My, but you like to put words in someone's mouth! If you read my post carefully, I never said "military men can't be secular," and that's a ridiculous statement on its face. My point was simply that Nasser, Sadat and Mubarak all were military men and your original post made it seem as if they were civilians. I also never said, or even implied, the Camp David accords had anything to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union. You use language sloppily and read carelessly, so its hard to take you seriously.
Even so, I actaully agree with your statement that the US has a history of propping up dictators with bribes and it bears bitter fruit in the long run. Iran is a good example. So try not to characterize my views. I actually stand more on the liberal side but am fundamentally a pragmatist.
As for your suggestion that my post was "verbatim" what an WSJ reporter told CNN, please post the link because I've never seen it. My words are my own. My guess is you read the article to which you refer as carelessly as you read my post. The last thing I need to do is steal other people's words so I can win a debate on a site for guys who like to fuck hookers. I am happy to count myself among them, but, c'mon, this ain't exactly the the debate society for The Foreign Policy Association.
Finally, as to GaG, he can take care of himself and I've crossed swords wtih him on occasion. But that doesn't mean he's always wrong.
Anyone share my sentiments ? One one hand, good that Egyptian people have cast off a dictator that was brutal & extremely corrupt ( I hear Mubarak has more $ stashed than Bill Gates ) & are striving toward Democracy. OTOH, fear once that elections are held, Egypt could morph into
an Iranian styled Muslim theocracy which would be disastrous for world peace.
Thoughts ?
There's a huge power vacuum in Egypt and almost any outcome is possible. The Muslim Brotherhood is making all the right noises but anyone who takes them at their word is naive. What gives me hope is that the revolution was led by young, secular and tech-savvy people in their 20s and 30s. They won't stand for any more dictatorship and won't let their movement get highjacked by fundamentalists, I hope. Now we'll all just have to wait and see. But it will be an uncomfortable time, until there are free elections, a new, long-term government is formed, and the military steps out of the business of governing.
Now, everyone is a Egyptian expert. Most don't even remember who was the Egyptian President before Hosni and who was the first Egyptian president.
Until the last 3 decades, both presidents before Hosni was secular leaders. Both were well known international arena both pursued an independent foreign policy. Only Hosni became a tyrant and an US stooge.
Go read some Egyptian history before buying into the stories spun news organizations in the US. They don't Egyptian history, either. They went to the same damn schools like did.
My are we touchy! I can't imagine what in my post managed to offend you or make it sound like I thought I was an expert. If I'm an expert, it's only compared to you. Your "analysis" is actually ignorant and not even based on historical facts. First of all, both the so-called "secular" leaders before Mubarak were military men. Col. Nasser overthrew King Farouk and became a Soviet stooge, far from "independent." They built the Aswan Dam for him and the entire Egyptian military was armed with Soviet weapons and doctrine. Sadat inherited that military from Nasser. Between the two of them, they lost two wars to Israel. Mubarak was no dummy, when the Soviet Union collapsed he became a US "client" and the Egyptian army was transformed into a US-armed force. Perhaps you're the one who should "read some Egyptian history." My assertions, by the way, are easily checkable and I suggest you do that before spouting more drivel.
especially from AF, he missed the entire point of your post in his haste to show how smart he is, and managed to fuck up his "facts" in the process. Nothing new there. lol
BTW, I agree with your assessment of the situation. Nothing is for certain here, except for the fact that Mubarek is history. Everything else is wide open.
You think Military men can't be secular. Another reason they can't be is because they became Soviet stooges and the Soviets built the Aswan dam. Peace treaty between Israel and Egypt was signed in 1979 known as the Camp David accord by President Sadat and Prime Minister Menachem Begin, and Soviet is no where near collapse, read up history.
How many US stooge are in the World today who are tyrants and dictators? How much money is spent on propping them up for decades? Why? All of them are US stooges. You are right on one count, that is, if President Sadat wasn't assassinated, Mubarak would not have become the US Stooge for the last thirty years. Fundamentally, the $1.2 billion military aid was a bribe for signing the peace treaty with Israel and basically US bribed Egypt on behalf Israel every year and that is the fucking transformation you are talking about. Lord knows how much bribe was given to Israel not to attack Egypt. Foreign policy based money, bribe and propping up dictators across the world and not based universal principles is what causes problems in the long run and bankrupts US foreign policy in the end.
No one said you are an expert but your post is exactly what the WSJ journalist told in CNN interview, I mean verbatim
As far as GaG, he likes to firecrackers in the fire while has absolutely nothing to say. He just picks a few and attacks them incessantly and believes someone cares about what he posts, NAUGHT. I actually know this moron personally, met him once or twice and I know how much of an "Ass kisser" he is in small groups.
My, but you like to put words in someone's mouth! If you read my post carefully, I never said "military men can't be secular," and that's a ridiculous statement on its face. My point was simply that Nasser, Sadat and Mubarak all were military men and your original post made it seem as if they were civilians. I also never said, or even implied, the Camp David accords had anything to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union. You use language sloppily and read carelessly, so its hard to take you seriously.
Even so, I actaully agree with your statement that the US has a history of propping up dictators with bribes and it bears bitter fruit in the long run. Iran is a good example. So try not to characterize my views. I actually stand more on the liberal side but am fundamentally a pragmatist.
As for your suggestion that my post was "verbatim" what an WSJ reporter told CNN, please post the link because I've never seen it. My words are my own. My guess is you read the article to which you refer as carelessly as you read my post. The last thing I need to do is steal other people's words so I can win a debate on a site for guys who like to fuck hookers. I am happy to count myself among them, but, c'mon, this ain't exactly the the debate society for The Foreign Policy Association.
Finally, as to GaG, he can take care of himself and I've crossed swords wtih him on occasion. But that doesn't mean he's always wrong.
It is a bit of an improvement over what we normally see around here. I hope you hang around. LOL
There are no gods or revolutions! LOL
but for a leftie, you do seem to have a pretty firm grip on reality. You will find that is not always the case here, from both sides of the aisle.
You will also find some rather well informed, intelligent, and articulate posters on this board. Unfortunately AF is not one of them. lol
Just like other boards on TER, none of this is life and death. You will also find that I am not always in "attack mode", but I have a very low tolerance for stupid people, and we do have our share of stupid people here. Your tolerance level may be higher than mine.
BTW this doens't mean I plan on cutting you any slack, on this or any other board, but I do welcome you to our little leper colony on the internet, somehow I think you will fit in around here just fine, and IMO at least, I am happy to see you here. Now go fuck yourself!!! (sorry, I have a reputation to uphold lol)
1) Re my "cross swords" reference, that was not the kind of sword I meant! LOL. If I had, I would have referred to yours as a butter knife. LMAO!
2) Lefty? OK, I'll cop to that, though I just like to think of myself as a pragmatist with a morality (kinda like a Liberal who's been mugged!).
3) If you think I'm more tolerant of stupid than you are, you need to get to know me better (though why you'd want to is still a mystery, LOL!)
4) Thanks for your kind welcum but FYATHYRIO!
(translation: Fuck you and the horse you rode in on!) LOL!
I prefer to ride ho's. lol
Pragmatism is something in short supply on the left side of the aisle. It's one of the reasons I usually find myself on the conservative side of most issues that have to do with money or international affairs. I would love to be a leftie, I'm sure it feels good to be so selfless, but they only seem to be that way with "my" money, never their own.
If liberals would ever get a serious dose of pragmatism, I would find myself leaning much further left. I do admit, I hate aligning myself with religious pukes, but the alternative is usually worse.
(1) First of all, both the so-called "secular" leaders before Mubarak were military men.
What does it supposed to mean?
(2) Mubarak was no dummy, when the Soviet Union collapsed he became a US "client" and the Egyptian army was transformed into a US-armed force. Perhaps you're the one who should "read some Egyptian history.
The point is Egypt started receiving money after the Camp David accord, hence it was not Mubarak. The State of Emergency was proclaimed after Sadat was assassinated and Mubarak kept it for thirty years and rigged every election.
The problem here is you are literal and doesn't analyze what you are writing. Generally, when people read something, they analyze it to correlate backward and forward. I will take your post for its literal words and nothing more.
By the way, you seem to incapable of carrying on debate without insulting the other and it is most common with those who get their news stories form MSM and formulate their views using MSM views.
Anyhow, there are only very few on this board that can debate a topic or an idea without insulting the other side who happen to question or disagree with what they wrote.
You can call idiot, ignorant, and any and all words that would make you feel superior but the truth will always be different wouldn't it?
1) "What does it supposed to mean?" Now there's a well-turned phrase!
Well, gosh, it's supposed to mean what I said. You wrote about Mubarak's predecessors as if they were secular types, and I just wanted to point out they were military men like Mubarak. A simple clarification, really.
2) "Egypt started receiving the money after Camp David."
Yes, I know that. What is it in what I wrote that made you think I was unaware? Not only do you put words in my mouth, but, apparantly, thoughts in my head that were not there.
3) "The problem here is you are literal and doesn't analyze what your are writing."
Huh? Please translate this and maybe I'll respond.
4) "You seem to incapable of carrying on debate without insulting the other."
Funny! My original post to which you objected -- in a rather condescending way -- was just a simple observation and, to my mind, not even very controversial. Certainly not unpleasant. But you saw fit to respond in an unpleasant and provocative way. So don't blame me for name calling.
As to the specific words, I plead guilty to saying your assertion was "ignorant." I never used the word "Idiot," an omission I now regret.
PS: Please improve your use of the English language, if you can. Some of your points are almost incoherent.
You are self absorbed. I don't care what you posted. You got offended because I said, your post sounded like the WSJ journalist I heard on CNN. Then you called me ignorant. Now I need to improve my English.
Really, I don't give a hoot as to what you know or don't know.
OK Mr. Gift to the World!
Done.
Go be self ABORBED finicky!
Well, gosh, it's supposed to mean what I said. You wrote about Mubarak's predecessors as if they were secular types, and I just wanted to point out they were military men like Mubarak. A simple clarification, really.
2) "Egypt started receiving the money after Camp David."
Yes, I know that. What is it in what I wrote that made you think I was unaware? Not only do you put words in my mouth, but, apparantly, thoughts in my head that were not there.
3) "The problem here is you are literal and doesn't analyze what your are writing."
Huh? Please translate this and maybe I'll respond.
4) "You seem to incapable of carrying on debate without insulting the other."
Funny! My original post to which you objected -- in a rather condescending way -- was just a simple observation and, to my mind, not even very controversial. Certainly not unpleasant. But you saw fit to respond in an unpleasant and provocative way. So don't blame me for name calling.
As to the specific words, I plead guilty to saying your assertion was "ignorant." I never used the word "Idiot," an omission I now regret.
PS: Please improve your use of the English language, if you can. Some of your points are almost incoherent.
Most of the time I just skip over your posts because they are written so badly. I don't plan on running against Priapus as "Chief of the Spelling Police", but your posts are almost unintelligible at times.
Keep on skipping, skippy.
I don't know whether to be disgusted or amused at your inability to read simple English. Again, I was NOT referring to your inane reference to my sounding like a WSJ reporter (which, of course, you have been unable to substantiate). I was referring to my inocuous original post! You even quote me above but aparantly didn't even read what you quoted! As for my suggestion you improve your English, let me quote your last response:
"Go be self ABORBED finicky!"
ABORBED? Seriously! You gig me for criticising your English with a mis-spelling! Do you even read what you post before hitting "post message?" I suggest you try it before giving me any more shit.
This is a serious suggestion. Before commenting further, please go back and read my original post, then read your response to it. Perhaps I'm being over-sensitive but your reply to my rather bland initial post was needlessly unpleasant, condescending and critical, suggesting that I go back and read Egyptian history, for one. Pull that kind of crap and you should expect to hear back from anyone.
And with that, I am done.
At least you'll have someone more stimulating to argue with. AF is rather pathetic as you are beginning to see for yourself.
The other good thing about this board is that there is no asshole moderator to pull your posts if you go "too far" lmao
Can't wait! No, actually, while you may disagree, I find him a little too predictable and juvenile, not to mention his playdate gaperjenny.
I doubt that AF can claim that, even if he used the celsius scale. lmao
At least you guys give the peanut gallery something to be amused by. lol
Frankly, my dear, I don't give a shit, and am putting all of them on "ignore." We'll see how long that lasts when the excrement hits the oscillating ventilator. If I were a betting man, I'll admit I'd bet against me! LOL!
at any odds. You are having too much fun to put any of them on ignore. After a while the fun wears thin and you'll find yourself talking about them instead of "to" them. Some people really are too stupid to talk to, but rattling the bars at the monkey cage is a human weakness. Just make sure you don't end up wearing any of the the feces they fling at you.
There really are some people here worth having a dialogue with, and then there are the trolls that are here simply for our amusement. They are like little children. To be seen, but not heard. lol
...and besides, all the feces around here is electronic. It don't really stink like the real thing! LOL! If you let yourself get upset with any of it, you deserve it, right?
Isn't that great.
Is that all? Mr. Self Absorbed?
Excellent post, AF! By making it extremely short you even managed one that is coherent and absent of gramatical or spelling errors! A gold star will be added to your Report Card! Mom will be so pleased!
-- Modified on 2/13/2011 5:58:53 PM
My mission in life is accomplished now. I will go resign from my job tomorrow because of your approval. Sure everyone is very appreciative of Spelling and Grammar police. You know there are blogs and numerous boards needing your expertise.
Do you do the same for Text Messaging?
-- Modified on 2/13/2011 5:58:53 PM
eliminated by the secret police and the Egyptian military. This is an example of $1.6b in US tax dollars at work. At $310m a day this "revolution" is a burden on Egypt's fragile $162b gdp economy. The Egyptian capitalists will rely on its police state tactics implemented by US backed enforcers to resolve any remaining political issues.
All this could be a window dressing to placate send the so called revolutionaries home by saying we will take care of all for you.
If that happens, hopefully the revolutionaries will come back better organized next time. Not having a solid leader to speak for them was not good.
Have wait and watch. After all the Military Council wielding power are all Mubarak cronies. US military does have significant influence over Egyptian military, which way would the Administration tilt, we have to see in the months ahead.
I can very easily see a repeat of Iran circa the late '70s. I hope Obama doesn't fumble things as badly as the POTUS he most emulates, but I am not optimistic.
I am not so provincial as to think that the entire world revolves around the US, but we wield a lot of influence, both positive and negative, and the actions of the POTUS greatly effect the fates of nations. Egypt has an excellent opportunity to establish a "true democracy" in the ME, lets hope that opportunity is not squandered.
and if the whole thing blows up in our face BFD, the resulting $200 bbl oil will make me rich beyond my dreams. rofl
That's what fucks up everything. All we have to do is stand up for universal rights of everyone. All the enemies we have made is by either dictating terms or by supporting dictators.
If we had given asylum to Hosni, things would have blown up in our face, Thank fully, we didn't. The big difference was that, Iranian revolution wanted to hang Shah. Egyptians wanted Hosni to just go away, a peaceful revolution. Hosni is still in Egypt and the people are going back to their life.
I understan talking heads talk about Muslim Brother Hood all the time but I don't believe Egyptians are going to elect them though. Egyptians are much more secular and have been secular historically. The young people poured into the street said they want to be secular and progressive democracy.
I congratulate them on their victory and there is lot more resentment in the ME than we understand. Was listening to an interview on BBC. They ere interviewing someone in bar in Palestine and he said 2 down and 20 more to go. That says it all.
I think finally the Internet is opening people's eyes and ears. I wouldn't surprises if more tyrants and dictators start loosing power. I say, God Speed.
I think finally the Internet is opening people's eyes and ears. I wouldn't surprises if more tyrants and dictators start loosing power. I say, God Speed.
-- Modified on 2/13/2011 12:48:27 AM
I am talking about if the House of Saud fell. Read his quote 
I think finally the Internet is opening people's eyes and ears. I wouldn't surprises if more tyrants and dictators start loosing power. I say, God Speed.
-- Modified on 2/13/2011 8:03:03 AM
knows how this will affect us in the short and long term. I guess it's safe to say I'm much more optimistic than Glenn Beck, and don't see things going the way of Iran. In fact, I can imagine this will destabilize Iran, and bring about positive change there, even more quickly than if Egypt had not gotten rid of Mubarak.
-- Modified on 2/12/2011 3:51:33 PM
There wont be any democracy in Egypt as long as the capitalist class has control of the world economy.
-- Modified on 2/12/2011 3:52:29 PM
and the greed is only getting bigger. Capitalist class is on a tear to gut the earth and they will move on to other planets.
Capitalism is the new form slavery imposed on mankind. Look around, everyone is running around, wanting this and that, stressed out, drinking energy drinks and fast food to keep them going so they can have more of the same and killing themselves in the process. Life under capitalism.
It's happened in hostory so many times that a cause with good roots goes bad...
Teh Russians ousted the Czar, but got Stalin...
Dont you just love that "gangsta capitalism" that they practice in the RF? It's very edgy.
...but this movement in Egypt seems to have the qualities of a real democracy being born. I doubt that people will lean in the direction of theocracy. The Muslim Brotherhood may have a seat at the table in Egypt once the dust all settles, but they will only be one group among many. And if any lessons can be learned from history that might apply to this, democracy will have the effect of making the Brotherhood less radical over time.
Otherwise I woulda made a fortune at the track-------LOL !
What you say could very well happen; Egypt could become a secular democracy, starting a welcome "domino effect" across across the ME ( no thanks to GWB's "efforts", DESPITE what that "jingoistic martinet" Breaker Morant says.
God, I dislike that guy. )
OTOH, ME politics are very dicey & Egypt could go theocratic, also triggering a most unwelcome "domino effect".
But, for the sake of world peace, I hope the scenario you posted in your thread comes to pass.
It's predicting it "correctly" that's the rub. lol
There are many potential outcomes in Egypt, not all of them are favorable for us, or for them for that matter.
When the Shah of Iran was sent packing by the ayatollahs, the progressive Iranians thought they would have an invite to the sit down.....didn't happen, did it. The mullahs and ayatollahs made the 'new rules', and the progressive/democratic leaning Iranians got on the short end of the stick. They're still doing that dance, but there are undertones of upheaval, same as in Egypt. Especially among those under age 40. I have several Iranian friends that can't wait for a regime change so they can return to their homeland. Interesting times, and a bit dangerous too, for some. Many say that the current rulers would rather see the country destroyed, rather than give up their political/religious power.
I give thanks every day to George, Benjamin, Thomas, John, Robert, et al, for giving me the opportunity to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
when flagwaving comes from you, very acceptable---------as for that putz Breaker Morant-----LMAO !