Those folks in the middle east don't play by the same set of rules. We should never have gone over there in the first place.
Even our allies in the region are not crazy about us.
The administration would have you believe we are liberators, but that is only to the Iraqis who love us. The rest see us as the enemy. Look for this type of activity to get much worse.
Quagmire? Nope, its a hellhole.
I pity the poor kids who joined the military thinkin they would get college money. This has been a rude awakening.
Apparently Sunni Islam!
In all deference to the leftist wacko's in this country and on this board, Bush should load up ALL the special forces and just lay waste to the Sunni Triangle, turn it into a pane of glass!
After all, he's not going to get your votes anyway! I can hear the cry of all the leftist weenies blaming Bush for this troglodyte peoples actions.
For once I would agree with the anti-war crowd, but only in this; if Bush is not going to have the balls to equip our men and finish the job with authority, then we should just withdraw and let this God forsaken country just destroy itself!
Standing silent in the face of such evil or withdrawing is cowardly, turn our men loose! Find the perpetrators of this atrocity and kill them in the streets of every city, town, village in the Sunni Triangle! And do it now! It's long past time to wipeout the inhuman bastards!
The fact is, alot of Iraqis absolutely hate our guts, and by mutilating 4 civilians, they want to shock us the hell out of their country. Saddam, for all his despotism, kept these religious fanatics in check through fear and exploitation. THIS is the exact reason that I never supported this war. It's because we are incredibly arrogant in thinking that it is our position to free the Iraqis from the oppression of Saddam. If the IRAQIS wanted US to throw the bum out, they had any number of opportunities to make that clear to us, and they pointedly never did so.
These people may be barbaric, but they are not stupid. They know damn well that we Americans will be appalled and disgusted by this treatment of our people, and we will re-assess why we are there and if we should remain on that mission. Frankly, at this point, we have to (but in fact, we never should have gone into Iraq in the first place without being invited by bona fide opposition to Saddam). Now, we are stuck in a quagmire, and we CAN'T leave in the face of this type of disgusting and humiliating spectacle. But we will see dozens more of these type of corpse draggings before this Iraqi adventure is complete.
And the reason Bush is at fault is that anyone with a brain could have foreseen this type of reception by the most religious elements of the Iraqi population. But, Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rummy, Wolfowitz, et al managed to delude themselves that our soldiers would be welcomed as liberating heroes, rather than as yet another occupying force to exploit Iraq. The truth sucks, when it hits you for the first time. But we are NOT wanted there by a great many of those people, and this is what happens in such a situation.
The resistance is coming from the Sunni minority in Iraq. The great majority have welcomed us, soldiers don't walk the streets of Baghdad in fear of the people, it is a very small percentage of terrorists. Street interviews with Sunni's in the triangle prove that the brutality witnessed was not supported by all of them, they were equally divided. I believe that we are in fact supported by the great majority in Iraq and we are supporting them in their desire for self rule.
Saddam had over 10 years to comply, openly with UN Inspectors, he decided to play a game, and lost. A game he was encouraged to play (in my opinion) by the past administration.
I find your desire to call Iraq a "quagmire" so quickly very unjustified. That terrorism will probably always continue in that region is very likely. When you have a mob of thugs screaming "we shed our blood ..." and in reality they don't, they shed others blood, but soon they will begin shedding their blood and the result will be the same as the "Great Medina Regiment", they will rethink their desire to meet Allah so soon and will go back under their rock, but most certainly will reappear, that is the cowardice of terrorism! The hope is that the people will tire of it and identify those involved so they can be prosecuted (killed).
Think about how we'd react if another group came here and tried to change us to their way of life. In fact, there were some British fellas a couple hundred years ago who found out we'd do sneaky shit like shooting at them from hiding and blowing up their stuff when they weren't looking. We killed as many as we could until they gave up and left. Now they're our friends, and they still have a different system of government from us - and if they tried to force it on us again, we'd kill as many as we could until they gave up and left again.
Just because I think Democracy is neat doesn't mean they do - and yes, it's a good thing (to us) that we're trying to give them - but they didn't ask for it. I sure like a good steak, but I don't think I'd appreciate someone trying to force one down my throat.
Like it or not, there are a lot of Iraqis who love their country, hated Saddam and don't think much of us. It's not the zero sum game the Bush administrations paints it as, just because they want us out doesn't mean they "hate freedom". That's the dumbest crap I've heard in years.
This was the one logic point I always have a hard time overcoming. I wonder if we don't sometimes forget to reverse the roles and how would we (USA) react under simialr conditions.
But I also recall a couple points:
* About the British we fought back in 1776 - There were a LARGE NUMBER of founders who DIDN'T support independence. They were quite happy to remain British subjects. SImilar thing happened during the Civil War. Those pesky Northerners wanted to disrupt the "status quo". And I seem to recall the independent nation of Texas for a while.
* Putting aside the whole WMD issue, the current silly debate about Iraq also makes me recall the appeasers from WW-II. Who really cared that 6 million jews were exterminated by the NAzis. After all, it wasn't really Our Concern until AFTER Pearl Harbor.
It's gotta be really tough being a Superpower. I mean, everyone seems to hate us. We could surrender our national sovereignty and bow before the rest of the world. I'm certain the EU would love to have us bury our faces in the dirt. We could also turn totally isolationist and withdraw from the rest of the world.
Damn, neither one of those choices is that attractive.
For all of you who think we should bow down and comport ourselves as the "rest of the civilized" world would like, why are you living here? Why not move to Canada or some European nation that is "civilized"? I'm not saying love it or leave it, I'm just asking you to evaluate what reasons you have for staying in a nation that is so bad?
You wanna scream about a war for oil, are you also screaming about gas prices that are at record highs? Oh I forgot, the Saudi's actually have it right. The environmentalists, with the restrictions on refining, make it impossible to produce cheap gas anymore. Or is it really a "black helicopter" conspiracy between Bush and "big oil"? Where's the oil?
We are well on the way to another Vietnam in Iraq. The sooner we recognize what a disaster it is, the better. The ONLY people who have benefitted from our invasion of Iraq are Haliburton and Al Qaida, and the rest of the religious fanatics who needed something to justify their anti-American hatred. Well, now they've got it.
Why don't you run your little ass over there Rambo - You and Bush are pretty damn gun ho about sending others to war. Here's an idea - you and Georgie can fly over there in his brand new fighter jet. You can suck him off in flight and if your real lucky maybe he'll stick a cigar up your ass - don't forget to keep your dress.
Oh, also ask Georgie puddin pie to write you up a nice review (4/10).
The board will go downhill fast if we start this.
Those folks in the middle east don't play by the same set of rules. We should never have gone over there in the first place.
Even our allies in the region are not crazy about us.
The administration would have you believe we are liberators, but that is only to the Iraqis who love us. The rest see us as the enemy. Look for this type of activity to get much worse.
Quagmire? Nope, its a hellhole.
I pity the poor kids who joined the military thinkin they would get college money. This has been a rude awakening.
Would you like me to give you a few examples of atrocities by others? Non-Muslims?
Let me give you some hint! Killing pregnant women??? Does it ring a bell? Do you want me to give the rest of the story here?
I could fill up this board with examples of killings from all religions, and barbaric acts, from my own to jews and muslims.
You of course, are so hate filled that it pretty much defines who you are.
-- Modified on 4/2/2004 12:07:58 AM
And why couldn't you see it? Remember how Bush assured us that these people would welcome us oh, so much? They'd be grateful to be rid of Saddam, and to have such paragons of democracy as ourselves in their midst, that they'd be eating out of our hand with thanks?
Yes, let's glass the Sunni Triangle, and perhaps turn Mecca into ashes in the meantime. Islam is a wicked religion. But beforehand, impeach Bush. He either lied or was completely, neglegently, ignorant and manipulative. He's not like the snakes that killed these men, but he sent the men into the snakepit telling them it was a rose garden.
to turn a horrid story like this into yet another jab at leftwing "wackos" (as you call them).
Those "inhuman bastards" have a reason to be mad as hell: they're country was invaded by Dumbya's private army. Not that that's an excuse for what happened. What happened is what happened *after* a few Al Queda operatives tossed a grenade into that car (afterwhich the "mob mentalty" took over).
You should know a thing or two about "mob mentality" yourself!
Oh I'm sorry, did I just "call you names"?
Oh well, too fucking bad.
The acts were lothesome. They require a response that isn't lothesome. The military is handling it correctly in my view: find the people that were involved and punish them through a judicial process.
I think we simultaneously have to fight Terrorism and give it no safe haven while simultaneously dealing with the indiginous people like there are no terrorists. We have ample proof that collective punishment of a population doesn't work and never will.
The idea that these kinds of acts should be handled "through a judicial process" just has no effect on terrorists, just look at how much it was tempered under Clinton's attempt to call it a "criminal/police problem"! It continued and escalated.
It is war, I doubt whether any of the above posters have experienced it.
The Sunni Triangle is a hornets nest of Saddam supporters, they were the favored people under Saddam and in general didn't feel his wrath and were rewarded at the expense of the rest of the people. This will continue until we take strong action to stop it, like we did in Afghanistan. We have most of the perps on tape, it has been shown just about everywhere except here. (wonder why that is?) We need to go door to door, take weapons, and deal swiftly with those who participated - kill them, in order to defuse this. The pussy actions associated with the above posters will only fuel them. Anything less and they will never stop.
The proof of collective punishment of a people is the end of the War with Japan in 1945. The actions taken by Truman most historians believe saved over a million lives! The Japanese military had pledged to fight to the last man, but surrendered in less than 2 days. Force works, and it works overtime with cowardly pukes like those who kill unarmed men and women like this episode displayed.
Swift, organized, surgical, and decisive force is the only way to stop these thugs.
I'm not sure what constitutes an lothesome act when your home is invaded. I've never been to war and never want to - however if my home was invaded I do not know how honorably I would kill to protect my family. I therefore do not judge how anyone defends their country.
... constitutes a lothesome act.
Man how sad...
At least were making the middle east safe for Israel.
Forget Republican and Democrat bickering, that isn't going to solve anything or make things better. We need to seize our country back from those filthy jews who are manipulating us into this mess. This is all about protecting Israel. Not about oil liberation, or terrorism, just removing any sort of threat to that wretched nation.
You have GOT to be kidding! You could NOT POSSIBLY believe what you just wrote could you?
I said this prior to the first Bush getting voted out of office, and I said this prior to the present Bush appointment to office. They will NOT REST until they take Sadaam down and have control of Iraq! Once GW was placed into office I knew we would be attacking Iraq. Whether through lies or deception he had to make daddy Bush proud. Why do you think the majority of people surrounding GW are from daddys admin.? That is right, to finish the job that daddy did not have enough time to accomplish in one term. Why do you think they had to stifle Wolfowitz right after 9/11? They would not let him anywhere near the press for fear he would spill the story.
And you have brought your KKK white supremacist sick ideals into this.
You are correct, it is not about oil, it is not about WMD, it is all about the Bush families hatred toward Sadaam. Now the simple minded wonder does not even realize the trouble he has brought to the USA. GW has NO idea of how to get US out of this turmoil and his administration is too busy trying to squelch the truth to be bothered with rectifying the chaos they have created.
Phil Theju? Oh, yeah, know him well. Fortyish, guy with a beard.
This is perhaps the vilest post I've seen on this board. But at least it was honest. Most of the anti-Semites here prefer the euphemism "neo-cons."
i found a great but long post called the judeo/christian hoax on a ng someswhere but due to the limitations of this great webtv thingie i have , i cant link it and will not copy word for word,way too long. if any1 wants to see or link it i can forward it......it makes for an intresing read , kinda at a few points anti-semetic , but the points it makes are very [email protected]
There's a fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity that seems to escape those who'd paint it as a pack of savages, and that is that is has no central authority. We're used to a Pope, or an Archbishop of Canterbury, etc. No single figure can pronounce what Islam is, or teaches, or give a definitive interpretation to the Koran. Individual Imams make pronouncements for their followers and none may authoritatively contradict another.
wow, what a shame you followedan excellencent post earlier in this thread with a post that deals in nonsense !
Religion is a social/political institute for the control of people thoughts , lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstions , perpertrated through generations of subtle yet persaviseve brainwashing !
so catholics happen to be a bit more organized in thier brainwashing , your friggin point is what???
talk about the wrong place to bring up religion , geez
care to take a look at the so called christian history of rape , pillage and murder according to the christian bible
My point is that Islam, as an entity, does not condone this behavior. I am not an apologist for Islam, or Catholicism, or any other religion. In order to deal with the situation in Iraq, and intelligent person would attempt some understanding of their society and institutions. that leaves you and Bribite out.
Clear?
OUCH , ya done just compared me to bribrite , personal foul 15 yards, honestlly , i dislike that gent
guess your post on relgion went way over my un-intellectual , small , minded brain.....my bad..
That comparison was, indeed, below the belt.
you guys are killin me. ``Ouch, ya done compared me to bribite'' That slays me to no end.
Sorry for the intrusion.
i tend to shoot from the hip w/o thinking sometimes , i also apologize for my previous post.......do enjoy your posts