Politics and Religion

Re: Another Ridiculous comparison this time
willywonka4u 22 Reviews 1473 reads
posted
1 / 24

...that means that we ought to eliminate all subsidies for fossil fuels.

Priapus53 1297 reads
posted
2 / 24

Can't you see it, folks ? True love blooms on P&R ! Scuttlebutt I hear is that these guys have LONG phone conversations with each other. SO nice that a "connection". has been made. :) Ahhhh, spring is here & young men's fancies turn to love--------:)

Who'da thunk it ?---------LOL !

-- Modified on 3/10/2011 6:44:47 AM

quadseasonal 27 Reviews 1977 reads
posted
3 / 24

Prissypussy "Scuttlebutt I hear is that these guys have LONG phone conversations with each other. SO nice that a "connection". has been made "


 What is it about people agreeing with each other , that detours your mind into self expressions of Homoeroticism??.
The only scuttle"butt" you hear, is in your mindless, ass for brains.
 Your covert masculinity is shining bright today.

SinsOfTheFlesh See my TER Reviews 2173 reads
posted
4 / 24

LOL Why didn't you take Willy to task for that just a few threads below?

Did you read the entire post? The 155 year old example just kicked off the thread, it was by no means the sum total of the work. Maybe you should have read a little more while you scrolled down to the bottom so you could hit "reply".

WannaBeBFE 3 Reviews 3881 reads
posted
6 / 24

Here's a good analysis of the idea that "investing" in green technology by the government will help create jobs and help rebuild the economy:

To understand the fallacy of the government creating green jobs through subsidies and regulations, we have to refer to the writing of French economist Frédéric Bastiat. Back in 1850, Bastiat explained the fallacy that underlies such thinking in an essay about the unseen costs of such efforts. He called it the "broken window" fallacy.

The fallacy works as follows: imagine some shop-keepers get their windows broken by a rock-throwing child. At first, people sympathize with the shopkeepers, until someone claims that the broken windows really are not that bad. After all, they "create work" for the glassmaker, who might then be able to buy more food, benefiting the grocer, or buy more clothes, benefiting the tailor. If enough windows are broken, the glassmaker might even hire an assistant, creating a job.

Did the child therefore do a public service by breaking the windows? No. We must also consider what the shopkeepers would have done with the money they used to fix their windows, had those windows not been broken. Most likely, the shopkeepers would have plowed that money back into their store; perhaps they would have bought more stock from their suppliers or hired new employees.

Were the windows not broken, the town would still have had jobs created by the shopkeepers' alternate spending, plus the shopkeepers would have had the value of their original windows. Because the value of the windows was destroyed, however, they--and the village as a whole--have been made poorer.

It is well understood, among economists, that governments do not "create" jobs; the willingness of entrepreneurs to invest their capital, paired with consumer demand for goods and services, does that. All the government can do is subsidize some industries while jacking up costs for others. In the green case, it is destroying jobs in the conventional energy sector--and most likely in other industrial sectors--through taxes and subsidies to new green companies that will use taxpayer dollars to undercut the competition. The subsidized jobs "created" are, by definition, less efficient uses of capital than market-created jobs. That means they are less economically productive than the jobs they displace and contribute less to economic growth. Finally, the good produced by government-favored jobs is inherently a non-economic good that has to be maintained indefinitely, often without an economic revenue model, as in the case of roads, rail systems, mass transit, and probably windmills, solar-power installations, and other green technologies.

To understand how this works in practice, I now turn to four European countries that went hog wild for renewables, while singing the praises of green jobs: Spain, Italy, Germany, and Denmark.
The author continues to back up theory with evidence by examining the experience of those countries, where every government dollar in spending destroyed at least 2 in private job creation.

And of course, what free market economists say always happens when government subsidizes industry did happen in Spain:
And then, there is the matter of corruption. As Bloomberg Businessweek reports, "An audit of solar-power generation from November 2009 to January 2010 found that some panel operators were paid for doing the 'impossible'--producing electricity from sunlight during the night."[8] Further, it appears that the solar power producers "may have run diesel-burning generators and sold the output as solar power, which earns several times more than electricity from fossil fuels." Nineteen people have been arrested in Spain's "clean energy" sector on charges ranging from bribery, to unsavory land deals, to issuing licenses to friends and family, to simple construction fraud. As the Guardian reports, "When Spain's National Commission for Energy decided to inspect 30 solar gardens, it found only 13 of them had been built properly and were actually dumping electricity into the network."
This is just as Ayn Rand described in her book "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal", Chapter 7, "Noted on the History of American Free Enterprise". She describes the corruption caused by government subsidies in the railroad industry:
The degree of government help received by any one railroad, stool in direct proportion to that railroad's troubles and failures. The railroads with the worst histories of scandal, double-dealing, and bankruptcy were the ones that had received the greatest amount of help from the government. The railroads that did best and never went through bankruptcy were the ones that had neither received nor asked for government help. There may be exceptions to this rule, but in all my reading on railroads I have not found one yet.

It is generally believed that in the period when railroads first began to be built in this country, there was a great deal of useless "overbuilding," a great many lines which were started and abandoned after being proved worthless and ruining those involved. The statists often use this period as an example of the "unplanned chaos" of free enterprise. The truth is that most (and perhaps all)of the useless railroads were built, not by men who intended to build a railroad for profit, but by speculators with political pull, who started those ventures for the sole purpose of obtaining money from the government.
History repeats itself.

Fair_Use 29 Reviews 1488 reads
posted
7 / 24

Since you cited Rand, I am countering with her Liberal counterpart.

In the Kermit The Frog song, It's Not Easy Being Green, he argues in the last verse:

When green is all there is to be
It could make you wonder why, but why wonder why
Wonder, I am green and it'll do fine, it's beautiful
And I think it's what I want to be

anonymousfun 6 Reviews 2070 reads
posted
8 / 24

Pulling up something written 155 years ago to make an argument is beyond absurd logic. Some folks believe life in past centuries were closer to utopia and would like go back to it while soaking in on modern convenience.  

Private sector is not utopia and unfettered private sector will destroy societies piece by piece and we are pretty close to getting there, if we continue on the present trajectory.

Today, 400 individuals wealth is equal to 155 million people of this country and they are working hard to make it equal to the 300 million people we have. Give another 5 or 10 years.

What we are dealing with is absurdity and name calling, i.e branding. No one is against private business, all they want business to do is play by the rules and play with social conscience which is taught in business 101.

I live in a state where Natural Gas was deregulated about 15 to 20 years ago on the premise of competition will lower cost and benefit consumers. Instead, I pay $20/month for meter rental, $10 month for customer service which, I haven't used once in ten years. Net result, I pay $360 more a year for the same damn service and that is $360 in additional taxes in my book. There are abundant examples like it. One can say, deregulation created high-paying call center jobs (may be out sourced now to Philippines).  This private business logic goes right along with your original reasoning of government not getting in the way private business. By the way, before deregulation, the Gas company was providing excellent service and there was no public out cry.

One more thing, the public paid for those damn meters when the parent company was regulated through rate increases they got. I haven't seen my gas rates go down yet and the 10 or 20 gas marketeers that got in at the beginning  went belly up, leaving just two. Instead of having a regulated monopoly, now I have duopoly who can screw me unfettered.

holeydiver 113 Reviews 1336 reads
posted
9 / 24

Kermit said that because he IS GREEN. It would have been nicer to quote someone red, yellow or gold. Or something more colorful like that.

Besides, that song is decades old. It can't possibly be relevant today. Things have changed. Motor boats have better gas millage, for just one example.

Posted By: Fair_Use
Since you cited Rand, I am countering with her Liberal counterpart.

In the Kermit The Frog song, It's Not Easy Being Green, he argues in the last verse:

When green is all there is to be
It could make you wonder why, but why wonder why
Wonder, I am green and it'll do fine, it's beautiful
And I think it's what I want to be

Fair_Use 29 Reviews 1399 reads
posted
10 / 24

I suppose you want PBS to fire Kermit now!  What do you have against green?  He's only a frog.  Leave Kermit alone!

People who are green blend in with lots of ordinary things and tend to get passed up.  Green can be friendly-like too.  

Those are facts!

holeydiver 113 Reviews 1389 reads
posted
11 / 24

You are barely in the double digits. Plus I don't see any black girls on your review list. I don't see any green puppets either. So that completely invalidates your opinion. I fuck em all. Any color. You bend over a puppet and I'll tap its ass too.

Posted By: Fair_Use
I suppose you want PBS to fire Kermit now!  What do you have against green?  He's only a frog.  Leave Kermit alone!

People who are green blend in with lots of ordinary things and tend to get passed up.  Green can be friendly-like too.  

Those are facts!

holeydiver 113 Reviews 1320 reads
posted
12 / 24

I recommend you reserve a jaccuzi suite. And lets not invite FU this time, OK?

Posted By: Priapus53
Can't you see it, folks ? True love blooms on P&R !

Who'da thunk it ?---------LOL !

Fair_Use 29 Reviews 1499 reads
posted
13 / 24

Just because Pus is the read P&R contributor doesn't mean you can treat him like a gerbil and stick him up your ass whenever you want! You have lost all credibility!

allthebetter 1716 reads
posted
14 / 24

I have to work with LEEDS all the time and so called green design/technology.

I have a saying.

Green technology is where they "take the green from me and give it to someone else".

Sounds like a Government program doesn’t it?

The USGBC has coerced government officials into legislating another vastly inefficient spending program for the purposes of primarily enriching the consul itself. And of course the recipients of it's contributions.

Take a look at their balance sheet.

allthebetter 1446 reads
posted
15 / 24

I have to work with LEEDS all the time and so called green design/technology.

I have a saying.

Green technology is where they "take the green from me and give it to someone else".

Sounds like a Government program doesn’t it?

The USGBC has coerced government officials into legislating another vastly inefficient spending program for the purposes of primarily enriching the consul itself. And of course the recipients of it's contributions.

Take a look at their balance sheet.

-- Modified on 3/10/2011 10:18:44 AM

WannaBeBFE 3 Reviews 1481 reads
posted
16 / 24

Don't you think that would be consistent with my free market philosophy?

You think that such a proposal would be some kind of serious challenge?

WannaBeBFE 3 Reviews 1193 reads
posted
17 / 24

Wow. So much absurdity crammed into one post.

1: How long ago something was written has no bearing on its truth. NASA still uses Newton's laws of motion to guide spacecraft to other planets. The same is true of the broken window fallacy. It still tells us the truth that when government intervenes in the economy, the benefits always come at a cost. You need to look at not just the immediate consequences on some people, but the long term consequences on all groups. This is as true now as it was then.

2: Nobody is expecting a utopia, at least not the free market advocates. The opponents of free markets prove themselves to be closet utopians by using any failure of free markets to create utopia as an excuse to intervene.

3: There is no evidence that free markets would destroy societies. In fact, it is violations of free markets that destroy societies. ENRON was only able to perpetrate its corrupt schemes because of heavy government regulation.

4: What we have now is heading towards destruction, but not because of any free market. What we have is heavy deficit spending, central banking pumping massive amounts of new money into the economy at low interest rates, bailouts, regulation of the financial sector through the SEC, all sorts of pro-homeownership policies, and on and on and on and on.

Thats only 1/3 through your post. I can keep going, but its not worth my time.

-- Modified on 3/10/2011 1:26:45 PM

WannaBeBFE 3 Reviews 1117 reads
posted
18 / 24

Here is some more scholarly work on the subject, debunking the myth that government spending will create "green jobs":

Abstract:    
A rapidly growing literature promises that a massive program of government mandates, subsidies, and forced technological interventions will reward the nation with an economy brimming with green jobs. Not only will these jobs improve the environment, but they will be high paying, interesting, and provide collective rights. This literature is built on mythologies about economics, forecasting, and technology.

Myth: Everyone understands what a green job is.

Reality: No standard definition of a green job exists.

Myth: Creating green jobs will boost productive employment.

Reality: Green jobs estimates include huge numbers of clerical, bureaucratic, and administrative positions that do not produce goods and services for consumption.

Myth: Green jobs forecasts are reliable.

Reality: The green jobs studies made estimates using poor economic models based on dubious assumptions.

Myth: Green jobs promote employment growth.

Reality: By promoting more jobs instead of more productivity, the green jobs described in the literature encourage low-paying jobs in less desirable conditions. Economic growth cannot be ordered by Congress or by the United Nations. Government interference - such as restricting successful technologies in favor of speculative technologies favored by special interests - will generate stagnation.

Myth: The world economy can be remade by reducing trade and relying on local production and reduced consumption without dramatically decreasing our standard of living.

Reality: History shows that nations cannot produce everything their citizens need or desire. People and firms have talents that allow specialization that make goods and services ever more efficient and lower-cost, thereby enriching society.

Myth: Government mandates are a substitute for free markets.

Reality: Companies react more swiftly and efficiently to the demands of their customers and markets, than to cumbersome government mandates.

Myth: Imposing technological progress by regulation is desirable.

Reality: Some technologies preferred by the green jobs studies are not capable of efficiently reaching the scale necessary to meet today's demands and could be counterproductive to environmental quality.

In this Article, we survey the green jobs literature, analyze its assumptions, and show how the special interest groups promoting the idea of green jobs have embedded dubious assumptions and techniques within their analyses. Before undertaking efforts to restructure and possibly impoverish our society, careful analysis and informed public debate about these assumptions and prescriptions are necessary.
-- Modified on 3/10/2011 1:32:45 PM

willywonka4u 22 Reviews 1599 reads
posted
19 / 24

Libertarians like to talk a good game on this, but when push comes to shove, they're more anxious to deep throat GaG's cock than any escort on this board. Hell, Charles Koch co founded the Libertarian Cato Institute, and yet I don't see him refusing tax payer subsidies from his own oil business.

anonymousfun 6 Reviews 1656 reads
posted
20 / 24

Physics (Newton's law) vs. opinion, now that is a grand comparison. Like I said, no one is opposing free market, it is the free market operates.



Posted By: WannaBeBFE
Wow. So much absurdity crammed into one post.

1: How long ago something was written has no bearing on its truth. NASA still uses Newton's laws of motion to guide spacecraft to other planets. The same is true of the broken window fallacy. It still tells us the truth that when government intervenes in the economy, the benefits always come at a cost. You need to look at not just the immediate consequences on some people, but the long term consequences on all groups. This is as true now as it was then.

2: Nobody is expecting a utopia, at least not the free market advocates. The opponents of free markets prove themselves to be closet utopians by using any failure of free markets to create utopia as an excuse to intervene.

3: There is no evidence that free markets would destroy societies. In fact, it is violations of free markets that destroy societies. ENRON was only able to perpetrate its corrupt schemes because of heavy government regulation.

4: What we have now is heading towards destruction, but not because of any free market. What we have is heavy deficit spending, central banking pumping massive amounts of new money into the economy at low interest rates, bailouts, regulation of the financial sector through the SEC, all sorts of pro-homeownership policies, and on and on and on and on.

Thats only 1/3 through your post. I can keep going, but its not worth my time.

-- Modified on 3/10/2011 1:26:45 PM

anonymousfun 6 Reviews 1070 reads
posted
21 / 24

interpreted by someone else. Now that is grand, suppose I am supposed to believe what I see on TV as well.

May be you should read original work instead of third party interpretation. Indeed, if you throw stone throw a glass window, it will break (force of the throw and size of the stone does matter) and really, it does create job (if you want go down that irrational path) because galls has to be made, transported, put on a store shelf, sold, bought and replaced. That doesn't mean people are going go around and start smashing glass window. Very simpleton argument to prove a complex issue.

Nixon--->Wage Control/Recession--->Impeach--->didn't do much--->Reagan--->Tax Cut----->Tax Increase--->Highest Deficit Spending in History---->H.Bush-----> tried to reduce& lost---->Clinton-------->
Balanced the budget---->Left surplus------>W. Bush--------> More tax cut-----Two Wars------> Spend like drunken sailors------>let Wall Street run wild------->Bailout------->large deficit-------->Left Obama holding the bag------> Obama------Jury still out.

In a nut shell, Republicans did lot to increase deficit  and only a Democrat actually balanced the budget and left a surplus. So, in modern times, Republican argument of Fiscal discipline is BULL SHIT.

Do I need to understand the BS Window Analogy, no, I do not. It looks like the so called conservatives need to understand it, because they don't get it. No need to read rubbish when the facts are in front of you. LOL all you want, it is because of hysteria, not understanding.

WannaBeBFE 3 Reviews 827 reads
posted
22 / 24

There is no contradiction between advocating the end of subsidies and accepting them when they are offered.

As Ayn Rand explained:

Since there is no such thing as the right of some men to vote away the rights of others, and no such thing as the right of the government to seize the property of some men for the unearned benefit of others—the advocates and supporters of the welfare state are morally guilty of robbing their opponents, and the fact that the robbery is legalized makes it morally worse, not better. The victims do not have to add self-inflicted martyrdom to the injury done to them by others; they do not have to let the looters profit doubly, by letting them distribute the money exclusively to the parasites who clamored for it. Whenever the welfare-state laws offer them some small restitution, the victims should take it . . . .

The same moral principles and considerations apply to the issue of accepting social security, unemployment insurance or other payments of that kind. It is obvious, in such cases, that a man receives his own money which was taken from him by force, directly and specifically, without his consent, against his own choice. Those who advocated such laws are morally guilty, since they assumed the “right” to force employers and unwilling co-workers. But the victims, who opposed such laws, have a clear right to any refund of their own money—and they would not advance the cause of freedom if they left their money, unclaimed, for the benefit of the welfare-state administration.

-- Modified on 3/11/2011 5:49:15 PM

WannaBeBFE 3 Reviews 1035 reads
posted
23 / 24

Bastiat's ideas about looking at all the consequences of something on everyone rather than just the immediate consequences on one person, and his ideas on the seen and the unseen are not opinions, but basic economic principles, as solid as any fact.

WannaBeBFE 3 Reviews 1269 reads
posted
24 / 24

Who said anything about conservative vs. liberal? (BTW, Clinton didn't balance the budget. It was congressional gridlock that did it. Republicans controlled Congress.)

As for the broken window fallacy, if you want to understand anything in economics, you need to understand the broken window. Is a metaphor used to explain the principle of "What Is Seen and What Is Not Seen".

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