Politics and Religion

Not at all. What it establishes is that Rumsfeld set us on the slippery slope
sdstud 18 Reviews 10368 reads
posted

Which led to the catastrophy we now have in Iraq.  Rumsfeld and Myers do not need to be PERSONALLY culpable in the CRIMINAL sense, to have gravely harmed this nation, and to, at the very least, need to be fired in order to try to establish some accountability in the eyes of the rest of the world.

And, BTW, I thought that you said that the article was ridiculous.  Are we to now assume that you find the part of the article exonerating Rumsfeld from personal culpability to NOT be ridiculous, but the rest of Hersh's article is ridiculous?  How disengenuous can you get?

All of you should be familiar with who Seymour Hersh is now.  He essentially busted the lid off of the Iraq prisoner mistreatment debacle.
    He is now back with an article that says that Donald Rumsfield approved the policy framework that eventually led to the prisoner abuse.  While Rumsfield may not have intended to have the abuse events that took place happen, if he approved a policy that laid the basic framework that created the environment for the abuse, then he must either resign or Bush must fire him.
    If the information that Herse is basing his article on is verified, then the damage to this country will be enormous, and someone's head must roll.  The head rolling must start with Rumsfield and end where ever it ends.
    I have listened to and read past articles by Hersh.  He seems to be highly familiar with the Middle East and often reports on polictical and social issues that are happening there.  I have generally viewed his reporting as reasonably balanced, although I have not agreed with his conclusions at times.

... his connections in the National Security community are very deep.  What he describes is a battle royal going on between the CIA and the Pentagon.  The Pentagon essentially setup it's own operation on interrogation of high value prisoners and fucked it up.

RLTW10384 reads

Hersh's article is constructed around information from two un-named, former intelligence officials, repeat - "un-named" and "former". Here's some text from the article:

"Fewer than two hundred operatives and officials, including Rumsfeld and General Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, were “completely read into the program,” the former intelligence official said. The goal was to keep the operation protected. “We’re not going to read more people than necessary into our heart of darkness,” he said. “The rules are ‘Grab whom you must. Do what you want.’" -end quote.

Less than two hundred people were in the know on this plan? If you include Operators (the ones on the front lines) and their controllers, this would mean that maybe 20 people in the Pentagon, CIA, NSA, and DIA knew about the operations (including the SecDef). Right!

Hey, we're only going to tell 200 people in the direct chain-of-command and in Delta Force, but we'll also include a clerk and a bunch of lower enlisted soldiers that were disciplined for prisoner abuses at other camps. That's the hallmark of a successful mission right there! Hooah that, Captain!

This is one of the most ridiculous claims that I have ever heard. We might be using harsh interrogation techniques on Al Qaeda (we should), but to lamely link that with the Abu Ghraib prison and a few low level MPs and clerks is spreading the shit just a little too thick.

RLTW

Because it relates to a supposedly HIGHLY classified program.  In all honesty, if I were the Republicans, I'd be totally panicked about this story.  If it in fact is true, it means that Bush HAS NO CHOICE BUT to fire Rumsfeld, based on his own statements about tracking this up the chain of command and punishing those responsible.  Failure to do so, if the story is proven true, then sticks DIRECTLY onto BUSH himself.  I think that it's instructive that John McCain and John Warner did NOT respond to this on the Sunday news shows as though it were the ridiculous bit of fantasy that YOU'D like to claim it is.  THEY realize the potential ramifications of this.

The fact is, IF this sticks, (and I admit that it is too early to tell if it will) it's a smoking gun right up Bush's rear end relating to his hypocrisy in dealing with the Arab world, and it's probably unrecoverable for Bush, in terms of salvaging the Iraq operation.  It remains to be seen as to whether it does, but it is by NO MEANS as easily dismissed as you'd like to claim it is.

And, BTW, Hersh has way too much credibility in the intelligence community to simply dismiss the story out of hand.  If he doesn't actually have a tracable story here, he's probably blown his career out of the water.  And if he DOES have such a story, at the very least, he has blown Rumsfeld's career out of the water, and depending on how Bush handles it, Bush is next in line to touch the 3rd rail.

Using apparently different sources than those Hersh used for his article, have essentially confirmed the essence of the story that Hersh wrote.  I read the account by the Boston Globe, which appeared to have been a subdued, controlled accounting of the chain of events and decisions that ultimately led to the conditions that ended in abuse of war prisoners.
   It appeared that the policy originally had some reasonable basis to it in that it allowed people like terrorists to be handled a little more roughly than soldiers from a country's military would be handled.  Interestingly, the policy was apparently opposed strongly by the great majority of military lawyers and apparently even the Judge Advocate and later by Colin Powell.  The concern that Powell apparently expressed was that by removing the cover of the Geneva conventions from even terrorists would ultimately subject US soldiers and citizens to torture and/or murder.  Citizens and soldiers have been killed by terrorist while in captivity as recently seen with Mr. Berg (an earlier situation took place in Lebanon where a uniformed US military deplomatic officer was captured and ultimately murdered, so it seems that if Powell's concern ultimately become reality, the difference will be in the numbers of US citizens who are tortured or murdered while in being held by hostile forces.
    It is difficult to tell how this prisoner abuse issue will play out, but one immediate consequence is that it is leaving us more isolated from allies than we have probaly ever been in my lifetime.  We can easily live without some of those allies but we cannot operate effectively witout the cooperation of others.  Even Great Britain, which has been stout in it's support maybe headed on a different path, there is information circulating that Tony Blair will step down as head of the Labor party and by default as the British PM.  Blair's fate was probaly sealed before the abuse scandal broke, but the abuse situation does not help him at all.  Blair follows Spain's former PM, who like Blair was strong in his support of us.

RLTW9927 reads

Are you talking about the same Boston Globe that was recently busted for running fake prisoner-abuse porn photos that were provided by a Democratic Councilman?

The idea that the prison abuse scandal has put Americans at greater risk of murder and torture at the hands of terrorists overlooks the obvious; Islamic terrorists are going to kill and torture Americans, Japanese, Italians, infidels in general, whenever they have the opportunity. To argue otherwise absurdly denies the fact that terrorists are murderous goat-fuckers. They do not care about the prison-abuse scandal, other than hoping it damages our efforts in Iraq, they will kill and torture anyway.

And, any "un-named former intelligence official" that speaks of reading people into "our heart of darkness" (spook talk, you know) or claims that the bureaucratic behemoth known as the DOD passed a rule down the chain as simple as "Grab whom you must. Do what you want" was more likely a driver for someone who worked for somebody that might have been important.

RLTW

Surely you jest if you are claiming that Matt Drudge is an honest journalist.  I can't imagine that anyone could be stupid enough to consider Drudge as a valid source of anything.  He's worse than Rush Limbaugh.  Someday it might dawn on you that when multiple independent sources keep coming up with the same stuff on the Bush adminsitration, that they're not ALL lying.

A group of heaven's angles would be lying if what they state does not agree with his perception of reality.  I felt that the Boston Globe reporters that did the article bent over backwards to avoid arriving at any conclusions, they simply reported investigative information that they had gathered.  The number of independent news agencies that are verifying both Hersh's article and that by the Globe reporters is growing every day.  And who trots out to lance swords with them other than Mr. Drudge, what a joke, sort of like a disoriented bird pissing in the wind while fluttering in the path of a speeding tractor trailer.
    Ok RLTW, I await your next flame post, but please try to infuse some reality into it.

Was a regular news article in the Sunday globe, not thie editorial that you linked to.  But now that you want to get to apologizing for printing untrue information, how often has Matt Drudge aplogized for the often cow--- that he prints on the internet?  I have never heard him apologize, maybe you have?
    You should stick to quoting credible news sources that have the guts to apologize when they print unverifiable bullshit.  But of course, you are so emotionally locked into Drudge that you could never bring yourself to feel that anything he prints, regardless of how outlandish is untrue.

RLTW12656 reads

a fucking stupid post. Because I link to a correct picture of the Boston Globe story on Drudge, you authoritatively declare me to be "emotionally locked into Drudge". For someone who claims that personal attacks "make my stomach churn", you sure are quick to throw around shit.

RLTW

RLTW12711 reads

This is from A.M. Rosenthal, former editor of the NYT:

"I do not know if the Iraqis regularly used leashes on prisoners. But they did use poison gas on civilians they wanted to eliminate, like the Kurds.
Strangely, we are uneasy even at the very idea of bringing up the mass Iraqi torture and murder.That is an insult to all those murdered masses of Iraqis, Kuwaitis, Jews, and Iranians.
It is essential that we remember, ourselves, and the young members of the American armed forces know that they are fighting a government that is fascist in organization and in its slavering sadism.
To remember the sufferings of Saddam’s victims is not to diminish the interest in the Iraqis tortured by the Americans....
Since the latest torture story, many editors have failed to present background stories about the millions killed by Saddam.
They worry about being accused of minimizing the brutalization of Iraqi prisoners by Americans, if they recall in print the masses of people Saddam slaughtered.
These journalists are truly embarrassing. They insult all these victims. We should throw roses on their graves. That should not be allowed to weaken our coverage of the horrendous abuse that took place in Abu Ghraib prison."

RLTW



-- Modified on 5/18/2004 10:07:25 PM

And he is gone.  The magnitude of his evil needs to be made public and I am sure that there are certified criminal investigators gathering information on his atrocities that will be used in his war trial.
    So I agree that Saddam should be tried, more than likely will be found guilty and should be taken care of in the way that an average Iraqi would like to see him vanquished.  But because Saddam was evil does not mitigate the fact that by abusing prisoners who we controlled, we gave up a precious few inches of the moral highground that we have valued as the backbone of our existence as a nation.

... the story is just too juicy to pass up.

Hersh usually gets it right.

2sense11548 reads

Indeed, it looks like the CIA, Army and, surprisingly enough, powerful GOP senators (many of whom have been dissed by this administration) want to have a full expose.

RLTW13265 reads

That's a shining example of objective reporting if I've ever seen one:

"Even worse for Rumsfeld and his coterie of neo-conservative true believers who have run the Pentagon for the past 3½ years, three major institutions in the Washington power structure have decided that after almost a full presidential term of being treated with contempt and abuse by them, it's payback time."

Right-on, 2sense.

RLTW

2sense11746 reads

Here's more "liberal-biased" reporting on the putative coverup -- this time from the mouse-house.

Hmm! Isn't ABC News owned by the same corporation that refuses to distribute Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 because it's too political?

RLTW10131 reads

"He said that while he did not see the actual abuse take place, the interrogators with whom he worked freely admitted they directed the MPs' rough treatment of prisoners."

He didn't actually see anything, but he heard about it?
Well, I guess that works!

RLTW

RLTW10945 reads

Just wondering if you noticed that buried nearly 3,000 words inside a 4,500-word article is the following exoneration: "Rumsfeld may not be personally culpable." And farther down near the end was another: "The former intelligence official made it clear that he was not alleging that Rumsfeld or Gen. (Richard) Myers knew that atrocities were committed."

Yet everyone claims that the article shines the light of "truth" on the "fact" that the VileCheneyRumsfeld(tm) knew what was going on at the prison.

I remember another article by Hersh too. In November 2001, Hersh wrote an article that portrayed a Pentagon mission to strike Mullah Omar in Afghanistan as a "near-disaster," completely contrary to the facts on the ground. One error from the story that even a junior New Yorker fact checker should have caught: "The mission was initiated by 16 AC-130 gunships, which poured thousands of rounds into the surrounding area but deliberately left the mullah's house unscathed." There could not have been 16 AC-130 gunships in one battle, since the military has a worldwide total fleet of 21. And claiming the Air Force would stack 16 AC-130's in a suppressive fire mission over a single target area is ridiculous. Hersh even painted a bleak picture, leading the casual reader to believe that the United States might lose the campaign. The Taliban was toppled the next month.

It's a stretch to try and pin the blame for Abu-Ghraib on VileCheneyRumsfeld(tm), Harry. Don't forget about your bet.

RLTW





Which led to the catastrophy we now have in Iraq.  Rumsfeld and Myers do not need to be PERSONALLY culpable in the CRIMINAL sense, to have gravely harmed this nation, and to, at the very least, need to be fired in order to try to establish some accountability in the eyes of the rest of the world.

And, BTW, I thought that you said that the article was ridiculous.  Are we to now assume that you find the part of the article exonerating Rumsfeld from personal culpability to NOT be ridiculous, but the rest of Hersh's article is ridiculous?  How disengenuous can you get?

... I thought it was a pretty good article.  ... And I still respect Hersh and his reporting.  ... And I still believe he is correct more often than not.  

Your quotes are accurate.  they don't change several things:

 - the original black operation was approved by rumsfield
 - it got out of hand and there were no checks in place to stop it
 - Rumsfield was more concerned with keeping this a secret than minimizing the PR
    disaster.
  - the people making this fucked up policy did not understand that they could not
     violate the Geneva Convention with the prisoners in Iraq.
  - the people involved still believe they will get away with it because it is a black
     bag operation.

This asinine stunt can cost Bush the election.  I have already said I am for Kerry.  You should be the outraged individual!!!  You claim to be a student of history and the military and strategy.  Why is it so difficult for you to see that kicking Rumsfield to the wolves makes perfect sense?  Are you so committed to the SecOfDefense that you want to risk seeing the White House go to the Democrats to keep him?  Bush could drop Rumsfield tomorrow and piss on him as he limps out the door and he would not lose a single GOP vote -- you guys have nowhere else to go.  Similarly, Kerry can stand above it all.  The "anybody but Bush" democrats have no alternative choice to Kerry unless they want to "send a message" and vote for Ralph again (don't you wish that paticular pipedream comes true RLTW?).

Go join your compadres on the extreme left.  You and they can go lose for your various "principles".  Maybe you can expand and get some middle east suicide bombers.  You are all soul brothers.  :-))

BTW RLTW, I still expect to win.  I am becoming embarassed with betting over the attentions of a beautiful woman.  Much as I like Nicole, and would love a free evening with her, instead, please send your contribution to an appropriate woman's health charity in your state.  You can get the tax deduction and we will both feel good about it.  :-)

Your Friend, Harry  :-)






-- Modified on 5/19/2004 1:56:20 PM

RLTW11684 reads

I guess we'll have to agree that we disagree, then wait and see who's right.

If you could, please explain what the hell this is supposed to mean: "Go join your compadres on the extreme left. You and they can go lose for your various "principles". Maybe you can expand and get some middle east suicide bombers. You are all soul brothers."
Not sure where you're coming from with that, Harry.

RLTW

..  sometimes you sound like a "true believer" to me.  I don't like doctrinare positions on either the right or left and lump all of them into the same ball.  All we have to go on is these damn notes.  I expect I would feel very defensive if I were in your position and I don't know how I would react.   I don't know you well enough to make such wide ranging critiques about the way you approach things.

My comment was not appropriate and shouldn't  have been made.  I should have dropped that paragraph.  I hope you will accept my apology.

Harry

RLTW11100 reads

I'm not offended easily. I just couldn't figure out what you were referring to with the far-left comment. Most of the time I'm incorrectly accused of being far-right because of my support for the war.

RLTW

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