The plight of black Americans cannot be compared to any other ethnic group or race in America. Blacks were the only group of people who were brought here in chains and against their will.  They were robbed of their culture, language, and heritage and were the only group of people who were slaves.  Everyone else with the exception of the American Indians came here of their own free will.

It is true that every ethnic group had a hard time with discrimination of one type or another. However, every immigrant who came to this country had some connection to get started.  The Jews gravitated to the needle trades; The Irish had connections and became cops; the Greeks had family in the restaurant business etc. I know that is being overly general but no one came here without some help from the people who were already here.  They brought their culture, skills, customs and most of all they were greeted by their own people who were already established.  The blacks on the other hand had nothing.  They were unskilled cotton pickers and had virtually no connections, or networking at all.  

When slavery ended blacks were somewhat free but they were second class citizens in the South and de facto second class citizens in the North.  They entered a society with little or no marketable skills and were clearly identifiable by the color of their skin so it was hard for them to hide the fact they were black.  A young black man couldn't say he was going to Atlanta to learn the hardware business by working in his uncle’s hardware store because there was no uncle in the hardware business.  They were ripped off, screwed over and lived at the whim of a society in which there were not participating members.  They remained second class citizens for another hundred years until roughly the 1960's.

A very interesting but little know fact is that from the conclusion of the Civil War until about the 1920's blacks made up about 10% of the population but only accounted for less than 4% of the prison population.  In other words a black man was less than half as likely to end up in the criminal justice system as the general population which was almost all white at that time.  The majority of blacks lived in the South during that period under oppressive conditions and abject poverty but they were still less prone to crime than whites.  Blacks were very family oriented people who worked hard and were close to their black churches.  They had deep roots and lived in close knit communities.  

The country went wild during prohibition.  For the first time in history women had a little freedom.  They could drink in speak easys with men, smoke cigarettes, dress like and be flappers.  
But the majority of blacks shunned the wild life and for the most part lived an austere life. The majority of Blacks who were registered to vote were Republicans. The black land grant colleges in the South were so conservative that black students were prohibited from holding hands on campus.  

Beginning in the late 1920’s the largest internal migration in the history of the country began when blacks started migrating from the Mississippi Delta to Chicago.  There were so many blacks going north on the Illinois Central Railroad that they called it was called the colored train.  Blacks felt they could do better in the North because there were opportunities in cities like Chicago that they simply didn’t exist in the South, and the North was not "officially" segregated.  However, once they arrived in the promise land they realized they were not much better off than they were in the South.  There was de facto segregation in housing and the jobs for blacks paid considerably less than for whites. Again, they were screwed by unscrupulous businesses and ripped off at every turn.  They ended up living in ghettos because everywhere they moved the whites moved out.  Newly arrived white immigrants refused to live in neighborhoods with blacks who had lived in this country for hundreds of years.  

It was almost impossible for Black men to gain sustainable employment and as a result felt inadequate as bread winners and began to drift away from their families leaving single mothers to raise the children.  The black family started to disintegrate and has been dissolving every since.

It is an undisputable fact that blacks are more prone to crime today than other races.  However, I think the reason is quite evident. America needs to learn from the black experience, not just for the benefit of blacks but for the benefit of all Americans.  Blacks are a resilient people who have survived insurmountable odds. However, as a people they are being destroyed by the disintegration of the family unit, something that is happening to children of all races today.  

In about forty five years blacks have gone from second class citizens to the White House and everything in between.  With what they have had to work with they probably have done better overall than any other race or ethnic group in the country.  As a people they won’t truly be free until they accept the fact that they are not living in a “white man’s” country but a country that belongs to all its citizens.  At this point their biggest obstacles are the predators who profit from keeping them down by perpetuating a victim mentality.  Of course I am referring to Jesse Jackson and his ilk who tell black Americans that everything that goes wrong in their lives is the result of the white man and they are not responsible for their own short comings.    

OK, maybe it didn't start that way, but it came full circle back into a field of horse's shit.  I don't think you even realized that you contradicted yourself.  You spent much of your post acknowledging the disparities and then out of nowhere you launch into the demonizing of Jesse Jackson bullshit.  Man, that tripe is old, dated, and irrelevant as hell.  Happens all the time, but nobody who does it can ever point to a statement he made regarding black people that's incorrect, wrong or "predatory."  He just happens to have been vocal about racism, so he becomes a predictable poster child for people who have difficulty discussing the real problem or accepting that they're likely a part of it.  Besides, there's not enough of a consensus among black people about Jesse Jackson for any supposed predatory behavior to be effective.  I suppose the Pied Piper characterization makes you more comfortable, but quite a few black Americans are indifferent to Jesse Jackson and what he has to say.  Some even hate him.  Some don't know who he is.  I suppose looking through your fucked up, polarized lenses it's easy to paint all black people Jesse.  

Look, boa...may be hard to believe, but black people can walk and chew gum at the same time.  Discussions and demand for redress in regard to how they're treated doesn't automatically come with a side of social paralysis and self marginalization.  Suggesting this to any group of people is condescending and unproductive.  In essence you're saying "ignore the external barriers that have been up around you, you're only capable of concentrating on yourselves."  Now how the fuck can anyone expect an ethnic group to not take offense to that mentality?  That's what holdup to race relations is in this country.  It isn't "excuses."  It's not Jesse.  It's not Al. It's you, dumbass.  It's you and your "ilk."  I hate that fucking word btw.  It's overused here.  Pick up a damn thesaurus next time you get the urge.    

-- Modified on 7/24/2009 11:41:43 PM

Native American in this continent, North and South were systematically eliminated. Elimination of an entire culture in history.

They have not recovered even today.

It's easy to make a statement and walk away, it takes real guts to actually debate them.

Looks like the only person's credibility being damaged here today is yours.

I just get so tired of people crying and moaning about what happened to their ancestors.

I watch 30 year olds who have never known slavery, perjudice maybe so, but that cut's both ways. There are neighborhoods in my city I had best not be in at night becasue I am white.

Bottom line is its time for those who did not really suffer to stop trying to profit from those who did. Most of those poor souls are gone and we can only hope God is evening the score for them.

Unless it is something that has actually happened to you, please sit down and STFU. There are people of all races and nationalities (including individual whites) who can tell hardship stories about their lives, but those will any real intelligence get off their *ss and improve their own situations.

It did take balls to write/post this thread..Seems these days, if you just talk about race relations in America and your white, YOUR A RACIST!! And thats just not true, its the way their trying to ''condition'' us, so that all white americans who dare talk about race, can be labeled a racist, for just talking about race relations..AND IT MAKES NO SENSE!!!

Do you realize that you came down on both sides of the same issue in this thread, you fucking dunce?

You make no sense.  Ever.  Another thing that annoys me about you is the fact that you consistently fail to use "YOUR" correctly...and you do it all the time, so it's not a typo.  

Google "apostrophe" and then Google "You're."  Don't type another fucking thread until you do.  Please.

-- Modified on 7/25/2009 6:19:15 AM

when you said this:


"It is an undisputable fact that blacks are more prone to crime today than other races."  


       When you put it this way, you effectively imply that being black is a predictor of criminal behavior. In fact, it is the social aspects of being black -many of which you accurately recount in your history - that have resulted in the disproportionate number of crimes being commited by black men.

        Indeed, your historical account rebuts your black equals crime conclusion. If blacks inherently have a propensity to commit crime the 10% population vs. 4% in prison in the 1920swould rebut this.Social factors are what cause them to commit crime, not their race.

      I really think you recognize this yourself from the incisive way you explain that blacks in America have a different history than any other ethnic group. But you stumble when you formulate your conclusion in terms of "blacks" being prone to commit crime. Not only is this disputed but any social scientist would tell you that the mainstream view is that race is not a causual factor here.

      I suspect that if you took the total number of males in prison, screened out the inmates who were poor, came from fatherless families, and grew up in a culture similar to the average black family over the past 60 years, you would find the same proportion of whites to blacks in prison.








-- Modified on 7/25/2009 6:58:26 AM

-- Modified on 7/25/2009 7:51:59 AM

Did you not see her cityvibe ad? She is Ivy League educated, so I'm sure that she is right and Your wrong.  LMAO

Quick...call out the posting police!!!!!  TJ doesn’t use good grammar...  Like you are some fucking genius zorf????  Like you ever make any sense?????  All you ever see and spread is hatred!!!!  Go hate yourself like the rest of us do and leave the debating of the issues to those who can think with their brains!!!!!  Want to bitch about spelling and grammar...become an English teacher!!!!!

And you are a fucking IDIOT!!!!!!!

Blacks in America have have the highest standard of living of any Blacks who ever lived. As far as the ancestors are concerned, as Sowell pointed out, the lucky ones were those who got on the slave ships. (I will try to find the source for his comments)

What a weird post. Do you know the meaning of class struggle? Your sense of US history seems to be somewhat limited. In case you slept through US history in school I have supplied a link. Oh wait , My bad, some schools did not teach this part of US history till the early 60's hence the need for "Black Studies" departments in colleges.

lol.  I missed that.  Well now I just feel silly.

Sowell is a special kind of lackey. I guess if you are grasping for straws any source of data that supports your position will do.

Are you saying you wan to be a racist? You want to be able to define ideas in terms of  race but don't want to be called racist? I will go along with it if you show us your tits. OK

A Person can manipulate numbers to come to any conclusion they want.

This argument has only proven that there are idiots on both sides of this issue. For once I am going to stay out of the discussion, as usual it has deteriorated into an idiotic name calling contest with little actual debate.

Do you mean "Whoreshit" or "Horseshit" If you meant the former, it might be better directed at TJ than Balboa. lol

I should have explained with more clarity but my point was this: The underlying reason blacks in America today are more apt to end up in the criminal justice system is due to the fact that a large percentage of the black population lives in poverty and break down of the family.  I am sure if a study was conducted on the percentage of blacks who were raised in middle class or higher families and ended up in the criminal justice system the results would mirror the non black population of the same socioeconomic classes.  There are certain genetic traits that are more prevalent in certain races and ethnic groups than other groups but notion that blacks, as a race, are "programed" for crime is ridiculous.

My other point was that the conditions that spawn criminals in the black communities are becoming common among other races and we can expect similar results.

the way you have explained it. And I think the other posters who took a harsh view were making the same misreading that I was.

just means that you can't comprehend what I am writing, and the fact that you had to resort to verbal attacks just confirms your intelligence level.

Perhaps you might consider Marvel comics and leave the politics to the adults.

First of all that statement only assume a westernized point of history.  For starters, Ancient Egyptians were black or Negro. Cush or modern day Ethiopia were civilizations equal in wealth to feudal European society. Nubia, or Modern Day Sudan around the 5th cataract on the Nile. In fact the Nubian Civilization conquered Egypt  and was the 28th Dynasty.

Now others say that most  African America came from Western Europe and to  separate  then from established Civilizations, the term Sub-Saharan Africa.  To that point, Africa had three great civilization Ghana, Mali and Songhai.  Mali wealth so great that when its King, Mansa  Musa went on a pilgrimage to Mecca in a famous Caravan that gave away  so much gold he dropped the value of Gold in Egypt for 12 years.

Now was this standard of living that to the Pre-Mercantile Europe of the 17Cth of course not but the standard was equal to lets say medieval Europe

Sowell simply looked at Africa pre colonial and brought into the notion that Black ere lucky to be enslaved  and Christianized  through 400 years of slavery, segregation and degradation so we can be better off than the starving  masses in Africa.  

Apologist like Sowell reminds me of those pseudo-intellects who have justified slavery by saying well African sold other Africans into slavery…and if you read an economist like Sowell, who lacks  sense of history, I am sure you heard that also.  

Typo, but either one works for me.

I called him a racist and in the traditional sense of the word, he is not and I will apologizeto him.  ALL Americans are racist.  We see our lives in the sphere of  race.  You can travel throughout Europe and you will not hear anyone refer to themselves as white.  When  I lived in Europe, I lived in the Netherlands and for the first time in my life, I was an American, not African American or Afro American and definitely not black.  When they introduced me to their friends, I was introduced as an American.  I never honestly considered myself as an American but black or African American and for the first time I was an American, just an American.

Case in point, I never heard a “black” Brit  and one would never refer themselves as one nor I never met a “black” Canadian .  So  black and white is unique to America (well South Africa but that’s different) .  It interesting that no one is really “white” - they are Italian, Greek, English, Irish,  Dutch and so on.  So the question is how to we get to a country of simply black and white, and of course immigrants (non white/black citizens).  The simple and quick answer is how to Americanized people but yet maintaining a social caste system.  To simply call everyone white and black.  For those who like to read their facts , I would suggest the book,  Working Towards Whiteness:  How Immigrants became White .

The problem is that we are still divided by race and what keep people poor is a lack of opportunity.  Yes , many blacks and whites choose to not to take  advantage through education  but we established that black have a particular steep climb.  But rather than go to the historical aspect that Snowman39 suggest is hogwash, I will say this, as long as America divides Americans into black and white blacks will always  be at a disadvantage.  Why, because as long as we see our Americans in the prism of color, those who do  control the industries and businesses who hire will always prefer their own.  

Imagine if some of the posters who are clearly see people  as a race and not as fellow Americans  have to hire these fellow Americans , I would doubt that they would hire someone who don’t look like them.  Are they racist, of course not but if I read a stats or as some suggest on these last thread blacks are more prone to crime, I would not  either.  

Now before people scoff and say that a “pie in the sky” thinking it can’t be done.  It was but a generation ago “Little Italy”  was not just a “novelty” but where immigrants from Italy would be welcomed and live among the familiar

Let us all be Americans, I will start by  always referring myself as an American.  We will all be dead but perhaps our future  great grandchildren will do so

wizard feels inferior to both of them ...
Its quite evident.

Unless you were born in Africa you are not "African American" anymore than I am "Asian American". Anyone born here is just plain old American.

That goes for all hyphenated classes of Americans. If you truly want to be "equal" why the divisive names? I practice what I preach, whenevery anyone tries to call me "Asian American" I set them straight immediately. I don't want any "special rights" equality works just fine for me.

a movement to start to Americanize people is to stop identifying themselves as such.  Like no one says I am an Italian American anymore.  Also native born Africans are not.  My mother came from Liberia, she laughs at that phrase but will curse out anyone that call her black....LOL

-- Modified on 7/25/2009 10:36:41 PM

zyou should be on last comic standing but he first to go ..but if I ever felt inferior to Sarah Palin or TJ, I would personally slash my own throat.

You think I'm joking but I am quite serious..
The fact you post TJ comments when she isn't even on the thread tells me something you can't see..Just Ask Freud

Read the thread, TJ said "Right On Balboa and Snowman39" Zorf responded and I responded to Zorf making fun of her too.  Soooo is TJ one of your ATF's, so why you feel you have to be her knight?

-- Modified on 7/26/2009 8:18:37 AM

Then there are the immigrants from South Africa that are of 4th generation British or Dutch heritage that enter “African American” on U.S. forms, only to be subsequently excoriated.

Wikipedia gives credit to none other than Jesse Jackson for popularizing the term.

As I posted earlier, long before Jesse Jackson was born, racial ID existed.  Most blacks considered them offensive like colored and especially "Negro" which sound too much like the N-Word.  So I agree, perhaps Jesse should have pushed the end of racial identification but its not his creation.  So who created Asian American or Hispanic??

I refuse to be called "Asian American" and I can list a few broken noses on my resume that belong to people that insisted that I was somehow a "lesser" kind of American because of the shape of my eyes.

One difference I do see between the term Asian American and African American is the fact that there are millions of immigrants from Asia that are legitimately "Asian Americans". Conversely, there are very few African Americans that are actually immigrants from Africa.

Between voluntary immigration and forced immigration? So where do blacks come from a country name "Black". Now you are correct, most blacks do not know what part of Africa they came from that continent.  My mother was born and raised in Liberia but I would never call myself a Liberian and no native born African calls themselves hyphenated American,they call themselves Nigerian, Ghanian and so on. Maybe its different with Asians.

I am referring to first generation vs second generation or further.

A person that immigrates to this country, lets say from Mexico is properly referred to as "Mexican American". If his parents or ancestors came from Mexica, but he was born here he is not "Mexican American" but just plain old American. American of Mexican descent yes, Mexican American, no.

Does that clear up my point?

If your are born in that country and actually immigrated those hyphenated desciptions are more valid.  So you are right, technically if you were born in this country you are not an immigrant at all.   I am slow sometimes

I doubt anyone knows who actually created it. Shortly before the present African-American phase began there was the "Black is Beautiful" phase.

-- Modified on 7/26/2009 12:52:29 PM

So cum here, and let me sit on your lap daddy!

I swear, I can still feel you in my jaw, from the last time you let me ride it

-- Modified on 7/28/2009 7:41:10 PM

Actually the "verbal atacks" started from MOFW.  Forgive me for getting caught up in the childishness and responding with the same.