Of course, for the common citizen, it is a case of the country that their family worked hard to make great stabbing them in the back, but oh well...that't modern life/global economy/market forces/etc, so too bad.

"Soup is Good Food" by Dead Kennedys
------------------------------------
We’re sorry
But you’re no longer needed
Or wanted
Or even cared about here
Machines can do a better job than you
This is what you get for asking questions

The unions agree
’sacrifices must be made’
Computers never go on strike
To save the working man you’ve got to
put him out to pasture

Looks like we’ll have to let you go
Doesn’t it feel fulfilling to know
That you, the human being, are now obsolete
And there’s nothing in hell
we’ll let you do about it

Chorus
Soup is good food (we don’t need you any more)
You made a good meal (we don’t need you any more)
Now how do you feel (we don’t need you any more)
To be shit out our ass
And thrown in the cold like a piece of trash

We’re sorry
You’ll just have to leave
Unemployment runs out after just six weeks
How does it feel to be a budget cut?
You’re snipped
You no longer exist
Your number’s been purged fm our central computer
So we can rig the facts
And sweep you under the rug
See our chart? unemployment’s going down
If that ruins your life that’s YOUR problem

Chorus

We’re sorry
We hate to interrupt
But it’s against the law to jump off this bridge
You’ll just have to kill yourself somewhere else
A tourist might see you
And we wouldn’t want that
I’m just doing my job, you know
So say uncle
And we’ll take you to the mental health zoo
Force feed you mind-melting chemicals
Til even the outside world looks great
In hi-tech science research labs
It costs too much to bury all the dead
The mutilated disease-injected
Surplus rats who can’t be used anymore
So they’re dumped (with no minister present)
In a spiraling corkscrew dispose-all unit
Ground into sludge and flushed away
Aw geeeeez!!!

Chours

We know how much you’d like to die
We joke about it on our coffee breaks
But we’re paid to force you to have a nice day
In the wonderful world we made just for you

Poor rats, we human rodents chuckle
At least we get a dignified cremation
At yet
At 6:00 tomorrow morning
It’s time to get up and go to work

competition is good for the consumer, because it keeps businessmen honest.  Governments need to be kept honest through transparent procedures and adversary processes.

Somehow, though, the schmuck who knows the least about what's going on is entitled to a warm bed courtesy of somebody ELSE, and whenever he's unhappy or dies, it's the fault of some corporation somewhere.  He doesn't need to pitch in, doesn't need to do anything but carp when he feels like it, and there will never be any accounting.  Free markets are good for everybody except the laborer - somehow he should be exempt.     The reason for this is that he should not be parasitized by the businessman, he should be parasitized by the cheapest local politician instead.   Can't have business or legitimate government horning in on the territory of the politician who can't get elected.

So if something doesn't work quite right, the logical thing to do is blame the unusual among us.  Couldn't be us; it's obviously those with the pointy ears among us, and that works best when there are the fewest of them.  It's like the Jews - anybody who teaches their kids to cipher must be responsible for everybody's financial problems.

Competition is NOT a fact of life.  Entitlement is best, and whinging is the best way to enforce entitlement.  Look how good it works for all the inbred organizations and families of the world.   We would NEVER want to let our work speak for itself.

Conventional wisdom and experience is that free markets allow the greatest good to the greatest number of people.

Of course, there are all sorts of limits to a free market, and property itself is one.

The question becomes, what exactly does citizenship entitle a person to?  In very socialistic societies, it can be a cradle-to-grave guarantee; while in more fluid societies, it may carry no guarantee at all.

The question is, what works best?  Obviously, that  depends on the perspective.   It's common for a person who can't quite get it to think that people are ganging up on them, just as it's common for people who do get it to think that others are dumb fucks.  Again, it becomes an issue of what works best, and economics - too much socialism does not work well, as the Soviets showed us, because it distorts the economy.   Too little does not work well either, because it does not permit either specialization or flexibility that leads to efficiency.

We doubt that conclusory assumptions about foreigners shed any light on the problem.   It is reasonable to assume that cheaper labor lowers wage rates, but presumably that differential ends up in the consumer's pocket - of course it does not always, but that would be because of poor competition.  The solution seems to be in the market, not in blaming people who talk funny, or cross boundaries to engage in voluntary transactions.

So, exactly why would a dead person care what happened to their body?  Or, are the live people using this as a political symbol instead?  Not that there is anything wrong with that - it is only better to be honest about it, and recognize that everybody has their own politics, and it may work best if we do not beat each other over the head with our own politics.   Cooperation may get better results than fighting - at least until we start having population problems, then of course a war solves both the population AND entertainment problems...

And fighting the workingmen of other countries simply plays into the hands of the parasites, whoever they may be.   In the end, life is full of all sorts of unpleasantness, such as death and drinking far too much, and blaming somebody else is rarely helpful.  Blaming foreigners is best, though, because they are usually in the worst position to do anything about it.

place your vote for the Dem that coaxed you here, then get the fuck out.....

sucks your blood and then deports you?  Oh, I forgot, it's the Dems who are to blame for everything, because they're not mean and stupid enough...

Why should a wetback care aboout voting, and exactly how do you think they're gonna establish residency and identity to do that?  

I'm sure you have some logic in there somewhere, but it'd probly take a few years of therapy to get to...

Actually, it's more like, if you have a problem, it's almost surely because of that little brown feller down the street with the funny accent, so why doncha go lynch him?  Then when things get worse, you can find somebody else to lynch.  Try hard enough, and we'll get down to the level that nobody will want to come here, and your kids can go hat in hand begging for work in some other country...

what's a bigot?

to assume that people come to the US because some Democrat wants them to vote.   Much closer that they come because some Repubican wants them to work.

But then, them Republicans wouldn't be in office 'cepting for morons, neither.

as always, simply have no ambition.  They want to fuck interns, and buy dead people's votes.  Republicans just buy Supreme Court votes, and fuck the entire country.

How can you have respect for the Democrats' amateur cons, when the Republicans are so professional?

Spock says, every mouth comes with a pair of hands.  Them that works, rates being fed; them that doesn't, don't.   Them that uses their brains, rates talking; them that doesn't, should save their breath.

The drivel below is from an unknown source, apparantely as stupid as the Dead Kennedys, above.  You fellers just pay some politicians to bash each other, and see if we care...



MAY FIRST, 2006
INTERNATIONAL U.S./MEXICO BORDER
TIJUANA AND SAN DIEGO
PROTESTS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BORDER
 
-----------------------------------

TIJUANA
DAY of PROTEST: MAY FIRST

From Las Brisas Shopping Center to the Gabacho (the U.S.) Consulate in Tijuana (behind Agua Caliente, Colonia Hipódromo)
Tijuana, Baja California
12:00 pm

We demand wages in the maquiladoras that respect the Mexican Constitution

No more than eight hours per shift
No more abuses and despotism in the maquiladoras
No more sexual harassment in the maquiladoras
No more poisoning chemicals in the maquiladoras
No more company unions in the maquiladoras  

In solidarity with the National Great American Boycott of 2006 on the other side of the border.

In solidarity with Mexicans who will strike at the other side of the border
Full rights for all immigrants in the US.

On May 1st, don’t buy in the US, don’t cross the border, don’t buy Gringo products Don’t buy at Costco, Sam’s Club, Home Depot, McDonald’s, Burger King, etc. Protest at the U.S. Consulate in Tijuana
Sponsored by the Zapatista Other Campaign (La Otra Campaña) in Tijuana Another May First without borders, anti-capitalist, from the left and from the bottom .



SAN DIEGO
Bi-National Great American Boycott of 2006

Bi-National Great American Boycott of 2006
Gran Protesta Binacional 2006
A day without an immigrant
Un día sin Inmigrantes

WHEN: San Diego May 1, 2006: Call to Action!

WHERE:  The United States side will march from San Ysidro Community Park at 1:00 PM, go on a 2.8 mile triangular route, first to Larsen Park, then to the San Ysidro border. We will then return to the starting point for speeches, music, voter registration, cultural presentations and much, much more!

WHO: “March 25th Coalition against HR4437 San Diego” will join the “March 25th Coalition against HR4437 Los Angeles,” the organizers of the mega march of almost 2 million on March 25th, in their efforts toward “El Gran Paro Americano 2006.”

Nationwide Immigrant General Strike Wear White T-Shirt on May 1st!

More Info:

On May 1, we are calling for No Work, No School, No Sales, and No Buying, and also to have rallies around symbols of economic trade in your areas (stock exchanges, anti-immigrant corporations, etc.) to protest the anti-immigrant movements across the country.

On May 1, we will wear "white" a T-Shirt and/or white arm bands, we can paint and write our political demands (and creative arts) at the T-shirt go to rally, protest, strike, vigil, work or school--we will have a ocean of white T-shirts with our political demands from east coast to west coast, at the street, work place, school, bus station & store... and our voice will be LOUD AND CLEAR AND CANNOT BE SILENT FOR EVER!

Full Rights for All Immigrants--We will settle for nothing less than full amnesty and dignity for the millions of undocumented workers presently in the U.S. We believe that increased enforcement is a step in the wrong direction and will only serve to facilitate more tragedies along the Mexican-U.S. border in terms of deaths and family separation.

Immigrants contribute 7 billion in social security per year. They earn 240 billion, report 90 billion, and only are reimbursed 5 billion, where are the 85 billion? They also contribute to the U.S. economy 25 billion more than they receive in healthcare, etc., etc., etc.

According to the anti-immigrant politicians and hate-mongers, “immigrants are a drain on society.”  If this is true, then on May 1st the stock market will surge, and the economy will boom.  If not, we prove them wrong once and for all.  We know what will happen because we know the truth!

we still have, for the most part, politicians in both parties who are a waste of skin.  

No one holds any politician to telling the truth, any truth.  And while I know that you hold that fibbing over a BJ in the white house is not the equivalent to lying over WMDs and the ability and intent to use them, I would hold that lying in one instance gives the false impression that lies (of any size, color or magnitude) will be tolerated by our elected officials.  To stop one, you must stop the other.  If you have children - you understand.  If you don't - you don't.

education a low priority, Republicans buy votes through taxation and legislation favorable to business and corporate chieftans.  

Respect?  for parties that tell me to choose between two C/D Yale students?  lol.... gimme a break.

That's a Chicago/Cook County specialty, but it sometimes also occurs in Miami/Dade County and USED to occur in the past as well in Boston.

But in the main the practioners of this particular electoral black art have given up the ghost [OUCH!].

if for no other reason than if we are facing criminals, and they know exactly what we will do, they will evade it.  Another good reason is, what price will we pay in any situation?  

I agree that lying or even misleading about a BJ should cost a man his bar card.   However, it does not infer that his accusers are any cleaner, or a better alternative, nor that adultery should shape our national policy.

What is considerably more amazing to me is that we should elect a man we KNOW to be a liar, ie does not remember DUIs or his military record...but we do this, with a little help from a few media and other whores of the RNC...present company excepted, of course - actually, whoring is not my beef; it's misleading people that is my beef.  

Part of the problem is Gresham's law, that bad currency drives out good - noting it's economics, ie human behavior that pervades many issues; that in a close call, a little cheating can put a competitor over the top; and that's like any game, when does the ref call a foul?  Whatever the decision, somebody will be pissed...

To show my hand, I think that we should look 1st and most to who will be productive citizens, and there are a lot of illegals who have a good track record here, and we should find some accomodation for them, lest we hurt ourselves.   OTOH, there are many who, for different reasons, will not, and we should lose them ASAP.  

My only regret is that we cannot also deport useless US citizens, and there are of course broad categories of those...but perhaps some policy revisions could mitigate those.

It is essential that we maintain an open and orderly society...some thugs ambushed the Baja state chief of police Tuesday, and the only reason we do not get involved is, we really do not know who the bad guys are...

need a leader....  lol!

and education while demonizing the one channel thru which they actually earn their way thru.

That does not compute

things that can legitimately be said about either or both.

I'm not so sure classroom grades are as important as real-life deeds.   Certainly in a case of Bush vs. Kerry, a clear tie breaker.

Personally, I'm not so worried about politicians who are boring, or married to ugly-ass multimillionaires.  I do worry about lying-ass politicians, and I also worry about the people who are backing them.   Al Sharpton or Ken Lay is a Hobson's choice, no?    And as between vanilla perverts and hypocritical perverts, I tend to prefer the vanilla perverts.

intern for no Clinton...
Ride in no car, driven by any Kennedy...
Never hunt with Cheney.
No sleepover with M. Jackson....

See, perspective changes depending you which parallax view you take.

I think not.

I said, *I* would (usually) prefer one type of pervert to another.   No comments on what sort of purposes I would prefer what sort of pervert in.

Generally, political perverts are an evil that has to be endured, so one takes the lesser of them, which can change from time to time.

Other types of perverts may need anything from spanking to hanging.  Some I would be happy to oblige, others, I would turn over to you...

"illegal's health care" is the same ER any vagrant is entitled to, because we don't like seeing bodies in the street, because it reduces property values.

"illegal's education" is children, as discussed in Plyler vs. Doe - read it and deal with it.  

"demonizing (we are not sure what you mean here, but we don't think you'd know either) the one channel thru which they actually earn their way thru" is another thing you don't know - there is no way that any old person can be legalized.

This is not a matter of registration, pal.   Not just any old body can apply and be let into the USA.  Which is exactly as it should be - but then, a whole lot of Americans wouldn't be let in, either, except for the accident of their birth.  Like people who lie about their arrests and military records, people who say they didn't inhale when they were smoking dope, people like that can be elected president, but are disqualified from coming to the USA.

Should we change this?  Hell no.  I'd be MORE restrictive; I know all about supply and demand.   OTOH, I do not believe that we as a nation should shoot ourselves in the foot, either.  My desire to deport dumbass US citizens is unfortunately unconstitutional; but I am not going to get closer to my goal by deporting smart, hardworking pochos.   I think there should be a close correlation between who we let in and what we want; but I'm not going to - as we have not in the past - going to spend obscene amounts chasing unknown swarthy folks when there are felons running around loose.  Everything is a matter of priorities and good judgment, which I realize is a concept that is completely strange to you...

they can provide a judgement that does not provide an equitable solution.  That is, there is a tax burden placed on the folk of Texas as most of the burden of paying for the local schools is born by property tax, which by virtue of being migrant, these folk do not contribute.  

What really has people in an uproar, is the unfair and illegal entry.   When others who are willing to contribute are forced to go through mind games to be afforded entry.  

Yea, Know what the doc. says... simple matter is - the burden would not be there if the feds had done their job in the first place of guarding the border.  end of story....

Sorry Sprocket, again an  inconsistency.... the feds don't enforce one law, but pick another one, more of a burden on the legal residents to enforce... Illogical and selective enforcement....

this does not compute.

any dult knows illegal alien and a vagrant who is a citizen are not equal

try fewer words..

no doubt you would rather do it from home with your ouija board...Plyler noted that the law of Texas required all residents, without regard to immigration status, go to school; and as such, believed that TX bound itself by its own laws...if TX wanted to fund its schools another way, that is of course up to it...and there is of course no law against an illegal owning land, nor is there any reason any renter's kids should be denied schooling.  Sadly, the Supremes just cannot know as much about FAIRNESS as Bizarredude...I guess he will just have to deal with it...



-- Modified on 4/28/2006 8:50:30 AM

my massive sarcasm reaction into play.

Don't you ever engage your brain before you run your mouth?

How is it good to hire illegal immigrants with the idea that they can be paid less?  That is a form of racism, not made any better by the fact that it's profitable or just business.  Demonization?  That seems rather human to me.  If businesses are amoral about pursuing profits, they can't complain when the response from the rest of society looks  amoral to them, too.  Period.  

I am for simplifying the immigration process.  From just practicality, however, we don't have the personnel to effectively go after illegals singly.  It's like stomping on fleas.  There are fewer businesses, and they have records.  Like it or not, it has a certain justice to it, and it's more practical.  Why should just any random business be considered better than the unregistered immigrant?

How is it good to hire illegal immigrants with the idea that they can be paid less?  That is a form of racism, not made any better by the fact that it's profitable or just business.  Demonization?  That seems rather human to me.  If businesses are amoral about pursuing profits, they can't complain when the response from the rest of society looks  amoral to them, too.  Period.  

I am for simplifying the immigration process.  From just practicality, however, we don't have the personnel to effectively go after illegals singly.  It's easier to trap a cat than to capture the fleas.  There are fewer businesses, and they have records.  Like it or not, it has a certain justice to it, and it's more practical.  Why should just any random business be considered better than the unregistered immigrant?

The presence of Illegal immigrants.  The Feds GET IT THE FEDS - FAILED to do their job to "defend and protect" the US.  Because of this primary failure, then a cascade of other unintended consequences "happen"  It is this primary failure that I object to.

like taxes.

I can't say about taxes, but I can point out that history (ie what all the specific individuals have done with his papers) is an immutable fact of immigration law, so simplifying may be doomed - we can't unwind history.

Maybe better to say resolve.  OTOH, as I am fond of pointing out, the policy is demographics, which is a subset of economics, and it's like pushing water - sort of hard to do.

Maybe a good start in understanding is by comparing it to municipal zoning.

and while you're at it, tell us exactly how these lawn boys and baby sitters are ruining the country.

I'll tell you what I think.  Look out on the freeway, and notice that it's almost always either (a) jammed and nonfunctioning, or (b) traffic flow (ie, 3/4s of the cars) is running at 70+ mph.

Looks like we're just a nonfunctional nation of scofflaws.   But somehow we still manage, and still kick everybody else's asses.

But goddammit, it's them illegals that are the root cause of our problems.  THEY are the ones crowding our freeways with SUVs and Beemers, and making us guzzle all that gas; and it's them GODDAM illegals what made us go to Iraq.

And while we're talking about ragheads, let me point out that all of the 9/11 conspirators were legal.   Does that suggest that maybe fixating on legal status ain't gonna solve that particular problem???

Don't let me keep you from blowing off steam.  But you could get the fuck out of the way of the people who are actually contributing.

Sorry, I had to use a line I've always wanted to hear in Star Trek.

You mean the history of the individual immigrants, as I suspect?  What do you mean about not "unwinding" history then?  I have to say, you've seemingly obscured the point with that.  

I'm writing, though, about simplifying the initial process that locates an immigrant officially in the country and starts the record keeping.  How much they fill out to begin with and what they are issued.  What is built upon this as an immigrant's history is tied to that initial event bureacratic event.  

If you can't shape the demographics to conform with the policy, you shape the policy to conform to the demographics.

we in the U.S. are so dim witted as to be unable to at the border, ask, who  you are, where you are going, how long you will be in the country and what you will do in this country...  Gee, the exact same questions, I have been asked in very country I have entered from Japan to Germany...

Oh, and to top it off, he wishes to just "poof" make them citizens in the hope that they will "just know" the law and to assimilate.  Magic  you see, just like Star Trek...

Maybe I was just puzzled by Spock's choice of words.  

I think everyone starts out in this country not knowing the law and having to "assimulate."  

I thought the US was strong before because of the fact that most everyone could restart life here.  Indeed, the first settlers from Europe did just that.  I would assume that the indians did just that too when they came from Asia and kicked the butts of whoever was here before that (referring to Kennewick man).

Just because nation-states do immigration in the way you describe doesn't mean that we must.  It seems a far less important thing to jettison than say, the Geneva Convention or the ABM treaty.  

Without immigrants, I'm afraid this country would be dead.  Culturally, economically, scientifically, dead.    

or without considering the generation of people alive today, who can easily have been in the US 50 years.   There are individuals and families who have  long legal and vested rights, and the history of US policy, especially recently, has been not to pay for it and enforce it, but to change it so goddamned often that a person can do nothing constructive, only complain.

We have simply not been willing to pay, and we have vastly overestimated the ability of technology to track people, and we have focused on the regulatory aspect of the process, instead of the end goals, the issues of security and economics.

So I fear that our focus today will be as much wasted effort as it has been in the past.

instead of "feeling" that we know all about each other...eg, believing based on your own feelings, rather than my words, that I would wish to make "them" whoever they are, into citizens.

You are too stupid to understand that my point is, that we are in fact doing all these things, and they still don't work, because people are in fact determined to come help us mow our lawns and do casual labor, because it's incredibly better than living under the PRI.  We personally find it very easy to say yes or no thank you, or even gracias; we do not also need to spit or shout, or make fun of a man who couldn't shower this morning, because we have been in situations where we couldn't shower - too busy chasing dinks, you know?

We are all supposed to know the law.  You're supposed to know the law, and you obviously don't.   Neither you nor the illegal are excused for your ignorance in any way.

Given your level of logic, breeding cockroaches would be a marked improvement in our nation.

-- Modified on 5/1/2006 12:52:37 AM

and the other has determination and initiative, and most would make good Americans in my country, but you'd rather have the welfare slobs, so we'll have to disagree...

Try more brains....

The real question is are we willing to give up that much privacy.  My answer to that question is no, I am not.... not that I am doing anything illegal mind you, and not that there is anything wrong with that...

Mr. Spock, you are starting to grow on me.... as this makes some degree of sense.... mindless sense - but kind of like  a fog...

2 rules for human endeavor...
physical laws of the known universe.... and
politics...

not sure I've got them in the correct order.

(since we usually think of the other fellow, not us) but also the practicality of technology.  Doing something once in a laboratory is one thing; making a system work to acceptable probabilities in the field, when administered by civil servants and actively evaded by customers, is another thing entirely.   Lab not field.  We routinely overestimate what will work.

police respond right away, you do not have to report your location because the cell phone has a locator built right in - all ya gots to do is turn it on.  Onstar, I know.... blond star... but hey, that technology is in use NOW.  not in some lab... transponders -

It is not a theoretical issue to be worked out in some lab - the tech is there now.  I don't know about you but I was in the military in the Viet Nam era, and the technology that was available then (not now) would knock your socks off - and we have improved it tremeandously.  

There are incredible decryption algorithms that can monitor speech - and make a determination of what is being said - and what the emotion is.... Not theoretical - in operation....

But i do agree  which is why my caution about politics.... do I trust civil servants with the power to know my conversations and my goings and comings?  no...   Do you use fastpass on turnpikes?  if so, you do realize that can be used to monitor speeding (distance between checkpoints/time between passing = MPH).

Believe me, what can be done, and what is done....

it exposes the deficency of your arguement

try fewer words and more thought

btw, have i mentioned lately how UNimpresive your posts are when weighted for volume....?

there, i guess i just did....

Technology is wonderful.  But usually the people who invent it have almost no concept of the vast number of ways it can be misused.

People who WANT to use the technology will screw it up.  People who don't want it used against them will figure out ways to turn it against you.

my second concern is POLITICS !  sheese....  That is my concern.... what we can to technically, what we are already doing technically would put the original star trek to shame.... it is the political nature of the beast that is the concern.  I said that already....


Mr. Spock - it is you who cannot read - and you think that we are all just waiting for you to enlighten us, but often I find your quips to be misleading - wrong "factoid" for the specific item or even worse, leaving out vital information or NOT answering the question.

it seems to me that you don't understand the question.

Try getting your GED at the local night school - if you can get in.

do you or your cousins have any schools in particular you'd recommend?

or ER's for that matter?