On Sunday, Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki is presenting to the Iraqi General Assembly "A national reconciliation plan for Iraq calls for a timetable for withdrawal of U.S. troops and, controversially, amnesty for insurgents who attacked American and Iraqi soldiers."

There you have it, the official Iraqi government is asking us to please, please leave.  

The man shows more guts than John Kerry and Hillary Clinton both.  I wish we could invite this guy to the US and nominate him for the 2008 Democratic Presidential Candidate.  

I think it's time to declare victory and leave now.  I even think we should let Bushwacker dress in his jumpsuit under a "Mission Accomplished Again!" sign if it will get us out a day faster.

for Iraq. He could teach the Dems a thing or 2 about having the balls to do the tough work.

your characterization of the pullout is incorrect though. it is a "condition driven" pull out which essentially means he's asking us to STAY until we agree conditions are right.

Either way, let's get the fuck out of there.

"""I even think we should let Bushwacker dress in his jumpsuit under a "Mission Accomplished Again!" sign if it will get us out a day faster."""

This was funny BTW. lol  

A strong Iraqi government and constitution now in place after being democratically voted in by the people.  Zarqawi is dead.  There have been hundreds of insurgents killed or captured sice Zarqawi's death due to recently acquired intelligence.

We are definitely losing!  Let's surrender. We can't force a democracy in this region(even if they keep voting and participating in the democracy that they don't want??).  We can "redeploy" our troops to Okinawa to fight terrorism.  It's only 5,000 miles away! (to paraphrase Murtha)

Sorry guys.  A couple of car bombs does not constitute a civil war.  Things are looking up!  Unless you're John Kerry and his ammendment.

Was Israel a country on the brink?  Until the wall was built there was no "safe haven" there either. I guess they were "losing" to Palestine.

They're trying to start a civil war. How's that working out?  As much as you "Amazing Kreskins" out there keep prediciting it.  It won't happen. In fact is the Iraqi people are even more behind us because the terrorists are targeting them and their mosques.

Every election the Iraqi Gov. keeps getting stronger footing.  You keep throwng "ifs" at the situation.  But the reality is a gov. that keeps  taking hold.

Wow, we're losing because we haven't completely rebuilt a country we blew the shit out of three  years ago.  I guess Al Qaeda is also in control of New Orleans.  We haven't rebuilt there either.

The fact is there is no civil war, there is an elected government, and the terrorist keep getting captured and killed.  How exactly are they going to win?  Gore in 2008.

We will never "win" in your eyes as long as there are any terrorists in Iraq. The Middle East will never be Palm Springs. You will keep saying we haven't "finished the job".  Just like Afghanistan.  Did you notice that Mullah Omar claimed the Taliban are in control of large portions of Afghanistan?  He announced it not from his throne, but from an audio tape hiding in a cave somewhere.  What is the arab word for "irony"?

So we have all of this going on and the terrorist have car bombs.  We're losing!  What reality zone are you living in.  Murtha Land?

PS- I live in Baltimore where there aren't a lot of "Safe Havens" either.  
   

-- Modified on 6/25/2006 11:05:10 AM

It would gain some credibility if it got the US out.  It still has the problem of a major civil war, the possibility of intervention by Iran and Turkey, and a possible break up of the nation.  

But the US does no good in this situation.  

It's not a couple of car bombs.  I'll prove that point if you want me to.  It's the death of 30-200 people a day.

So did the Iraqi second in command.  

It seems to be concern number one.  Bush then ignored them and talked about staying the course.  But it was a good photo-op.

So with all that, this president needs a little credibility.  It's a government with its toes over the edge.  Look at the Iraqi Prime Minister, BTW.  He exudes confidence and optimism about the strength of his government.

Bushie will pull out, if 'Merica is allowed to keep it's five football length embassy and the numerous permanent military bases we're building.  Remind me again who's counting Iraq's oil revenues....?

Iraq is the most dangerous place on earth, & that doesn't even take into account the poor infrastructure, polluted water, high unemployment, etc. that plagues Iraq as well...

"At least 50,000 Iraqis have died violently since the 2003 U.S.-led invasion, according to statistics from the Baghdad morgue, the Iraqi Health Ministry and other agencies - a toll 20,000 higher than previously acknowledged by the Bush administration.

The toll, which is dominated by civilians but likely also includes some security forces and insurgents, is daunting: Proportionately, it is as if 600,000 Americans had been killed nationwide during the past three years. In the same period, at least 2,521 U.S. service members have been killed in Iraq".


-- Modified on 6/25/2006 2:25:31 PM

-- Modified on 6/25/2006 2:27:50 PM

is to declare defeat and retreat...say to Oki-now-a...cause tthey love us there.

I just hope we don't run out of "lunch-money" trying to payoff those mean "bullies" to leave us alone...I just wish those damn republicans would stay home and put all those defense dollars into social programs...then the radical muslims would love us. And isn't love what its all about?

I think if we installed Berkinstock stores on every corner and banned the automobile, we'd be OK...Then nobody would want to harm us and we might be safe from prosperity and all those nice (formerly) radical muslim people wouldn't want to kill us.

Also, it would help if we jailed anyone who has ever actually EARNED more than $75,000 in a year (unless they are Democrats that inherrited or married wealth)...that way we'd be sure to avoid moving back into "prosperity mode" where someone somewhere in the world might feel disinfranchised; and therefore, would have a legitimate right to come and kill a few thousand of us...which whould immediately alert (the enlightened among) us that it was our own damn fault.

It is certainly a mystery to me that Republicans fall back on the failed logic that you must perservere to actually accomplish something significant. It reminds me of that dumbass Winston Churchill's "Never Give Up" bullshit speech. Anyone with a brain knows that anything worthwhile comes from the Government, where everyone has the "voice of a village" and political correctness reigns....Isn't "correct" the root of its name, by design?" (Not to be confused with "intelligent design" which isn't really intelligent as it didn't come from Government.)

You must know that conflicts are never settled until someone wins decisively. In my humble opinion that is why the Israelis will never see peace, peaceful coexistence is a myth when dealing with extremists of any color.

Unless and until we are ready to payt the price for total victory, we will continue to face the criticisms we currently endure. When you have any enemy willing to die for their cause, no other solution remains.

Please do not attempt to rebut by saying we need to "understand" them better...it doen't take long to understand that they posses an anhilistic/messianic viewpoint...not looking for compromise...its kill or be killed.

For a dumbass, "W" may end-up stumbling into providence given the current situation in Iran...but don't listen to me, I'm just another blind ideolog.

except that you might wanna make sure that it's not your side that gets whacked.

You are just embarrassing yourself.

-- Modified on 6/26/2006 3:57:03 PM

And I mean utterly!  Their talking like their arch enemy Murtha!

And wouldn't you know!  The timetable happens to call for the first withdrawal of troops two months before the elections.

As Richard Nixon said in '72 two weeks before the election: "Peace is at hand."  

Nevertheless, I think it's just a mood politicians get into every even numbered year.

Unlike Vietnam, there's major amounts of oil in Iraq.  Chainy and Bushwacker are going to be too tempted to make it "pay off."  I'm certain that they sold this war to their oil-company backers saying that they'd have access to the oil.

It just occurred to me that perhaps our great leaders might have been put up as candidates just with that purpose.  That might be going too far, however.  It certainly is something that we had two oil men in office who both wanted us to invade Iraq-- apparently from the very beginning.

even a pol from MN or ME would be tempted.

The problem is thinking clearly about whether you are throwing good money after bad.

If you (the impersonal you) have made a decision - to go into Iraq/Vietnam or chase a debtor, you are invested.   As long as you can keep the ball in the air, you can claim that success is possible, and avoid taking the loss.

People are incredibly emotional about this, and often throw good money after bad, instead of recognizing the loss happened when a losing risk was undertaken.  So they often wind up paying or bleeding much more than they have to.

Reponsible people have to be cold and rational.  But that does not get votes.  So Bush will keep throwing fresh blood after lost blood.   Nothing personal, it's just what gets votes.

When we leave, there will be a state that will be no more stable than it was before, and no more restricted to al qaeda than it was before.   Meanwhile, we will have lost time, money, lives, and the opportunity to catch OBL and build more positive security structures.

None of that will matter to Republicans, because they don't understand it.   Blowing things up feels right to them (hey, I think it's cool too - I'm just smart enough not to blow things up that are going to cost me later - find a bunch of shipwrecks on a deserted island for your fireworks, you know?)

I think oil was a minor issue.   It would have been an issue to Democrats.  I think they went in because it felt right, and they were too lazy and stupid to figure it out.

I would have let the situation develop while I was working on mer certain issues, like (a) transportation security, and (b) nailing bin Laden, and (c) developing a cooperative international intelligence net that would have made it tougher for terrorists to operate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_insurgency

Insurgency does not involve locals killing each other over political issues.   No civil war.  It's very different.   The dead people look very different, and the political situation is very different.   "Civil war" and "insurgency" are spelled entirely differently, and any fool can see they are entirely different words.

George says there's no civil war, and he sees no parallels to Vietnam.   What's Vietnam, anyway?  After all, he's the President.  His memory must be pretty close to perfect, despite being too fucking drunk to remember where he was when he was supposed to be at ANG drills.

I don't.

as an attempt to sway groups of voters, whether its discovering terrorist cells,thwarted terrorism plans, or whatever else Karl Rove can dream up.It isn't for nothing that he's been dubbed a master tactician......

To the oil interests which support Bush, I believe it was sold to them as a business opportunity.  It may have been minor because they would have backed Bush regardless and they are a small but wealthy sector of his support.  

There were several greater reasons I could cite for Bush invading Iraq (none of which have to do with fighting terrorism, since Bush wished to do it before 9/11). However, the oil angle might become more major as the administration looks for some return of the money they have poured into the venture.  

Despite the bad news that gets worse, oil is now flowing from Iraq at a rate of 2 million barrels a day.  I wonder if it's at all economical given the security it requires.

(better known in scientific circles as Barium AgH20)who thundered in '64 : "Extremism in the defense of freedom is no vice" and thus launched the conservative "revolution"! I guess that was probably prior to your arrival on the scene....LOL