Life was simple when I grew up...  

 
When I learned English (as a second language, mind you...) I was always taught that "they / them" are 3rd person plural pronouns.    For e.g.  They went to the mall, They went to the movies..  Doesn't tell me if the people I am talking about are men or women or both..  It just tells me that there is more than one... If it were one person we would say, He went to the mall.  She went to the movies...  

 
Back in the late 80s and early 90s when  I came of age, there were only two genders.. You were either a man or a woman... Prior to that in the 1940s and 1950s there was only one gender..  Either you were a man or not.. Things got blurred in the 60s an 70s - Lot of weed I think... Some great music came out of those times Pink Floyd, Fleetwood Mac, The Who..... Sorry.. I digress..  

 
Snap !! Snap !!!  Back to the present..  

 
So I run into this person on Seeking Arrangement who does not conform with this age old tradition of binary pronouns and decides to refer to oneself as "they" - a pronoun that is usually reserved for third person plural. I engage in conversation because I am a curious creature,, and ask "them" a few questions...  Turns out this person was born with all female organs... A vagina (which we lovingly call pussy on this board, because it's a fuckboard), Breasts..  "They" possibly get "their" period too - although I didn't ask..  Nice long hair - down to the shoulders.. Looked very feminine..  But turns out this person doesn't call  themselves a female?  What gives?  

 
I pry more..  Again I am a curious creature. I ask this person if "they" are transexual...The answer is "Nope".. Just "Non Binary.. Not a man or a woman.."  

 
Now.. now.. now.. Before you start spewing your hateful comments at me..  I am smart enough to understand Transexual alright..   A person trapped in woman's body wants to act like a man.. So this woman pumps herself with chemicals and tries to live out her fantasy as a man.. Same goes for men too.. Trapped in man's body and want to wear a dress.. Pump some chemicals and go for it..  Chop that cock off if you want to live a civvie life. If you want to be a hooker, keep that schlong. Some guys love hot dogs.  I am all for it.. I am quite libertarian like that..  

 
But some of you better minds help me understand Non Binary.. That sounds like experiencing vacuum when it comes to one's own gender.  As if it's not hard enough to explain someone what it exactly means to be a man or a woman without talking about one's anatomy, now try explaining someone what it means to be neither.

 
Seems like someone had way too much time on their hands and came up with this novel concept for their own mental masturbation and to fuck with the rest of us..  I would have fucked "them" had "they" given me a chance, and I can go along with the whole pronoun shit to get laid, but it looked like  "they" realized that I wasn't into this whole mental gymnastics so "they" ceased the conversation..  

 
Any better minds what to explain me this concept  so I can get a better grasp on this...

AI may even help. (By the way this isn't not a new or novel concept as it dates back to the 14th Century). Try not to be enbyphobic.

Oh my.. Another big word I see.....Not a problem. I know that one and didn't have to Google...   No I do not hate anyone or dislike anyone for who they are, or more appropriately, what they think they are..  I am simply trying to understand.  

 
As far as Google or AI... Been there.. Done that... Useless in this case.. Great to find local places to eat, but useless in this case..   Also not interested in some academic nonsense - if academics are known to be any good at, it's one thing.. Making simple things more complicated.  Interested in YOUR perspective.. YOUR critical thinking..  

 
Also, are you sure in 14th century they had 30 genders..  Because that's what your Google says exist..

-- Modified on 1/26/2025 4:04:35 PM

the use of they is similar to the use of, what I hear is called, the royal we. It is a way of referring to oneself in the 3rd person. Some people have used the gender based pronouns in a similar way -- "He/She went to the store." when talking about themself.

 
I'm not quite sure I would find a conversation with such people enjoyable but it might be interesting for a short time. But, for me at least, a bit creepy too. Way too much _Silence of the Lambs_ vibe.

Sounds like you wanted to hook up with this person, they got sick of you prying and asking questions, and told you to buzz off or ghosted you. There are lots of things in life I don't understand as in why people say what they say or do what they do, but as an actual Libertarian I just move on with my life and don't give it another thought. Live and let live. Unless someone is actually causing harm in my life it is not a concern I have. Someone can ask you to refer to them with a certain pronoun. You can either oblige or move on. It is really that simple.  

No.. No.. No my friend..   Royal We is just an attempt to elevate your status.    

 
These folks really believe that they don't conform to being female or being male - regardless of what biology suggests.  They either think they are really better than rest of us or have some sort of mental issues - or both..  

 
I was starting to enjoy the conversation for the novelty of having such conversation...  I am in the most boring business.. I don't meet interesting people like this. lol

Ricky be stealing …, 😂😂😂

END OF MESSAGE

Yes, I wanted to hook up but I wanted to understand this person as well.  It's important, for me, to ask questions if I want to understand something.  If you don't ask questions then you end up assuming, and you know what they say about ASSuming.  

 
Now, you see if the objective was something else - let's say it was to have a business deal - then who cares.. I can play right along and ignore that aspect...  

 
As far as Libertarian - Meh.. I don't think.. "Lets not do anything..".. "Let market forces alone decide" or "Lets just deregulate" is an answer to most complex questions.  I do like them for their stance on weed and prostitution though, but that's a discussion for PR board.  

 
Also being an actual Libertarian, or Democrat, or Republican, or Trumpy, shouldn't excuse you from trying to understand things and being intellectually curious or a critical thinker.  Imagine how little progress humans would have made had they been devoid of curiosity?

-- Modified on 1/26/2025 6:55:21 PM

Even earlier.  See "two spirits" -- term used among native americans

I'll push back a little on that claim as "we" has been used (not sure how much now) in both scientific and academic works by single authors when really talking about themselves, e.g., "we come to the conclusion that...". What I understood that form to be was trying to lower the author rather than making the claim of "I come to the conclusion..." which can come across as You idiot readers have have me show you the way whereas the we does at least leave the open for the author including the reader on the journey -- though clearly only as a passenger. But that's not really your interest.

 
As for the they/them (and this was a bit more where I was going with the royal we as my understanding was the king used that because the king was in a sense supposed to represent to body politic and all the people in the kingdom -- more theory/ideal than practice no doubt) given many of the transgender people find themselves in a situation of multiple genders in a sense. Born biologically one but psychologically and perhaps emotionally identify with another. So perhaps they distance themself from the I and see their existence a bit from the outside, hence they/them.

 
But I'm more with the what's in a name or word crowd -- if someone wants to call themself whatever fine with me. At least these are pronounceable and not like Prince with his name change to a symbol.

I appreciate your response but honestly have zero insight as to why a woman would not want to be called she. I am 100% female and 100% heterosexual, so I've got nothing!

that this particular adult human has chosen to live a life outside of the pigeon holes to which most of us have been exposed.  The great thing is, their ability to live their life as they please, does not require you to understand their reasons or motivations.

 
However, if you want to believe yourself to be tolerant or compassionate, it does require that you respect their wishes and you live and let live.  Period.

If you have dick, you're a male and if you don't, you're female.  I have the ultimate respect for those people who realized at some point in their lives that they are the wrong gender and then have the appropriate gender-reassignment surgery to correct the mistake that nature made.  However, there are many who want to be fluid in what gender they are, leaving the possibility of switching back and forth on a whim, and that shows no commitment to their belief that their birth-gender was a mistake, so I cannot take them seriously when they want to pretend there are more than two genders simply to account for their own lack of commitment.    

 
For a male who is committed to sacrificing his dick to present himself as the opposite gender will not get any argument for me and I would happily refer to her as a girl/woman from then on.  Same with a woman who has an addadicktome in order to surgically become a male.  I will accept him as such.  Claiming that you are one gender while you still have the sex organs of the other gender is just a scam IMO.  As you can see, simplicity and common sense are the bywords for me.  

what I don't get is when dealing with this person, directly/one to one, when would their pronouns ever come up? Unless it was a threesome... or a TER review...

I don't get it. RickEy Henderson, MLB stolen base champ? ("Ricky be stealing.")  
Ricky Henderson Australian Football?  
Some other Ricky Henderson?
.
What does either Henderson have to do with pronouns and trans?

I think you are thinking too hard.. LOL..   Ricky Henderson, the great American Ball Player, who passed away recently,  
always used to refer himself in third person.    So it was as if he was part of the third person pronoun community. But No, in reality, he was 100% male.

-- Modified on 1/27/2025 8:19:18 AM

I agree with you 99.99%, although I don't think most people in this  Non-Binary category are trying to scam someone as that would indicate a nefarious intent - unless I am not seeing any angle you are. I just think they are deeply confused..  To make the matter worse, they are being encouraged by extremely left leaning, mostly academic, outlets  

 
I also have tremendous amount of respect for those who are willing to have permanent changes to their body made to live another gender. That's some firm commitment right there.  

 
For the person who told me to use Google.....  Here is what I googled.. "How many genders are there.." Turns out there are 72 of them..    Oh well.. I would have guessed 30. I would have been off by more than half.. lol

-- Modified on 1/27/2025 8:45:55 AM

what they should be sexually?

 
It should be their business, and the people they choose to interact with.

 
So long as no one is imposing themselves upon another, let people be whatever they feel like being.

over the gender choices of others? How does it affect you if someone with a dick wants to be called "she?" Or "they?" And now we're seeing the (over) reaction to all this by people who feel threatened.
Nobody's "grooming" you or yours. Did "Ru Paul's Drag Race" make people unwantedly trans?
Geesh.

Missing the point Mr. Fish...  First of all its not about sex.. This is more about gender identification.  Secondly, its as much a social issue as it's their personal issue.

In this particular marketplace it's not a hard path to follow. If anything in an ad or post makes you uneasy, you move on to the next one. I find the whole gender identity thing to be a bore, however in this country it is anyone's right to call themselves whatever they want, just like it is my right to not worry about whatever message they are trying to send and just move on.

I think perhaps this whole topic might be understood in a reaction to change framing as well.  According to the wiki below the whole gender identity thing is fairly new (1950s or a bit later). Before that it seemed to be largely a linguistic thing. Now that it's become an identity thing and in public discussion some don't like the change because they either have to change what they think or hold tight to it. I suspect in many cases it is something people before never really gave any thoughts about but had some notion in their heads they never needed to articulate. Now they do and most hate to deal with change and especially change that challenge their own current world view.

 
Personally I think people would do better by trying to figure our new words, and actual distinctions between the differing genders. The old male/masculine female/feminine plus some neutral gender (I think often used for inanimate objects) sort of fit with the level of biologic science of old but event here what gender is applied to asexually reproducing lifeforms?  

 
But at the root, gender is just like any other system of trying to classify and distinguish into various phenotypes. Just more of the politicization of things in the modern world.

Some girls have giant cocks and there isn't anything you can do about it, especially when they have gigantic, titanic titties. I don't care about Trumps executive order, its you guys who are wrong and I'm not afraid to say it!

Aha! We didn't know that RH used the third person to refer to themself. THAT explains the mention! We thank you very much for splainin'!

to the extent that they are trying to hide their lack of commitment.   At my business, I have Lesbian and gay employees, some for 20+ years, but so far, none of them have publicly expressed any desire to transition from one gender to the other, and many don't get the reason why there has to be more than two genders.  They are doing quite nicely being one or the other but still being attracted to the same sex as themselves.  They have no desire to "transition" to anything else or to make up new genders to help them understand their own confusion, because they are not confused.  They know where and how they fit into the community-at-large the way they are.  (No pun intended.)

I have to ask, what kinda answers where you looking for from a young lady on SA, who's only looking for a reasonable arraignment at a price she's comfortable with. You think she wants to get into the "who" or "why" of how she identifies herself ?She was probably rolling her eyes during all this, thinking like "WFT".
And if I may ask, her age is? And yours is? My bet is that there's a 30 or more year difference between the both of you.  
I think you're looking for answers in all the wrong spots. I mean, really...SA???
In the late 60's early 70's i had long hair, a beard and was strutting with my bell bottoms, yeah I was a "Hippie", as they would say. The looks I got from older people. But anyways....
I'd say live and let live.... don't know why you're tripping over this.

You do realize I am only 43... So with 30 yr difference that makes her 13.. LOL..  No she was like 30. So 13 yr difference.  

 
Also I didn't seek out SA to find these answers... The conversation just kinda fell into my lap. I send out 100s of feelers using a template based on very perfunctory scanning of the profiles,

 
Furthermore, I have been on SA for 10 yrs. So I have as much experience in Sugar world as I have in P4P world. Some of the most interesting people you will find can be found on SA.  Every relationship is different and that's the beauty of it. No cookie cutter stuff.  I have met single moms, married poly women, PhD student,  IT Programmer, even fucked a lead singer of a small cover band once. Met a woman who had gone thru unimaginable tragedy in life.   Some of them are even my facebook friends.

-- Modified on 1/27/2025 6:02:28 PM

If she really wanted to be girl, there is a surgery available that will make that happen.  I don't know what kind of providers you see, but there are many guys who are into trannies, and believing they are real women makes them FEEL more straight to be looking at her nice C-cups while they are sucking her dick.  I understand the psychological self-manipulation, so I'm not going to argue with trannie customers.  I'm just saying if she was REALLY interested in spending her life as a woman, she would want to make the commitment to her belief and get the surgery.   If you say she hasn't saved enough money yet, then I would give her a pass on being a phony.  I might even contribute to a funding website to make her dream come true, but then the customers would lose a giant cock to suck or fill their ass with, so I don't see them contributing to help a trannie get there who has a goal of crossing the finish line.  Better living through medicine.

I didn't read the wiki page, but I would make one change from:  
"the whole gender identity thing is fairly new (1950s or a bit later)."
to
"the whole VERY PUBLIC, IN YOUR FACE gender identity thing is fairly new (1950s or a bit later)."  
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The "reality" of gender identity stuff goes WAY back, probably even to early humans. (Some non-human primates display homosexuality and other non-binary behavior.) Some chiefs, priests, kings, etc. were known to dabble outside the purely hetero realm. Peking Opera http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peking_opera goes back to the 1600s and was exclusively males playing M and F roles. The homosexuality aspect was a subject in the award winning film Farewell My Concubine  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farewell_My_Concubine_(film)  
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Japanese Noh Theater goes back to the 1300s and was also exclusively male, M playing both M and F roles. I wouldn't be surprised if patrons and actors didn't get their act on in private.
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Fast forward into the 1900s, there was some well known English Bishop who had been cross-dressing for decades. Once a week, he would dress up and go shopping in the city with his wife. On one occasion (now in his late 60s or 70s?), someone bumped into them in a shop and said, "Hello Bishop Smith. Hello Mrs. Smith. See you on Sunday." or some other simple, quiet non-outing greeting. The Bishop announced that he would be stepping down.  THEN it hit the headlines.  
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Alfred Kinsey published famous studies on human sexuality beginning in 1948:  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Reports
Kinsey had a non-binary scale of hetero- / homo- sexuality:
http://www.theeroticreview.com/discussion-boards/ter-general-board-12/kinsey-report-and-the-spectrum-of-homo-hetero-858933
"Many men are 10, many are 9, .... some admit that are 6 ... some are 2, a few percent are 1.  
(What is the current estimate of homosexual men in the US population? 5%?)
.
Many women are 10 ... ... some are 6 ... a few percent are 1.
(What is the current estimate of homosexual women in the US population? 5%?)
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According to Kinsey, sexual (gender) identity s not a Yes-No All-or-None thing."
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Masters and Johnson did publish famous studies on human sexuality beginning in the 1950s.
http://www.theeroticreview.com/discussion-boards/ter-general-board-12/re-personally-i-get-more-pleasure-from-my-legs-partially-closed-rather-than-fully-open-1016982
"Masters and Johnson pioneered studies on Human Sexual Response.  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masters_and_Johnson ..."
.
I'm guessing that the wiki page mentions Kinsey and M&J as having ramped up public awareness and discussion of this stuff in the 1950s.

Your last statement: "So long as no one is imposing themselves upon another ..." seems to be a major point of controversy. E.g., physically based M-F sports (born-M-trans-to-F athletes clobbering their born-F-still-F competition) have rules that some feel *impose* barriers to F participation or success. (Non-athletic competitions -- chess, math olympiads, etc. -- are still controversial to SOME people: "Unfair! F brains aren't as good at math!" "... chess!" I disagree.)  
.
There may be other situations where some have a feeling of "imposition."  
.
In Boston and NYC, I see lots of people that I truly cannot ID as M or F. Purple Mohawk hair, "man hands" and "man feet" and other manly traits but big man-boobs? or are those F-boobs? and other traits that I can't interpret as M or F. When they are ringing up a purchase at the cash register, I DON'T CARE! ... as long as they are polite and give me the correct change. That is NO imposition as far as I'm concerned. (Maybe some customers consider purple dyed hair to be an imposition ... not me!)

(I honestly can't keep track of the nomenclature: Is "born-M-trans-to-F" a "trans M" or a "trans F"? Does trans refer to the BEFORE gender or AFTER gender? Does "She's a trans-M" refer to a M-trans-to-F she or a F-trans-to-M she? I am positive I have seen both usages or been otherwise confused.)

I don’t really care how a person wants to identify as long as it’s not a biological male trying to compete in women’s sports or use their locker rooms.

the problem with gender fluidity.  If Trump had not been elected, we were not far from a day when there would be a collegiate women's soccer or softball team winning a national championship because 80% of the players had dicks.   Anyone who thinks this is fair should be castrated.  (Let the punishment fit the crime - Lol)

Trump campaigned on this, and he won the election handily with a broad coalition of voters that were formerly Dem voters.  Who does that make the delusional idiot?

that roughly 1.6% of the population is trans?  The number of people who are actually transgender post-op is a fraction of one percent.  The rest are not really committed, mostly posers and scammers IMO.

As SnowKing points out, very few people in the US are trans. (Estimates range from 0.5% to 1.6%.) And they are not all "fully" transitioned by CDL's standard and even FEWER are competitive athletes who have met the criteria set by their sports' governing bodies for hormone levels, etc.. I.e., there are just a few HEADLINE GRABBING instances.  
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Only in CDL's and Trump's fever dreams will there be 80% XY-M-to-XY-F trans players in F sports. Many of the governing bodies are changing their rules and requirements from JHS to HS to Collegiate levels. International and Olympic sports admins are also examining and changing rules. My opinion is that XY-M-to-XY-F trans should not be allowed to compete against XX-F in physical sports, even non-contact sports (weightlifting). I interpret the papers that I currently read to mean that post-pubescent M-to-F trans have a developmental advantage that can't be "equalized" by hormone or other treatments. That's IMO. Correction: let them compete in the same individual (not team) events but not to win the F-medals. If they "win" on time (racing) or weight (lifting) or distance (shot put, long jump, pole vault,...) or "points" (shooting, archery, ...) let them win an XY-M-to-XY-F Trans Medal.  
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Trump was able to elevate a FEW headline grabbing stories into a MAJOR campaign issue. An NCAA National Championship is a HEADLINE. A 3rd place finish at Rinky-Dink College with a crowd of 23 people and no TV cameras is a nothing-burger. It's kind of ironic that Lia Thomas, the M-to-F trans swimmer who won the NCAA DI Championship 500y freestyle in 2022 contributed to Trump's election (by winning the race) and now Trump is coming after Thomas and other trans athletes. (I don't think Thomas should have been allowed to compete or at least not to "trophy" against the XX-Fs. Maybe compete and push the competition to swim faster but not to medal if finishing 1, 2, or 3. Or maybe some other kind of medal for a winning time, but: F 1st medal, F 2nd medal, F 3rd medal and a Trans 1st medal) .

He agrees with Trump that biological males should not be able to compete in women’s sports. He agrees with SoftKing that in his opinion it’s a minor problem, but one that Trump used in the election to his advantage.

If I’ve read Imp correctly here, I think I agree with him.

but that doesn't make me one.  Dems got sold a whole truckload of Kool-Aid on the DEI bullshit.  You are what you are, regardless of what you think you are.  Facts are facts.  

Dooooo tell, how did 11 M I L L I O N Democrat voters just not show up for what we were screamed at by the main stream media was the most important election of OUR FUCKING LIVES???  

Riddle me that Bat Turd?

"biological males should not be able to compete in women’s sports" -- is a SIMPLIFICATION (and misrepresentation) of what I said. I opened up the possibility of allowing XY-M-to-XY-F trans to PARTICIPATE in F sports but only to medal in a Trans category. Finishing in the top 3, followed by an XX-F in 4th place merits the following medals:
1st F gold, 2nd F silver, 3rd F bronze
.
XY-F Trans gets a T-medal consistent with their time:
T-F-F-F = T-gold FFF gold-silver-bronze
F-T-F-F = T-silver FFF gold-silver-bronze
F-F-T-F = T-bronze FFF gold-silver-bronze
F-F-F-T = T-no medal FFF gold-silver-bronze
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Currently, there are M sports and F sports. There is NO third category of Trans sports because there are so few trans athletes. "The" trans sprinter could walk 100 meters in 2 minutes against zero competition and claim a gold medal. "The" trans gymnast could get an all-around score of 2.34 and claim the gold medal. By allowing the trans athletes to compete in F sports (or maybe even M sports), they can post their best competitive times and medal accordingly. There would still be harm to the #Nth XX-F qualifier who would be bumped from a place in, e.g., an 8-lane pool (or a similar bump in track or other sport where the side-by-side competition is so restricted). I don't have a solution to that, yet.
.
In sequential sports (shot put, archery, triple jump, ...), you step up to the line and advance to the next round if you score high enough in that round. As above, "the" T-competitor can advance but there is still room for the "last" XX-F qualifier.  E.g., let's say the top 4 finishers qualify:  
F-F-F-F-F-T-F-F-F : F-F-F-F qualify, T and the other Fs get benched
T-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F : T qualifies and the next 4 FFFF (2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th) qualify and all others get benched
F-F-F-T-F-F-F-F-F: T qualifies and the top 4 FFFF (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th) also qualify and all others get benched
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As an XY-M swimmer, Thomas had competitive times against Ivy League M competition.  
Nationally, XY-M Thomas was a top 100 in the 1650 y freestyle. (Top 100 out of how many total?).  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lia_Thomas
.
"... By the conclusion of Thomas's swimming career at UPenn in 2022, her rank had moved from 65th on the men's team to 1st on the women's team in the 500-yard freestyle, and 554th on the men's team to fifth on the women's team in the 200-yard freestyle. According to the swimming data website Swimcloud, Thomas was ranked 36th among female college swimmers in the United States for the 2021–2022 season, and 46th among women swimmers nationally. ..."
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"... In June 2022, the International Swimming Federation (FINA), an organization that administers international aquatic sports competitions, voted to bar all transgender athletes from competing in professional women's swimming, with the exception of athletes who "can establish to FINA's comfortable satisfaction that they have not experienced any part of male puberty beyond Tanner Stage 2 (of puberty) or before age 12, whichever is later". ..."
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OK ... back to what I said about MAYBE allowing participation. There may be a way to allow "fair" XY-F competition in the XX-F events. In the made-for-TV movie version, the XX-F medalists and record breakers gather around the T-medalist with hugs saying, "I don't think I would have broken the record without you pushing me to compete even harder. ... I'm going to Disney World!"

I think my short form answer was a clear and concise summary of your viewpoint. That said, your solution addresses a way to integrate some trans athletes into individual women’s sports. That doesn’t address team sports.  

Would you concede that biological males have no place in women’s team sports?

I don't think your concise summary was clear or fair. But let's see:  
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- There are individual non-contact sports (weightlifting, swimming, skiing, singles kayaking ...) where my suggestion might apply.

- There are indi contact sports that are controversial (even when there are no trans involved!!), e.g., boxing. ("Their boxer beat our boxer! Must be a trans!!" (For DECADES, the Commies were accused of -- and probably guilty of -- using drugs (steroids, etc.) to masculinize their F teams into dominance in many sports. I remember a humor magazine article from the 1960s or 1970s about East German domination of the F Olympics titled: "The Women Who Run Funny" sarcastically written from the point of view of ignorance: 'gee, they're really good, but they kind of run funny.')  

- There are team non-contact sports (crew, toboggan, ...) where an XY-M-to-XY-F can provide a huge advantage (powerful rowing; strong "pusher" to build up toboggan speed) and my suggestion might still apply: a class for all XX-F gold-silver-bronze medals and a medal class for teams with any XY-F trans member.  Once MANY teams from 100+ countries add an XY-M-to-XY-F trans to their team, you add a new category: all XX-F toboggan and mixed XY-F XX-F toboggan as separate competitions.

- There are team sports that are contact sports: soccer, lacrosse, basketball, ... where I do not have a fix other than to restrict participation of XY-Fs to protect the safety and fairness of the XX-F sport.