How do you all read this decision?

In the splitting of hairs regarding this first amendment issue I had once heard that the accepted spirit was "freedom from religion' more than "Freedom of religion". In spite of the conservatives efforts to push the Supreme Court to champion a Christian cant to their decisions it looks to me that the court is merely favoring voucher entitlements to support the "public" school systems.

the FL STATE constitution requires that all children be allowed an equal education.  This is a typical detailed state consitution the enumerates specific rights, as compared to the Feds, where due process (ie fundamentally fair) is the basic requirement, and education is never mentioned.

Remember that Plessy v Ferguson (separate but equal) is dead as a doornail, over 50 years now.  The FL Supremes had no choice.  They had to rule.  Had they punted, the US SCt could have FORCED them to rule.

So they have to go back into those classrooms.

At least the teachers have jobs and the kids won't have to hear the myth about jesus.

they can get F's learning about derwon and evluton

That this is the court that attempted to pick Al Gore over George Bush.

No surprises here.

There is a fundamental question beneath this debate (and I think it's a good debate that should get plenty of attention): how potent are market forces in meeting out goods and services that we need to make as equitable as possible?  E.g., optimize education for all children.  Are market forces more effective and more efficient than the public sector?  

On one hand, we know there are public schools that fail, teachers at the bottom of the pile are not moved out and whole school cultures that thwart education for motivated students with limited options.  

On the other, what inequities are built into vouchers and market forces?  What happens when a student body is more fluid? What are the criteria for qualifying a school? What forces create a curriculum? What happens when schools use marketing tools with children and parents?  

I just think there are powerful arguments to both sides of the equation.  Somewhere, I don't trust market forces to be the driver of programs where equity needs to be assurred.  But I am not exactly clear why I feel this way and I do also see a logic in the contrary position....

I don't think that there's really a free market, because there is a tremendous disincentive to commuting to a school more than a few miles away - as a practical matter, 80% of the parents are going to stay local, so geography becomes a monopoly issue that limits useful choices.

Another question is how much national interest is there in a standardized education?   Will there be any minimal licensing or accreditation?

Maybe local solutions work best; perhaps market forces would be necessary to organize ghetto schools.

But the only organizations with the resources to suck up those vouchers are the church schools - the Catholics and the evangelicals.  Cut away the BS, and the voucher proposal is nothing more than a full employment act for the pervert priests and the televangelists.   Just another subsidy for "intelligent design".

understand it, but at some point, you have to put some effort into your own education.

This comes straight to me from several family members who work in the public education system.

It has nothing to do with religion, but opponents like to use the whole religious education aspects as a smoke screen to avoid the real issues. There are several private education facilities that are not religious based-and you can use the collegiate system as a model for private vs. public institutions.

Factor 1-Loss of revenue to the public school systems. If vouchers are allowed to stand, public school districts stand to lose millions in the form of federal and state funding. Due to poor management, undue union influence, and excessively burdensome regulation, education funds are squandered and not used for the primary purposes-teaching students. Public teacher unions have too much sway and influence with the states. Decreased revenues would require spending cuts or tax increases, which would backlash against the unions. Point in favor of vouchers if it forces a re-evaluation of how eductaion in the public schools is occurring.

Factor 2 (and this one is actually more disturbing)-Public schools are REQUIRED to provide education to all eligible students, private schools are not. This means that a parent could enroll their student in a private school, if the student is not meeting the requirements of the school, that student could be kicked out, and forced to attend public school-with the loss of revenue because that voucher had been used. There is a fundamnetal inequality that has not been addressed. The fear (and I think it's a legitimate fear) is that all the "bad apples" will be forced to attend public schools-which will just make things worse. Or, private schools will not open in economically disadvantaged areas, while public schools must open, and a greater education rift will occur.

The whole religion aspect is total BS, and if voucher systems became more common, you would find educational entreprenuers opening up primary, profit oriented, facilities. I can easily see Microsoft High School, or Ted Turner Middle School (there might actually be one in Atlanta already-his name seems to be everywhere as it is).

The concpet and desired goals of vouchers are admirable, however,as the saying goes, the devil is in the details. Until you take the social engineering crap out of the eductaion process, and return to the basics of or 'Readin, 'Ritin, & 'Rithmetic-the public school system is nothing more than publicly subsidized adolescent day care.

"""Somewhere, I don't trust market forces to be the driver of programs where equity needs to be assurred.""""

Precisely.


we cannot afford that in education so in as much as it would benefit me a great deal to have vouchers, too many would lose.

face it, there is a basket at the bottom, some are in that basket cuz they have to be, others because of their own behavior. shitty students tend to have parents who are losers too. i see that a lot. BUT, if we left these to their own devices, they would be up on societies metaphoric rooftop waiting for the "Brownies" of this world to chopper em out.

OTOH, I have a great deal of contempt for current pub ed. I think when you consider how much we pay fore what we get, the return is terrible. Somewhere in there is a big crime...

thnx

[[Until you take the social engineering crap out of the eductaion process, and return to the basics of or 'Readin, 'Ritin, & 'Rithmetic-the public school system is nothing more than publicly subsidized adolescent day care.]]

You can't stick everybody or most people with a basic rote curriculum.  You can't bang kids' knuckles and think they're gonna learn.  Now bouncing an eraser might be an attention-getter...

The problems are that there is a wide school of thought, based in psychologists and mothers who believe, based on feelings and statistics, that you can't do well until you feel good.   They fail to understand that if a person feels good BEFORE they do well, it's because they're out of touch.  Ie., it's the performance that leads to the self-esteem, not vice versa.

And the scientists and coaches oblige this BS, because everybody thinks the cheerleaders are cute, and nobody wants them to be unhappy, and besides, what harm can they do?  Who can they hurt?  

THEY can't hurt anybody.  But WE can hurt ourselves by reversing logic.

So Johnny can't do something, and he feels bad.  OK.  I'll give him a little permission slip, he doesn't have to feel bad.  I'll even give him a weak test, so he can get a better score.  The problem comes when we pretend he knows the material.  He doesn't, and nobody has the right to pretend he does.

The solution is to teach the kids to do hard stuff, and let them draw their own conclusions about their abilities.

We need a varied and disciplined curriculum.  We need to give all kids reasonable options to master basic skills, develop their strengths, and mitigate their weaknesses.  We need to emphasize PT, even if it costs money, because obesity and depression are major health issues - both can be mitigated by getting kids in the habit of taking the initiative to get up off their ass and go DO SOMETHING!!