For those of you who have been members here for a while, you all know that I'm a dyed-in-the-wool liberal.  But I want to step back from liberal/conservative for a minute and just talk about decorum and the direction this country's heading...

I'm not going to debate Obama's policies regarding health care or anything else.  I'm sure that there are people on both sides of the issues who have opinions, all of which are valid and all of which I'm sure contain legitimate points.

But I have to say that I'm saddened and embarrassed by the way politics in this country has been conducted over the last few decades on both sides of aisle in the Senate and House.

Joe Wilson last night was the icing on the cake... In my opinion, he embarassed his party and he embarrased this country in his abject disrepect for the office of the President.  The fact that he apologized then next day, in my mind, doesn't abrogate his responsibility for his actions.  But beyond that, I watched the President's speech and saw republicans sitting in their seats texting on their blackberries and ignoring the President.  How rude and disrespectful of the office.

But what bothers me more is the day-after analysis from people like Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Glen Beck and Sean Hannity.  Every major news organization did their due dilligence to see if Wilson's claims were valid, and all of them confirmed Obama's statement that the health care bill would NOT cover illegal aliens.  But that didn't stop Limbaugh from claiming that Joe Wilson was right, and actually excoriating Wilson for apologizing.  So, if one is to believe Rush, then there is a huge conspiricy among ALL of the "liberal" media (a conservative label), to cover the truth up.

So the point of this post is to ask a question of my conservative fellow hobbyists.  And I'm asking this in all seriousness without any sarcasm or ironic intent and with no desire to embarrass anyone... Its something I really would like to understand.

Do you guys REALLY believe that FOX news is fair and balanced?  Do you really believe that Rush Limbaugh speaks for the majority of republicans?  and do you REALLY believe that Sarah Palin was serious when she coined the phrase "Death Panels" or was just trying to create panic (keeping in mind that Palin supported the REVIEW panels that she now labels death panels)?

And again with all due respect, I'd really like to know if there are any conservatives on this forum who find people like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glen Beck and Ann Coulter to be an embarrassement to the Republican Party?

As liberal as I am, I find that there are some conservative journalists that I like and respect... Joe Scarboro, for instance, in my opinion is a conservative who states his case with intelligence and pragmatism.  I don't usually agree with his point of view, but at least I recognize the points he makes as valid and without hyperbole.  

And there are conservative politicians I respect as well. Bob Dole, who in my opinion could have been president if he had shown his sense of humor during the campaign instead of after it.  Dole gained my respect because he is an old-school politician who knew how to get bi-partisan agreements through congress by making sensible and intelligent compromises without regard for party lines.  And I respected John McCain before he sold out to the religious right during his presidential campaign and spoke at Bob Jones University and chose Sarah Palin as his running mate.  (In fact, I think chosing Palin may have cost him the Presidency).  But regardless of that, I still think that McCain truly follows his core beliefs and truly wants what's best for his country and its citizens.

When I was growing up, journalists reported the news; they didn't create it or politicize it.  Edward R. Murrow and Walther Cronkite should be turning over in their grave today.  

And when I was younger, it seemed to me that politicians prioritized things in the following order: God, Country, Party.  Today it seems on both sides of the aisle that it's: Party, Country, God, with God being moved up in the order when deemed politically expedient.  I find that so sad...

Again, I apoligize for this off-topic rant... but it's just been gnawing at me for a while now, and last night's incident was the straw that broke the camel's back.  Sorry.

-- Modified on 9/10/2009 11:32:42 PM

and this topic must be gnawing at your craw to be venting at this time.

to be writing about this topic at this ungodly hour!

I too, am appalled by the craziness on both sides of the aisle.

I am a retired military man.  I voted for Nixon when I turned 21 back in '68, and I've regretted it ever since.  But compared to the lunacy of the Johnson years, I thought it would get better.

I was a senior at a military academy when I voted for Tricky Dicky, and the ensuing events that led to his ouster in '74 was an embarrassment to the American public, both here and abroad.

I became a Middle of the Roader.  I like to vote for the right person, regardless of the party.  But lately, there have been instances when I've been totally befuddled by the decisions made by our government.

I'ved been through three tours of duty in Vietnam and was in the original Gulf War.  All major mistakes, and both conflicts have cost us over 65,000 lives.  

I abhor Rush Limbaugh, and I can't stand the likes of Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly and the jibberish of Anne Coulter.  They bore me to tears.

One would think, with my background, I would be a staunch Republican and a right winger.  On the contrary.

But I'm confused.  I was all for getting out of Iraq.  But now, we've switched our focus on Afghanistan.  What's the fucking difference?  We just moved our Army east!

Yes, my friend, these are strange times.  But I'm afraid, things are gonna get worst before they get any better.

BTW, I unearthed an old picture of my unit helping out a Navy unit, and in the background was a picture of Admiral Zumwalt's son.  He was a victim of the same Agent Orange that was ordered by his father.  Then Admiral Zumwalt.

This is a crazy fucking world that we live in!

Roy

P.S. - Ed, give me a call sometime!

Please delete my first post.

I accidentally hit the wrong key.

Roy

if there ever was a TRUE indicator of where the Republican Party is heading in this country's future it was that offered by Joe Wilson last night (rude crude incivility at the very least, dangerous hate-mongering at the very worst)

you watch he'll be on Glenn Beck next week (or Rush Limbaugh) as a hero

if the Republican "leardership" had any sense they would get rid of Joe Wilson (however that's done in Congress) to tell the American people we don't stand for this (we don't stand with this guy)

as it is we only got a lukewarm rebuke by John McCain and a scant few others

I don't bother with CNBC. I used to watch Fox but even their general morning show reporters clearly show their bias. When I watch the news I want reporting, not opinion.

Hannity condemned the media coverage and praise for Michael Jackson, yet spent 15 minutes with a panel on his show talking about.. Michael Jackson. Fox is the largest media outlet in the USA yet they position themselves like they are the underdog.

As for the office of the Presidency, I totally agree. Granted, I imagine some of these politicians have finally figured out how to use a cell phone for more than making a phone call and they want to keep their voters "up to date" by tweeting, but disrespect is disrespect. One of the few reasons people want to live in the USA is the fact that we do respect our President's office. Imagine being in Iran right now.

When the Dems lost in 2000 it was "they stole the election." Now that the GOP has lost it's "he's ruining our country."

If you talk about "family values" or making America "strong" again then act like it. The recent Michael Duvall incident is just the latest proof of point. I'd also point to the recent arrests in NJ (which happens every decade in NJ) and the NY State Senate - another embarrassment.

This gets me thinking - which porn starlet would I vote for?

If I want hard news with a minimum of bullshit or bias, I generally watch the news hour on BBC America.

And if I want TRUE insight to the parasitical nature of the relationship between politics and media, I watch the Daily Show with Jon Stewart.  It may be a comedy show, but it really shows the Emperor's New Clothes.  It's sad the the most honest reporting about the hypocritical nature of the media's relationship with politicians comes from a show on Comedy Central.

I used to watch Face The Nation and the other Sunday shows, but I eventually realized that in order to get politicians to come on their show there was an unspoken understanding not to pursue tough questions or real answers.  They pitch nothing but softballs, and when they DO occasionally ask a tough one, they don't follow up when the politician evades the answer.

PM or email me ([email protected]) your number.  I don't have my old phone and lost a lot of numbers...

I know this is probably a bad idea...but as a dyed in the wool conservative, I will offer my view point.  While I believe it is always inappropriate to act like a 3rd World Parliament in our own Congress, I feel that the Dems outrage is phony and rather pathetic. Respect for the office?  Please.  For 8 years, they spewed the most vile, venomous garbage at our President, going way beyond policy disagreement and into the personal, calling him incompetent, evil, dangerous, racist, dishonest, and a few nazi slurs for good measure.  And yes they even heckled and booed him as he gave a speech to a joint session of Congress.  Where were all of you then with your respect for the office?  You were silent because it was your guys being boorish and childish.

And don't forget that Rep. Wilson's outburst came shortly after Obama called Palin (not by name of course) a cynical, irresponsible liar.  Look it up.  It's in the transcript.  It is so beneath the office for the President to stoop to this level.  BUt Obama does it all the time.  He did it with Rush, Hannity, Joe the plumber, etc.  Anyone who disagrees with him is attacked by him or his minions.  Do you remember Bush ever attacking an individual by name?   Now, love him or hate him,  there was a man who had respect for the office.  

You ask if we are embarrassed by Rush, Sean, Glen, etc.  Hell no.  They each have their own styles - they are entertainers as well as commentators. But you will find no better articulator of conservative values than Rush, no one more versed in constituional history than Mike Church, no better analysis of policy than from Sean Hannity or Andrew Wilkow.  Plus there are numerous conservative blogs (Powerline, Ace of Spades for example) that have some of the most well-thought out, well written pieces compared to the lunatic ravings on HuffPost or DailyKos.  So no I'm not embarrassed, I'm damn proud to be learning from these guys.      

Are you embarrassed by corrupt guys like Chris Dodd and Charles Rangel?  Are you embarrased that the Treasury Secretary and the Health and Human Services Secretary don't pay their taxes?  That Van Jones, a man who had been entrusted with 60 billion of our dollars,  believes that Bush planned 9/11, that Republicans are assholes and that green jobs are a pretext for bringing down our evil capitalist system? Are you embarrassed by screechers like Keith Olberman?  Are you embarrassed by nonthinkers like Alan Colmes and Rick Sanchez?  By lightweights like Al Franken, Sean Penn, most of the Baldwin brothers, etc?  Are you embarrased by your own president who disses our allies at every chance he gets and sucks up to tyrants?  

Is Fox fair and balanced.  Well it is a conservative point of view, but the liberals and dems they put on for counterpoints are eons above the quality of conservatives given time on the networks.  Is CNN fair and balanced?  ABC, NBC, the NY or Wash Post?  I won't even ask about MSNBC because we all know the answer to that. Most of the media is so beyond biased that they have truly violated every sense of ethics and integrity that used to exist in newsrooms.  Don't be pissed just because there is one network out there that has a different view, even if it is consistently the highest rated.  

Now don't get me wrong, the right has its issues, and I don't agree with anyone who puts party before country.  

And as to the specific point about the plan covering illegal aliens, there is no provision that I have found in the bill that restricts coverage to citizens.  There is only a residency requirement (30 days) and it is specifically prohibited to ask about immigration status.  Also, the Dems blocked an amendment seeking a requirement of verification of citizenship for coverage.  And La Raza is fully behind the plan.  So in practical effect, this bill will cover illegal aliens.  Even the AP admits this.  It may not specifically says illegals are covered, but if you don't have to prove your a citizen and the govt isn't allowed to ask, that is a backdoor to coverage.  If you insist that illegals won't be covered, then put it in the bill in big bold letters.    

Wow - you guys got me worked up.  And I don't mean any of this as personal attacks against anyone here.  Jsut trying to add a different perspective.  Water under the bridge, now let's all be friends.

I agree with you 100%.  I am an old fashioned Southern liberal and try as I might cannot understand the staunch ideology based politics of the right that have no sense of the common ground or common man and woman.  I want solutions, not lectures.  I want respect for positions and efforts to find solutions.

I really don't understand the parents that would keep their children from listening to the President's speech about education.  When do you overly protect your children to their detriment?  I won't get started on this topic because it will become a rant.

Thank you for bringing this up even if it really belongs on another board, which, by the way, I never look at.

Z

An extraordinary commentary, Ed.  I look at the political landscape and think of the old-style politicians I grew up watching and learning about, from the Conservative side of Barry Goldwater to Liberals like LBJ.  Remember a public service commercial from the '70's showing the Native American surveying the countryside and seeing all the pollution ruining a once-beautiful land?  At the end a tear is falling down his cheek.  The same could be said if those legendary politicians from both parties would see what has become of their once-proud parties.  No doubt, the same tear would fall down their cheeks, too.

Well said Eddie--our political system is indeed in a sad state of affairs.

wehawk

Both parties are so full of shit it's not even funny. Is Fox News bias? Yes. Are the other news organizations bias? Yes.  Why does everyone get surprised
when Fox news leans right when the others lean left? No other news sources reported how Obama's environmet Czar guy had public stated he believed the US governement had planned 9/11. Is there anything more disrespectful than that?

And what about people revering to the protests against the healthcare reform as mobs? That is what I call being an American. People, showing their displeasure in a peaceful way and getting the government to change thief position.

Did people call war protests or the civil rights movements mobs?

It's easy to point the finger when republicans do something like this, but where is the recognition of things like when  Laura Bush and Newt Gingrich praised and defended Obama's speech to school children and calling the controversy ridiculous?

The fact that the democrats have complete control and still can't pass the healthcare reform they want is comforting to me because it shows that people still have a say.

In the end of the day, wether you are a Republican or a democrat, all you care about is lining your pockets and supporting the ideas of those who give you money. They don't give a shit about people, only getting re-elected.

I think Obama has been hit hard by the responsibility of the president and how diffcult it is and how you have to look at the country as a whole.  But he has behaved very admirably and has now stopped listening to all these senators and is listening to the people put around him. Everyone, both Republicans and Democrats are complaining about Obama. That tells me he is not pandering to them and doing a great job.

Most Republicans are Republicans because they are for lower taxes and less government intrusion. Unfortunately, the ones on TV are for all this other shit no one cares about.

I am so disgruntled with both parties that I honestly don't even give a shit anymore.

That no matter which side of the fence you're on, we are heading in a bad direction.

Bush was booed during a state of the union address, so what? You notice when a Republican act up it's all over the news, but when Charlie Rangel can't do his taxes, it's OK. Black Panthers at the polling place, just look the other way. Van Jones?

When the government seeks to control your life to the extent it is planning, it's time for introspection and getting back to reality. We can't afford any of Obama's programs. The stimulus bill wasn't written by anyone in Congress. Special interests wrote it and are benefitting from it. Did it help you? Cap and Trade will bankrupt you and I and it's based on bogus science, so just shut up and let it happen? Health care is not broken. We require some benefits for actual people in need AND we need tort reform.

We seem to be in the business of pointing fingers instead of actually doing anything about what we want in this country. No matter who or what you support, contact your representative and make sure you vote during elections, local, state and national.

and the President IS Commander in Chief .I wish Obama called him after the speech and instructed him to be at the White House in uniform 7am the next morning...at which time he would be expected to explain why someone who broke common civility and protocal should retain his rank.  I do take issue with one aspect of your post...Limbaugh..Hannity..Beck..Coulter.............journalist???  Not hardly...but they are skilled entertainers.

Well said Steak. I could not have expressed my exact views any better.The shit flows on both sides of the aisle and on all of the major networks. It is not confined to Fox and the Republican Party. I no longer trust any politician, and that is sad. Like Eddie, I wish we could come together with the single minded purpose that we did immediately following 9/11

"In the end of the day, wether you are a Republican or a democrat, all you care about is lining your pockets and supporting the ideas of those who give you money. They don't give a shit about people, only getting re-elected."

The whole caring about everyday people is getting lost. I too am so fed up with the 2 main parties. Our elected officials are more concerned about their parties more then you and I. I don't really see any real change coming soon. I guess it the America political way, as The Boss says "poor man wanna be rich, rich man wanna be king, and king ain't satisfied, till he rules everything". Their main purpose is get re-elected and to make politics a career. Hence they get a great pension and no cost health care. With no accountability to top it off!

Ok so everyone is getting sick of the same old politics as usual. Do something about it and Vote them out. Too many lifelong politicians have gained too much power time for the younger generations to move to action. Lets get it fixed.

PS. Also I do hate to say this but imagrants would get free health care. If you go to a hospital they wonyt turn you away. No matter who you are. Thet will take you in fix you up send you on your way. When you can't pay some one will have to pay and that will be the taxpayer. AKA FREE Heath care!!!!!!! Could you see the news now if we turned people away for care. All the world's nations would be against us then.

Just my 2 cents.

Eddie, I am so with you on this. For me what is most disconcerting is the level of misinformation and lies are conveyed and the Right gets away with it! For instance, just yesterday, Hannity went nuts because he claims that Obama in his speech called Insurance Executives "bad people". The EXACT WORDS  which Obama used were that he said Insurance executives "are not bad people". So the President can speak to the nation and say "Apples", and Hannity comes on his radio and TV show and says the President said "Oranges" and he gets away with it.
Shameless.

To be fair and balanced, you have to mention Rachel Maddow and Keith Olberman on the other side.  Talk about cheerleaders.  Also, the bill doesn't say it won't cover illegal aliens, and that is a centerpiece of Congressional Democrats agenda -- coverage for all.  Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't trying to advance a hidden agenda.

Eddie,

First off, I'm a moderate- no claim to either party, but will say that you hit the nail on the head. I worked with a guy years ago who had run several Republican political campaigns (it probably applies to both parties though) and once he told me how they worked, I was so disgusted I almost threw up. According to him, the truth doesn't matter- perception is all that matters. Destroying a life- even with lies and fabrications that you know are false- is considered part of the price you pay to go into politics. You don't need the truth- just to create suspicion in people's minds- and you've won.

Fox news isn't news- it's propaganda. I don't want to watch ANY news that is opinion- just tell me the facts- without spin- and let me decide what I think. And I don't need someone who flunked out of college his freshman year and became a drug addict to tell me what to think or how to vote- I can do that on my own.

It disgusts me how ugly politics have turned. Where I live, they didn't even offer the OPTION of letting kids watch the Presidents speech- it was censored. What are we becoming? Nazi's that burnt books that didn't support their ideology? Communists who prevented any dissenting opinions from being heard?

Politics have become like professional wrestling- full of screaming, shouting, baseless accusations, and in the end- it's really all just BS posturing to maintain power.

I hope one day we will take back the country and demand that the news be reported as it should be- with facts and no spin one way or the other.

Great post.

I agree the whole lot of them are worthless all that has changed is who is doing the whining few years back FOX was blowing Bush while CNN cried foul at every corner now we have another joke in chief from the other side FOX loses their mind while CNN gives Obama a knobber every day, the media is all about entertainment now so they each play to their viewers....I personally think both parties are full of shit with the Dems just being maybe one or two percent more worthless than the Republicans.... It is fun tho watching the panty waists among the liberals cry foul now even tho they thought it was anything goes when it wasn't their guy in office
that said this thread belongs on another board we shouldn't be airing a topic rife for flaming here esp one started by the mod just my two cents

Limbaugh, Hannity, the she-bitch Coulter and Glenn Beck are about RATINGS. Selling books. Making money. Just like Larry O'Donnell, Rachel Madcow and the ultimate asshole, Keith Olberman.

Yes, Wilson was wrong to disrespect the office. But were you upset when the Dems did the same damn thing to G.W. Bush ? On numerous occasions and NONE ever apologized. I'm still waiting for Rather and Mapes to apologize for deliberately defaming Bush and using phony records. I happen to strongly dislike Bush and think he was one of our ten worst Presidents but he endured disrespect far worse than anything Obama has had to put up with.

As for the merits of Wilson calling Obama a liar, there is a lot to it. Illegal immigrants are SUPPOSED to be ineligible BUT Congress defeated a bill that would have required proof of citizenship to get non-emergency medical care. If they don't have to prove they're legal how are you going to stop illegal immigrants from getting free health care ? If they can get phony I.D.'s and SS #'s how are you going to stop them from getting phony medical I.D. cards ?

Civil discourse is a two-way street. And Obama and the Dems are just as guilty of factual delinquency as Sarah Palin.

In contrast to MSNBC, Fox airs a variety of views. Olberman and Madcow NEVER have anyone on who disagrees with them. N E V E R ! And some of their hosts let their own ideology trump common courtesy. Many times.

As much as I can't stand him, Hannity has lots of liberal guests and callers. Limbaugh gives priority to liberal callers and is always courteous to them.

MSNBC doesn't air a variety of views?  Guess you don't watch Chris Matthews.  

Civil discourse is a two way street, but if you think Bush had to put up with worse than Obama, you not watching the same television I am.

I don't recall anyone questioning George Bush's citizenship.  I don't recall any left wing websites telling liberals to go out and buy guns, and advocating the violent overthrow of the government.  I don't recall any Democratic congress memebers interrupting one of Bush's adrresses to Congress by calling him a liar.  And I don't remember any liberals standing outside of one of Bush's town halls armed with semi automatic weapons.

Our discourse is being poisoned, by both sides, but it simply is not equal.  There are violent, racist elements in our society who cannot stand the idea of a black man, liberal or conservative, as President of the United States.  I cannot help but fear for the safety of the President.

I wonder if you felt the same during Bush's 2005 State of the Union speech when the democrats met his warning about the financial crisis of the Social Security system with boos and catcalls. None apoligized. I'm not defending Wilson, he was wrong, but he only embarrased himself.

I wonder if you were affended by Keith Olbermans nightly rants for 8 years about how our President was a nazi and a fascist. Now, MSNBC seems to think that to disagree with Obama is to be a racist. Olberman has stated as much. That offends me.

Lastly, the non partisan Congressional Research Service (CRS), which is similar to the CBO, has said that there is no provision in any of the current healthcare bills to prevent illegal aliens from getting health insurance in any of the bills. Attempts to put restrictions in were all voted down.

We are being mislead on this healthcare bill by both sides. Only more reason not to be rushed into it. Especially when we have so many more immediate problems like the economy, the deficit, the war, social security, medicaid deficit, JOBS.

Right on.

"In contrast to MSNBC, Fox airs a variety of views"..

Oh come on...O'Reilly, Beck, Hannity, Huckabee..Doesn't sound like too many liberal hosts there...

I actually have made a good faith effort to watch O'Reilly's show, (watching anything on FOX News is extremely difficult for me to stomach)...Ok, he may have liberal guests on, BUT, he will constantly interrupt them, thus no one who disagrees with him will ever get to make a point...And Hannity is even worse...

Also, on the Ed Schultz Show on MSNBC, he constantly has on Tom Tancredo, as well as numerous Republican strategists...There is at least civil discourse on that program..

That'a what I love about liberal's. You can call the president a liar, hypocrite, criminal, terrorist, evil, nazi, fascist, Hitler, satan, or the worst president ever...as long as you say it everywhere "EXCEPT" the chamber of the house. Let's be honest here, Obama has been treated like royalty in comparison to the way the democrats on the left treated bush. You might say "the democrats chickens are coming home to roost." And to answer your question of, are Glenn Beck or Limaugh an embarresment, not nearly as much of an embarresment as that pompus phoney stalwart of liberal media, Keith Olbermann. The best part about Olbermanns "war" on fox is pretty much based entirely because he was fired by both Fox sports and Fox news (and not because of ideology, but cause of ratings. The man is such a diva that espn doesn't even allow him on the property of their headquarters in stanford. MSNBC is the only channel that will even deal with his inferiority-complex. If you want to blame anyone for the decline in civil discourse in the body politic, look no further than "Worst Person in the World." A segment based almost entirely in ridiculing those Olbermann disagrees with or, more often than not" has personal or professional beefs. O'Reilly, Beck, and Hannity whose ratings towers his; or personal reasons like Fox (who fired him) or, for example Laura Ingram. It's funny how LI never made WPitW list until after she dumped him. Anyways, I digress. The bill doesn't have to give health care to illegal aliens because we all know that as soon as the Obama administration finishes with health care, they are moving on to amnesty. That was one of the democrats biggest issues during the campaign. Are we to believe they have just given it up. Of course not, but they know that universal health care would never pass if they gave amnesty first. So lets not cry because Obama is getting "Bushed."

-- Modified on 9/11/2009 11:37:13 AM

O'Reilly is not a paragon of civility BUT he has liberal guests and he tries to keep an open mind.
Olberman and Madcow NEVER have conservatives or anybody else who disagrees with them. And even Chris Matthews, whom I have some respect for, can be rude and discourteous and more than once cut off a guest whose ideas he did not like.

Ed Schultz is one oif the mokst factually challenged T.V. hosts I've ever seen. He was so biased i couldn't watch him for more than 5 minutes.

Beck is a clown. He ADMITS to it. He laughs all the way to the bank. Literally.

Hannity is a doctrinaire hump. Nobody beats a dead horse more than he.

I don't watch Huckabee but he seems like a nice enough fellow.

The only Fox show I watch with regularity is O'Reilly but it is 60 % entertainment and 40 % info.

The last refuges of civil discourse are the Sunday morning shows. Even if it means watching
Eleanor Rodham Clift. Oh for the days of "Agronsky and Company" and "Firing Line".

As so many others have written, Rep. Wilson's comment was very inappropriate but was no different than previous behavior by Democrats during President Bush's addresses.

And the likes of Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity and Beck on the right and Stewart, Olbermann, Maddow, Matthews on the left are merely entertainers.  They don't make policy and they have no votes in either side of Congress.

Partisanship is at an all-time high. Much of it is due to the Internet, Cable News and before that, talk radio.  

What really saddens, me, though, is the so-called mainstream media of the three major networks and how biased and partisan to the left they have become.

Joe Wilson was wrong because of the time and place of his comment.  But it pales in comparison to the Anti-American comments and trash that comes out of Keith Olbermann's mouth.  He is vile and NOT entertaining. I will not watch the Sunday Night NFL pregame show on NBC now that they have added him to their cast.

Eddie, you may be somebody on this board and i'm a no body, but there is a politics and religion board!!!   it is there for this type of rant. I specifically do not go into that board, because i'm tired of hearing this garbage.  so please SIR, take you liberal drivel elsewhere!!!  Oh and b4 you start smarting on all of the named journalists and commentators on their stance why don’t you look at the MSM as a whole and see where they stand and how they shove their left wing agenda on the whole country!!!  Hey, why don’t you take a moment and check the footage of when President Bush addressed congress and tell me how your democratic representatives acted!!!! or close your eyes turn on MSNBC and bow to keith olberman some more!!  

Are you fuckin kidding me? Dude, pay close attention to talk radio whenever anyone who disagrees with the host calls in. The formula is simple: Screen all the calls and only let the callers through who sound like they will not be able to articulate their point, while at the same time out-talking, loud-talking, and just flat out talking over those who effectively refute the garbage the host is spouting. I have listened to Limbaugh for years and it never ceases to amaze me that people still listen to this guy. Hannity is just a flat out liar. He totally fabricated what Obama said about insurance execs. And as far as fox news giving equal time to both sides, i dare you to watch cnn for a week, followed by fox for a week, followed by msnbc for a week. You will see plain as day that aside from Shepard Smith who in my opinion is the only "journalist" at fox, the rest of their primetime lineup is either hardcore right wing idealogues (Hannity, Beck) or pretenders like O'reilly and Van Sustren who use every opportunity to present democrats and liberals in the worst light. O'reilly constantly goes on about how he's not like the idealogues, but have you ever noticed who sits in for him when he is on vacation? Laura Ingraham, Michelle Malkin, or some other hardcore right winger. I could go on and on about the bias over at fox. Msnbc was actually created as a counter balance to fox. Cnn on the other hand, tends to present the news from the least bias point of view. They routinely present both sides, but unlike fox they don't indulge in all the screeching. For the record i am a REGISTERED hard core independent, which means i am able to deseminate bullshit from sound journalism.

The problem with Bill O'reilly is that he has developed an exxagerated sense of immportance.
I agree with you totally as far as how he interrupts anyone who comes on to challenge him, especially when they are in the process of handing him his ass. The guy's a straight up dick. I used to watch him until i noticed how he routinely refuses to call out abhorent right wing behavior and speech, while showcasing what he thinks is abhorrent behavior from the left. The outrage should be equal in my book.

When that reporter threw a shoe at President Bush I was ticked off and I was concerned that a screwball could throw anything at our President. I don't want our President, regardless of whether I voted for him (or her) in danger.

It's safe to say that everyone in this thread regardless of political leanings or ideology all want civil discourse and respect shown. We want people to think clearly, report accurately, and not simply react because we're supposed to defend our party. Both Dems and the GOP sound like idiots at times defending the party line.

Unfortunately in this country we are so reactive and impulsive that it will probably take ram rodding a "health care reform" bill through congress to get it to pass.  The more unfortunate part is that the so called loop-holes that will allow illegal immegrants access to free non-emergant health care will only be seen to be true or false after the fact because most people will not look deep enough to find out ahead of time.  It is sad that some of the retired people who analyzed these types of ducuments, and have time to really look close at them now, can't make sense of them at all.  When they confront a representative at a town hall meeting, hopefully being courteous about it, 9 times in 10 the representative can't do anything but say he doesn't know the specifics or stammer clumsily.  So even the representatives who are voting on this major bill have no real clue what benefits it will be able to provide and to whom.

As to Jon Wilson's comment, he has the right to free speech just like the rest of us.  The time and forum he made the comment in was what was inexcusible.  If he can prove that it is possible for illegal immegrants will be able to access free non-emergant health care then he has a right to say so, he simply chose the wrong time and place where no proof could be afforded.  Unfortunately right now the complexity of this legislation would probably support both sides.

To STPHomer, as long as Jon Wilson is representing his office and not trying to provide a standpoint for the armed services, the president has no legal authority to call him to the carpet.  Any member of the armed forces, such as myself, has the right to express our opinion as long as our arguement doesn't set an opinion for the military.  For example, going out in uniform to a protest rally, screaming expletives about the president or his actions.  I hope your comment was not to be taken literally and I did take it with a grain of salt and not personally.

Well said.

I'm a true moderate,all my liberal friends think I'm very conservative and all of my conservative friends think I'm a socialist
This leads me to believe I am RIGHT ON THE MONEY
Outside of fiscal matters I suppose I am a liberal, however I believe the answer to Eddie's question is that yes, there is a huge Consevative bias to Fox news. I also believe the general media is so afraid of the "liberal" tag that they err on the side of consevatism anyway.
We lost the greatest conservative voice in history a few years ago, the late great William F. Buckley. Here was a man who could debate like a tiger about an issue, then after the show have drinks with his good friends such as Norman Mailer or Gore Vidal.
I also respect George Will however he sometimes comes across like a crabby schoolmarm lol.

I agree 100%! Please take this topic OFF this board! It just gets people all worked up. This board is supposed to be about PORN Stars and because Eddie you are a moderator you get to blast your ideals down everyone's throats here.  I visit and "pay" to be come to this board to get away from Politics and Religion.

Look...can we all just talk about pussy...why can't we all just talk about pussy??

George Bush was booed as well, get over it.

If you like the things that are happening, that is great, and good for you.

BUT EVEN IF YOU LOVE WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW.....YOU CAN'T EVEN FOOL YOURSELF INTO THINKING IT IS AMERICAN!


You want to build a France, or a USSR, or a Cuba, that is fine...BUT REVOLUTIONS have been fought over less.


We have CZARS who are NOT confirmed by congress, yet have more power than cabinet members.
They are openly communist.  They are for animals having the right to sue humans.
They are for forced abortions.
Sterilants in drinking water.
They are against the 1st ammendment and a free interent.

You expect people to calmly right a letter or WAIT 4 years to deal with this??????

We are not a democracy.  WE ARE A REPUBLIC.

We are supposed to be ruled BY LAWS which are being thrown out the window.

LET ME BE CRYSTAL CLEAR.   If the liberals think that winning slightly over 50% of the vote gives them the right to break the law, ignore the constitution, and destroy 200 years of the republic.......A little outburst will be the LEAST of the problems.


If you want to understand why things are violent (verbally or physically) just forget politics and convert it to something else.

Liberals want to take or control.
Conservatives want to be left alone and be free.

The liberal wants to take my car, my money, my radio, and about everything else.

You expect me to wait hum-drum for the cops to show up 3 hours later and fill out a report.

NO! When someone breaks into your house you shout a warning....you let them hear you cock the gun....and you finally shoot to kill to protect your family and property.

Even the most liberal amoung you would admit that our founding fathers would have been calling revolution years ago if they were here today.

SO DONT GIVE ME THIS CRAP ABOUT CIVILITIY.
GO AHEAD AND ADMIT THAT YOU PREFER THE IDEAL OF THE USSR TO THE FOUNDING PRINCIPLES OF AMERICA.

I DON'T CARE WHERE YOU WERE BORN..This is NOT an AMerica divided.  This is Freedom loving Americans versus a force of change that seeks to literally exchange this country for a new USSR.

Go ahead and admit it, so we can load the guns and meet on the battlefield.   All I'm waiting on is the fluits and drums and I'm out the door.


AND BTW:  Wilson earned himself a major contribution and campaign volunteer in those two words.

AND BTW #2:  He has raised 750k in donations since then.

TODAYS LIBERAL STATIST AND A TRUE CONSERVATIVE COULD NO MORE BE CALM AND RESPECTFUL THAN WINSTON CHURCHILL AND ADOLF HITLER.

I have no interest desire to read the rest of the posts. I agree, 100%, we need to respect the Office of the President--we only have ONE, after all.

Where were all the protesters when Pres. Bush was so denigrated and abused? When they booed him at Pres. Obama's inauguration??

Let's be consistent. Outrage should be party-blind

How about this...why don't we all accept that all politicians, whether they be Republicans, Democrats, Liberals, or Conervatives, are all liars and thieves.

Now can we just get back to talking about pussy?

Don't you realize that giving unfettered amnesty to illegal aliens, especially given the current shape of our economy, would be political suicide for Obama and the democrats. You make no sense. Why the hell would they do something so self destructive?
But since you brought up the amnesty issue maybe you can answer a question for me. What president, revered by republicans, granted unquestioned amnesty to millions of illegal aliens? Ronald Reagan. Now, how often do you hear this even mentioned in the amnesty debate.
hypocrites.
As far as your gripe that msnbc's ratings are much lower than fox's, i have this to say: What music genre destroys all others as far as airplay, sales, merchandising, etc..? Rap/hip-hop. Does that mean that as a genre it is simply better than country, rock, jazz, r&b? Does that mean it's artist are infinitely more talented than others? Does that mean that it is a more credible form of music? The answer to all these is a resounding no of course. It simply means it has found an audience that likes it's melodies, beats, and yes coarse language.
Same thing goes for cable news. Just because fox has better ratings just means that conservatives are much more inclined to watch shows where the host are controversial. Remember, despite the fact that O'reilly likes to think of himself as a journalist, he most definitely is not. He is a talk show host of an opinion show that skews to the right. He's not as bad as Hannity, Beck, or Huckabee, but he's not much better because of one thing: He simply does not hold right wing nuts accountable. I have only seen him give occassional tepid criticism to those on the far right, while roundly criticizing those on the far left. Olberman is in fact a dyed in the wool liberal, but if i don't watch him or Maddow or Chris Matthews and instead keep my tv tuned to fox i probably would have bought into the nonsense that Obama is in fact a muslim.
Fair and balanced? yeah right. Just something to chew on from a dyed in the wool independent.

Please abide by your own rules.

I've ALWAYS allowed off topic discussions on this board.  My opinion is that pornstars who escort aren't the end all and be all to life, and I think that it's important for the members  here to understand their fellow hobbyist and where they're coming from.  If you don't appreciate it, just don't read or respond to the the post.  I made it explictly clear in my subject heading that it was totally OFF TOPIC, so you had every opportunity to ignore this post.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.  You address some very important issues and make your points with obviously well informed and intelligent comments.  If only Congress were as succinct.

Wow!  You've boiled it down to its base elements... I shed a tear myself when I look at our politicians today.

Great response.  You're right, the smell of poop gets stronger all of the time.  As to where to go for ture journalism, I get me news from BBC American and Jon Stewart on the Daily News.

Thanks for your impartial and insightful input, but really... "O'Reilly a paragon of civility who has liberal guests and keeps an open mind"?

LOL... you HAVE to be kidding!  This guy wouldn't know civility if it sucked his dick.

OK, to be fair and balanced I'll admit that Keith and Rachel are the liberal equivelents of the Fox Network.  But that's leads to only one or two possibilites... Investigate George B., Rush, Sean, Glenn, Bill and the others who distort the truth to advance their uber-conservative agenda, or to figure out a logical explaination for their policies.

The only hidden agenda is that which is designed to denigrate Obama's policies.  He has become the uber-president and has become the republican's worst nightmare... He's Bill Clinton without the baggage.

list, the person really did something egregious, ie; did something very hypocritical, made physical threats against someone, made racist statements, made up something totally false, etc...

Also, to put another right wing rumor to rest, Keith's ratings are just fine....He's hosted "Countdown" for over 6 years now, & recently signed an extension....NO networks do charity work, if Keith wasn't getting ratings, he would have long been off the air by now...Dennis Miller, Michael Savage, & Alan Keyes were all given MSNBC shows over the years, & those are people who could NOT get ratings...

I'm conservative, I watch Fox News, listen to Rush and others. The majority of people who hate Rush and Fox News don't listen to either. They hear Rush is a fat, racist homophobe and the design of the attack is to frighten people into not listening to him. People who finally listen or watch Fox realize it's not the Hitler Youth rally they believed it to be and eventually come to recognize the fear techniques that the left used to keep them away. I like Palin, understand her support and why that scares the hell out of the left. If she wasn't a viable threat, they would have stopped talking about her on November 5th. They can't and that should tell you everything. They've tried bankrupting her with ethics cases and all have been proven baseless, the design being to keep her from affording a political future. Name the last losing VP candidate that anyone gave a crap about post election? I can't stand McCain. Palin didn't cost him the election, McCain cost him the election. Polls showed that Palin added 6 points to his total so she helped avoid a bigger Obama victory. Flip the ticket and it would have been a much more interesting vote.

Fox News and talk radio aren't the problem. Toss any points of view out there and we're all free to choose who to listen to and who makes the most sense to us. I suggest taking a closer look at the mainstream media and asking why they're all in trouble (either losing money, readers or viewers) and why Fox is not only beating them, they're crushing them and gaining. Fox, the internet and talk radio happen to be the only sources currently breaking actual news rather than cheerleading. When you say Scarborough and McCain are favorites in your GOP vision, that's laughable to a true conservative because it's exactly people like this who dilute their opinion simply in an effort to be liked and they end up standing for nothing. McCain lacks a backbone and it showed during the campaign, this is why he lost. There are no great moderates in U.S. history. You stand for something or you don't and I don't care what line of work you're in. Michael Jordan is not going to the hall of fame this weekend because he was a good role player and worked well with others. He was focused on what drove him to his core and always strived for that. The left keeps demanding that the middle is the future of the GOP and your opponent is only good for suggesting how you should fail. This is like the Red Sox saying that the Yankees would be smart to eliminate their bullpen to become a stronger team. America is a center-right nation and conservatism wins elections. McCain was all over the place and if he was the model conservative -- endorsed by the NY Times during the primary, the poster child of everything right for the GOP -- why did he lose? Why didn't Colin Powell support him? Powell says McCain is exactly the type of candidate the GOP should run and he'd support yet he didn't. Rasmussen's poll last month showed that all 50 states apparently lean to the right for the first time in history. And the GOP should run the other way? So say the Democrats.

As for TV, Pew Research did a poll last October that showed that the stories on Obama -- pro vs. con/positive vs. negative -- were in the 75-25 range for NBC, a little less for CBS, then ABC, but still wildly pro-Obama in the 65-35 range. Fox was 40-40. That's what's known as balance. What's skewed in this mainstream media fantasy world is that the 65-35 range is deemed to be fair and of course to that standard Fox leans to the right. Obama only appeared on Fox News twice during the campaign and once was a surprise call-in that lasted 5 minutes. Obama avoided Fox because of the scrutiny he would face and he still demonizes it, as well as Rush and all talk radio because they WON'T toss him softballs. This skewed perspective was the root of the SNL jokes of "would you like a softer pillow?" as a debate question to Obama. If you still don't see the slant, when was the last time Bill Maher had a panel with more than 1 token conservative to beat on? He has 3 guests and it's never 2-1 conservative; sometimes 3-0 liberal and at best 2-1 liberal. Add Bill and that's 3 against 1. Check the guests on MSNBC or CNN and you see they're mostly strong left with a watered down rino like Pat Robertson, who, like McCain, gets those invites because he's attacked his own party in the past in an effort to be liked. Hell, CNN's top 2 political pundits during the campaign were Paul Begala and James Carville -- not only far left but THEY WERE ADVISING THE OBAMA TEAM. These were their go-to guys for balance and CNN had to end that due to the glaring conflict of interest. Fox has their opinion anchors like Beck, Hannity and O'Reilly but on election night or a convention, you'll never see them in the anchor chair. They use a moderate like Brit Hume (now Bret Baier) and always have guests from the left and right as pundits and always give them equal time to get both sides. Last September, MSNBC needed to take Olbermann and Matthews off anchor coverage because they were giving their opinions when they should have been moderate anchors. The media perspective is skewed to the left and this is what skews the view of the coverage elsewhere.

What we're seeing today is not nearly as out of control as this country has seen. There have been pistol duels that stemmed from arguments and rancor that began on the House floor. It's all televised now so we see how the sausage is made. You mean to tell me a Democrat has never been caught texting or yawning or feigning interest? Did you ever think that Eric Cantor was texting as a reaction to the speech and not avoiding listening to it? I don't know what happened, just saying. Democrats have booed, hissed and more. Joe Wilson didn't say anything all that outrageous and nobody got hurt. He actually apologized immediately, not the next day. When the news broke, he had already apologized and that was included as part of the story. At the urging of HIS OWN PARTY, he called the White House the next day to further apologize and it was accepted. Now Pelosi wants to publicly spank him in an effort to embarrass him after all the parties involved have put this to rest and this is bad GOP decorum? Granted, when I heard what he said, my first thought was in complete agreement with you. Not cool. Wrong room. Have some respect. At the same time, he's representing the people (his job) and he's saying exactly what they're saying and feeling. It doesn't matter what Obama says about coverage for illegals if the bill lacks any enforcement procedure whatsoever -- this is the lie. Under every bill that's been discussed, not one would deny coverage to an illegal because nothing demands they prove they're a citizen. This is the point. The GOP tried twice to add an amendment to prevent this and both times Democrats outvoted them. That's the reality. If illegals won't be able to slip through, as Obama says, why not pass the amendment? It's actions, not words. In that regard, Wilson has become a hero. In reaction, the White House just announced provisions to demand proof of citizenship so all that said, who was lying? Wilson was right. Same with Palin and "death panels." The woman made a post on her Facebook page and the legislation was dropped. You think that type of support and quiet charisma doesn't scare the fuck out of the left and those who crafted the bill?

Rush speaks for conservatives, not Republicans. Big distinction. He's clear that he has no love for the GOP and it's precisely because of moderates like McCain and Lindsey Graham who sell out their ideals at the exact moment they should be showing a spine and standing up for those who sent them there. The others you mentioned -- Coulter, Hannity, Beck -- aren't embarrassments, they ARE the voice of conservatism. The problem with the GOP is they lack voices like that in Washington. Again, why Palin freaks out the left.

And no, the left is not scared of Sarah Palin at all....If the Republican ticket was flipped last year, Barack Obama wins Arizona, Missouri, Montana, & possibly even Georgia (he got 47% of the vote there)....One Republican strategist even said AZ. would easily have been an Obama state if it wasn't for McCain....

Sarah Palin CANNOT win a general election...Other than the south, she wouldn't win anywhere!...Now, with her quitting as governor of Alaska, she is the hope of all Democrats to be the Republican nominee in 2012....Obama would win in a landslide, possibly getting 450+ electoral votes...

John McCain was easily the best candiate Republcians could have run in 2008....Guiliani angers the social conservatives (who I personally think are destroying the Republican party & are the main reason why I'll never vote for a Republican), Mitt Romney lacks a personality & went too far to the right (certainly a alot further than when he was governor of MA.)...Huckabee had that folksy appeal, but his social conservatism is too far right for a general  election....And people like Tom Tancredo, Alan Keyes, Sam Brownback, etc. are absolute jokes & other than having a constitutional right to run for POTUS, they are not serious candiates at all.....

As far as Rasmussen polls, Scott Rasmussen is a Republican hack of the worst order, nearly as bad as John Zogby, who had Pennslyvania as a toss-up right before the election, a state Obama won by 11%...Rasmussen & Zogby always cook the books for Republicans....

I always laugh when I see hard-core Conservatives who are regulars on an Escort board. a little hypocritical, no? or are you one of those socially liberal Conservatives? In other words, NOT a true conservative, according to your own minions.
As far as Bill Maher goes, he has had at least 2 show this year where his guests were only Republicans, so get your facts straight.
And remind me the last time there were liberals marching outside a Presidential event with loaded firearms.

So Eddie's point is to get a conservative view and when one appears, it's blasted for being hypocritical -- as if only libs enjoy pussy. Good for you!!

I never said Palin could win the general election and I never said McCain was not the strongest candidate the GOP had to offer in 2008.

Except for throwing a bone to a retired Senator and two liberal Republicans, and then you took back most of your praise for one, your rant was ENTIRELY liberal.

So why the diversion to claim that it wasn’t going to be so?

As long as you are here now (I’m assuming you first posted this on the GD board and it was moved), stick around. See if you want to join your liberal brethren here who thought is was just fine when the Dems BOOED GWB in the same House Chamber. Your same ones who defended the Senate Majority leader who called GWB a liar and then REFUSED to retract when given several opportunities.

Wilson’s outburst was inappropriate for the setting, but I invite you to stick around long enough to open your eyes to the fact that BHO is not telling you the truth about his intentions, regardless what you thought you heard from the MSM.

You may very well be sick and tired of the politics coming from the Right, but I see no evidence that you are upset at all about those coming from the Left.

I invite you to read some of the excellent writings of William F. Buckley, often called a founder of the modern Conservative movement. He was a long standing Libertarian when it came to some social issues, especially the decriminalization of drugs.

I said O'Reilly was NOT a paragon of civility. Neither are some of his guests.

I shouldn't do this but is illustrative so : About ten years ago, I was involved in a high profile matter and was on T.V. several times including an info-discussion show like O'Reilly's on another network. They had an opposing "viewpoint" who yelled and namecalled while I tried to keep my cool and stick to the facts. More than once, during a break, the producer would come over to me and encourage me to get down and dirty and respond in kind. When I asked "why I (had)to get down to her level" she smiled and said it "made for a more interesting program ". I decided to just use humor and whenever the she-bitch went over the top I'd encourage her to "put her feet up and apply a cool compress." When she name-called I'd say things like : " all my factually challenged opponents call me that." Stuff like that. Long story short- she still regularly appears on the cable talk shows and my phone stopped ringing.Bottom line is "smoke, bells, whistles and buzzwords" mean higher ratings.    

In 2005, while delivering the State of the Union, Bush was booed repeatedly by Democrats. Cheney was accused of enjoying soldiers dying in Iraq and Afghanistan because he was profiting from it on the Senate floor.

So you know what? Shut the fuck up. When Obama was inaugurated, not one piece of trash was flung at him. The traditional parade down Potomoac Avenue had to be cut SHORT when Bush was inaugurated in 2001 due to the level of protests and garbage being flung at him.

When Clinton took the stage at Bush's first inaguration, he was welcomed with applause. When Bush took the stage at Obama's inauguration, he was met with boos and profanity.

So just shut the fuck up.

At the 2008 RNC convention, millions of dollars in damage was done by protestors. At the 2008 DNC convention, although there were protestors present, the level of protests in no way interferred with the convention, nor did the protestors leave millions of dollars of damage in their wake.

So just shut the fuck up.

Lets just get over the idea that there is somehow more decorum on side than the other. Bush was treated with utter disrespect by his opponents from the day he took office. He was called a chimp, and his intelligence insulted. Liberals were downright gleeful when reporting the story of the Iraqi journalist who threw a shoe at him.

So again, just shut the fuck up.

ONE guy yelled out "you lie", and his neighbors immediately shushed him. And you call THAT the straw that broke the camel's back??? Where were you when Americans threw GARBAGE at Bush?? Where were you when Bush was BOOED while delivering the State of the Union? Where were you when protestors damaged cars and smashed in storefront windows during the RNC? Where were you when Bush was booed at Obama's inauguration?

So just shut the fuck up.

I am so sick of partisan hackery, and that is all this post is, that I could just puke.

You say Maher has had at least 2 shows this year where his guests were only Republicans. Two?? He's aired 26 episodes so far this year and you consider 2 of 26 to be balanced?? That's .077 percent. Thank you very much for proving my point.

And nicely put.

I guess he also missed GWB's State of the Union address when those on the left booed Bush's comments about privatizing .04% of individual social security accounts. He must have missed the camera on Ted Kennedy at the same time, texting on his blackberry, and then he promptly fell asleep for 20 or so minutes.

Guess he also missed the reporting of the way Clinton's office staffers ransacked the White House offices when they moved out, and GWB moved in. That cost the taxpayers a pretty penny to repair that damage.

Guess he missed the fact that when GWB moved out, and Obama moved into the White House, it was in perfect order.

I'm fed up with the 'he did, they did' mentality of some. We need to get back to doing what is good for the nation. "E Pluribus Unum" DOES NOT MEAN, "fuck you, I've got mine".

The Governor of the state of South Carolina is the Commander in Chief of the South Carolina National Guard, not Obama.

what they wanted or expected to see.

Nothing like that happened when Bush left office.

I go back to the point I made in a prior post about getting OVER the "my side is perfect, your side is wrong" mentality and focusing on real issues.

For those who can't do that, like the poster who started this thread, just shut the fuck up. That's what I'm saying.

Several good questions:

First, Fox news is no better or worse than CBS or NBC. I would bet Fox never did anything as outrageous as Dan Rather running a story based on forged evidence AFTER HIS OWN EXPERT TOLD HIM IT WAS FISHY.  And then he still denied it.

I could give 100 other examples off the top of my head.  Just two.  With this huge scandal over ACORN and Obama's close association with it right up throught the campaign, you would think the L.A. Times might mention it. Not one word.

New York Times did not cover Van Jones AT ALL until after he resigned.  For an ex-Soviet major (me), this is too funny. The Soviet press never reported someone was sick until they were dead.  If Van Jones was in enough trouble to get canned, rightly or wrongly, he was a fortiori enough of a story to get mentioned before.

No, Fox has an agenda. They are a little more honest about it than the other sources.

Second, and similarly, Rush is no worse than most of the people on Air America.  For a hundred years there has been a tradition of bombastic commentators pushing the envelope and provoking.  I don't know if they were ever the topic of the news as much.

Think of all the commentators and nasty things about Bush. Hitler, Nazi, Dictator - just the starting point.  I hear things on Air America every day that gives Rush a run for his money.

He isn't the leader, he never was the leader, and the only people who have annointed him such are on the left.

I am just amazed that he is a story.  What does he represent new in America. He is dog bites man.

Again, you are shocked by Joe Wilson.  The Dems loudly booed Bush at his State of the Union. I think that is worse, since Obama's recent address is a pure political speech.  (I am not saying he isn't entitled to do that. It is just that the State of hte Union is more dignified and constitutionly mandated. Booing there is far worse.)

Were you equally appalled at the Dems for any of these things? Did you post something on some forum saying how embarassed you were to be a Dem?

(You got into the merits, so I can't resist. The fact is that nothing in the bill EXCLUDES illegal aliens.  In many states it is illegal to ask.  It is true as it can be true that nothing INCLUDES them, but that does not mean they will not be covered. In fact, the house REJECTED an amendment that would exclude them.)

No nothing says "death panels."  Question 1: can counselors guide their patients? Question 2: If, as Obama says, we have to use money more wisely, and if, as he says, 1/3 of health care money is spent in the last year - where is a good place to trim expenses? Question 3: If the government wants to trim expenses and we now know where the extra expenses are located, would a government counselor be more likely to err on one side or the otehr.

Finally, McCain. Look at the tracking polls through the election.  there was a constant dipping of Obama and rising of McCain. The average on RCP had McCain winning.  The turning point was the economic melt down, where Obama used McCain's comment about the economy being his weak suit as the clincher.  Up until then, Obama was in trouble.  Look at the exact date the polls shifted.

I, too, regret the caustic nature of the debate and wish it were more civilized. (I think you will find it rare that I have ever insulted anyone on this board with two exceptions.)

But you list example after example after example of the GOP being rude, for lack of a better word.  You remind me of Obama's book, Audacity, where he bemoans the caustic tone of the debate and gives GOP examples.  This was during the Bush years and he could not find one example of Dems being rude or caustic.  He needed a better research staff

Defining eligibility for benefits as those "lawfully present in the state."

the problem is there is no verification requirement so undocs can sneak in.

Please. You have it both ways. You say the bill excludes them, but there is no verification.  What is the bottom line?  

"Sneak in?"  Most states don't even allow them to ask.  In L.A. there is a huge controversy over whether police can ask someone their status when they are the subject of a lawful stop.

Do you really think they will get to the emergency room and someone will say, "Excuse me, can I see your visa?"

In any event, once again we have gotten off on a side track.  The issue was the civility of the debate on both sides.

Getting back to the issue, do you have any qualms with my main points.

The bill is silent on the issue which means that illegals can and would be covered through a "liberal" interpretation of the legislation. It's the reason why Democrats voted it down... I think twice

Y'all may find this interesting :

''Today, for the first time as far as we know, the administration is backing a provision that would require proof of citizenship before someone could enroll in a plan selected on the exchange.''
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/09/11/2065287.aspx

Though he got a nice bump after the RNC, he was trailing Obama the entire time....Barack Obama did NOT need the Lehman Bros. collapse on 9/15/08 to seal his victory.....Obama sealed the deal after the 3 debate performances.....


"The latest national polls put Obama ahead by 7.8 points nationally. The Washington Post notes that in the most recent 159 national polls, Obama has led them all".

Indeed, nothing is sacred.  But as I told my brother several days ago on a related topic, bullshit is like any other matter in the universe - it cannot be destroyed, only altered into a different form.  And the word is "ITALIAN".

Palin  killed MAC if he had Romney  he might have had Michigan with  Colarado and also help   with economic support .
But like I said  before Hillary was the idiot if she had used REV Wright before Iowa and hit him real hard no way in hell would that many white Christan's have voted for Obama and she would have knocked him out since she won NH and blacks in SC would have not thought Obama viable.



-- Modified on 9/12/2009 5:49:21 PM

-- Modified on 9/12/2009 6:04:34 PM

Here is the Real Clear Politics average. This is not their polling, it was an average of all polls being conducted at the time.

Your cite showed the result, which we know. This is how it got there.

They both got a bump after conventions, as always, but as you can see, for several months it was neck and neck with each taking the lead and losing it.  In mid-September, Mccain actually leading, according to the average of all polls.

The global financial crisis hit in mid September, and then things went down the tubes financially.

Here is the timeline for polls so you can see exaclty what I was talking about.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

Talk about embarrasments, how about Bill Mahr saying people can't join the Republican party because their shirts aren't brown enough.

How about Olbermann calling FOX news watchers bigots and racists

Oh yeah, they are liberal so you will not mention them.

BTW, how many times did we hear the Dems boo GWB during an address to congress. Spare me your fake indignation. BTW, it was also the first time a POTUS has used the term lie in an address to congress. If he wants to dish it out, he better be able to take it.

At least you were honest enough to say you were a liberal in your initial post, but your total one sided view of this and lack of balance would have made that obvious anyways.

You lie prodded Whitehouse

''Today, for the first time as far as we know, the administration is backing a provision that would require proof of citizenship before someone could enroll in a plan selected on the exchange.''
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/09/11/2065287.aspx

The ignorance makes me ill...

There is no god.

Amazing what being called out will actually do!!

plus all the other new and different things he claimed were in "his" bill. Good luck to him. When Republicans tried, they got zero Dem committee votes.

With all due respect Fast Eddie, you are not distancing yourself from the conservative/liberal dischord.  You are merely adding to the problem.

You have some legitimate points, but you are clearly seeing history the way you want to.  Cronkite was as left of center as one could possibly get and he was proud of how he tried to alter our policy in Vietname (http://austinbay.net/blog/?p=799).   Even if you agree with his thoughts, this is clearly beyond reporting; this is editorializing.  Google yourself if you don't like the source I presented; this is not new news.

So why would you speak out against the right?  Certainly both sides of the argument should have their opinions aired.

And some stories are just not followed in the liberal/MSM news at all.   The NY Times did not pickup on Van Jones until AFTER Jones resigned in the dead of a Sunday night.

The O'Reilly Factor investigated a child rapist that was scheduled to be released from jail after just ONE YEAR of incarceration.  That rapist, David Earls, is now having new charges filed against (to prevent double jeopardy) to protect other children from what he could do.

You could be a hell of a lot more honest by just saying you are a proud liberal and fuck the conservatives.

It would give you a hell of a lot more credibility.

WTF, the idiot David Shuster on MSNBC said what Joe Wilson did yelling out You lie to Obama started a roll that caused the fool tennis star Serena Williams to say
''If I could, I would take this ... ball and shove it down your ... throat," Williams said.''

And also was why the dumbass rapper Kanye West stormed the MTV stage and grabbed the microphone during Country Music singer Taylor Swift's acceptance speech and gave a shout out of praise to Beyonce'  
Now that folks is what you call  delusional bias in MSM from the mind of a true idiot



-- Modified on 9/15/2009 1:41:51 AM

With CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN in bed with Obama where else would you want to get your news from?  Thats why I watch Fox news.  

Cmon when those stations come out and call him God-like thats just ridiculous!  

OK, enough about the Dem's booing Bush... It's one thing to boo a statement from the President, but it's another thing entirely to call the President a liar.  They are in NO way equvilent.

Oh, cone on... Yes, since we live in a democracy, it's perfectly OK to call a President anything one wishes to in public, but to call the President a liar on the floor of congress is inexcusable, period.

And you have to be kidding about Obama being treated like royalty.  Did anyone EVER question Bush's citizenship?  Do you know that through conservative propaganda, something like 48% of republicans actually believe that Obama ISN'T a real American citizen?  And how many Democrats showed up at Bush appearances with assault weapons?  The conservative media is attacking Obama the same way they attacked Clinton, but Obama scares the shit out of them because he doesn't have the baggage that Clinton did.

And let's talk about Keith Olberman, since he's the main lame-ass retort thrown back in my face.  Is Olberman a clown?  Yes, but at least he directs his vitriole towards Fox News.  On the other hand, Hannity, Beck, and particularly Limbaugh and Coulter, excoriate everyone who doesn't agree with their philosphies and just plain lie.  C'mon... Ann Coulter called ANYONE who didn't support Bush's war in Iraq a traitor!  Olberman is a lightweight compared to these guys.

Al Franken, another target of the conservatives, used annotated and bibliographed FACTS to prove that Limbaugh was a "Big Fat Liar", as well as factually showing misstatements made by O'Reilly, Coulter and the rest.  Unlike Coulter and the others, he proved his points with REFERENCED material.  Are you aware that Coulter's bibliograhy in her last book was shown to be fabricated?

And I'm tired of hearing coservatives making excuses for Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, Coulter, et. al. by claiming that they're not really journalists, they're entertainers.  That's like saying Herman Goering, the Nazi propaganda minister, was "just" an entertainer.  These people do serious damage to real and legitimate  discourse in this country, and rather than making excuses for them, real republicans should be publicly disavowing themselves from them.

The only good thing that one can say about Fox News, Limbaugh, Coulter and their ilk is that American's for the most part are fed up with the kind of hatred they spew.  That, along with the fact that Hispanics, traditionally Democrats, will be the majority ethnic group in this country by 2025, sound the death bell for the Republican Party in this country.  The conserative/religious right has basically fucked the moderate republicans; your days are numbered.

OK, first off, booing an unpopular statement by Bush and calling Obama a liar is NOT the same thing... You're in a bar and you make a statement; someone says "Come on, you can't be serious".  Compare that to someone saying "You're a liar". Which one is going to start the bar fight?

Booing voices displeasure with someone, while shouting out "you're a liar" is a direct challange to a person's honesty and integrity.  ITS NOT THE SAME, and if you think it is than you're either oblivious or totally biased.

And the difference between people like Jon Stewart and Rush Limbaugh is that Stewart not only admits he's a "fake journalist" but jokes about the fact that he's only an entertainer.

On the other hand, Limbaugh speaks at Republican functions and has been touted by conservatives as "the Voice of the Republican Party".

The sad thing is that Jon Stewart's Daily Show is the one place that shows the conservatives, the liberals and the media in their true light.  His show is more honest than anything else TV today.

Hold up there Sparky!  Which Militia group do you belong to?  Are you personal friends with Timothy McVeigh or Terry Nichols?

Forced abortions?  Sterilents in the drinking water?  Against the 1st admendment and a free internet???

You're not only paranoid, but you're delusional... and you're really scary!

You said "Liberals want to take or control" while "Conservatives want to be left alone and be free".

So let's examine the "freedoms" that the Bush administration gave us...

First, the "Patriot Act".  I love that name; it's pure genius (probably thought up by Karl Rove).  Conservatives named it that because they knew that if they named it the "Give Up a Lot of Your Privicy and Personal Rights" Act it wouldn't fly, but by calling it the Patriot Act numbnuts like you would blindly sign away your personal freedoms while pasting American Flag decals on the bumper of your pick-up truck.

"Unlimited wire-tapping".  Do you understand that if you're talking to one of your redneck buddies and mention the word "bomb" or "AK-47", sophisticated software will flag your call and may trigger a visit from the FBI or ATF?  Thank you, Patriot Act!

Warrantless Searches... Do you realize that the Bush administration made it legal to break into your house without warning or a court order, so when that wire-tap flagged you, they don't need a warrant to invade your home and seize all of the guns and ammunition I'm sure you have hoarded there?

You know, when you say that conservatives just want to be left alone, you're not really being honest.  You mean that YOU want to be left alone about the things YOU believe in, but you want to impose your beliefs on everyone else.  

Gays just want to be "left alone" to be able to marry.  Women just want to be "left alone" to decide whether or not to get an abortion.  TER members just want to be "left alone" to fuck any of the providers they read about here.  As a conservative, do you support those rights?  I doubt it.

You talk about America, you talk about the Bill or Rights, you talk about the first amendment, but I doubt you've ever read the Constitution or the Bill of Right or if you have, truly understand what they really mean.

The Founding Fathers made a point to keep religion out of government, but the conservative (religious) right that you love is trying to abrogate everything that Adams, Franklin, Jefferson et. al. risked their lives to codify.

Benjamin Franklin once said "Those who are willing to trade freedom for safety are deserving of neither".  Think about that.

-- Modified on 9/17/2009 2:23:31 AM