I heard Carly Fiorina say on Fox last night that Obama’s proposed national health care plan would cost all employers $1,000.00 a month per employee.  She said that would destroy most small businesses, the backbone of our economy.  If that is true his health care plan could destroy the economy and who would pay the premiums?  We could end up with a bankrupt economy and no health insurance whatsoever. Carly Fiorina is the former CEO of HP and currently an advisor to McCain’s campaign.

you might also ad that Ms Fiorina is the left-after-something-far-short-of-stellar-performance former CEO of HP, which might cause some to wonder about the accuracy of her forecast

Yes Carly was fired by the HP Board primarily due to  her decision to acquire Compaq. Mark Hurd, current CEO, has done a stellar job. Nevertheless, I don't understand your comment that her forecast is suspect based specifically on her tenure @ HP.

First, what pisses me off about the Dems desire for Universal Healthcare is the repeated comments that healthcare is a right. No it's not a right. It's a personal decision. What's next, the right to education, the right to housing, transportation, food, etc. If it's not in the Bill of Rights, it ain't a right.

Second, it's the Dems repeated statements that 47M+ AMERICANS don't have healthcare insurance. What they don't tell you is that 10M+ of that number are illegal immigrants, and 17M+ are Americans who make between $50K and $125K and can afford to pay the premiums, and make a conscious personal decision not to buy insurance.

Fiorina knows a lot about destroying businesses, less about small business.

BTW, the rights enumerated in the Constitution are not limited to the amendments, such as the write of Habeus Corpus.
Right from the beginning in the Preamble the Constitution says its purpose is to "promote the general welfare."  Universal health care would certainly fall under that domain.

OK, so we purposely exclude illegal aliens from this right.  Somehow, i still don't think you're buying this.

And not to forget, there's the ever popular "single-payer" [ie. gov't] method of delivering universal health care coverage.  Which has it's own set of probs, to be sure.  We are not necesarily restricted to provision via employment.

One thing i'd like to see done, and i'm really not kidding is this :  some countries [Ireland and Italy are two i'm aware of] will alllow US citizens to take out citizenship if they can prove parentage, grandparentage, or great-grandparentage tracing back to those countries.  One coworker has taken out Italian citizenship based on his mom's Italian ancestry.  Well, anyway, the US gov't ought to encourage those of us with ancestors from those  lands who allow this, and who also provide some form of universal health care coverage, to take out those second citizenships and use those countries health care systems.  WTF, we can pass on our health care bill to them if they're dumb enough to be willing to pay them.

After all, after fighting the Cold War and now fighting the current Global War On Terror, it's the least those foreign ingrates could do for us.

Re Ms Fiorina, wish she was a provider [ooopss! sorry, wrong Board for that coment!]  No, seriously, if she got the Compaq decision wrong, why would you necessarily trust her judgement on something so much bigger and so much more importantr than the delivery of health care to the masses?  Yes, she is wise to be cautious, but isn't caution the no-brainer of the year, considering?

plus where do you draw the line? Is housing, food, transportation, education part of the general welfare? But then again, we have HUD, food stamps, the recent law to provide foreclosure assistance, etc. I am just not a fan of "cradle to grave" government.

across, but all I am asking for is for the Dems to breakdown the number in detail. But then again it just doesn't sound as good as 47 MILLION AMERICANS.

Re your comment about dual citizenship in order to pass on our health bill. My friend's son lives in France. Let's just say he is unhappy with the direction of America, and prefers the European model. Last year it was discovered he had a benign brain tumor. It's been growing since he was a child. He started to have headaches and blurred vision. Although it was a slow growing tumor, it would not be life threatening for another 5 years. So what did he do, he came back to California, and since he was over 21 with no assets, he was able to get the surgery he needed at UCLA/Harbor Hospital under Medicade. Total bill to the U.S taxpayers - $100K+. France would not perform the surgery until it was life threatening meaning come back in 5 years.

Agree that Carly Fiorina was a poor choice by McCain. Now Meg Whitman was a great choice. We need more economic advisors that have led Fortune 100/500 companies vs the standard economic advisors from academia.

Apart from the increased cost of health care, which will seem cheaper because you will never "pay" for it, the worst part is it will get worse.

Think Post Office running every doctor's office and hospital in the United States, with a computer system set up in Washington.

The estimates of fraud in Medicare and Medical alone are in the tens of billions.  Now increase the size of the program ten fold.

In my heart of hearts I believe things will get worse and more expensive.

So the'll simply lay off half the employees. Wait times and quality will go down, so patronage will fall off. Maybe they'll end up only needing half. No worries then. I'm sure someone is thinking that way, LOL.

-- Modified on 8/27/2008 4:06:20 PM

you seem to get it, but you don't want to cop to it -- ain't no free lunch, and i'm glad your friend's son has gotten the treatment he needed.  But one way or another, the taxpayers -- you, me, GaGambker, etc... - had to foot the bill.  We're really arguing about how exactly that bill, which will be immense, is going to be paid.

And personalizing it, do you really begrudge your friend's son the treatment that he needed?  I would think not, and there's a country full of folks in similar situations like your friend's son.

but what the liberals want is a European model, which is mediocre and rationed health care at best. One of my points, which I unfortunately didn't articulate, is my friend's son can afford health care insurance, but elected not to purchase. He lives and works in France and has access to their health care, but knows our health care is more responsive and superior. I can provide numerous abuses and fraud within Medicare and Medicade, both models Democrats want to replicate for their universal system. And yes, I do begrudge my friend's son the treatment he received. It could have been avoided by either (1) accessing France's health care system, though 5 years later, (2) purchase a U.S. insurance plan, even with a high deductible to minimize the premium, or (3) his parents had the financial resources to pay, but they elected to, in my opinion, defraud the system. Oh by the way, I should say ex-friend.

Can we afford universal health care....NO. The $80 plus billion saved if we pulled out of IRAQ, and the tax increase on the wealthy would not put a dent into to the proposed cost. Now add all the other programs Obama is suggesting. I have not heard one word, from either party, on how to downsize government, or at a minimum, the elimination of departments/programs that no longer provide value or service.

Nationalized medicine is CRAZY.  It will destroy the US economy.  The arguments made by the hobbyist brothers before me in this thread are right on the mark.

dirty rotten socialism and dirty rotten communism are terrible systems.

And Barack Hussein Obama and Joe Biden are sh*t for brains.

care plan. As you state succintly, illegal immigrants will become eligible for health care but also people especially the young etc. who choose not to have health care coverage will now have it. The point is you will now have increased demand for health care, more people the 47 million plus Americans will be seeking medical advice from sniffles to other aches and pains.

Which is fine, however nothing has been done to increase the supply for health care. Will new hospitals be built to deliver medical care? I think not. Millions of doctors, nurses, pharmacists, radiological technicians will not automatically materilize overnight to deliver this increased medical demand of 47 million plus. Thus I forsee the following scenario as a result of Obama's health care plan:

(1) Prices will increase for health care however under Obama's plan Doctors will not be able to increase fees. So next step will happen:

(a) Patient time for appointments will increase or worse, health care will be rationed. That's right who receives bypass heart surgery etc. will be rationed.

(b) The system will eventually breakdown because physicians, nurses etc. simply will guit practice or discourage others from entering the health care field and it's horrendous debt needed for medical school.

McCain and actually Huckabee had a more rational plan. McCain wants to first increase the supply i.e. more medical doctors and then ease national health coverage. Huckabee was more sensible, he promoted decreasing the demand for health care through prevention i.e. excerise, nutrional plans etc.

Obama's plan is irrational and will be painfully expensive and wasteful of our resources. The government has no business being in the health care business.

...by the way, I like your posts.



-- Modified on 8/27/2008 8:59:15 PM

It is amazing how you openly root for higher taxes.  You must be either very rich or very poor.

STRIKE! Take a page out of Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. There are now 10 million households that are classified as millionaires, excluding their home equity. 9 out of 10 are millionaires, not multi-millionaires. They own small business. They work for Fortune 1000 type companies. Majority live very frugal lives. They max out their 401K or IRA's, save for their kids college education, invest conservatively and wisely, but are about to be taxed out of their minds by Obama, Pelosi and Reid in the name of social justice and the collective well being. Although I have no hard facts, I just bet the majority are Republicans/conservatives as it relates to fiscal issues. Most of these people create companies and jobs.

Maybe we could hire the French as consultants on how to bring a country to a complete standstill for a day. They've mastered the art of strikes.

The only good thing I haven't heard out of the DNC this week is the phrase, "It takes a village." God how I hate that fucking phrase.

When did I ever say that?  I  was just pointing out a mistaken view of the  Constitution.

This is from Obama's website....No where does is state that small business would be impacted nor is healtcare being nationalized.  It would still be an insurance based system. DUH....

Barack Obama's Plan
Quality, Affordable and Portable Coverage for All

   * Obama's Plan to Cover Uninsured Americans: Obama will make available a new national health plan to all Americans, including the self-employed and small businesses, to buy affordable health coverage that is similar to the plan available to members of Congress. The Obama plan will have the following features:
        1. Guaranteed eligibility. No American will be turned away from any insurance plan because of illness or pre-existing conditions.
        2. Comprehensive benefits. The benefit package will be similar to that offered through Federal Employees Health Benefits Program (FEHBP), the plan members of Congress have. The plan will cover all essential medical services, including preventive, maternity and mental health care.
        3. Affordable premiums, co-pays and deductibles.
        4. Subsidies. Individuals and families who do not qualify for Medicaid or SCHIP but still need financial assistance will receive an income-related federal subsidy to buy into the new public plan or purchase a private health care plan.
        5. Simplified paperwork and reined in health costs.
        6. Easy enrollment. The new public plan will be simple to enroll in and provide ready access to coverage.
        7. Portability and choice. Participants in the new public plan and the National Health Insurance Exchange (see below) will be able to move from job to job without changing or jeopardizing their health care coverage.
        8. Quality and efficiency. Participating insurance companies in the new public program will be required to report data to ensure that standards for quality, health information technology and administration are being met.
   * National Health Insurance Exchange: The Obama plan will create a National Health Insurance Exchange to help individuals who wish to purchase a private insurance plan. The Exchange will act as a watchdog group and help reform the private insurance market by creating rules and standards for participating insurance plans to ensure fairness and to make individual coverage more affordable and accessible. Insurers would have to issue every applicant a policy, and charge fair and stable premiums that will not depend upon health status. The Exchange will require that all the plans offered are at least as generous as the new public plan and have the same standards for quality and efficiency. The Exchange would evaluate plans and make the differences among the plans, including cost of services, public.
   * Employer Contribution: Employers that do not offer or make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees will be required to contribute a percentage of payroll toward the costs of the national plan. Small businesses will be exempt from this requirement, and will receive a new Small Business Health Tax Credit that helps reduce health care costs for small businesses.
   * Support for Small Businesses: Barack Obama will create a Small Business Health Tax Credit to provide small businesses with a refundable tax credit of up to 50 percent on premiums paid by small businesses on behalf of their employees. This new credit will provide a strong incentive to small businesses to offer high quality health care to their workers and help improve the competitiveness of America’s small businesses.
   * Mandatory Coverage of Children: Obama will require that all children have health care coverage. Obama will expand the number of options for young adults to get coverage, including allowing young people up to age 25 to continue coverage through their parents' plans.
   * Expansion Of Medicaid and SCHIP: Obama will expand eligibility for the Medicaid and SCHIP programs and ensure that these programs continue to serve their critical safety net function.
   * Flexibility for State Plans: Due to federal inaction, some states have taken the lead in health care reform. The Obama plan builds on these efforts and does not replace what states are doing. States can continue to experiment, provided they meet the minimum standards of the national plan.

Just how the fuck is this supposed to benefit my small business?

  * Employer Contribution: Employers that do not offer or make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees will be required to contribute a percentage of payroll toward the costs of the national plan. Small businesses will be exempt from this requirement, and will receive a new Small Business Health Tax Credit that helps reduce health care costs for small businesses.
  * Support for Small Businesses: Barack Obama will create a Small Business Health Tax Credit to provide small businesses with a refundable tax credit of up to 50 percent on premiums paid by small businesses on behalf of their employees. This new credit will provide a strong incentive to small businesses to offer high quality health care to their workers and help improve the competitiveness of America’s small businesses.

IOW The government is only going to fuck me half as hard as they are going to fuck larger businesses. But then in orfer to pay for this they are going to raise my taxes enough to make the fucking complete.

Obviously you can read but have the inability to understand what you read. I will refrain from using language that you're fond of using...I can express myself in a more intelligent manner.

As a small business owner that does offer health care, I know exactly how expensive health care is. Outside of payroll, it is my 2nd highest expense.  The current system is stacked against small businesses who do want to provide good benefits to our employees.  Small businesses cannot pool together to reduce the overall health care risks across a larger population. Therefore increasing the cost of the premiums that we pay.  For years, politicians from both parties have known this problem and have done little to address the deficiencies in our "employer-based" system.

Obama is offering a step in the right direction.  Mandatory insurance a a way to spread the risks and still maintain an employer based system.  Obama is proposing ways to help small business meet this health care requirement.  There is no such assistance today.

To say that small businesses are going to get screwed half as much as big businesses is disengenuous.  Many employers, including small businesses have to offer health care to attract and retain qualified employees.  I view healthcare insurance as a legitimate and required cost of doing business.

Furthermore, under current tax-code, many of these expenses can be used to reduce the amount of tabable income, therefore allowing businesses, large and small to retain more profit.

Also think about the current system, if you have the ability.  Because of high numbers of un-insured, all of us are forced to pay increased premiums.  We're all paying one way or another.

So...get the blinders off and see what's happening around you.

"Also think about the current system, if you have the ability.  Because of high numbers of un-insured, all of us are forced to pay increased premiums.  We're all paying one way or another".

When are the Feds going to start supplying auto insurance for everyone, since there are also so many uninsured drivers costing the insured more??
 

uninsured drivers do actually raise the rates of insured drivers. The case cannot be made that people without health insurance raise the rates of those that do. The argument itself is specious and not even worth debating.

Thats just one of the problems with debating issues with lefties, they just go around making shit up. How a person can make the leap of logic that people without health insurance drive the rates up for others is beyond me. I don't have health insurance myself,(I can afford it, I just choose to self insure) I defy anyone to show how my practice of paying my own health care expenses without the benefit of insurance has any negative effect on their health insurance.

If everone is required to pay into an national insurance system it is no longer insurance, it's socialism just like social security. Social security is a government program that started as insurance too, It works so well that now Obama is proposing that the government take over 15% of every dollar my business ever makes to pay for it. Now they propose to do the same thing with health care. No thank You, just let me opt out TYVM

His plan sounds so good. A two-second analysis shows its a dream.

A few quick examples.

First, he says, "No American will be turned away from any insurance plan because of illness or pre-existing conditions."  That is insurance.  By its very definition, you can't insure for an existing condition, you insure for contingencies. Think of your car. You can't buy insurance after an accident. If you can get insurance for existing conditions, the answer is never pay for it before, wait until you get sick, and then sign up.

Likewise, his simplified paperwork is a guarantee for fraud.  The biggest problem with existing government programs is fraud consumes a huge amount, often doubling the cost.  Make it easier to apply, make it faster to get benefits, and the scam artists will be in line at every doctor's office.  I am sorry, but I just don't think people are honest enough.

Finally, why do we need coverage for children whose parents can afford it.  All that does is create another level of paperwork.  If I can afford health care for me, it will cost $X per visit.  If the doctor gets the same amount but has to bill it through the government it will cost X plus Y.  I know. Years ago I processed medical claims.  

The cheapest way it to only provide it for those who need it, and let those who can afford it pay for it.

PS I just had a large bill for a non-deductible portion of emergency room care.  I chose a program with a large deductible, and saved money for 10 years.  When I needed some emergency care, I paid a lot out of pocket, but I had saved a lot over the years.  Not complaining.

And the best part is that I did not ask any body on this board to help me pay for it. You can all send me a dollar if you want to help.

What Obama proposes is not insurance at all, it is simply socialized health care proposed by a socialist running on a platform of socialism.

Thank you again for paying your own way, somehow I am sure some lefty is going to claim that your doing so is going to raise insurance rates. At least that was the line of reasoning given to me about the uninsured.

FWIW I am technically one of the uninsured myself, I like you decided that the savings were worth the risk, if I ever end up having to pay a large hospital bill then so be it. I will follow your example and pay my bill without the help of anyone here on this board. lol