonder why nobody takes you seriously, treats you like assholes, shouts right back at you, etc?
Well, it's because people who talk like you are pretty uniformly conservative Republican assholes, completely ignorant and frustrated by their own ignorance.
Ya can approach this a couple of ways. 1, drag your pathetic ass down to the psychrink and get meds to put yourself into a coma, and out of yer intellectual misery. 2, do something serious for a change. Probably too late for you, but if I get enough demand (ie $$$$$), I think we can probably gin up some kind of ass-kicking program to open your eyes and help you appreciate working. Deprogramming thru January drops into Lake Superior could be an appetizer. But the US deserts are altogether too civilized these days - possibly excepting the various test ranges. We might leave ya camped out at China Lake, or 29 Palms.
If Republicans are so ignorant, then why is it they seem to have all the money
Answer that one, smart boy...
Cunningham get his money? Where did Jack Abramoff get his money?
If money makes you smart, why can't Bush hire brains, like he promised? Why does he fuck up everything?
Answer those, smart boy.
Let's see, GWB is President, GWB is a multi-millionaire, and you....
Just some schmuck on a net board.
If HE'S STUPID, I guess that would make you a FUCKING IDIOT...
Mind you, I am not calling you that, just using you're own intelligence scale you have set up.
but that's your personal problem. Answer some questions, like if GW's so smart, why can't he hire brains? You know, brains that would have kept his pathetic ass of out trouble?
This is NOT without precedent.......
These same journalists never cared much for the moral authority of grieving parents unloading their pain and bitter anger at the Commander-in-Chief during the Clinton years. Take the story of Randy Shughart, who earned the Congressional Medal of Honor for insisting he be dropped into a fierce firefight in Somalia on October 3, 1993 to aid American soldiers grounded in a helicopter crash. His heroism cost him his life. Shughart was honored at a White House ceremony in May 1994.
The award ceremony drew minimal media coverage. The Washington Post dedicated a few hundred words on Page A-6. USA Today’s story on page 9A highlighted Clinton’s stage performance, with reporter Richard Benedetto touting a "visibly moved President Clinton" who "softly whispered" thanks to the widows. But softer than a whisper – missing, in fact – was any discussion of the Vietnam-style dawdling of Clinton and his defense secretary, Les Aspin, and the decision not to send armor and gunships to support American soldiers on the ground in Somalia.
Shughart’s father, Herbert, stood next to President Clinton at that awards ceremony – and after refusing to shake the president’s hand, told him off for not providing enough military support in the conflict. National media coverage of that hostile exchange was non-existent.
The story eventually bubbled up, albeit packaged with sympathy for the "anguish" of President Clinton. One of the earliest accounts of this came over a year later, in the January 22, 1995 Los Angeles Times Magazine. Reporter Doyle McManus wrote that Clinton had delayed meeting with grieving parents (no media criticism in that case) since aides explained he was shaken by "seeing his own orders lead to tragedy." Clinton extended his hand to Shughart, and the grieving father refused to take it. "You are not fit to be President of the United States," McManus recounted Shugart saying. "The blame for my son’s death rests with you."
Another account surfaced in the New York Times on December 28, 2000, as reporter Jane Perlez looked back on Clinton’s strained relationship with the military. Perlez recounted that Shughart gave Clinton a "dressing down" instead of polite thanks. "I told him that for a man who dodged the draft, he wasn’t fit for the job," Shughart told the Times. It is nice that the Times was on the story – six years, seven months, and one week after it happened.
Michael Durant, who broke a leg and his back when his Black Hawk crashed, recalled in his 2003 memoir that as he recovered, "I had begun to really understand how much my comrades resented the actions of the Clinton administration, and their anger and bitterness over the refusal to provide us with the armor and the air support we needed." As the one man saved by Shughart and his colleague Gary Gordon, Durant decided to reject an offer from the Clinton White House to attend the ceremony. "I wasn’t going to stand on the White House lawn and make it appear that all was forgotten and forgiven, while my comrades were barely cold in their graves."
Why didn’t Durant’s "moral authority" draw a crowd, Ms. Dowd?
Some parents of soldiers slain that day were more vocal. Larry Joyce, a Vietnam combat veteran who lost his son Casey, was angry enough to agitate in Washington, testifying before the Senate, and getting a meeting the night before with President Clinton. The New York Times reported that Joyce "stunned the voluble panel into silence with a moving eulogy for his son," but apparently his moral authority was very limited, too. The Times didn’t quote him attacking Clinton. USA Today at least reported he said everyone should "know the consequences of foreign policy that is developed haphazardly and implemented by amateurs."
The contrast between Cindy Sheehan and these fathers who lost sons in Somalia is clear. The moral authority of presidential critics is directly related to how politically useful they are to the liberal agenda. Clinton was roundly criticized at the time for his bumbling in Somalia. But the critics armed with moral authority went ignored for years
-- Modified on 11/30/2006 6:32:27 PM
military actions--so does that mean that you agree with Webb on this?
i thought he and a couple of others might start to set a better tone..but, i do like webb and hope he is as he appears.
of wanting to have his son home soon was appropriate. It was AWOL who started the snark.
their glasses or fashion sense, instead of answering the questions.
his answer was non-responsive and snarky
as was yours
i expect better from him
you never disappoint
he's a published writer. Bush, OTOH, can't speak coherently, and shows no evidence of coherent thought.
You expect Democrats to roll over so that Republicans can fuck the world's ass, and you're disappointed when you run into somebody who won't.
I can't fucking believe that you're playing Miss Manners when people are dying in a fucked up war.
WAHT THE FUCK DOES IT TAKE TO GET YOUR ATTNETION??!!! MAYBE A DRAFT NOTICE!!!!!!!!!!
(1) Is anybody worried about Cheney's conversational manners? OK, that's another subject for another time.
(2) The question is a setup - it asks Webb to admit his jarhead loves Iraq, or be his boy's crybaby. The instinctive reaction is to unask the question.
(3) The question is shit. What, is it sorta like, "Jenna's around here somewhere, we're not sure, and Babs is bar-hopping today"? all casual & harmless? No. Everybody knows that jarheads are always the same, if they aren't waiting around for something to happen, they're looking to get shot. Everybody who thinks knows its always the same, and not worth talking about. But, George W. does not think.
(4) GW does not understand Webb's experience and view, because GW does not know where he was for his ANG drills, while Webb knows EXACTLY where he was, and likely knows exactly where & how he lost every casualty. Webb, of course, cannot understand GW's views, and thinks he's a puke.
(5) Why the FUCK is a CO doing asking somebody outside the chain of command, how one of his people is doing? Isn't he the CinC, doesn't he KNOW how his people are doing? From Webb's perspective, or the perspective of any good officer or NCO, Bush is only advertising his obliviousness. Civilians may not understand the POV; military do instinctively.
(6) GW and Webb are culturally polar opposites. GW is an underacheiving, draft-dodging, irresponsible bullshitting asshole, and Webb instinctively detests that. Webb knows full well that he is probably in the RNCs penis-envying gunsights to attack his record, just to distract him from his work - just as they have attacked McCain, Murtha, & Kerry.
(7) GW's response shows his callous, oblivious disregard for Americans who serve; ie., he's more worried about the suit or glasses a reporter wears, than answering his questions. GW should be begging forgiveness that he walked Webbs boy, and many others, into a kill zone for no good reason, and many of them will not be coming back. GW does not understand, this is what bad officers were most hated for. It's not endangering troops - that comes with the territory. It's endangering them stupidly, or needlessly. Those fuckers should be horsewhipped, and if it brought back any man's life or limb, I'm sure Jimmy Webb would have been all over that asshole.
It will take more than bad manners to resolve Iraq; but bad manners are a very good start.
and admitted that the bad manners were on Webb's side.
James Webb renews his "too hard-core to respect the president" act
The Washington Post reports that at a recent White House reception for freshmen members of Congress, Senator-elect James Webb tried to avoid President Bush. He declined to stand in a presidential receiving line or to have his picture taken with the president. Eventually, however, Bush found him and asked him how his son, a Marine, was doing. Webb responded, "I'd like to get them out of Iraq, Mr. President." Bush said, "That's not what I asked you; how's your boy?" According to the Post, Webb "coldly" replied "That's between me and my boy, Mr. President."
Webb seems to get off on disrespecting presidents. In 1997, he said:
I cannot conjure up an ounce of respect for Bill Clinton when it comes to the military. Every time I see him salute a Marine, it infuriates me. I don't think Bill Clinton cares one iota about what happens in a military unit.
However, when Webb needed Clinton's help, he brought the man whose administration he had called "the most corrupt in modern memory" to help him raise funds. Webb explained his about face by claiming that 9/11 had wiped the slate clean.
Thus, if Bush cared, he could take solace in the knowledge that if the wind changes, so too will the attitude of the erratic opportunist from Virginia.
Compare the records of both men to date, and tell me who you think is the puke.
for the several reasons I described, AS WELL AS his rude attempt to direct an allegedly casual conversation.
Somebody needs to explain to Bush that 20K avoidable casualties really is a big deal.
Somebody needs to explain that to your chickenhawk ass. A draft for you or your family is probably the only way to show you.
But if bad manners were to solve the problem, it's be a cheap solution.
I have yet to see a serious conservative voice on this forum, and that reflects the RNC fairly closely.
like we're at a fucking tea party or something. While you're being fucking Miss Manners, people's lives are being pissed away.
Do you want to explain how your rocket scientist chimpboy is gonna salvage this situation? Because he doesn't seem to have an answer for webb.
The question itself is obvious bullshit - it's like, 'have you stopped beating your wife?' Does your jarhead love Iraq, or are you his crybaby?
What you and other puke chickenhawks don't know is what any Marine in Webb's shoes thinks instinctively - "aren't you his CO? What are you doing asking *me* how he's doing? Don't you already know? If not, why the fuck aren't you out doing your job, asshole?"
You see, a guy with Webb's background does not take lightly to pissing people's lives away. He is a polar opposite of the joker Bush the lesser, and neither Dubya, nor you, nor George Will has a clue here, because you don't know what you're talking about.
ie, drooling at the thought of an unprofitable war to save the savages from themselves.
OK, it's a little more complex than that. But you can't debrief hundreds of Somali refugees - as I have - without being impressed by the determined savagery of these tribesmen - killing as many as they can, just because they can.
The Republicans, OTOH, drool at the thought of profitable wars to save the wogs from themselves, and they get to just about the same result.
Well, OK, Clinton lost a few dozen people in Somalia and accomplished absolutely nothing. Looks like we'll have about 20K deaths & permanent disabilities from Iraq, and what we've accomplished there is to put the Iraqis in bed with the Iranians.
Good job, George!! Ya beat Bubba again.