The murdering piece of shit got what he deserved. Finally.
Had he even ONCE expressed remorse at his act, there might have been room for clemency. But he never did.
On a case by case basis, I believe sometimes people must pay the ultimate price for their crimes. Tookie Williams not only murdered in cold blood, he was the nexxus of gang violence that has escalated into the plague it has become.

He got what he deserved. Throw his remains out with the rest of the garbage. Feed his corpse to the maggots.

This is one of those things I don't have much of an opinion about.  I suppose in a close vote, the governor's reasoning makes sense to me, assuming he is guilty.  Of course, these guys never make decisions without thinking about the politics, so morality and expediency are always at odds with one-another.

But there really is a tough question in play: what do we do about people who do awful things, kill others with utter callous disregard for the hellish nightmare they create, but who then do become a new person, transformed in real and substantive ways?  

Not that this is easy to detect, but it happens. If we had executed them soon after they would not have changed, and most would agree, good riddance.  

But even if they change - their act hasn't gone away, the hellish nightmare they created for many lingers, but they are now not the same person.  Is this enough?  I tend to think so, but only slightly.  

It's the irony that gets me - if we had executed them early, I would not have grieved it as some people truly offend me.  But now they have grown and likewise are appalled by their acts.  What then?  What purpose is served by executing them?

4 people personally killed by him, as well as a founding and inspirational role in a murderous gang of roving thugs, which makes him indirectly responsible for countless other crimes.

It appears that it might have been more logical to have resolved this net negative by making him a positive example.  Since he killed 4, perhaps quartering him would be appropriate, and doing this at high noon in Arco Plaza might acheive the same exposure that he acheived with his gangbangers.  Then leave his remains on the lamposts for his friends to contemplate.

I agree, that on a case by case basis, the punishment should be made to fit the crime.  It's logical.

If we issued life sentences that actually lasted for life and we stopped protecting the worst criminals once they are in jail, someone will do a Dahmer on them eventually.  Viola problem solved, justice served.  I would be in favor of the death penalty if I could watch it on cable or enter a lottery to flip the switch.  But until then, fuck 'em.  I mean literally in the ass by a gang of men of the opposite race.  But that's just me.

DrG et al: if he had expressed remorse you would still have wanted him executed, wouldn't you?  So what's the point in throwing in comments like those?

I disagree with the death penatly.  I think it demeans us all.  That does not mean I have any sympathy for the criminals like Williams.  Far from it.

Capital punishment allows the murderer to set society's moral tone by imitating what it seeks to condemn. Personally, I don't want murderers to have that power.

If someone took one of your close family members (aprent, child, sibling) into a room, forced them to laie down on the floor, and then shot them point blank in the back-would you still feel the same way?

Or, from another case, you have a child (a 7 yr old daughter) who disappears from your home in the middle of the night. Approx. 30-45 days later, her decomposing body is found lying alongside the road. You learn that a neighbor (who you know by sight, but not truly "socially") has been accused and convicted of kidnapping your child and killing her. Furthermore, there are strong indications, but not enough evidence, that suggest your daughter was sexually molested by her abductor. Are you still against the death penalty? (David Westerfield/Danielle VanDam case in San Diego).

The death penalty isn't about anything other than retribution. There's no real deterrent value.

If the families of Willima's victims had all been of the opinion that life without parole was ok to them, then I'd say fine. But this was an act of cold blooded murder, there was intent. When he pulled that trigger, William's surrendered any shred of decency and humanity he had. He can rot in hell as far as I'm concerned.

And if a certain people were responsible for the murder of the Messiah should they also not receive retribution?

Mr. Williams wasted oxygen, so the State of California decided to relieve the stress on the environment.

...but if I may fan the flames a little.  The Death Penalty is unnecessary and is not retribution (though I agree with your environmental feelings).  The execution was quick and relatively painless.  I would prefer that he live out the rest of his life in containment with a bunch of pissed off Klansmen.  Preferably latent homo Klansmen.  I would reverse the scenario if the show were on the other foot.

running a state.

The USA is a bit more rough & tumble than some places - ie, we have a lot of different peoples from lots of different places, and some people, the likes of Tookie's bros, have to be communicated with on a rather primal level.

There are lots of arguments back and forth, and little certainty in this, as in most of life.  However, if I were a cop or neighbor of Tookie's bros, I would feel a little more secure understanding that I can look his asshole friends in the eye knowing that my state is every bit as serious as they may be, and completely willing to fight fire with fire.

And once a thug has a career like Tookie's, it's not about him anymore, it's about his neighbors.  If they want to snuff him, so be it.

Personally, I do not believe in lethal injection.  Capital punishment is a symbol and ritual, probably mostly for the victims' family and neighbors, that they need not search out the criminals to protect themselves.

As such, I would hang them in the prison yard, and allow the family of victims to be on hand, because it is most fitting for the sort of person who needs killing.  It is an expression of the will of the state to protect its citizens.

Next time there's a World War, let 'em have Europe.  It'll probably be an improvement at this point, whatever the invasion.  By the way, I'm available for Nobel Prize nomination.

good sense to do his thang in the UK, and that's the reason he's a stiff now.

Somehow though I doubt the Swiss would have nominated him for any Nobel Prize if he had done the deed in say Geneva.

...the whole problem is the name "Tookie".  Who wants to kill someone named "Tookie"?  If he had a badass name like "The Crypt Kicker" or Walter Mondale, that would be a different story.  But don't underestimate the Swiss - they gave us the Dadaist movement.  And that's pretty neat.

...I hate it when I don't get my facts straight and I click "post message".  I meant to say the Swiss gave us dadaists and fondue.  I am truely sorry if I have offend any Swissies.

The messiah got murdered!  Holy shit did I miss something?!?!?!?!?

this was before your time.

Many bad mvies have been made about this event however.  So if you're curious..

The Swiss do not run the Nobel Prize committee.  I'm pretty sure it's the  Swedes, as the Prizes are announced and awarded in Stockholm.

Perhaps you're thinking of the International Red Cross, which IS a Swiss innovation and based in that quiet and properous country.

And you've got to understand that nominating Tookie is a deliberate slap at the US, as he's African-American, criminally habituated, in state custody, and has a great line of cheap patter which warms the hearts of all liberal anti-capital punishment activists [the conservative anti-capital punishment crowd, no doubt smallish, hasn't embraced Tookie]-- every characteristic designed to scream "victim of US social and econmic inequities."  Perhaps they're right, but it doesn't get Tookie of the hook for his past misdeeds [now it's past tense and it didn't get Tookie off the hook].

You are surrendering your power to someone who neither wanted it or now has the ability to take that power.

Weak.

They cashed in their individuality with the EU & united nations.  I'll give 'em kudos for the red cross though.

"Surrendering one's will" and dancing on a grave are two different things.  This is a celebration.  Come on everybody get happy.  You are the only gloomy guss here, Miss Demeanor.

the Swiss are also responsible for women so TIGHT-ASSED that they have to import floozies, see http://www.elizabeth-carson.com/

This is a major cultural negative issue, and perhaps needs some well-placed bombs.  Sometimes I think that's what it would take to get their legs apart, sheesh.

repeatedly, and not knowing (right now, nore thinking it material) the nomination procedures off the top of my head, I simply repeated what I had heard [hangs head, shuffles feet] but ah, so what?

Yeah, I expect it's a political gesture by political eunuchs, whether Swiss, Swede or Rwandan.  So I think my response would be to send them a gift certificate for a Papal blessing, endorsed that they should go & kvetch in peace.  How do you say that in Latin?

Swedish women are worth dating - Swiss are not.  Remember -

Swedish = blonde & hot all over, they especially like us swarthy boys
Swiss = nondescript & wound tighter than their watches

who can make me laugh so uproariously - whether you, or Tookie, the 3 Stooges, or even Ahnold da Kraut.

Don't worry, be happy [accompanied by illogically large & shit-eating grin] http://www.superlaugh.com/1/behappy.htm

But logically, you are applying female emotional standards to persons of the male persuasion, with the logically messed-up result.

-- Modified on 12/14/2005 10:29:41 AM

We are born Zen, we never leave the moment, we just go with the flow.

Never send a guy to a shrink:  there is just nothing there.  He's completely transparent.  No soul, nada.   If you think you have found one with a soul, it's an ambush - he is either (a) gay, or (b) trying to get into your pants.

Kudos for their marksmanship.  And diplomacy on one occasion, when Goering allegedly asked the Swiss ambassador what they would do if the 6 million man German army invaded, and was informed that every Swiss would have to fire twice.

if he was truly rehabilitated, and the State of California was willing to act as his agent, he could have played Uncle Remus in NYPD Blue.

That gets you into any pants here.

all the babes must love it, and he probly did it to get laid, even though it's probly gangbang vernacular for "armed robber", ie, "took it".

I gotta get a better nickname, and get laid more.

it's what we do {GGGG}

-- Modified on 12/14/2005 10:18:05 AM

I'm glad they left the Germans for Allied forces to deal with.  We needed the exercise back then.

Yes, I forgot all about Swiss cheese, too.  Where would our delis be without Swiss cheese?   DO they get royalties on the bubbles, or what?

if these movies made so many hundreds of tons of paper money, then how could they be bad?

Tookie might be Yiddish, and his nickname is a dimunitive for "ass"?

"The Little Asswipe"?  That could explain a lot about killing a buncha people, do you suppose?  

Or was that before, or after?

he's the, hmm, party theme du jour.

We were gonna call it the "Tuesday Party", but "Tookie Party" is close enough.

Evrybod has to wear LAPD caps, an we'll duel with them lightsabers they carry, I mean nightstix.

that many pesos will last you a week, if you spend half on viagra.

in latin it's Pacem in Toochess (oops...terris)!

not "into" gang ass-rape, as say some leather boys could be.

Just wondering.

This question has 2 parts, part A and part B  (organization is part of my therapy), so

Part A is, Flogging You?

Part B is, Flogging Tookie?

Part C is, Flogging another Criminal Defendant?

Part D is, Flogging the PM of Singapore?

Part E is, Flogging Generally?

Oh my, I got away from myself again.  Good thing I wear dark pants, so nobody notices.

I dunno, what is it?   I mean, who believes it?  They're just saying some trash that doesn't do anything to put the vics back together.

Let's see:  he writes these books, and some kids learn to read when their daddies pay for them.  Do you guess that helps them as much as it hurts all the thousands of kids trashed in millions of ways by his homies?

I don't know a whole lot about moral tone, but I don't see that society's moral tone could be a whole lot worse when Tookie leaves it.

to?

Whatever is this "surrendering power" stuff?

These louts are having a good time because they know the founder of the Crips has gone to his reward, when in fact his mother should be comforted because her feelings might be hurt that her poor benighted son was forced to kill and kill and kill and kill and hate and hate, and make lame-o excuses.

Actually I suspect that THEY have the power over YOU, because you're so disturbed at their party.  Here's what I would do:  go back to my yoga, and think how superior we are.  It makes it so much more exciting to think about what cavemen they are, the next time we need them to kill a spider.

Do you really expect anybody to listen to your opinion when you come out with a stupid comment like that?!

For your information, the US is part of the UN too.  And Switzerland is not part of the EU.  Read some books before you open your mouth - just an idea.

http://tijuanabibles.org/cgi-bin/hazel.cgi?action=home

warden took them away from me.

"Murder" is very specifically defined, eg as in CA, PC 187, et seq.

Practically speaking, "murder" is rarely preceded by an elaborate trial and in CA, mandatory review in appeal.

As for Christianity, etc, you will note that the US constitution requires separation of church and state, as in fact advocated by Christ: "render unto Caesar, the things that are Caesar's...".  You may note that the problems of administering a state are substantially different than those of administering a church.

You need not worry about Mr. Williams or his homies having "power over us" as long as we are willing to demonstrate that we are at least as serious as they are.

and the US constitution supersedes Roman authority by several hundred years.

Equating Mr. Williams to the Jesus Christ or the general case of European Jews in Nazi death camps is morally bankrupt.

Statistics by their nature cannot prove causation, only correlation.  States are by definition unique, and it is naive to assume that a death penalty is the only relevant variable.   There are usually many other variables also associated with lower murder rates in states without a death penalty.

It is naive to assume that "deterrence" is a simple thing, or in fact the only justification for punishment.

A death penalty is the legislative policy of the jurisdiction in question.   When a person is found guilty of the heinous crimes of Mr. Williams, or the sort of crime it takes before CA will execute a defendant (note CA PC 189 to define 1st & 2nd degree murder) then it is no longer about this person's right to live, and instead a matter of the community's right to protect itself from such behavior.  

Whether death is a deterrent to murder (as in fact civilizations have generally accepted over millenia) is not the only issue.  It is more likely that the death penalty is a social ritual to assure the community that they are in fact safe from violent criminals, if by no other means than as a demonstration that the state is willing to exact an eye for an eye.  

The best argument against a death penalty is the possibility of error.  However, that begs the question in 2 important ways:  the absence of a death penalty is not an excuse for mediocre legal process; and taking a man's freedom is also taking his life just as certainly as killing him.

We think you are confusing murderers like Mr. Williams with Bambi.  The death penalty only sets the moral tone of a community insofar as a person identifies with the convict.  If on the other hand, the community rejects the deed the convict personifies, there is no more clear way of demonstrating this than delivering him from this world, much as he did his victims.

For the protection of my family and neighbors, I would cheerfully bust a cap in the skull of any animal like Mr. Williams.     I think it is necessary, and I will not shrink from what I think is necessary.

Tookiecalfragulisticexpeyalidoshus

and so maybe I'll catch you later.

Assuming he did it, I don't care how he dies -- he doesn't deserve to live.