with point 13. Are you saying anyone who cannot speak English is not allowed to view a game where the national anthem is played, because they can't sing it in English. I'd preferred one to at least sing it in their native tongue than not sing at all. There are many first generation Hispanic, Chinese and Japanese women in my area, who live very sheltered, traditional lives, and who have no need to learn English, but have sons and daughters that participate in sports, on all levels. Yes, I would prefer that they learn English, but I feel no compunction to "kick their asses" if they don't.

Oh, and this is from a Squid Tweet

and trust me, not every member of the armed services is a hero, and not every one deserves my (or your) respect.

I believe in freedom, if someone were to chastise me for not being flag waving, jingoistic, pseudo patriot, I would be the one doing the ass kicking.

Flag waving does not equal patriotism, the same as church going does not equal moral behavior.

I served to protect a "free" country, not one where where symbolic acts of patriotism mean more than real ones.

Just remember, I am a veteran, so by your own line of reasoning, you need to "pay the highest amount of respect to me"

I did my time, I served my country, I pay taxes, make a six digit payroll every month, and feel no need to be lectured by anyone as to how I show my pride for being an American. The flag is a fucking piece of cloth, it's the freedoms we enjoy that are worth fighting for, and that includes the freedom to make our own choices, and express them as we see fit.

Copying and pasting the words of others without giving credit to the author (ala Trannyboy) gives the impression that the words (and thoughts) are yours.

Whether you penned it, or copied and pasted someone else's thoughts, I still vehemently disagree with it.

You asked for open discussion, you got it. lol

Wow----lecturing us about the obvious----like we're a buncha regressive children------honor our vets----kinda like saying murder is wrong or honor our fathers & mothers.

Lady, my Dad is an 88 year old navy WW2 combat vet--------of course I honor him---do I have to be told by you or your "messenger" to do this ?

Also, I think the pledge of allegiance is bullshit-------  I don't talk or keep a hat on, but I choose not to recite it----my 1st ammendment right------would you deny that, change the U.S. into a dictatorship & FORCE me to say it?! Wotta load of jingoistic horsehit !

"Patriotism is the last vestige of a scoundrel"--------Samuel Johnson

I think the photo below is QUITE appropriate-----


-- Modified on 10/14/2010 9:36:46 AM

But since I'm going on hiatus I figured why the fuck not.

1) I have, and will always have refuse to stand or recite the Pledge and the National Anthem. While I appreciate the melody of the Russian-written National Anthem, the message of both contains a jingoistic message that I don't agree with.

The words, "I pledge allegiance" is contrary to the very idea of liberty and freedom.

It's also really ridiculous to expect an atheist as myself to say "under God".

I always thought that a more appropriate National Anthem would be "America the Beautiful".

2) Burning a flag is my right as an American. Anyone who tries to take that right from me, will find that this liberal also happens to believe in the 2nd Amendment.

3) Veterans should be respected. What's more, they should be given support for their service. I am thankful every day that liberals like myself saw fit to pass the GI Bill after WW2, over the protests of jingoistic conservatives.

Skipping ahead to

9) If anyone met my mother, you'd think her wearing combat boots were pretty apt. At 75 she can still kick ass.

10) A buddy of mine went into the Marines, and played drums in my old band. We never called him "Jarhead", but we did call him Private Pile. He rather liked this title.

11) Our nukes keeps our ass from getting kicked. Sorry, that's just reality.

12) That's complete horseshit, and even the Founding Fathers would tell you so. Did our soldiers give minorities in this country Civil Rights? Or give women the right to vote and choose their own destinies? No, PROTESTERS did that. From Martin Luther King to Hellen Keller, your own rights were given to you by them. The next time you go to the voting booth Sexy Carolina, thank feminist communists like Keller for giving you that right.

Furthermore, you should thank Thomas Jefferson for penning the rights of the freedom of press, speech, and peaceful assembly. You should also thank him for penning the words: "Congress shall make NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion." That includes the religion of blind jingoistic nationalism.

Let me get my five bucks worth, and possibly prove to Pri that I am indeed going soft.

I agree with almost of your post. I absolutely hate jingoism, and the unmitigated gall that Christians have to think that their brand of patriotism is somehow superior to all others.

Veterans should be respected for their service, but not idolized as heroes anymore than Obama, or Bush or any other politiician should automatically be given respect because of their office. Respect is earned on an individual basis, not because you belong to a certain group.

The military is responsible for protecting our rights from outside forces, our rights from within are quite a different story. We have as much to fear from religious fanatics, intolerant racists, and other homeground forces that want to limit our freedom as we do from communism or Islamic terrorists.

As to our nukes keeping us safe, that is only a small part of it. While our manufacturing output is dismal, the one thing we still make, and make well is shit to kill people. Our military industrial complex is unrivaled, as is our armed forces, especially our navy which is able to project our might worldwide. Nukes only keep us safe from nation states like Russia and the PRC, and to a lesser extent countries like Iran and the DPRK.

Now please make good on your promise, and I look forward to hearing from you in a year or two. rofl

One other thing, my standing as a veteran also gives me the right to reject jingoistic flag wavers, especially those chickenhawks who never served themselves as the falst patriots they truly are. Very few veterans consider themselves heros or feel entitled to anything but basic respect for their service. My generation of veterans would have been happy to simply not have been spit on upon our return.

when he went on posting hiatus.


You two have more in common than you realize.

are the ones who call all members of the military "heros". Their opinion could not be further from the truth and takes away the individual heroics and sacrifices made by the true heros of the world.

Some asshole in the quartermaster, who simply couldn't find a job in the private sector is not a fucking hero. He doesn't deserve condemnation, but he certainly isn't entitled to "hero worsip" either.

I do believe in the ideals that founded this country, but I have nothing in common with those who seek to muzzle those that they disagree with, except "Willyholics", they get a pass from me. rofl

necessarily unpatriotic to burn the flag when you are engaging in political speech.  If you "kick the ass" of someone burning the flag in protest you ironically are violating one of the very principles the flag stands for - the right to dissent peacefully no matter how unpopular your position.

1. The next time you see any adults talking (or wearing a hat) during the playing of the National Anthem - kick their ass.

2. When you witness, firsthand, someone burning the American Flag in protest - kick their ass.

3. Regardless of the rank they held while they served, pay the highest amount of respect to all veterans.  If you see anyone doing otherwise, quietly pull them aside and explain how these veterans fought for the very freedom they bask in every second.  Enlighten them on the many sacrifices these veterans made to make this Nation great.  Then hold them down while a disabled veteran kicks their ass.

4. If you were never in the military, DO NOT pretend that you were.
Wearing battle dress uniforms (BDUs) or Jungle Fatigues, telling others that you used to be
'Special Forces,' Collecting GI Joe memorabilia, might have been okay when you were seven years old, now, it will only make you look stupid and get your ass kicked.

5. Next time you come across an *Air Force* member, do not ask them, 'Do you fly a jet?'  Not everyone in the Air Force is a pilot. Such ignorance deserves an ass-kicking (children are exempt).

6. If you witness someone calling the Coast Guard 'non-military,' inform them of their mistake - and kick their ass.

7. Next time Old Glory (the US flag) prances by during a parade, get on your damn feet and pay homage to her by placing your hand over your heart.  Quietly thank the military member or veteran lucky enough to be carrying her - of course, failure to do either of those could earn you a severe ass-kicking.

9. 'Your mama wears combat boots' never made sense to me - stop saying it!  If she did, she would most likely be a vet and therefore would kick your ass!

10. 'Flyboy' (*Air Force*), 'Jarhead' (*Marines*), 'Grunt' (*Army*), 'Squid' (*Navy*), 'Puddle Jumpers'(*Coast Guard*), etc., are terms of endearment we use describing each other.  Unless you are a service member or vet, you have not earned the right to use them.  Using them could get your ass kicked.

11. Last, but not least, whether or not you become a member of the military, support our troops and their families.  Every Thanksgiving and religious holiday that you enjoy with family and friends, please remember that there are literally thousands of soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen far from home wishing they could be with their families. Thank God for our military and the sacrifices they make every day.  Without them, our Country would get it's ass kicked.

12. It's the Veteran, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press.

It's the Veteran, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.

It's the Veteran, not the community organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.

It's the Military who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag.

Therefore, if you are a reporter, poet, or community organizer, YOU deserve to get your ass kicked.

AND ONE MORE:

13. If you ever see anyone singing the national anthem in Spanish - KICK THEIR ASS.

Just posted it for open discussion  

and that's why I mentioned I am not the messenger...
But I did want open discussion
Being a Vet, myself, I wondered how others might feel.
also..it was sent to me with no author...and I felt I left out the most offensive part.
If you want an argument, you won't get one from me.
lol

I am a veteran with an honorable DD-214, so Ms. Carolina, even if you don't like my opinion, you should respect it by your own definition.

The military in which I served included a variety of people -- some of whom were worthy of respect, and others, thankfully few, who were scumbag pieces of crap.

I swore my oath to the Constitution of the United States. I agreed to follow LAWFUL orders -- which I interpret to mean orders consistent with both the letter and spirit of the Constitution. My loyalty is to the Constitution and its Spirit; not to some pledge cooked up by Congress, and not even to some government. And right now, to be perfectly frank, I have decided that the thing I can do that is most consistent with the intent of this nation's founders is work to destroy the union; which may bring me into conflict with its military.

I do not agree with the pledge of Allegiance and believe it completely contradicts the principles underlying this nation.

And while I am a huge fan of ass-kicking, I do not agree with kicking the ass of people simply because they disagree with me or may even disrespect me.

I served to protect your freedom. If you want to wear a hat or burn a flag go ahead. It a free country. Use it.

a way for the establishment to keep the cannon fodder in line. Gives the unwashed masses rules to live by so they won't rebel. Think about it.

I was US 55824xxx on my DD-214. I don't always stand during the National Anthem. Best use I ever saw of the flag was drapped around a hot escort the 4th of July. Sure looked better than drapped over the body bags at Siagon airport.

Isn't it funny how restricting someone freedom for some people is the best way to a free society.

Just for the record kicking ass with a B.A.R. isn't fun, but a lot of us did it. We killed all those people just because a bunch of politicians wanted a war. Now they think I should stand with my right hand on my heart during the Star Spangled Banner. Fuck You and your phoeny partoric mumbo jumbo.

You don't have the right to dictate or question what I do.

"I feel sorry for you because you have no love,
no love for the 10,000 soldiers who died at Valley Forge in the winter of 1777-78 to give birth to this nation."

Maybe you missed this thread Breaker.

http://classic.theeroticreview.com/discussion_boards/viewmsg.asp?MessageID=122184&boardID=39&page=

"A nation represented by a flag that embraces us with freedoms we live and thrive. The colors are white because we fight, blue because were true and red, red for the blood we have shed."

What did George Carlin say? I consider the flag a symbol, and I leave symbols to the symbol-minded.

"You must also have no love and appreciation for the uplifting spirits of freedom from those freedom fighters that marched at Selma, Little Rock and the Lincoln Memorial. The aches and pains this country have suffered has built our character."

Yes, I have quite a lot of appreciation for the Civil Rights movement. I consider Martin Luther King, Jr., Malcolm X, and Huey Newton to be heroes of mine. What saddens me most is that the Civil Rights movement has been sanitized for white America. But if you've ever read some of King's speeches, such as "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" or "Beyond Vietnam", you see precisely where King was coming from.

To quote King from "Beyond Vietnam":

"A true revolution of values will lay hands on the world order and say of war: "This way of settling differences is not just." This business of burning human beings with napalm, of filling our nation's homes with orphans and widows, of injecting poisonous drugs of hate into veins of people normally humane, of sending men home from dark and bloody battlefields physically handicapped and psychologically deranged, cannot be reconciled with wisdom, justice and love. A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death."

I couldn't have said it better, and it's as true today as it was back then.

"I'm curious did you ever study American history?"

I think anyone familiar with my posts here know that I'm a US history nerd.

"Please help me understand, why is the small gesture of removing your hat such a sacrifice for you to do? I really like to know."

I don't because I can. Freedom means nothing if you're too afraid to practice it. If you're too afraid to practice it, then by definition, you are not free.

no love for the 10,000 soldiers who died at Valley Forge in the winter of 1777-78 to give birth to this nation. A nation represented by a flag that embraces us with freedoms we live and thrive. The colors are white because we fight, blue because were true and red, red for the blood we have shed.

Red was the color of the blood of the 600,000 men and women who died in the awful agony on the Civil War battlefields of Gettysburg, Shiloh, Ft. Sumter and Antietam. You have no love for the sacrifices your great grandfathers, grandfathers, grandmothers made during World War I and World War II at Iwo Jima, Midway, Normandy, and on the factory floors of Youngstown. You have no love for those that protected us from communism in Korea and Vietnam.

You must also have no love and appreciation for the uplifting spirits of freedom from those freedom fighters that marched at Selma, Little Rock and the Lincoln Memorial. The aches and pains this country have suffered has built our character.

My dad said: "whom you honor will determine your character". You are free to choose whom and what you honor, for after all this is a free country. I'll choose to honor the sacrifices made for me by standing at attention, hats off, with my hand over my heart when the National Anthem is played. Please help me understand, why is the small gesture of removing your hat such a sacrifice for you to do? I really like to know. I'm curious did you ever study American history? Are you simply....... a butthead?


-- Modified on 10/14/2010 9:00:56 PM

[

-- Modified on 10/14/2010 9:27:03 PM

I haven't read Jabbar's piece, but King was following the civil disobedience model utilized by Gandhi. I suspect that if the entire movement did so, then the Civil Rights movement would have been a failure.

Malcolm X's ideas were a little more straight forward. "Freedom for everybody, or freedom for nobody". The protests of the late 60's were successful because they were often violent and destructive. This worried conservatives quite a bit, and you can see this in the writings of Irving Kristol. For those who controlled the status quo, the choice became rather clear. Give these people what they want, or let the nation descend into chaos.

Incidently, this is also why the modern anti-war movement has been unsuccessful. The protests have been peaceful.

King was frequently not free to speak. This is why he was put in jail in the first place. It was an attempt to silence him. His refusal to shut up is why he was able to speak.

As an atheist, there's not much in the Gospels that I have a problem with, especially the Synoptic Gospels. It's pretty clear to me that the values that Jesus preached (assuming the guy ever existed) are not much different from the values I hold. I think we should govern as "the last [the poor] shall be first, and the first [the rich] shall be last." I agree that for the rich to be perfect (or without guilt) that they should give everything they have to the poor.

Setting scripture aside, I've always thought the the freedom to believe how you choose to believe is a fundamental right as a human being, even if you are delusional.

I gotta tell ya Breaker, I'm not a big fan of hats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cUlW_CNdYI

Customs are bullshit. Sorry, they just are. Their main purpose is to instill meaningless compliance and submission to authority. It seems the only purpose of complying with such a custom is to not hurt the feelings of the symbol-minded. I guess I care more about freedoms than feelings. If you think that makes me a jerk, or childish, fine. I can live with that. What I can't live with is dumb shits telling me what to do when there's no good or logical reason to do so.

Please read Kareem Abdul Jabbar's "Brothers In Arms: The Epic Story of the 761st Tank Battalion". Mr. Jabbar asserts that a major factor in the success of the Civil Rights movement was the discipline learned from soldiers, marines, and sailors that served in World War 11. Discipline was necessary when being assualted by dogs and water cannons. When protesters were being carted off on the cafeteria counter one by one, they also maintained discipline.

Plus you forget a very important fact, Martin Luther King Jr. was able to write letters. The letters were published. He was free to speak. Yes, I know it was wrong he was jailed but at the same time, our country learned from our mistakes and we moved forward. This movement could only have succeeded in a country that values freedom protected by a constitution, men and women have spilled their blood for. Yes, the symbol if that is what you want to call it, is a flag with red, white and blue strips.

In addition, another reason Martin Lurther King Jr. was able to be successful was because he was free to practice his religion. Have you ever thought of that? He was free to practice his form of worship to his Creator.

Now as far you not removing your hat during the National Anthem. Your answer is trite and childish. "I don't because I can." You can because of the sacrifices of the many fallen. If you do not understand this, then we simply disagree and yes I do question your love for our country. There are so many ways  to practice you freedoms. Choosing to disrespect a tradition that means so much for so many us, tells me your a jerk.

God, you come across as such a martinet lemming.
Perhaps the lack of "discipline" you bemoan would be rectified if there were a military coup taking over the current govermenment.

Jesus--as to the pledge of allegiance,I don't recite it because it contains "God" & I'm an atheist-----also, it reeks of the "loyalty oath" many had to take during the hysterical anti-communist Mccarthy period in the U.S. during the 50's, to prove they weren't subversives. If you think someone not reciting the pledge isn't a loyal American, or showing disrespect,then you're dumber than I thought you were.

I greatly respect veterans, particularly combat veterans ( my Dad is an 88 year old WW2 combat vet ),but I'll make the exception in your case.
Many of your brothers in arms would be revulsed by the dictatorial, jingoistic crap that you're preaching.

I would suggest you give your fatigues to Goodwill, substitute a black or brown shirt & start a reconstruction project rebuilding Hitler's bunker in Germany.





-- Modified on 10/15/2010 9:19:51 AM

...is what I call backbone Pria. good job!

"If you "kick the ass" of someone burning the flag in protest you ironically are violating one of the very principles the flag stands for - the right to dissent peacefully no matter how unpopular your position."

I have no desire to kick ass of flag burners.
I prefer pelting them with eggs.
I don't want to hurt the wimpy doodles.
I only shower them with raw eggs.

those stars and stripes are standing marines, soldiers, sailors and airmen who have sacrificed their lives for my freedoms. These freedoms have been  and  are protected by a constitution by those who swore to protect and preserve. As far as your 'loyalty oath", I remember when I was being processed and prior to my induction into the Army I was asked if I was communist. It was a questionaire designed to throw out undesirables. I was also asked if I was a homosexual.

As far as discipline. A man needs discipline, they may not want it and may even reject it, but we all want and need discipline. Teamwork which the civil rights movement excelled in, teamwork is another word for discipline. In combat, without discipline the punishment is death. I'll leave that subject of discipline at that.

I never said not reciting the pledge of allegiance is saying your unloyal American. I would however question your love for our country and your appreciation for those that have sacrificed their lives for our country. Yes, it does hurt when I see people talking, texting or wearing their hats when the National Anthem is being played. I see it all the time during sporting events here in the Bay Area and yes it saddens me.

I cannot nor would I attempt to force anyone to stand attention, and place their hand over their hearts when the National Anthem is played. This small gesture should come from your heart not from a barrel of a gun. Yes my friend, I do thank God, their have been men like your dad, when the call for duty was sounded, they answered.

You had to post something over here that you knew I would have to agree with. lol

Fuck you anyhow!!!

but on this point, and this point only, I agree with you

I don't want to be on the same side as you, even when you're right. lol

BTW, I didn't take down any of your posts today on the GD board, I might be an asshole, but I'm not a liar and I promised I wouldn't censor anything you posted. Blame the "mean mod" for that one.

I'm a Viet Nam era Vet,just wondering why the OP, showed me a lack of respect?
As the saying goes,"put your money where your mouth is"!

Your right,i am a fucking asshole!!!,,LOL!
Peace brother!
I was a anchor clanker and a jarhead,i have no problem with being called either! (to the OP)
I think the OP needs to learn how to treat her "friends",  veteran,or not! (that's a whole other subject)

Thank you!

And yes I am a vet. I know plenty of vets who share my feelings.