I'm upset that in Colorado High School students have been prohibited from displaying the American Flag.  A lot of people died, some of them very good friends of mine, for our rights and the right to display our flag.  Something is 180 degrees out here - IMHO.

First of all the ban is temporary and it is a ban on ALL flags carried by students due to the recent protests and walkouts (and is more probably aimed at trying to ban the Mexican flags, actually)--and they still fly the flag on the flagpole.

And I have to know, did you really make a habit of flying a flag when you went to high school? I guess that explains why you have trouble meeting women.

I too have lost friends in various wars.  Right now the godfather to my daughter is "somewhere" - as his rank is high enough - I cannot comment too much, but I do wonder what goes through the minds of those who, although they have a right to disagree with policy, do not respect the country and those who die to defend their right to be jack....es.

on somebody else's property?  Wrapped around their ass like a beach towel?  What is the story?

Secondly, how about some confirmation?

have a guilty conscience about this issue.   What seems more to the point is understanding that war is not per se a good thing, nor something to aspire to; and in fact a last resort, to be entered thoughtfully.   People who can't remember where they were for their ANG drills, or "had other priorities" than doing their own share of the dirty work, wouldn't seem like people who could be expected to understand this.

If indeed this principal flies the Mexican Flag - then he should get his aid from V Fox.  But he doesn't.

I don't. On so many issues it is not funny!  I cannot really say that I wanted us to invade Iraq.... actually that just seems stoopid.  But we are there now.

or are you just concerned about free-floating fear?

If flying the Mexican flag is the dumbest thing this particular principal does - ie, he needs to be told we're not in freaking MX - then I can show you a dozen school teachers who can beat that particular stupidity any day of the week, in issues that relate more directly to their job duties.

Whether a kid is allowed to paint their face is another issue.  Would you be particularly disturbed if kids showed up in Swedish or Irish colors?  Like maybe on St Paddy's day?

Good enough to pick your lettuce, but not good enough to go to school with your kids, is that it?

-- Modified on 4/2/2006 9:12:44 PM

only commenting that this business of invoking "deaths for freedom" is sort of pointless, and least convincing coming from those who never put themselves in the line of fire.

Second, yes, I would actually be upset if they flew the Freaking Irish flag... yet another "hot zone."  With respect to "job duties" do not go there with me.  Stupidity in our educational system is rampant all the way to the hallowed ivy halls.  Really, you know nothing about me, and yet you have made lots of assumptions....   really, it all starts with small stuff.... that we let go.  The original post was really disturbing - it enforces the concept of a lack of respect for the country, all that died for the country and all that are now doing the bidding of the country.  If we do not respect our own country, who will?  The Freaked out French?  look at what is happening there now.  

This is not rocket science, Mr. Spock.  Project 50 yrs into the future... what will be?

the original post was an unsupported allegation that somebody was not allowed to fly the US flag.

It seems unlikely to be true.  It could, God forbid, be somebody blowing smoke - of course that never happens.

But there are in fact circumstances that a person might be barred from flying a US flag, and the easiest one would be a case of trespass.

I think, if you look around on St Paddy's day, you will see enough Irish flags flying.  In fact, if yoou read, I didn't even say flying a flag - I said, kids showing up for school in colors, ie their faces painted - but you might have nothing to talk about if you checked your facts.

So don't let me keep you from panicking.  I just don't get off  on it, myself.

-- Modified on 4/2/2006 9:34:08 PM

Did you read the article? In the first paragraph, it stated that the Mexican flag was flown BELOW the American and Texas flag, and that the flag was flown to show support for the Hispanic students.

You make it sound like he pulled down the American flag and raised the Mexican flag in its place.

-- Modified on 4/2/2006 10:11:50 PM

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/13543.html

http://www.kvia.com/Global/story.asp?S=4711712&nav=AbC0

Wanna talk about conservative bias? The conservative article fails to mention that the ban was for students only and that the American flag is still displayed in every classroom, in common areas, the gym, offices, and on the school's flagpole.

It sounds like the ban was instituted because some students were using the American flag to taunt and harass Hispanic students.

My personal opinion, the ban is justified if the flags were being used to harass other students. That goes for any other flag or objects used in the same manner.

If the ban was instituted because the principle was anti-American, then I would support getting that person removed.

-- Modified on 4/2/2006 10:27:47 PM

Dear Mr. Bender; actually Yes, starting in the 7th grade I did join a group of students who carried our flag around campus several times a day.  I don’t see what that has to do with the statement “I guess that explains why you have trouble meeting women.”  FYI,  I hobby for the variety not because I can’t get all the civies I desire.  I’m confused by the note of anger in the post and am sorry that respecting our flag and our fallen veterans is not something everyone was exposed to in their formative years.  Take Care - W

I suspect that a principal should have better ways to control his students than flying a Mexican flag, even below any other.  

OTOH, we cannot hold a man responsible if we do not give him authority to judge a situation.

you got your information.  So pardon me if I can't share your panic; I've heard all this before, and I do realize that the gardener can have tremendous influence on the lawn, but yoou know, I've never had trouble firing people, or otherwise explaining what I need from them.  

I do note that the local business rag says that employer enforcement measures are expected to depress the economy by driving out the lower labor echelon, about 5% of the workforce.   We pay money to make business impossible.   What a good idea!  We can all go on welfare, right?

asking for facts - or perhaps in sticking to a single subject.

We have no information about why somebody in CO was not allowed to fly an American flag.  The absence of response makes me suspect that the poster does not care enough to confirm.  It's OK, I'm used to all sorts of panic for political purposes. Even if I don't find it particularly helpful.

So, what is it about this principal in Houston?  Is he a secret Mexican who is going to take over the school, and let in the Mexican Army?  

Are we afraid that we can't hold our own against the gardener?  Is the nanny bossing us around?  Or what?

It's quite obvious that Mexican politics and economy are lame & pathetic, when not vicious.  That is a lot of the reason that those who can get, come here.   If they don't fit in, they can go back.  OTOH, I don't see the harm in productive citizens.  In fact, I would like to work a deal with Fox, wherein we trade one Crip for one orange vendor.   For a few really hot chikas, he can have all the inmates of Pelican Bay.

But of course that analysis depends on judging individuals by their actions, rather than the color of their passport.

Mexicans?

There are a hell of a lot of Mexicans in jail, and also a bunch of blacks, and whites, etc.   They should all go to Antarctica.  

The Mexicans who are here have no more love for their own leaders than you or I do, and that is the reason they are here.   I think we are squandering a gift if we can't make use of this.

politics more entertaining, and more interactive.  However, I generally find little satisfaction in beating up little brown people who just happen to be looking for a job.  

Now, Charlie Manson, or Tookus Williams, or Little Timmy McVeigh, or the coldcalling securities salesmen, there are some boys worth beating up.

In fact, we might try Soviet style rehabilitation instead of just snuffing them.   What's to lose?  It might even work.

They are illegal !  we have immigration laws - I know- I went through the system.  FYI - I cannot even SEE the color of their passport - they are undocumented!  Sheese, there are laws, these people have broken them... get over it - it is not about color, race or anything else except that they did not register legally!  

I have no problem with them registering, coming here and working - staying or not... just do it by the book!  that is all.  

Oh, and while we are on the subject of legal, get hit by one driving his car - which won't pass emissions inspection - and see how much insurance he has... NONE - again - another law broken....

We either have laws and they are enforced - or we have no laws and are lawless....  not to mention without Lucy!  so Judging individuals by their actions, guilty!

I would suggest that you, as have I, go through the immigration process, it is not that hard, requires you understand the rule of law... that is all!

and you need to focus on a particular point before you can hope to make sense.

Of course, you should not let me interfere if you are just trying to entertain us all.   I know I can be a terrible wet blanket about politics, because I have little sense of humor about it - because too often it winds up with a few million people getting beaten up, and then we have to clean things up, and it's so goddamned boring...

YOU WROTE:
"However, I generally find little satisfaction in beating up little brown people who just happen to be looking for a job."

MY POINT:
In which of my posts do I advocate beating up anyone.  I simply am asking that workers coming into the country be documented as provide for in the immigration statutes - heck - even Gordon Lightfoot needed documentation!  sheese.... and I ceratinly would not beat up on him.

 
YOU WROTE:
"Now, Charlie Manson, or Tookus Williams, or Little Timmy McVeigh, or the coldcalling securities salesmen, there are some boys worth beating up."

MY POINT:
They broke the law, they killed people.  The justice system provided punishment.

YOU WROTE:
"instead of just snuffing them."

MY POINT:
Many of the Mexican workers die coming here through the desert.  I do not enjoy that fact.  But to encourage them to come illegally only promotes the activities of coyotes and others who "assist" their illegal border crossing.  If they come legally, it would be better, could be watched easier and perhaps a few lives would be saved.  You have a problem with that...

But you will probably say that I strayed from the point.... even though I took your points of misrepresentation one by one.  Mr. Spock you are not, more a stange version of "Dixie Lee Rae"

-- Modified on 4/3/2006 10:41:32 AM

that registry is precribed under sec. 249, and requires continuous residence since or before 1/1/72, and is therefore not possible for anybody who has not been here 30+ years, but somehow also ignored the IRCA.

So, since this either is, or is not all that hard, why don't you do us all a favor, and go out, and identify these illegals, and help them either become legal or get the hell out?

Or, is this just something you enjoy being excited about?

There are 2 issues:  the 1st is policy, which depends on interpretation of facts.  Facts here are unclear, and it's also unclear how any set of facts would be intepreted.

The 2nd issue here is the immigration code, and what changes would get us to a more desireable result - whatever result we desire, which depnds on (1) above.

I realize you believe you have "been thru the immigration process" and that makes you knowledgeable.  The same logic would qualify every felon an expert on criminal procedure.

I suspect I may have more familiarity with this than you, but that doesn't matter.  What matters is that given the limits of this board, we need to be able to explain ourselves.

As a general rule, most Mexicans cannot be legalized under the current immigration code.  Nevertheless, they fit into the US economy, to the point that many business leaders feel an enforcement bill would depress the economy.  My suspicion is that it's not so much what they are paid, as the fact that they can be relied on or replaced.  The fact is that every economy must be able to discard parts that do not work, and add parts that do.

Very few Mexicans a real threat.   The "registration" that you insist on - apart from being your misunderstanding of the law - seems to be something like, what, list who and where they are - for what purpose?  So you can deport them?  Is this the most efficient way to do this? And this what, like a building code?  Do you get this excited about building code violations?  Do you run down speeders on the freeway?  

My suggestion is that you learn more about the process before you invest so much emotion in it.

I agree with you because in reality there are questions about who the workers are, how many there are and the correct legal status of these people.  What would be wrong with finding that out through registration?  If, as you hint, you are a beaurocrat, then I guess that explains why no one knows...  what!? kinda like the beaurocrats at the IRS...  you can ask a question, they can give an answer, but it is not binding.  Curiously, the process is complicated, but knowing who is crossing our borders, their nationality and their intent !  not a problem.  or at least I would hope not.

Asking that they can provide 125% of the minimum poverty level (~$22,500 per annum) is also not a bad thing or would you rather go back to slavery?  Me, I would rather see us lift folks up, not beat them down.  Assimilation is better than what exists right now.

With respect to building code violations - yes, I do get excited - especially when people get harmed.... but before we stop there, I especially get excited about the drug approval process and that we have safe and effective drugs on the market.... so yea, I am familiar with regulating authorities...... and I do promote abiding by the law.... don't you!?  

Speeders? you bet, I drive 30 or so miles to work, on a very winding and narrow road - with lots of trucks that drive too fast and very dangerously.  I see one that violates the law, I do call it in to the trucking company so they can either discipline the driver or get him off the road before he kills someone.  So yea, call me a fuddy duddy.... that is ok.... because I have seen people die on that road - in front of me!

While I agree that individually very few Mexicans are a threat, my concern is that a few 10s of millions may really represent a serious change in the political and economic structure of our country, to say nothing of a drain on our already overtaxed infrastructure.  what is so hard to understand?


YOU SAID:
"you believe you have "been thru the immigration process""

REALITY:
I have been through it.  What struck me about it is that an MD, Board certified in two contries and quoted in the Wall Street Journal has a harder time getting into the US.... than Jose, the strawberry picker.  Yea, tell me about it.

but you, with no experience (or competence to testify) think that Jose the campesino has a much easier time of it...

Why do you think that?  Does it occur to you that maybe Jose has a much harder time, you simply don't know anything about Jose's problems?

What you mean is, not that YOU have been thtough the immigration process, but that your MD wife was, and you listened to her kvetch about it.  Having known a few women MDs, and a few campesinos, I must say I generally expect about 100X the complaint level from the former, as the latter, in a given situation...

I have tried to point out to you that law is a matter of priorities and perspective.  Not every violation warrants a death penalty, and there are cures worse than the disease.  This seems to be something you do not understand.

it doesn't exist in the way you speak of, and this is an issue that has knocked about the government for about a century.  It could be that some of these people know more about this than you, I don't know.

"Registry" is a specific remedy set out in INA 249, as discussed.

Obviously, you knew all of this, right?

POINT BY POINT....
YOU SAID:
"but you, with no experience (or competence to testify) think that Jose the campesino has a much easier time of it..."
MY RESPONSE:
While I did not go to law school, that does not mean that I have had no experience... I did, as we did not hire a lawyer, rather we processed our own petitions ourselves.  I did not state that Jose has an easier time with the law, he simply breaks the law by not registering.

YOU POST:
"Why do you think that?  Does it occur to you that maybe Jose has a much harder time, you simply don't know anything about Jose's problems?"

MY RESPONSE:
Jose ignores the system, therefore he has an easier time from a legal perspective.

YOU POST:
"What you mean is, not that YOU have been thtough the immigration process, but that your MD wife was, and you listened to her kvetch about it.  Having known a few women MDs, and a few campesinos, I must say I generally expect about 100X the complaint level from the former, as the latter, in a given situation..."

MY RESPONSE:
No, I have been through it, from filing petitions in her country, to actually going to the offices and testifying to the immigration officers.... we went through hoops and by so doing learned a lot. and while I will gripe to the day that I die about her, my ex did not complain about the process - she is now a citizen.  With respect to my ex, we met in Mexico.  Now - you figure it out.  With respect to the complaint level, I could comment, with my background - but won't.  

YOU POST:
"I have tried to point out to you that law is a matter of priorities and perspective.  Not every violation warrants a death penalty, and there are cures worse than the disease.  This seems to be something you do not understand."

MY RESPONSE:
Where in ALL of any of my posts have I ever called for a death penalty - for anything?  PLEASE stop misquoting me.  If you are as intelligent as you offer, then you certainly can win an argument without resorting to misquoting your opponent, can't you?  With respect to the law being a matter of priorities and perspective....  well, first, all that is needed is - illegal entry - deportation to country of origin - happens in most countries - including Mexico - with little fanfare and wringing of hands.  And, second, this sounds a little like situational ethics.... where are your quotes with respect to the law not having anything to say about illegal entry?  


In sum, what you have said is that 1) anyone can come here anytime they want with no visa, no documentation of any type, 2) our laws only apply to foreign MDs 3) situational ethics and law enforcement is determined by you.  That about sum it up!?   Hope I got it right.

The guy in Houston who flew the Mexican flag below the American flag didn't do it to control his students. He just did it to show support for the Mexican students. There were no student discipline problems reported in that story.


The Colorado story about the guy banning American flags was the one with discipline problems. He banned the American flag because students were using the American flags to harass other students. There was no mention of Mexican flags being flown in that story at all.

as he ordered it from the Mexican generic pharma mail order house....lol!!! hee hee!!!

Yes, there are 2 stories, but waren't me who mixed them 1st - I'm merely trying to respond

although, of course, you could be confused about that too...

But we're beginning to see where you're coming from here - anything Mexican makes you soil your drawers.

There's plenty of Mexican practices to detest, though I'm not sure how innocent or almighty Americans should be playing - but IMHO that does not infer that it's wise policy to mistreat or even malign the hired help, or their relatives either.   Nor do I see a reason to fear the hired help - if they go away, we will do as we did before.

If you were to ask me - and you didn't - I would think it would be smart to engage the Mexican leadership, and encourage those who saw profit in cleaning their pathetic country up, and lean pretty heavily on assholes like the mayor of TJ; because until their politics are cleaned up, there is little prospect of keeping them down on the farm, away from the bright lights of LA...

Fox has all the usual problems of leading his country, but he has been an improvement if for no reason other than to break the PRI lock on power.

these kids were apparently doing, namely taunting kids of other ethnicities and wagging the flags in their faces, then I'll dismiss your calls for respect for the flag as BS. If that is the way that you honored our flag and fallen heroes I would then have to beg you, in the name of decency, to honor it no more. I also do not take seriously anyone who gets the vapors over some story that lacks any detail or context. Try not to let your buttons get pushed so easily next time.

if you can't find a freaking link...

garden variety crybaby.

Sure, ignoring the law - whatever the reason - is the easy way to go.  Ask anybody in jail, they'll tell you how easy it is.

a well known illogical source.  

Now we don't know if you're a Freeper, but we do know that you're quoting an organization of professional panickers and hypesters.

Sheesh.  Yes, I'm clueless to have trusted you.

Flag Waving Banned at Colorado School

Sat Apr 1, 8:41 AM ET

LONGMONT, Colo. - Dozens of high school students protested a temporary school policy forbidding students from displaying the U.S. flag — as well as flags from other countries — amid racial tensions following immigration rallies.
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Skyline High School Principal Tom Stumpf said American flags were brazenly waved in the faces of Hispanic students and in one case a Mexican flag was thrown into the face of another student.

"When it involves the American flag and its abuse in vilifying other people, we simply will not tolerate it," Stumpf said. "They were using the symbol derisively as misguided patriotism."

Students were warned about the policy Friday and several were suspended, although Stumpf would not provide details. Then, about 100 students protested during lunch time.

Student Dustin Carlson told Denver station KCNC-TV that he was suspended for two days.

"I'm getting suspended for it and personally I think that's uncalled for," he said. "If this country means freedom, then why can't we fly our own flag? It's ridiculous."

Thousands of high school students Friday in California, Texas, Nevada and other states protested the tough immigration laws proposed in the House. Some waved Mexican flags and carried signs saying "We are not criminals."

On Monday, about 150 high school students, including some from Skyline, protested in Longmont.

"People are taking it to a whole other level," said Laura Avitia. "I don't think they know why we were protesting."

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Protestors hold a Mexican flag over the car window of a car stuck in traffic during a march through downtown San Diego Friday, March 31, 2006, held to voice their opposition to congressional bill HR 4437, a bill designed to strengthen the ability of the government to enforce immigration law in the United States. (AP Photo/Denis Poroy)

YOUR POST:
"But we're beginning to see where you're coming from here - anything Mexican makes you soil your drawers."
MY RESPONSE:
Not true, I have consistantly stated in a number of the above posts, "break the law, pay the price"  I stated that in reference to building code violations, drug approval process, and even reckless driving.  The Mexican citizenry chose to break our law by undocumented crossing of the border.  Simple - get over it.

YOUR POST:
There's plenty of Mexican practices to detest, though I'm not sure how innocent or almighty Americans should be playing - but IMHO that does not infer that it's wise policy to mistreat or even malign the hired help, or their relatives either.   Nor do I see a reason to fear the hired help - if they go away, we will do as we did before.

MY RESPONSE:
I neither fear, despies nor mistreat those from other countries who come here legally - for whatever legal reason.  Just took our au pair to her consolate to get her paperwork ready for her return to her native country (SA).  All done legally through proper chanels.  In point of fact, I have repeatedly stated that legal immigrants would push the wage up, rather than keeping it low - thus improving the lot of migrant workers.  You sir, would keep them a slave wages, ensuring a continued source of low wage menial labor.

YOUR POST:
If you were to ask me - and you didn't - I would think it would be smart to engage the Mexican leadership, and encourage those who saw profit in cleaning their pathetic country up, and lean pretty heavily on assholes like the mayor of TJ; because until their politics are cleaned up, there is little prospect of keeping them down on the farm, away from the bright lights of LA...

MY RESPONSE:
NOTHING WILL CHANGE - if you keep the status quo, I wish to change the status quo - by enforcement of the law.

YOUR POST:
Fox has all the usual problems of leading his country, but he has been an improvement if for no reason other than to break the PRI lock on power.

MY RESPONSE:
Why should Fox change?  Bush has neither the guts nor the will to tell him to cease, as a national policy, the widespread promotion of undocumented migrant workers.  In fact, if the scenario that I have laid out is true, Fox would have every reason to promote the northern nomadic migration more undocumented workers.
Excelent recipe for a takeover of another country, have your poorest go there for menial jobs, pay them little, don't educate them in their country, keep them from learning the language of the country you invade and wait for unrest.... HELP ME HERE, what do you not get.  Fox has publically stated this policy!!!!!  

Break the PRI lock on power, are replaced it with what?  Something better? how.

Solutions to problems are often hard to plan and implement.  The easy course is to not view what will happen in the future, and then stand in wonder at bad things happening.  Enforcement of the law will not be easy, especially since things have gotten so out of hand - we do not even have an accuarate head count of the number of undocumented immigrants in this country.  Sovereignty is just that,  the freedom from external control : AUTONOMY.  By the mere presence of such a large proportion of the  population of another country occupying our territory, we are "de facto" ceding control of our country.  What is so hard to see about that?  And in the end game, "de facto" will win over "de jure."

Oh, Definition of Mi - grant

the cry of an assistant professor submitting proposals to the NIH! lol I still got it!

-- Modified on 4/3/2006 5:06:29 PM

you could at least find the spell-checker.

You might find another source than the Freepers if you want to convince us that you're not just obsessive-compulsive about little brown folks.  That they are walking point for the Mexican army is laughable.

But then, I'm not terrified of the nanny, and I don't mistake law and paperwork, and I've seen enough of the Mexican army to know that the latter-day Minutemen are about their class...of course, YMMV.

the one you chose was the Freepers, and you cite no other.

I think we should know the whole truth.  That you chose the Freepers tells us clearly where you get your news.

I realize media hype is everywhere.  50 years from now, words will probably be meaningless, and you're damn straight, it's all the fault of the messicans, because they don't speak Ingles.

We need some more respect.  We've knocked over Afghanistan and Iraq, how the hell could we ignore contiguous countries?   We should be able to get the Canadians to apologize and let us in (unless they already have too many of them argumentative Indians) but why would we invade Mexico?  What is there that we could possibly want?  Oh, yes, firing range.  Respect.  That's what we need, so let's invade somebody else...

Maybe we could get some respect arresting jaywalkers in LA, and a whole lot less trouble.  If you want a vacation in Acapulco, the army is not the way to go - not that I'd expect you to sign up, or anything...

You need to open your eyes - the Irish flag does get flown on St Paddys day, and in fact hangs from plenty of establishments - is that small enough to get you started on the endless slide to hopeless decline?  If it isn't, then how about schools teaching foreign languages?  Do you know that high schools and colleges teach German, French AND SPanish too?  Why, they are turning our children into Nazis, bootlicking Frogs AND lazy Messicans too!!  Look 50 years into the future, and imagine what little bastards our grandchildren will be!!!

administrators broke up the fighting...that's closer, isn't it?  And the handy little thing about your friends dying, what about you?  Did you ever sign up, or just walk your friends to the recruiter?