Jun 19, 6:00 PM EDT

Sources: Enron's Lay May Soon Be Indicted
============================================
By KRISTEN HAYS
AP Business Writer

HOUSTON (AP) -- Kenneth Lay, Enron Corp.'s founder and former chairman, could be indicted on charges stemming from its 2001 collapse by the end of June, sources close to the case told The Associated Press on Saturday.

Two sources who spoke on condition of anonymity said federal prosecutors are aggressively pursuing Lay, and witnesses with information about him have recently testified before a special grand jury probing Enron's December 2001 collapse.

Barring any delays, federal prosecutors aim to ask the grand jury for an indictment before the Fourth of July, the sources said. The Houston Chronicle first reported the possible indictment in Saturday's editions, citing unidentified lawyers close to the case.

It was unclear what kinds of charges would be filed against Lay, a friend and contributor to President Bush. The sources said any indictment would include conspiracy charges for allegedly participating in hiding Enron's true financial condition before the energy trader collapsed into bankruptcy.

Former Enron CEO Jeffrey Skilling and top accountant Richard Causey are awaiting trial on charges of conspiracy, fraud and insider trading.

Lay's attorney, Michael Ramsey, said Saturday that he would ask to meet with the Justice Department's Enron Task Force in the coming week. "I feel very confident that Ken Lay did not commit a crime," Ramsey said.

Bryan Sierra, a spokesman for the Justice Department, declined to comment Saturday on anything pending before the grand jury.

The sources said prosecutors likely are focusing on Lay's actions and statements when he resumed as CEO upon Skilling's abrupt resignation in mid-August 2001.

Days after Skilling's resignation, Lay met privately with Sherron Watkins, then an executive on Enron finance chief Andrew Fastow's staff, who had sent him a lengthy memo warning of impending doom from Fastow's schemes.

Ramsey said on Saturday that Lay took over as CEO "with one purpose - to cure any problems that might exist, and to bring the morale of the company back up to where it should be."

Speculation about possible criminal charges against Lay grew more intense after former Fastow pleaded guilty in January to two counts of conspiracy and became the most highly placed former Enron executive to become a cooperating witness for the government.

Fastow admitted to scheming to manipulate Enron's books by hiding debt and inflating profits while enriching himself on the side.

Fastow's subsequent cooperation with prosecutors led to the indictments of Skilling and Causey, prosecutors have revealed in court filings.

Ramsey said Saturday that Lay "had no idea that Andy Fastow was doing what he has now admitted he was doing."

Another potential witness in the investigation could be Paula Rieker, the company's former No. 2 executive for investor relations. She replaced Skilling's then-girlfriend Rebecca Carter as the board's corporate secretary in September 2001 and answered directly to Lay and former Enron general counsel Jim Derrick.

She pleaded guilty May 19 to one count of insider trading and is cooperating with prosecutors. She left Enron May 5, when her name surfaced as a target in the Justice Department's investigation.

Lay resigned as CEO in January 2002 and stepped down as chairman the next month. He has remained publicly silent since Enron's collapse, except for expressing "profound sadness" for the scandal before invoking the Fifth Amendment before Congress in February 2002.

Enron's accounting scandal and collapse into bankruptcy was the first in a series of corporate scandals. Thousands of workers lost their jobs and stock fell from a high of $90 in August 2000 to just pennies.

Jun 17, 8:30 PM EDT

Calif. Sues Enron for Price Manipulation
==================================================
By ALEX VEIGA
AP Business Writer

SANTA MONICA, Calif. (AP) -- California Attorney General Bill Lockyer filed suit Thursday against Enron Corp. and several subsidiaries for allegedly manipulating market prices during the state's 2000-01 energy crisis and costing Californians billions of dollars.

The suit, filed in Alameda County Superior Court, seeks restitution and unspecified damages from the Houston-based energy giant whose trading practices are under investigation by the Justice Department.

Three former Enron traders have been charged with wire fraud involving price manipulation in California. Two have pleaded guilty and a third awaits trial in October.

"The evidence, we think, is very, very compelling that California rate payers should be entitled to well in excess of a billion dollars - probably closer to 2 billion dollars - in profits that Enron took that were illegal," Lockyer told reporters at a news conference in Santa Monica.

A message seeking comment left with an Enron spokeswoman was not immediately returned.

The lawsuit comes amid a series of developments in the case of Enron, the once high-flying energy company that declared bankruptcy in 2001 amid revelations of hidden debt and inflated profits.

Profanity-laced tape recordings released earlier this month revealed Enron traders openly gloating about manipulating California's power market and boasting they would bring the state to its knees.

In excerpts of the calls, some of which Lockyer played Thursday, the traders bragged about ripping off California "to the tune of" a million dollars a day and of stealing money from "Grandma Millie."

"Grandma Millie is California. I am her lawyer and she seeks justice," Lockyer declared.

The filing comes amid the attorney general's ongoing battle with the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission to collect as much as $9 billion in refunds from energy wholesalers that officials say the state is owed to cover overcharges it paid during the energy crisis. FERC has estimated the overcharges at around $3 billion and has collected less than $100 million to date.

"If FERC had been aggressive from the beginning we wouldn't have to file these lawsuits" against Enron and other companies, Lockyer said.

The attorney general is also attempting to reverse a decision by FERC last month requiring that California refund Enron and other energy companies nearly $270 million in overcharges from power the state sold during the energy crisis.

The sales took place after the state stepped in to buy power on behalf of three nearly bankrupt California utilities to ensure an adequate supply.

The lawsuit filed Thursday contends that between 1998 and 2001 Enron violated California's commodities and unfair competition laws by engaging in "a number of unlawful, unfair, fraudulent and manipulative trading schemes" to artificially boost energy prices and the company's profits.

Each violation of the state's unfair competition law is punishable by a fine of up to $2,500, while breaches of the state's commodities law can be punishable by up to $25,000 per incident.

The suit, the first filed against Enron by the state, accuses the company of deliberately causing congestion along power transmission lines, then reaping extra revenue for taking action to relieve the bogus congestion. The company also allegedly misrepresented out-of-market energy sales so it could sell power back to the state at a higher price.

"While the state reeled from the combined impact of sky-high power prices, supply shortages and rolling blackouts, the Enron defendants enjoyed massive, unprecedented profits and extracted millions of dollars in ill-gotten gains from utilities and their customers through a variety of fraudulent schemes," according to the 20-page complaint.

By bringing the case to state court, Lockyer said he is hopeful California can get its hands on some of Enron's assets before the company's plans to emerge from bankruptcy reorganization are completed.

"I want to get Enron and its executives before a California jury ... and let them make judgments," he said.

---

On the Net:

California attorney general: http://www.ag.ca.gov

I find it interesting that the Governator was brought in on a mandate that was largely predicated on the budget deficit that Governor Davis accumulated.

Now if the courts reveal the obvious, we'll soon find out that the sum of California's deficit is closely equal to what the energy thieves ripped from the Californian people with Shrub's tacet approval. So in other words, although Davis was no dynamo, he was probably running the state at the same level of incompetence as anyone else. Another stolen election by the neocons, as if any of you would be surprised....

Now that's using you're noggin!

It couldn't have been Davis' refusal to let CA power providers  operate in a prudent manner!  Or his insane budget spending?

Just for your clarification mistershow, the Enron rip off was already paid with the higher power bills, not borrowed against CAs future.

Davis was a pathetic leader and the blame should fall on the people of CA for relecting him (note:  this isn't in defense of Enron), he was horrible in his first term too!

I heard that on the radio somewhere, forget just where and when, though recently on some late night AM talk radio station, sorry I don't have a link.
But it was like 9 of the 18 billion dollars.

When you add in the fact that it was Pete Wilson's fault for deregulating the power companies in the first place, it made Davis a sitting duck to the Republican attack. Not that Davis really ever helped his own case, but it wasn't totally his fault that California was in the shape it was, is my point.

So you're telling me that if you pay your utility bill this week at a higher rate then it doesn't affect paying your mortgage in the following week?

And talk about borrowing against the future, isn't that the typical Repub scam to balance the tax cut inequities? Didn't Governator just propose exactly that within weeks of entering office? Isn't Shrub in the process of that right now?

Most stuff Davis was accused of is exactly the stuff that Shrub is getting a pass on because of the war on terrorism, except now his numbers are dropping as we see more evidence of his special brand of incompetence. As stated earlier, Davis was no worse and no more incompetent then Governator will prove to be. If you're proposing that Arnold wouldn't have been cheated by Enron since that was CLEARLY the mandate that propelled this recall into motion, then you're proffering an argument that is purely academic and moot. But don't argue that he was railroaded out because of anything BUT energy issues. Unbalanced budgets just aren't sexy enough to the general populace although they should be.

Davis was kicked out of office for incompetence, putting the state into insolvency and selling influence for contributions, end of story.

Although I didn't vote for the Bond issue and think it was ill advised, it was to cover the immense debt for the current budget Arnold inherited (mid-term) from Gray Davis and his democratic legislature.

Arnold is attempting to work with a Assembly and Senate that are held by a huge majority of liberal, socialists democrats who are doing their level best to block any fiscal changes and cutbacks (other than raise taxes).  

Arnold took the bond issue to the people and they backed him in a wider margin than they voted for him in the first place.  Just a reminder, the State of California is a strong bastion of Democratic Voters!  The alternative was to raise taxes for all Californian's which the public did not want, and would have been just another blow to business who are still leaving the state in droves!  

Like Ronald Reagan once said, "Government does not tax to get the money it needs; government always finds a need for the money it gets."  And the government in California had been 100% Democrat Controlled!

Arnold has improved the Workers Comp situation (still very fucked up) has now trumped Davis and received huge money for the state (not his reelection campaign like Davis and Bustamytaxes) from the Indian Gaming Tribes and most importantly is spending his time governing the State of California rather than lining his pockets with campaign contributions.

Arnold will have the budget completed in record time and will get many of his cost cutting measures, primarily because WE AINT GOT NO MO MONEY!

Compared to Davis, Arnold is a fucking genius!  And yes, I think that Arnold or Simon would have allowed the utilities to lock in prices when they were at a much lower level instead of what Gray Davis did in locking us into the peak prices!  Any moron knows that (even most democrats).

However, none of your retort addressed the issue that the Enron debacle had nothing to do with the state financial crisis!  And yes I can tell you that even with higher utility bills, my mortgage stayed the same, and I made the payment without angst or whining!  My business would be classified as manufacturing, we are huge energy users and we were hammered by the astronomical energy increases.  It hurt our sales, profits and cost several people their jobs due to layoffs and yes, I lay those jobs at the feet of Gray Davis, et. al.!

Court: FERC overreached in trying to replace California energy board
----------------------------
By Erica Werner
ASSOCIATED PRESS
10:15 a.m. June 22, 2004

WASHINGTON – A federal appeals court, siding with former Gov. Gray Davis in a political fight, strongly rebuked federal energy regulators for their attempt to replace the board that manages California's electricity grid.  

The move by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission in 2002 was an "unprecedented invasion of internal corporate governance," the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit ruled Tuesday.

The decision overturns FERC's order that the California Independent System Operator disband and create a new governing structure. FERC contended the ISO was not independent because California's governor appointed all its members.

The move infuriated Davis, a Democrat who was governor at the time, and his appointees on the ISO never complied with the order, voting instead to ignore it.

The stinging, 16-page ruling vindicates Davis' position. He subsequently was ousted in a recall election.

"FERC has done nothing less than order a public utility subject to its regulation to replace its governing board," the court said.

"While the petitioners offer several grounds for setting aside that action, chief among those grounds is the argument by petitioners that FERC simply has no authority to do such a thing. ... We agree with petitioners on that basis."

The ruling is not directly related to the ongoing dispute before FERC and in federal court in California over the $9 billion in refunds the state contends it is owed from energy sellers who overcharged during an energy crisis there. But it could bolster arguments by California officials that FERC has acted improperly in its response to that crisis in 2000-2001.

California suffered spiking wholesale prices and six days of blackouts during the crisis. Subsequent investigations by FERC and California officials found that energy sellers manipulated the market and took advantage of the state's flawed deregulation scheme.

On the Net:
------------
The decision is at www.cadc.uscourts.gov/opinions/opinions.asp

Going to have to clarify your "clarification", bribite.

Only a small portion of the higher power costs charged by Enron (and other Texas energy wholesalers) through their illicit actions have been paid by California "rate" payers in their utility bills. The bulk of these higher costs (~$12 billion in energy "bonds") were floated by the State of California to the general public, and California "taxpayers" will be paying off these bonds for sometime to come.

- Davis was kicked out of office for incompetence, putting the state into insolvency and selling influence for contributions, end of story.

Substitute "Bush" for Davis when you say that.

Incompetence = war on terrorism

Contributions = Haliburton, Enron

Insolvency = So when the "dotcom" bubble burst it makes contextual sense for a federal deficit but not in California where it was a huge part of the state industrial engine? Interesting quibbling here.

- Compared to Davis, Arnold is a fucking genius!  And yes, I think that Arnold or Simon would have allowed the utilities to lock in prices when they were at a much lower level instead of what Gray Davis did in locking us into the peak prices!  Any moron knows that (even most democrats).

Easy argument to make when it's academic and moot. Perhaps we can ponder whether Clinton is a better politician then Kubla Khan?

- However, none of your retort addressed the issue that the Enron debacle had nothing to do with the state financial crisis!  

Does floating a bond to pay for the price increase count as "state debt" to you? Typical neocon politics, balnce the budget against the future and get out of town before the bill comes due.

- And yes I can tell you that even with higher utility bills, my mortgage stayed the same, and I made the payment without angst or whining!  My business would be classified as manufacturing, we are huge energy users and we were hammered by the astronomical energy increases.  

Use your imagination on this one. I wasn't bitching about my ability to pay my mortgage, a case hard pressed to make with the majority of us knuckleheads that frequents this board given our ability to have discretionary income for this hobby. I was making an analogy. Mortgage = state deficit. My comment was to say the bond is on the state's books. Again, does that count as debt to you?

- It hurt our sales, profits and cost several people their jobs due to layoffs and yes, I lay those jobs at the feet of Gray Davis, et. al.!

Maybe you're just caught in a business downturn because of your own incompetence and inability to meet the future. After all, isn't that the same argument you make when you address people looking for help from government? If the state government is such an impediment to your business well-being why not move to Nevada or Montana? You neocons do nothing but bitch and whine and then call anybody that disagrees with you exactly that. Meantime, you hang here in this state and make excuses for your lack of understanding by whining about the state government as you clog the courts with civil lawsuits, the majority of those business vs. business. Talk about the height of hypocrisy!

Incompetence in the war on Terrorism, I simply don't agree.  Since 9/11 no terrorist attacks have been successful on American soil, here or abroad.  Bush said and anybody with modicum of common sense would be able to see that this will be a long drawn out war.  It's not a movie with a two hour plot, it will probably take decades.  You would be wise to remember that we didn't start it!

Even Assembly Democrats and Senators agreed that Davis was a imbecile in regards to the energy crisis.  His policy of cowering to ecology groups resulted in underdevelopment of power generating plants and locking us into all time high prices was moronic.  It's historical fact, not  an academic argument.

Arnold was faced with floating a bond or loosing California's bond rating which would have cost Californian's much more in interest.   If the democrats in the legislature will get serious about the budget cuts needed, the debt service will be painless.  Now the typical neo-socialist response is to raise taxes, drive out more business and put more people on the dole, which becomes a self fulfilling prophecy of economic doom, and California is living that prophecy.

Mortgage = State Debt.  See paragraph above.

Make no mistake about it, I have made many business blunders, never asked anybody to bail me out though!  I have never filed a lawsuit, personal or business related, although I have defended myself in one (only one is thirty years as a business owner, and I won).  But what is most pertinent to our conversation is moving to "Nevada or Montana", although both of those states offer some very fine business incentives, I decided to move almost all of our production to Arizona over a year ago, and those jobs too were lost to California.  I do however still sell most of my products in this state and make the majority of my profits from California, as do most of the businesses in Nevada, Montana and Arizona!  Your neo-socialist thinking is killing California's job machine!

And just to ease your mind, don't worry about me, I'm doing very well and will continue to mainly because I don't look to government to wipe my ass!

You did give me a good hoot, attempting to defend Gray Davis!  Now that's slapstick!

- Incompetence in the war on Terrorism, I simply don't agree.  Since 9/11 no terrorist attacks have been successful on American soil, here or abroad.  

We are aiming at one justified target and one that had NO connections to the original attack a certain case for incompetence with the commander in chief. We have a president driven by personal agenda that is out of control, making bald faced lies to the American people that have larger ramifications then an illicit sexual liaison and because he is "your guy" you defend him like a lock step dittohead clone. By the way, according to your gauge Davis has a better record for terrorist attacks. Does he get credit for that as well?

- Bush said and anybody with modicum of common sense would be able to see that this will be a long drawn out war.

Where were you when there were predictions of "shock and awe", the desire for change within the Iraqi people and all of the other lies including nuclear WMD made at the ready to attack America? Bush and his people said so many things that it's obvious they were setting up to bolster their duplicity long before they would be discovered. Like all conmen, they issued conflicting statements so they couldn't be pinned down. For every statement of lengthy duration regarding this war, they made two claims that it would be an easy and simple operation, from discovering WMD on down the line.


- Even Assembly Democrats and Senators agreed that Davis was a imbecile in regards to the energy crisis.  His policy of cowering to ecology groups resulted in underdevelopment of power generating plants and locking us into all time high prices was moronic.  It's historical fact, not  an academic argument.

You forego the obvious which MOST Republicans are hard pressed to deny. The energy companies in Texas were out to cheat California and with the White House turning a blind eye, they got away with it. Now the courts are pulling the curtains back. Typical reframing of the facts by neocon thinking, ignoring the obvious and clinging to one minor, misleading point.

- If the democrats in the legislature will get serious about the budget cuts needed, the debt service will be painless.  Now the typical neo-socialist response is to raise taxes, drive out more business and put more people on the dole, which becomes a self fulfilling prophecy of economic doom, and California is living that prophecy.

The typical response for a Repub politician is to selectively cut certain programs that have no significance such as Head Start (a miniscule amount on the books) while giving huge hand-outs to special interests. Last time I looked a Republican controlled Congress, Senate and White house have delivered the most bloated budget in history. As far as California's economic doom, we are still the biggest money state in the nation so I guess your gloom and doom predictions can be piled on all of the same predictions in the 70's and 80's.

- But what is most pertinent to our conversation is moving to "Nevada or Montana", although both of those states offer some very fine business incentives, I decided to move almost all of our production to Arizona over a year ago, and those jobs too were lost to California.  I do however still sell most of my products in this state and make the majority of my profits from California, as do most of the businesses in Nevada, Montana and Arizona!  Your neo-socialist thinking is killing California's job machine!

The problem with appeasing the type that will move their business for a few extra pennies is that they know no loyalty to begin with. Business bitches, whines and moans because the reality is it wants a free ride. I suggest you take your business to Mexico where it's the cheapest of all. A state that expects to have its workers compensated fairly within livable wage can never compete with a state or country that just refuses to care for the workers or environment. Of course, you don't care about regulations because you most likely will not have to deal directly or indirectly with the problems "business at all costs" brings. You don't care that the forests get chopped, that the water and air is polluted or that people work and still don't survive. Nothing makes your type happy so take your whiny bitchin' ass somewhere else. True Americans hate your type.


- And just to ease your mind, don't worry about me, I'm doing very well and will continue to mainly because I don't look to government to wipe my ass!

You're the one griping about your bottom line being down. Again incompetence and an inability to meet the future, starting with your politically narrow mindedness....As for wiping your ass, you would wipe your ass at the misfortune of others through your business practice so you will get what you deserve when your business dries up thanks to the sorry state of the nation at the hands of someone that will only use you in the end.

- You did give me a good hoot, attempting to defend Gray Davis!  Now that's slapstick!

You make me laugh because you would defend a simpleton that is beholden to nothing except his immediate friends. And I know you're not laughing because you have no sense of humor that doesn't come at the expense of someone else. I hope one day you can have a good laugh that isn't about someone else's pain.


-- Modified on 6/24/2004 9:50:47 AM

-- Modified on 6/24/2004 10:36:15 AM

"We are aiming at one justified target and one that had NO connections to the original attack a certain case for incompetence with the commander in chief. We have a president driven by personal agenda that is out of control, making bald faced lies to the American people that have larger ramifications then an illicit sexual liaison and because he is "your guy" you defend him like a lock step dittohead clone. By the way, according to your gauge Davis has a better record for terrorist attacks. Does he get credit for that as well?"

Lots of words, nothing responding to our relative safety since 9/11!  Do you remember when Davis received a heads up from the FBI about potential terrorist activity in Califonria?  He went on TV with his hair on fire and closed all the major bridges in the State!  Of course he calmed down a day later when what he was told was released to the press.  Even when he attempted to lead, he was a dolt!

"Where were you when there were predictions of "shock and awe", the desire for change within the Iraqi people and all of the other lies including nuclear WMD made at the ready to attack America? Bush and his people said so many things that it's obvious they were setting up to bolster their duplicity long before they would be discovered. Like all conmen, they issued conflicting statements so they couldn't be pinned down. For every statement of lengthy duration regarding this war, they made two claims that it would be an easy and simple operation, from discovering WMD on down the line."

I'm not surprised that you missed the fact that Saddam's military was defeated in record time.  Now listen carefully, those causing trouble in Iraq now are for the most part not Iraqis, they are al qaeda.  And where are they doing it?  St. Louis, Miami, San Diego?  In his speech after 9/11 Bush called us to arms against TERRORISTS and TERRORISM, not just bin laden, to forget that in order to forward your agenda is dishonest.

"You forego the obvious which MOST Republicans are hard pressed to deny. The energy companies in Texas were out to cheat California and with the White House turning a blind eye, they got away with it. Now the courts are pulling the curtains back. Typical reframing of the facts by neocon thinking, ignoring the obvious and clinging to one minor, misleading point."

You forego that all of the Utility Companies in the state were begging for approval to lock in prices at all time low rates which would have provided Californian's with uninterupted, moderately priced energy for the longterm!  Davis refused them, time and again!  His refusal set up the state for price gouging, which may or may not have been illegal, we will have to see (Lockyer might just loose this lawsuit too!).

"The typical response for a Repub politician is to selectively cut certain programs that have no significance such as Head Start (a miniscule amount on the books) while giving huge hand-outs to special interests. Last time I looked a Republican controlled Congress, Senate and White house have delivered the most bloated budget in history. As far as California's economic doom, we are still the biggest money state in the nation so I guess your gloom and doom predictions can be piled on all of the same predictions in the 70's and 80's."

You might remember that congress and state legislatures spend money and in the US and California, those institutions were in complete control of the democratic party!  As far as gloom and doom predictions, based on Californias own figures, the state population decreased by 750,000 in 2002 (last year figures are available and is based on including estimates of illegal immigration).  I would contend that those leaving were not on welfare, they were the people providing jobs, productive tax payers who left the give away and punitive law mentality of California!

"The problem with appeasing the type that will move their business for a few extra pennies is that they know no loyalty to begin with. Business bitches, whines and moans because the reality is it wants a free ride. I suggest you take your business to Mexico where it's the cheapest of all. A state that expects to have its workers compensated fairly within livable wage can never compete with a state or country that just refuses to care for the workers or environment. Of course, you don't care about regulations because you most likely will not have to deal directly or indirectly with the problems "business at all costs" brings. You don't care that the forests get chopped, that the water and air is polluted or that people work and still don't survive. Nothing makes your type happy so take your whiny bitchin' ass somewhere else. True Americans hate your type."

If it becomes necessary for my businesses survival that I take my jobs to Mexico, I will.  Now I suppose that to you it would be more "True American" to stay and go bankrupt!  Hey then I and everyone who works for me could also could go on the dole, until, that is all businesses are gone.  At that point you and those like you can sit around and jack each other off over how mean those business owners were!  

The main problem with the liberal mentality is that somehow you have come to beleive that if I succeed, you have lost something!  The pie is only so big, if your piece is bigger than mine, you took some of mine.  How pathetic, what a loser mentality.  The pie is as big as we make it, opportunity is everywhere, limited only by government and over taxation!

"You're the one griping about your bottom line being down. Again incompetence and an inability to meet the future, starting with your politically narrow mindedness....As for wiping your ass, you would wipe your ass at the misfortune of others through your business practice so you will get what you deserve when your business dries up thanks to the sorry state of the nation at the hands of someone that will only use you in the end.'

I wasn't griping and whining, I was attempting to enlighten you to the realities of Davis's leadership.  Lost jobs (and those unemployed don't pay any taxes).  Personally I wasn't hurt, business doesn't pay taxes, it adds them to it products prices, modernizes and eliminates labor, finds ways of increasing productivity from its labor.  Grows or dies.  I was able to relocate my production and undercut California production companies with lower prices (I know you don't see the insanity here)   I feel sorry for you that you think that government can improve that reality with taxes and stupid laws.  You are a shining example of all that is wrong with California.

You appear to be just another jaded liberal, looking for government to "help you".  It won't, it can't and everywhere it has been attempted it just brings everyone down to the lowest possible denominator.  Ask youself this, who is better off, South Koreans or North Koreans?  Vietnam or Singapore?  South Florida or Cuba?





















-- Modified on 6/25/2004 10:55:46 AM

- Lots of words, nothing responding to our relative safety since 9/11!

Relative safety? More Americans die everyday in an unnecessary occupation of a hostile country that is more unstable then ever. That's right. Ignore the Americans that die daily since it's not in your backyard. Typical Repub' pseudo patriot! I would wager that the folks fighting the occupation don't feel the world is safer by a longshot. News for you; instability breeds terrorist. Saddam was no friend but to act as if we have improved the relationship between the U.S. and the middle eastern world is complete stupidity. If you neoCONs can make claims that it was Clinton that bears the brunt of responsibility for 9/11 then why do you get a pass on shrub making the world more hostile then ever since it hasn't even been 4 years? Since nothing has happened yet, you can ignore the whirlwind we will reap from this? Typical repub tactic; make a grab for something ignoring the far reaching consequences and then get out of town before the bill gets paid only this times it will be lives.

- Do you remember when Davis received a heads up from the FBI about potential terrorist activity in California?  He went on TV with his hair on fire and closed all the major bridges in the State!  Of course he calmed down a day later when what he was told was released to the press.  Even when he attempted to lead, he was a dolt!

Yes, Davis acted immediately instead of sitting in a kindergarten wondering where Cheney was to tell him what to do. Meanwhile Cheney is unilaterally ordering to bomb every plane out of the sky and lying that the president is authorizing it, no doubt because he IS the real president at the moment. Too bad the American public elected neither.

- I'm not surprised that you missed the fact that Saddam's military was defeated in record time.  Now listen carefully, those causing trouble in Iraq now are for the most part not Iraqis, they are al qaeda.  And where are they doing it?  St. Louis, Miami, San Diego?  In his speech after 9/11 Bush called us to arms against TERRORISTS and TERRORISM, not just bin laden, to forget that in order to forward your agenda is dishonest.

Please save the honesty speech. You neocons calling out people for honesty is like asking a dog about physics. You have no understanding. My question as does most of the world's remains this: What the F**k does Iraq have to do with the terrorist link to AL Queada? You can broaden that terrorist net to link Saudi Arabia too but I don't see us bombing the stuffing out of them. Oh yeah, Bush's friends....I forgot. It's his war and his agenda. I thought for a second this was about making America safer. The large oversight regarding the inability to link the Saddam and Al Queda has made us unsafe.

- You forego that all of the Utility Companies in the state were begging for approval to lock in prices at all time low rates which would have provided Californian's with uninterupted, moderately priced energy for the longterm!  Davis refused them, time and again!  His refusal set up the state for price gouging, which may or may not have been illegal, we will have to see (Lockyer might just loose this lawsuit too!).

There was no appeasing those utility companies. They were gaming and manipulating the market from the beginning. They wanted to lock the prices in at a usurious rate and would then have magically found the means to cheaper power, thereby increasing their bottom line. Those asswipes had no love for California and were always looking to rip us off. They only needed the blind eye of one of their own to complete the crime. It has always been an issue of "creative" shortages.

- You might remember that congress and state legislatures spend money and in the US and California, those institutions were in complete control of the democratic party!  

When was the last time congress was controlled by the democrats?

- As far as gloom and doom predictions, based on California's own figures, the state population decreased by 750,000 in 2002 (last year figures are available and is based on including estimates of illegal immigration).  I would contend that those leaving were not on welfare, they were the people providing jobs, productive tax payers who left the give away and punitive law mentality of California!

Where'd you get that load of bull? Ann Coulter? Look at the ratio for employers to employees! For that to have a made a significant drop in the California population, that ratio would have to be extreme. You would contend like a typical Repub...no facts and all bluster.

- If it becomes necessary for my businesses survival that I take my jobs to Mexico, I will.  Now I suppose that to you it would be more "True American" to stay and go bankrupt!  Hey then I and everyone who works for me could also could go on the dole, until, that is all businesses are gone.  At that point you and those like you can sit around and jack each other off over how mean those business owners were!  

Many of the business that created the maquilladoro situation in Mexico were far from bankrupt. They just wanted to increase the bottom line to justify the bloated executives salaries. I hope you do move to Mexico. And leave your citizenship at the door so when you go bankrupt from incompetence, you can enjoy their health programs for the indigent. You overestimate your status and position in our economy. For every business that goes, especially here in California, two pop up. That is why this state is called the golden state. Quit blaming your business failure on government and get smart or get out.

- The main problem with the liberal mentality is that somehow you have come to beleive that if I succeed, you have lost something!  The pie is only so big, if your piece is bigger than mine, you took some of mine.  How pathetic, what a loser mentality.  The pie is as big as we make it, opportunity is everywhere, limited only by government and over taxation!

What makes you think I don't own my own business. Typical neoCON thinking. That if someone believes in a higher ideal they certainly must not run a business, pay taxes and employ people. You're not the only Inc. in this world so get over your self importance.

- I wasn't griping and whining, I was attempting to enlighten you to the realities of Davis's leadership.  

All you do is gripe and whine on this board in every post you make.

- Lost jobs (and those unemployed don't pay any taxes).  Personally I wasn't hurt, business doesn't pay taxes, it adds them to it products prices, modernizes and eliminates labor, finds ways of increasing productivity from its labor.  Grows or dies.  

Since I also own a business, this is the only thing I agree with you on.

- I was able to relocate my production and undercut California production companies with lower prices (I know you don't see the insanity here)   I feel sorry for you that you think that government can improve that reality with taxes and stupid laws.  You are a shining example of all that is wrong with California.

I didn't relocate. I re-tooled and re-trenched. I could've done what you did but in the end, I trusted the people of California more. I think everyone has a right to good air and water and I am willing to pay my taxes. Within the tax laws I will do everything that is allowed but that is where the buck stops for me. If you relocated, at the heart of what you did was undercut environmental laws that help people and compensation packages that allow more people a piece of the American pie. The very people that would fight the war you can "armchair general" are the very ones you hurt. No sweat off of your back, you're not a true patriot. You just offer lip service as long as it doesn't cost you and it's not your son or daughter getting blasted.

- You appear to be just another jaded liberal, looking for government to "help you".  

I have never been helped. I graduated from a private college (no public dollars poured in to defray the cost of that education) and am off of the map for welfare or any other assistance. You are myopic to imagine everyone that disagrees with you is after your paltry gains. It's called paranoia my friend.

- It won't, it can't and everywhere it has been attempted it just brings everyone down to the lowest possible denominator.  Ask youself this, who is better off, South Koreans or North Koreans?  Vietnam or Singapore?  South Florida or Cuba?

I don't disagree with a capitalist mentality but nothing is black and white. You can't abhor the sight of homeless people and then not give them a place to go at night. You can't create a war and then cut the combat pay to those that would fight it. You can't move your business to get lower costs and then bitch when a factory goes up spewing dust all over your property and ruining your ability to get a drink of tap water without contracting cancer thereby lowering its value. You have a view of the world that is narrow and a concept of time that involves only the here and now. You want everything and think you owe nothing. You want a cut throat mentality in regards to business? How about the cocaine trade? As ruthless as it gets for manufacturing and distributing, pure Machiavelli....Maybe that's your proposal since it's all about the benjamins to you. Just load your guns soon because in your society, you will just be another failed business AND DEAD!!!