The news is reporting that there has been a video broadcast of the execution of eleven Iraqi soldiers. They`re saying that the video shows at least one beheading and many execution style shootings.  

 In Gitmo, if a prisoner is walked thru the compound with his hands and feet shackled the world is disgusted and there is a huge outrage over the treatment of the prisoners. In Abu Ghraib the world screams to high heaven about the horrible abuse brought on the prisoners who were photographed naked in unflattering positions.

 You can bet the farm that if something like what happened to the Iraqi soldiers happened to the prisoners in our custody there would be a stampede to the microphone in the hallway of the United Nations.

 Where are they now? Where is their support in stopping these animals? Where is the understanding by the anti war crowd that the people we`re fighting are being fought for a very good reason.

 If we left the region as they wish do you think the terrorism would stop? I don`t. On the contrary. I think it would embolden them and encourage more of the same for any one of the many disagreements they have with our lifestyle.

 Personally, I really don`t care how we came to be there right now. I`m just gratefull that finally these animals are being confronted. The fact that we`re fighting them there and not here is a huge plus. It`s their wish and a goal they hold dear to kill those that don`t believe as they do. If our actions breed more of them then that`s just the way it goes. Anyone who`s capable of the things their recruits are need to be confronted sooner or later.

That you ``don`t care how we came to be there right now'' is exactly what GWB counted on.  GWB doesn't care how we got there either !!!!  

And who are the animals - The terrorists or just Iraqis and Muslims in general.  Do you make a distinction ?  

It's not surprising how a War on Terrorism became a War on Iraq.  Sickening, but (sadly) not surprising.

And before you tell me I'm some sort of leftist wussie cause I'm not so gun-ho about kickin ass now and taking names later let me just say I support a War on Terrorism.  What we have here today is a failure to THINK.  I may be knee-jerk about much/most/all of the issues important to me, but I'm not knee-jerk about OTHERS going to ANY War.

You are drinking the Koolaid, buddy!

This act is NOT AN ACT OF TERROR!  It is an act of insurgency.  These people were soldiers and representatives of the state, BOTH LEGIT TARGETS if you are fighting the occupation and the americans.

Do I think it is a bad thing- of course.  But in a war, soldiers are fair game- in combat or on the crapper.

No insurgents ever signed the Geneva accords, so they are not bound by them!  The insurgencies that do follow them are to be commended, but that cannot be expected.  with no facilities to keep prisoners, what are they going to do with them.

And as for your bizarre extrapolations- it is quite likely that for every die hard Jihadi fighting us, there is a die hard Baathist and a regular guy who just hate being occupied as well!  

There are reports of 100,000 Iraqui civilians being killed by US in Bush's War for Oil. 1,100 of our soldiers have died for Halliburton.   Israeli Defense forces massacring Palestinan civilians.  Bush refers to war criminal Ariel Sharon as a man of peace.  Where indeed is the outrage?

Insurgency, Geneva accords, what are you talking about? Why do you make excuses for the behavior they exhibit? I`m talking about people that will saw thru a living persons neck until his head is torn from his body...get it? It`s terror if it`s you it`s about to happen to you or if you`re the family watching it.

 The only thing with merit in your comment was....Do I think it is a bad thing- of course.... Even that sounds pretty weak. Is that all the outrage you can muster? You ought to apply for a job as a U.N. ambassador.

 I don`t give a shit about whether or not it`s allowable because they haven`t signed on to some agreement. I said their animals to fight the way they do and it puts them at a huge advantage over civilized governments. I want the whole world to speak out. God knows they haven`t got the stomach to put their ass on the line to stop it. Like most times there`s been real conflict in the world, it`s up to the U.S. and some brave allies to squash it. I think the number one reason the rest of the world falls silent is because they are scared to have to make the tough decision to do what`s right for fear of terror in their backyard. That`s the point... this terror shit works on the weak. It needs to be shut down no matter what the sacrifice.

And apparently few of them hava basis in fact.

1.We do not treat prisoners anywhere close to how terrorist do because we are simply more humane than them.  They are blood thirsty animals and with the right resolve, will be hunted down and killed as such.

2.People that felt that we should not have entered Iraq are not necessarily the "anti-war" crowd.  I feel that we entered before we had to, if ever, but I also think that there is such a thing as a good war and they should be fought.  Now that we are there, I would like to see the stupid tactical mistakes that have happened there and are still happening stop happening.

3.You know more than I and all terrorism experts do about where terrorists that will attack us are now.  My assumption (and I will call it that) is that there are many terrorists that will carry out the next strike against us on our soil already in this country and they are not leaving unless they are exposed.  I do not realistically expect them to catch a boat or plane to Iraq to fight us there.  That would be stupid of them, because;
  A.They would get killed and be sent off to have their 50
    virgins.
  B.If they were lucky enough not to get killed in Iraq, we
    would have the goods on them if they ever attempted to
    reenter this country.  Not a good situation for them to be
    in if they want to carry out their "missions".

    An asymetric enemy does not follow the same rules as we do, or even behave in a fashion that we view as rational.  For you to attempt to contrast their actions to ours and look for outcry because of their actions is somewhat futile.  The only concern should be whether an overwhelming percentage of US citizens feel that our actions are right and that their own safety is being protected.  From reading on this board and reading about and listing to people's thinking across the nation, there is no consensus in the US - only division.

It might well be futile to look for outcry from the world but to have it would be helpful.

The anti war people I speak of are the extreme pacifist`s who seem to believe in such things as peace above freedom. Peace comes easily to a country who`s people do what they`re told. Personally, to me, freedom is far more desirable than peace.

 I believe that no matter what our policy is in the region and no matter how many times we give in to the demands of the radicals we`re fighting, they will not be satisfied. If it`s not a dislike for our presence in Saudi Arabia or our support of Israel it would be something else. We don`t see things as they do. They won`t except that. They want to live as they demonstrated in Afghanistan. Remember the Talliban? Remember the oppression? Remember the thought police?

 In my opinion this is just the beginning and we could very easily find ourselves in a very long fight. I wouldn`t be shocked if it lasted decades. But, I think it`s the time to do something about it. It won`t ever be any easier than it is right now. Be honest with yourself. From what you know about the enemy we face... do you think they`ll make peace with the infidels?

 Finally Nicole, Think about this. Although winnable, justifiable, and logistically advantageous are all important to guarantee a victory, would you fight these people to save our way of life and your children’s future if you were forced to do it without that guarantee? Is it important enough to you? I think it`s more than justifiable.

 Now, as for your posts……… You are one very thoughtful and intelligent woman. I enjoy reading what you have to say and I`m never disappointed in your opinions. We think differently on some important subjects but when I read what you and others say and feel I`m impressed with the knowledge shown. We, for whatever reason, sometimes reach different conclusions.  


-- Modified on 10/31/2004 9:03:40 AM

-- Modified on 10/31/2004 9:45:36 AM

We're already at war, right?  The world already knows that they're assholes.  Do you propose that we drop more random bombs just to show that we object?  Perhaps take out the innocent because we can't reach the guilty?  When we do, and create an outrage, do we say to the world, "Where was your complaint when these towel heads took out the twin towers?"  Oh, I forgot they did complain then.  

It's shameful to equate criticism and dissent to unfair persecution.  (Especially when you understate the actions of the side you favor.  It wasn't just that guys were in irons at Gitmo that concerns the world.)  I've already dissented against Islamic fundamentalists.  My nation is at war with them, a war that I support.  I can't get further in dissent than warfare.  
   
My dissent with my country is mild by comparison, but for good reason you hear it louder:  I don't vote in Iran, and I can't speak there.  So speech here about Iran is a wasted effort.  I vote only in the USA, and my vote and speech affect the policies of the USA.  If I truly did not love the USA, I would live elsewhere, voting with my feet.

BTW, if America did to prisoners what was done to Iraqi soldiers there would be worse than a stampede to microphones, there would be a panic in world.  Because it would mean the Islamic Fundamentalists have won.  That's the real reason why the violations of rights at Gitmo brings criticism and concern, as cracks in America's resolve about it's own rights are apparent.  

And what you want to do now is hand them complete victory.  Very shameful.

/Zin

Sense of Clarity. Thank you, Zin.