Israel's actions threaten to make the entire Middle East into a failed state, and/or start a World War.  I don't believe the degree of recklessness here.  Not just by Israel, but by the US supporting them (but I've long had a hard time believing US wrecklessness).  Are country is in the same position that Germany was in the week prior to WWI with its unconditional support of Austria-Hungary, with a leader far more hapless than Kaiser Willhelm.  

To cite the degree of threat, fundamentalists Christians are ecstatic about it.  It looks to them like the rapture could start any second.  

There are so many what-if's that we have no power to diffuse right now.  What if: Syria gets involved?  What if: Iran gets involved?  What if: this causes popular rebellions in Egypt, Saudi Arabia or even Pakistan?    

Meanwhile, Israel has told the Lebanese in the south to leave their country-- the same thing the Serbs did in Bosnia and Kosovo.  That stabilizes things, putting a few hundred thousand refugees into Jordan and Syria.  

Need I ask: wasn't it an Israeli invasion into Lebanon that brought Hezbollah into existence to begin with?  How effective can this be?  It might make Israelis feel valiant about their cause; war does do that, but that's no excuse for making the same wearisome mistake.

I'll breach the larger question: It's fair to ask  what purpose Israel serves, as it was created as the last act of a colonial power.   It doesn't reduce anti-Semitism; it has just outsourced Anti-Semitism to the Arabs.  It's never going to be secure.  It's never going to spread democracy to it's neighbors: who hate it with cause.  It's never going to be self-supporting.   All that living within a border really does is give enemies a target to attack.  Meanwhile, as a necessity of survival, it prompts intrigues that make the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" look like self-fulfilling prophecies, considering the sway it has on the US.  Moreover, I could think of but a few things that Jews could gain living in Israel that they couldn't gain living anywhere else.

So, what purpose does it serve, really?  



-- Modified on 7/22/2006 12:24:53 PM

Why does Israel, or for that matter any other sovereign country, NEED to serve a purpose?

And if any particular sovereign country doesn't...
What then?

Kudos for making the comparison to the Serbians.

[Bonus humor time :  what do you call a Serbian with the world's most effective and unrelenting PR campaign?  An Israeli!  Har !  Har !  HAR !]

I saw today that the US is "expediting" the delivery of munitions to the IDF.  Great work on our part.

Yep, the Israeli invasion in 1982 was the cause of Hexbollah's founding.  And noticed how successful that invasion was in destroying the PLO?  But it's all down the pro-Israel memory hole.  And, the Israeli-Jordanian attack on the PLO in September 1970 was the cause of their migration to Lebanon, which was the cause...

I hope you are prepared for the onslaught.

But hey, it's belived to be good for Israel, and that's the bottom line  many, costs to the US notwithstanding.

And remember, in US politics, what Israel whats, Israel gets!  Just ask AIPAC. That is, if DocGonzo and Riem don't object.

your comment "I'm hardly an anti-semite, either.  I almost married a Jewish woman."

is insulting.

go read my response to NOSC. or don't. i don't give a fuck what you do.

As I have already stated, I no longer give a fuck what you, or NOSC, or anyone else thinks about the Middle East.

You haven't been there, you haven't been exposed to it first hand, you haven't felt the sting of shrapnel enter your body followed by the splattering of your friends brain against your face. I have.

Until you've tasted it first hand, you've got no clue.

Now go fuck yourself.

interalize it for a short period.

Imagine you lived in Miami and Cuba was lobbing 50 missiles a day into your neighborhood and family and friends were being killed.

What would expect or want to happen? What do you think the U.S. response would be?

It might have been stereotyping inadvertantly.  I admit, not too many Jews would enjoy being in *that* one category, but to be fair, though, Dr., not too many Neo-Nazi's would ever be intimate with Jewish women either.  

I shouldn't have gone there, though, in trying to credential myself with my personal life and just let the anticipated criticism stand.  It should go without saying, I don't think of myself as bigot.  I was anticipating insults.  

Not exactly a good apology, I know, but I don't know how to apologize for that insult, then.  I'll take it down.

I can't blame you for your hatred, your drive for revenge, or your dedication to your native land.  For two months after 9/11, I was ready to kill every Arab on the planet.  I hoped for a war.  That was just a sample of how you must feel. You come by your attitude directly and naturally.  

Tell me to fuck off as much as you want, but I will point out that bad geo-political policy leads to injury and hatred that can't be healed.  It changes people irreversibly.  For the species to survive now, I'm frightened that we can't afford it.

"It's fair to ask  what purpose Israel serves, as it was created as the last act of a colonial power."

I just underline this fact.  Of course, you are free to reject that argument.

However, the British felt compelled not just to pull out of Palestine, but to create Israel first.  They did nothing like that in India or anywhere else for that matter.  Since then, the US has felt compelled to support it.  (It's indicative of the power of the Israeli lobby that the Senate will regularly support Israel 99-0).

I will add as pure conjecture that I think relations between Arabs and Jews would be very good at this point if it weren't for Israel.  If the Jewish state had been created right smack in the middle of Europe or the US, and the non-Jews treated like they have been in Palestine, can you imagine the European anti-semitism that would have come of it?

the fact is, we are dealing with a situation that encompasses the deepest and darkest parts of humanity.
and I am a human being, in spite of my also being Jewish. Zin, Israel is not my native country. I'm a first generation American born of East European parents both of whom survived the Nazi camps.Ironically, I was sent to Israel because of a crisis of faith. I wound up feeling much more Nationalistic about Israel, as the land of my ancestry, and where I experienced a spiritual awakening. But it has little to do with religion, and more to do with actual historical heritage. i'm proud of it, and I will defend it with everything i have.
Like the rest of the worlds Jews, I wish for peace on earth and goodwill towards all. And sadly, I recognize the words of Golda Meir all the more clearly than ever before: We will not have peace in the Middle East until the Arabs learn to love THEIR children more than they hate ours.

Sure you care -- that's why you obsessively respond to pretty much every post I create re the Near East/Middle East as well as any other post which doesn't reflect 1000% support of your beloved Israelis and their very questionable policies.

You brought up AIPAC?  Good, I know i'm getting to you.

Go fill up the monstrer trikeans inadvertently put a few more dollars into the hands of the Saudis.  Man, that must stick in your crw like rotten gefilite fish fish.  And stink twice as bad.

But please, please, please remember to brake for Pallys.

Responding willy-nilly and w/o restraint or tact [per your wont] to every and all posts which don't regard Israel and it's policies with the same breatless worship and stary-eyed admiration with which you choose to view them.

That's certainly your right, and all right with me.  I'm sure AIPAC will send you a gold star or something simlarly suitable for your valor and courage under rhetorical fire.  If you'd like, I'll submit a nomination in your name -- you certainly more than deserve it.

Doc, I know I'm probably not the best guy to cast stones, but do you have ANY idea o how malignantly hateful and ridiculous you come off when you are in your Stern Gang/Irgun  mode?

In real life, you're probably no worse than anyone else.  But  solely by the evidence of your rhetorical excess, I'd find it hard to argue that case.

Maybe your budy Riem, our resident IDF expert, can use his connections with Charles Krauthammer and get you on as one of Dr. K's patients?  I'm thiking, unresolved anger issues?

I remembered a post you made in your MZ days, after Arafat died.  I drew the conclusion that you were a native Israeli, and probably I remember some things about that post than I remember other things.  

More commentary later.  I have to sleep on the rest of your point.  

Re:Why not make Oklahoma the new Jewish Homeland.... (eom)

Because the KKK and Christian Evangelicals have made it impossible to be a Jew in Oklahoma.
Similar in intent, if not in appearance to the prohibition of Jews living in Arab countries. Or conquored territories.

Miami lobbing missels into Cuba is much more likely. Then again, rightwingers tend to project a bit.

Re:Why not make Oklahoma the new Jewish Homeland.... (eom)

The UK once offered the then-colony of Uganda as a Jewish homeland.

No doubt, in Doc's mind, the awful non-white population would have made it impossible to be a Jew there.

Doc, do you even realize how questionable it is when you insult and demean your own country in a perpetually lame attend to make the case for your misguided co-religionists in the Near East?

Wait, wait, I know -- you don't give an f**k what i think.  Sorry to have bothered you.

And Doc, I've asked this muchos tiempos before -- but are you willing, if only for the sake of consistency, to denounce and renounce all the silly Xtian Fundie support for Israel?  Take your time.

Re:Why not make Oklahoma the new Jewish Homeland.... (eom)

"The UK once offered the then-colony of Uganda as a Jewish homeland.
No doubt, in Doc's mind, the awful non-white population would have made it impossible to be a Jew there."

Besides letting you know your white hood slipped into view, your comment insinuating I am racially prejudiced against black people is disgusting and beneath contempt.

As far as Uganda being a homeland for the Jews...
if Uganda had had a significant history involving Jewish ancestry, then perhaps it would have some validity. But it didn't. It was merely an effort to copy what the Americans did to their own unwanted indigenous population... they call them Reservations when they are completely self-contained, or ghettos or barrios if within a governed area.

"Doc, do you even realize how questionable it is when you insult and demean your own country in a perpetually lame attend to make the case for your misguided co-religionists in the Near East?"

Why, no, Xiao, I don't. And you keep forgetting, that although my background includes extensive religious training, you're more religious than I am. Certainly more of a lemming, anyway.

"Wait, wait, I know -- you don't give an f**k what i think.  Sorry to have bothered you."

No bother, really. It's cathartic and fun reading your continued efforts. Its a similar exercise to when I will listen to a dogs bark to see if I can tell what key he's barking in. you are correct however, I don't. And by the way, its A f**k, not AN f**k.

"And Doc, I've asked this muchos tiempos before -- but are you willing, if only for the sake of consistency, to denounce and renounce all the silly Xtian Fundie support for Israel?  Take your time."

I'm sorry, I thought we'd covered this topic already. Here: let me put a band-aid on your boo-boo ----

I have stated several times how odious it is to me that the only people who seem to agree with my perspective towards the Middle East and Israel is the same Bush administration I detest loathe and despise.
This goes TENFOLD when it comes to Christian Fundamentalists who are supportive of the State of Israel. Surprised, Chowwie? Do you really think I, and every Jew on this planet doesn't know why the Christians support Israel? Its part and parcel and a vital organ in their efforts to forcibly create the conditions of Armageddon. not until Israel is Whole will Christ Return... or some such stupid nonsense. Then 144,000 of us will convert and the rest of us will burn. forget the asterisks, FUCK THEM. (and f**k you too.)

With friends like these, who needs enemies?

ie, artillery range.

but that doesn't answer the question.

If you want to reverse it, the question remains - assume that somebody was lobbing missiles into Havana from Miami - what sort of reaction do you think a Cuban govt could/should legimately have?

I think that if we look at the basic consensus of history of how the Israelis got to 1948 in Palestine, then it begs credibility to suggest that Jews suddenly materialized there, and suddenly elbowed aside the locals in 1948.

As Doc points out, there's something of a historical connection.  The state of Israel didn't fall out of the sky in 1948.  Arabs were doing anti-Jewish riots back in the 20s.

So what's the theory, that everybody should stay where they were born, and the Arabs have been  absolutely right in trying to whack out any newcomers?   What do you do when the newcomers turn out to be quicker on the draw than the natives?   Don't get in a gunfight with them, would be my 1st advice.

Re:Why not make Oklahoma the new Jewish Homeland.... (eom)

"With friends like these, who needs enemies?"

EXACTLY my thoughts re the US-Israeli "alliance."

Hey, a thought -- doesn't Uganda border Ethiopia?  And  isn't Ethiopia in legend the  Kingdom of Sheba?  And didn't King David, in legend, have a famous liason with the Queen of Sheba?  And didn't Haille Sallassie claim to be the descendant of that liason?  So, you see, there is some relationship.  Not one you like to trumpet, of course, and a lesser branch on the Israeli tree I'm betting you'd be more than happy to see pruned.  But it's a thought.

Of course, you might counter, it's all a myth.  But careful -- if you concede the possibility of myth here, whats to prevent a mischeivous person, perhaps myself, from wondering if some other myths might also be considered?  For examplem the book of  myths called The Holy Bible, which you and like-minded partisans of Zion parse with such painstaking detail, if not exactitute, to try to discover some, any, buttress for Israel's so-called ancient historic right to the lands it presently occupies?

But, don't worry Doc, even though you think I'm religious, I'm not, but I'm the kindly sort and I still forgive you your many and sundry verbal aggresiions against me.  I feel better every time i do that -- that is, forgive you. You might try it at least one time in your angry, crabbed, deeply-disturbed and highly emotional existence.  Has the cashiered IDF officer gotten you an appointment yet with Charles Krauthammer?

Doc, rereading this, I see I'm becoming the very things I despise about you -- preternaturally hostile, verbally over-aggressive, insulting, outright cruel, and a bunch of other stuff that's not really me.


But I still forgive you anyway, even when the summon the worse devils of my nature, today and all the rest of my questionable existence.

BTW, thanks for the grammar tip, but I'm pretty sure it was a typo.  I'll try to be more careful.

I had a much longer, detailed and pyschotically involved response composed originally last night, but it appears to have been moderated, and perhaps that's for the best.

Remember, kindly Xiao will always forgive you.  And it's got nothing to do with religion -- just simple humanity.  Try it some time -- it can take a little getting used to, but i'm betting you'll like it very, very much.  And others will like you much better as well!

Ciao!  Or is it chowwie!  Arff!!

Well, I do recall in the middle and late 1970 swhen Uganda was a mortal threat to world peace and a sworn enemy of the US -- simply because Geeral Idi Amin Dada had a less then worshipful attitude toward Israel.

When Idi was deposed, the "Uganda threat" miraculously disappeared.

mentioned this.

Your characterization of this sort of incident as "less than worshipful" - ie, holding people hostage in an attempt to force release of PLO captives - necessarily infers that targeting civilians is within the range of reasonable.   You may remember that 1 hostage was left behind - 75 year old Dora Bloch was taken to the hospital, and Amin had her shot in her hospital bed.

If that's so, then why should anybody object to Israel using Lebanon for a free-fire zone?

Or, you could argue that the media isn't fair to 3rd worlders, because they don't know how to read and write well enough to compete with the Jews.   I suspect that would be in the Department of Tough Shit.

Relax, Jack, I wasn't trying to defend that.

My reference was more general re the General -- as the Third World Flavor Of The month, Idi Amin Dada ws all the rage, got lots of media coverage, created lots more for himself with his vocal but purely boilerplate anti-Israel third world rhetoric, talked up the "Zionism Is Racism" resolution in 1975 which got Dam Moynihan elected to the US Senate, etc...

My point -- based on absolutely nothing except a less than worshipful attitude to Israel, this otherwise  obsure and insignificant leader of an conutry which was and is not exactly among the ranks of the Great Powers as envisioned by Leoplod von Ranke, suddenly became a great threat to the US.  As I recall, we actually at on pointed embargoed Ugandan coffee, their biggest cash export crop.  Sure didn't do much for the average Uganda, but Rabin and company seemed pleased as punch.  Yep, don't f**k with the Men Of Zion.

All because, I'm afraid, he hurt the ever-so-sensitive feelings of the spoiled child of American foreign policy.  And see, that's my basic point -- the state of bilateral Ugandan-Israeli relations does not in the slightest effect the state of US-Uganda relations, or at least ought not to.

All this, of course, was prior to his complicity in the hijacking.

A few other interesting things re Entebbe :

1. the one Israeli soldier killed on that mission was Yonathan Natahyahu, brother of the curiously named Bibi [but I suppose Xiaoming strikes a few as curious also];

2. The raid took palce on 070476 -- the US Bicentennial.  I'm sure that was aimed at us.  And's here's something i'll never forget.  Some Jewish spokesmaen in NYC claimed that the media deliberately and unfairly underplayed reporting on this story because of the Bi-Centennial [sure had me fooled] and blamed good old Guess What;

3. the Israelis had to cross several hundred miles of Kenyan airspace to enter Uganda.  W/o permission, that's close to, if not technically in fact, an act of war.  Guess who got the Kenyans to agreed not to compalin, not to react, to turn off their radars and stand down whatever they had in the way of air defenses, and all for the modest sum/fee/bribe of $25 million?  Now, THAT fact got very little media attention.  But of course -- otherwise it would seriously cast doubt upon the mega-narrative of the plucky, valiant, and ever-resoursceful Israelis overcoming daunting odds, etc... [Disclaimer -- this is sarcarsm, not to be confused with anti-semitism]. And, of course, I don't remember a thank you -- but I forget who we're dealing with.

4. By 12/77 there were 2 made-for-television movies about this event.  I managed to miss both of them, despite the fact that there were many perfomers I liked in the two flics.  I prefer my propaganda to be disguised as news, commentary, and analysis -- but not disguised as entertainment.