mistakenly double-clicked
-- Modified on 11/23/2005 8:45:54 PM
This is a reprint from further down the forum, my second half response to Xiaoming was somewhat lost in the shuffle of all the other comments...
-------------------------------------
continued from Epilogue Part 1
http://www.theeroticreview.com/discussion_boards/viewmsg.asp?MessageID=27059&boardID=39&page=1
You submit only one of the alternatives you produced would work for me. Guess what, there was an alternative you forgot about. Peaceful co-existence. (pause for a moment while that radical notion is intellectually digested). You dismissed my statement that the residents of the newly created State of Israel were asked to stay and work together with the Jews. But you neglect to mention the simultaneous Declaration of War against Israel by the entire Arab world.
You are quick to point the finger of blame on Israel, but you seem to forget that the CHARTER of "Palestine" expressly calls for the total destruction of the State of Israel, and Genocide against ALL Jewish people.
You neglect to acknowledge the almost uninterrupted flow of blatant Jew-hating diatribes, from the Blood Libel canard published just this past May by the GOVERNMENT SPONSORED NEWSPAPER in Saudi Arabia, to the perpetual depiction of Jews in Arab elementary school texts as monstrous evil child-eating cannibals.
you obligingly overlook the fact in all Arab school texts, there is no acknowledgement of the State of Irael other than as the Zionist Entity. And you support them.
Jews are not allowed into Arab countries. Jewish engineers are expressly and specifically excluded from working in Saudi Arabia.
Jewish soldiers stationed in Saudi Arabia during Gulf 1 were encouraged to hide their identities, to remove their mezuzzah's and Stars of David from around their necks. Why? Because the Arabs don't want any Jews in their country.
They don't want these so-called "Palestinians" either. Otherwise, why else are they so insistent on being allowed to go to work inside Israel, when their own Arab governments and "Muslim Brethren" won't give them the time of day unless there's a bomb belt attached to the timer. And you support them.
On 911, Israel called for a Day of Mourning in solidarity with the families of those killed.
The "Palestinians" you so ardently support, were dancing in the streets and cheering and firing their guns in the air... footage shown only briefly on international television before it was finally squashed from public view. Heaven forbid we should let the world see the truth about the Arab Muslim mentality.
And you support them?
In closing, i wish to share with you the following comparison: Arab leaders from Nasser to Saddam Hussein to the piece of SHIT Arafat to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran have all called for the total unmitigated genocide of the Jewish people.
By comparison, the late great Golda Meir,former Prime Minister of Israel most famously said:
"I can forgive the Arabs for killing my children, but I cannot forgive them for forcing me to kill THEIR children."
Shalom, and thanks for reading.
dumbfucks who chase away guys with names like Fermi and Einstein at the point of a gun, take their chances that these guys may be useful to the other side...
Question - if you disagreed with DoctorGonzo would you think this was well written and well thought out?
comments were not only extremely well written and well thought out, but they were factual and truthful as well. We're all waiting for your SPECIFIC RESPONSES to the various points he brought up. Up to this point, you haven't responded to anything in his post. That too is a fact.
Look again.
In fact, the lengthy middle section, I had already conceded the correctness of DoctorGonzo's position appx six weeks ago. Still disagree with most of what he believes on this topic, though. There is one section to which I haven't responded, and for the folks who torture themselves with my postings, I'll get to it [the part about the Arab gov'ts expelling their Jewish populations post-1948].
I wonder, if truthful is not in the eye [or the heart?] of the beholder on a topic like this? As you and DoctorGonzo are on the same page politically, he meets your approval and you praise his work. What if he was just as good, just as factual,just as organized, just as coherent, but just happened to be on a different page politically?
Peace, good health and a good holiday to you.
responses to his points, and trying to hide behind semantics. Yes, he and I are on the same page politically ON THIS SUBJECT, but not on some others. But I thought his originating post on this thread was very well done, and to answer one of your questions, some of his other posts that I definitely did NOT agree with were very well done as well. Sorry, but I think your posts are not nearly as good, some are not factual at all, many are disorganized, and in some cases incoherent as well (such as the post I'm responding to right now, which I view as an insipid plea begging me to praise your posts as being worthy of my approval despite the fact that I disagree with much of what you think and write). You seem to have a strong need for recognition and approval, and fancy yourself as an intellectual. While you're far from stupid, you aren't as smart as you'd like to think you are (which is true for just about all of us in fact). Indeed, about the only thing that I'm curious about is what kind of life you lead. My guess is that you're a remarkably unhappy person who seems to have a compelling need to have the last word in just about every thread he gets involved in, many times with rather long, rambling posts. Why don't you write a book on the Arab-Israeli subject? At the rate you're going, the conflict will be over before the book is finished.
-- Modified on 11/23/2005 9:00:14 PM
Thank you for the kind words and compliments.
I'm curious to know where we disagree
Happy Thanksgiving.
person's beliefs on this board, DoctorGonzo, my guess (and really that's all it is) would be that you're more liberal than I am on a number of subjects. I'm clearly on the liberal side on most social issues (I think we'd be in agreement on most things here), but lean toward the conservative side on economics (my field) and foreign policy (where we would likely disagree on a number of issues). For instance, Bush is an idiot and has made any number of mistakes, but I don't think for a minute that he purposely lied to the American public. I do, however, think that his information was unbelieveably faulty. Bush is incredibly stubborn, and some of the opposition against him in Congress is hypocritical beyond belief. Anyway, you can see where this is going - I think I hate them all! I wish I had the solution to the quagmire in Iraq, but unfortunately I don't.
is a continuum from cold-blooded conspiracy to indifference, through many degrees of recklessness.
Intent is even more ambiguous in large organizations or associations, since it doesn't have the consciousness of a natural person.
The real risk in a large organization is that the group will come to reflect the leader in ways the leader did not anticipate, even where other more intelligent or experienced people may have anticipated.
So if a person is intellectually sloppy, and unconcerned about detail or perspective, or simply distracted by other issues, or simply does not have the talent or ability, for example to speak coherently, then it shouldn't at all be surprising that the group would eventually refect the same problems.
Deliberate misrepresentation is of course a critical problem; but whether it's deliberate or merely careless, it still comes down to the same question in the end - when can a group depend on their leader?
If you don't think i've addressed, however unsuccessfully, the majority of the points rasised by DoctorGonzo in his various posts, please read again if you can stand it. Makes me wonder if you disaproval of my opinions are getting in the way of understanding what I'm trying to write, however disorganized and incoherent I sometimes am.
Need for approval. No more than any other homo sapien, but not from the almost total strangers I communicate with on this Board.
Need to get in the last word? Nah, not really. but if i figure someone has taken the time to read anything I post, and than taken even more time and trouble to respond, as you have, I own the courtsey of a reply. Even if the response was an unfriendly one. Call me silly, but.. Simple 'enuf?
Nah, don't fancy myself an intellectual.
Terrible life, as I communicated to you a few months ago in an earlier post with identical subject matter and emotional tone. I don't think my threads ramble so much as they try to explore points not easy sumarized in siple declarative sentences, and I try to acknowlegde opposite points of view and weaknesses in my own arguments. Just like the sentence immediately preceding this one. See how that works?
I could make you happy with "Israel good. Palestinians bad" but I'll leave that to someone else who actually experiences those sentiments. And whose [mis?]understanding of the problem is at that basic level. No doubt you'll heartily approve.
Write a book? Not a bad thought. I'm thinking of something like "Ariel Sharon - Humanitarian" [admitedly a challenging topic} or "Israel And The Destruction of US Foreign Policy Interests In the Near East." Now the latter topic WOULD take prety much forever to write. and i know that I could not expect your approval [sniff sniff, sob sob, tear].
Despite our differences, Shalom, Salaam, Peace, Good Health and a Happy Thanksgiving to you. And i'll be off the board until Late Sunday at the earliest. Until then.
Then again, it'll never get written because, like I said before, the Arab-Israeli conflict will be settled and over before you finish! I also find it interesting that you're waking up so early on Thanksgiving morning to write all your responses on this thread. This board must be really important to you, and a MAJOR part of your life, huh? In any case, Happy Thanksgiving!
I now await your response, which for sure will be forthcoming given your obsessive-compulsive need to have the last word.
-- Modified on 11/24/2005 7:58:15 AM
WhoopieDoo, as much as you seem to loathe me because of what I believe [not a bad reason as far as these things go] and what I write, let me assure you that :
1. you seem to have an obsessive compulsion to post and respond and to try to get in the last word as much, if not more so, than I do. How else you you explain why you bother to read and to respond to someone who you feel is so full of nonsense, so emotionally insecure, so ignorant of the facts concerning the topic at hand?
You're no doubt an intelligent fellow, in a previous post you mentioned that you are retired from a succesful Wall Street career, have you ever heard the phrase "physician, heal thyself"?
So, why not put BOTH of us out of our respective misery, as well as any innocent bystanders on the Board, and refrain from responding? After all, I sense that you feel i'm not worth the trouble. But somehow I sense you waiting by the computer, e-mail application poised and ready, sweaty hand anxiously clutching the mouse, chomping at the bit waiting to pounce upon whatever fatuities and nonsense I post... Think it over, WhoopieDoo, it's probably not worth the time and effort you put into it.
2. I'm an early riser by nature and by virtue of the hours I work. Thanksgiving finds me having to travel some distance to be with a family that makes me contemplate the overlooked benefts of orphanhood, so I have to get an early start w/o regard to what you might think the hours I keep. As well, I didn't want you to have to wait several days for a reponse, polite guy that I am, and I didn't want you to think that I was ducking you. Not that you appreciate it. Hence... And if this is THE BEST you can do by way of response, let alone a substantive one, well maybe I'm the one wasting my time?
3. I've already finished the "Ariel Sharon : Humanitarian" work. It's an essay, not a book-length treatment. And as you might guess, it's very, very brief due to lack of verifiable research materials.
4. Yeah, the board is important. Makes house arrest go down a little more interestingly. Now, if that bloody ankle tracker didn't chaffe so much...
5. Thanksgiving was adequate. The dinner at the Bowery Mission was undercooked and the place was too damn crowded [only kiding]. Hope your's was substantially better.
You'll note this was composed and sent in the evening. Feel better?
to try to convince yourself that your "got to have the last word" responses are "a courtesy" and an "attempt to continue the discussion." That's a crock, and I (and I'm sure many others) can see right through it. No, I think it's in your compulsive nature to have the last word, and by your continued responses to my posts that really don't have any particular subject matter other than my pointing out your compulsion, you're doing a very good job of proving my point. As to the question as to whether or not it's worth my time and effort, well, that's my decision - not yours. As to whether or not it's worth your time to respond, that's a decision that only you can make. One thing's for sure - my continued responses to WHATEVER you write will, given your compulsive nature, keep you at the keyboard, and that brings a smile to my face. So, we can end it now, or continue this ad infinitum. Your choice. I'm retired, and have all sorts of time to post continually (except for a near-term trip to Hawaii that will take me away for a week). Until your next post then...
-- Modified on 11/27/2005 7:02:21 PM
to project upon me your own faults. Or whatever it is you think you're doing. I've ruled out in your case the possibility of formulating intelligent comments for reasons which ought to be painfully obvious.
See what I mean?
You are as obsessive-compulsive as you seem to feel I am.
And when you admit that your posts have no particular subject - except to point out what you believe to be my fatuities and foolishness - well you condemn yourself in your attempt to condemn me. As well as demonstrating an unhealthy[?] and irrational [?] preoccupation with someone you loathe [or do you?] and think little of [or do you?]. But that's OK. As I wrote prviously, this makes house arrest time go a little more amusingly.
I'll be ungentlemanly and point out HOW promptly YOU responded to my post. Again, physician heal thyself?
Yes, it is a courtesy [but I'm beinging to feel it's wasted on you] but not an attempt to continue dialogue WITH YOU as I've yet to read anything remotely worthwhile posted under the name WhoopieDoo [sorry, haven't read your provider reviews, but I bet NONE of the young ladies in question were Arab? After all, they might be financing the PLO with your gifts!]
on the Politics Board [thinking about your posts can I suggest that you change your username to WhoopieDon't or WhoopieCan't? LOL!]. But hope springs eternal in this breast so I figure the law of averages will eventually come up in your favor and you'll post something worthwhile. Like the monkeys on the typewriters who manage to write the plays of Shakespeare! Of course, by then my book will be finished, published, remaindered, pulped, forgotten and there will be PEACE in the Near East..
WhoopieCan't, I'm game as long as you are. Glad you're retired, gives you more time to figure out how once again you will say nothing post after post after post... And remain so cluelessly oblivious to your own feckless ineffectuality, as you bask in the warm glow of your ideological soulmates on this Board.
Worth your time? I'm betting you have nothing else or better in your life, so you're more than happy for the attention. Just as you feel that is the case with me. See, you've reduced me to your level. Happy?
I'm younger than you, from what I can tell, so we can continue this indefinitely, it's your choice. Bt inasmuch as YOU NEED to get in the last word, Im not expecting to end this anytime soon. [But I do plan to take off from originating posts for 8 days in honor of Hannukah. How will you survive, WhoopieDon't?]
Masochistically looking forward to your reply, as I KNOW you are for mine.
Have a great trip. Hawaii's loss is my gain!
I can do a much better job of insulting you than your feeble attempts to insult me, but to do so would just be stupid. So I'll just let you ramble on so you can prove to everyone how pitiful you really are, although in fact you've done that countless times already.
-- Modified on 11/27/2005 10:26:25 PM
Woopiedoo, don't forget you're arguing with a latter day reincarnation of Diogenes! What applies to the greek Diogenes doesn't apply to us ordinary mortals.Don't ask him to stop using an alias so we can check HIS providers,but HE's priviledged to ask you! Pathetic isn't it?..what a PIA!
-- Modified on 11/28/2005 10:51:46 AM
examples of his mentality was his comment about my "feckless ineffectuality." Let's see, if my "ineffectuality" is "ineffective," does that mean I'm effective? Whatever, it's his feeble attempt at being an intellectual. But I must admit, pulling his chain is a lot of fun. Mocking him is easy because he sets himself up for it, and indeed I've had to hold myself back from doing it many times so as not to utterly bore the rest of the board. Nevertheless, I'm sure nearly everyone on the board can see right through him.
-- Modified on 11/28/2005 2:09:20 PM
Busted! Totally guily as charged with feckless ineffectuality.
Perhaps cluelessly oblivious [spelling?] might have been better. Well, too late now.
And speaking of pulling chains, I can imagine you racing to the keyboard eager to strike what you fancy to yet another telling blow against whatever it is I represent to you, panting with anticipation, eager to put the Arab-loving anti-Semitic Jew hater in his rightful place. It's not a pretty sight, a man of what I presume to be mature years and some accomplishment in life carrying on a schoolboy-like grudge, simply because we are at odds politically, via cyberspace. Well, as I indicated earlier, I'm game if you are and not to worry, I don't take any of it personally.
Don't worry about holding back. I suspect that
you're already utterly bored the life out of the Board already on ?? occassions. So why stop now? So fire away, let's see what you're got! Or do you and Riem just plan to continue to post each other indefinitely discussing what a clod you believe me to be?
Can you provide an example of something nonsensical I've posted that you refrained from commenting upon in a way that would bring down much-deserved, in your estimation, ridicule and contempt upon me?
See through me? WhoopieDoo, guys who live in glass houses...I mean, if I'm transparent you're a pane of freshly washed glass. Not quite sure yet what Riem is, probably a guy who befriends bullies and other unpleasant sorts to avoid becoming a target himself? I imagine, and I might be wrong, that for most of your life people told you that you were a smart and imaginative guy. Too bad you believed them. And I'm paying the price.
So, again, fire away. You are as amusing to me as I am to you. I just wonder if I am as tiresome to you as you are to me? You say nothing substantive IMHO so why do you bother? Retirement can't be that bad.
Imitative as heck!
I used the ZZZZZZZZZZZZs several posts earlier?
Whoopiedoo, has your mind gone soft from too much hobying. Is this the best you can do?
At lest your buddy Riem hasn't stooped to copying from a bozo like me!
Ah, Riem baby, piling on, are we?
But I guess it was too much to expect you to get a humorous [I had hoped] jibe at your intellectual soulmate WhoopieDoo. And the intelectual is used loosely.
Really, I have no more interest in what or who you two fellows do than yo have in my activities.
Pathetic? But YOU also keep replying? What gives?
You can do better than this. Or can you?
Read aloud your own post?
Yes Whopiedoo, I've got as long rambling response for you and your comrade in arms Riem but thinking of the two of you makes mr sleepy ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!
Yes, perhaps I'm pitiful, but YOU continue to respond?
Amazing?
Or...?
IF you can count that far?
you can now continue this thread and correspond with yourself, which is something you should enjoy immensely as there will be no-one around to disagree with you or make fun of you. I'll be away for a while, as I've decided to extend my little trip and visit some friends in Australia. But rest assured, I'll be back! Bye-bye now.
You have friends? I wouldda never guessed. Now those must really be some kind folks.
Hawaii's and Australia's loss is this Board's gain. Occurs to me that it's only fitting that you have friends Down Under, as you've proved for the last several days that you're clearly a guy with his head up his ass.
Hope Reim can carry on w/o you. Or at least get his own idea to post.
-- Modified on 11/29/2005 5:21:57 PM
your own cock! I guess Xiaoming was too busy sucking everybody else's cock to bother with you.
As for friends, I have plenty, and you obviously have none. You're ignorant and pathetic, and not only do I not have any pity for you, but I'm enjoying your discomfort and annoyance as you realize that people don't like you and think you're repulsive. And yes, you're clearly a guy that has shit for brains and is utterly clueless.
Oh well, back to more important things. I'm sure you'll appreciate the fact that I took a few minutes to jump on a handy computer to deliver this heartfelt message. More when I get back, because we all know that you will soon respond with some more useless inanities as a result of your OC psychoneurotic disorder. Will you again claim that you are responding as a "courtesy" or "to continue the discussion" or some other bullshit like that?
-- Modified on 12/4/2005 8:36:18 AM
mistakenly double-clicked
-- Modified on 11/23/2005 8:45:54 PM
I think it's time to recognise that you're arguing with a polemicist who shall we say, is "ill-disposed" toward "Zionists"(aka Jews!) and is likely to respond to you with yes but....Of course it would have been helpful if your correspondent had practical experience with the dangers of suicide bombings faced by every Israeli instead of bookish based philosophy...
You've a better chance to convince a "religious fundamentalist"in..... Iran!
from the start!
it does not change the fact that unless there is open dialog of an honorable nature, the fog of ignorance and misunderstanding will never be lifted.
Unlike others with whom i have clashed in the past, I have come to believe that Xiaoming, unlike "he who must not be named" aka funtime69
(sorry, the Harry Potter reference was too tempting to pass up) believes himself to be able to separate a political anti-Israel stance, from the more odious label of anti-Semite. I believe him.
I never expected to change his mind. I did hope for an intellectual, non-rancorous debate. That much, I believe, has been achieved.
The journey of a thousand miles, begins with a single step.
Ok, its way past 4:20 in Greenland... got to get caught up. WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
-- Modified on 11/21/2005 10:34:09 AM
"fog of ignorance and misunderstanding," it may not be SUFFICIENT to do so. But no matter what, it would appear that Xiaoming is certainly more intelligent than FT69 (for that matter, so is Koko). Unfortunately, I doubt that his views will change irrespective of what is written on these boards, so IMHO, further debate is a waste of time. Xiaoming can go on ad infinitum on this subject, and if you want to continue this discourse with him, I'm sure both of you will be kept rather busy responding to each other.
BTW, you commented earlier that Xiaoming is an alias, and that he hasn't written any reviews. But we don't really know that, do we? Perhaps he has under his "official" handle, not that it matters. Hell, I've written reviews under my "official" handle, but am currently writing under an alias as well. Actually, I like the idea of aliases. I think it adds more color to the boards, and some of the aliases I've seen are truly creative!
Sometimes, an occasional airing of differences between a polemicist such as Xiaoming, and a subjective veteran of the opposing view will serve to give people otherwise uninformed about the issue an opportunity to see the bigger picture. At least Xiaomings comments have a semblance of thoughtfullness behind them, as opposed to the knee jerk hating espoused by FT69.
Even if they are anathema to me. and vice versa, of course.
I suspect the extraordinary turn of events in Israeli politics will make for good press for awhile but the "debate" between Xiaoming and the Doc has run its course for the moment...
plus its a holiday weekend, and im getting ready to move.
Shalom
A polemicist, eh? I've been called worse.
Oops - you've got that syllogism again - can't criticize Israel because to do so is to criticize Jewish people and that's ... anti-Semitism. Sorry, not buying it. You're implicitly asking Israel to be put above criticism. Oh, come on, you can't really be serious with this? And why should anyone be foolish enough to play along and allow you to dictate the basic terms of the arguement?
Question to you - can you please give me an example of a criticism of Israel that IS NOT anti-Semitic [and this I define as motivated by hatred of the Jewish people and the Jewish faith]. I'll give you until the end of the year to post it, and i'll dissect it if i can.
And by the way, in a previous post I asked you to give me one example of how supporting Israel is a benefit to the US - and I'm still waiting for That response.
By the same token, instead of gazing starry-eyed upon your Isreli heroes from the safety and comfort of the US, might it not also be true that YOU might have a different perspective on things if you and yer family were dispossed of their property, displaced from their homes, and forced to wallow in squalor in a refugee/displaced persons camp while your conquerors ran around constantly promoting themselves and trumpeting their [imaginary?] political and ethical superiority?
Think about it.
I'm willing to have my mind changed, just produce worthwhile arguments, not endless emotional outbursts. and don't sulk if someone is impolite enough to beg to differ.
your comment:
By the same token, instead of gazing starry-eyed upon your Isreli heroes from the safety and comfort of the US, might it not also be true that YOU might have a different perspective on things if you and yer family were dispossed of their property, displaced from their homes, and forced to wallow in squalor in a refugee/displaced persons camp while your conquerors ran around constantly promoting themselves and trumpeting their [imaginary?] political and ethical superiority?
Think about it.
My response is simple: Every single Aunt and Uncle of mine I ever met, were survivors of the Nazi concentration camps. My mother survived auschwitz, my father escaped from Dachau. I had a half-brother I never met because he was killed by the Nazi's before I was born.
Oh, you want perspective? I'll give you perspective. Spend your childhood being awakened every night at least once by the blood curdling screams of your mothers nightmares of Auschwitz.
Oh, one more thing. The United States is currently giving Israel $2.1 billion in Foreign Aid. This compares favorably with the $2.4 billion dollars the United States gave EGYPT in foreign aid last year.
Put it all together, and you have 1 month of the Iraqi war.
So... i'll toss one more gauntlet. for every positive reason you can come up with to justify the US giving $2.4 billion to Egypt every year, i'll give you two reasons why it is of positive benefit for the us to give Israel $2.1 billion.
And I'm just going to toss a brushback pitch concerning the reality of over $5 billion dollars in US Foreign Aid sent to the Palestinian Authority that wound up in the coffers of the piece of shit Arafat and his odious cronies, as well as the black market arms merchants who sold them the weapons (for those same American dollars meant for infrastructure) to blow up Israeli farmers and teenagers with. And you support these animals. Amazing.
Ok "Bubele"... Happy Thanksgiving, and I look forward to your response. I may be the only one, but I am paying attention.
I'd toss back the question: Don't give me emotional outbursts about how I'd feel if I were a refugee living in squalid camps deprived by the israelis of their homes and whatever possessions.
As the saying goes you reap what you sow! It's a verifiable FACT that the jews ACCEPTED the '47 UN resolution while the LEADERS of those miserable refugees REJECTED it! It's also a FACT that their own leaders coaxed them to leave their homes TEMPORARILY to return AFTER the victorious arabs drove the jews out of 'FALASTIN'!.It's a FACT that it didn't happen and I ask: Name 1 VICTORIOUS army in history who showed magnanimity by asking the defeated to please come back to their homes while jews were being dispossessed in the DEFEATED armies'countries.
I'm open to refutation of such facts with other FACTS but excluding convoluted rhetoric even if it's presented in a pseudo-scholarly form!
-- Modified on 11/23/2005 11:18:01 AM
All the CAPS. What anger!!! And to think I'm the cause? I oughtta put these questionable skills to more personaly productive uses.
Of course the Jewish population of Palestine in 1947 voted to accept the UN Partition Plan. It was more than the already had at the time, and it confered legitimacy on the Yishuv, so it was a win-win situation for them. Stop trying to dress up a basically smart and self-interested move as some titanic display of virtue and generosity and foresight. Gee. Gimme a break guy.
Of course the Palestinians and the Arab population of Palestine rejected the UN Partition Plan in 1947, for the same reasons the Jewish population accepted it. Theirs too was a self-interested move, but as it turns out one not rewarded by the eventual unfolding of events.
'FALASTIN? You're got to calm done. I doubt you are willing to recognize a fact with which you disagree or which in some way weakens the integrity of your beliefs.
Fact - did the Israelis invite the dispossed/self-dispossed Arbs back after 1948? That would impede the integrity of building a Jewish State. The expulsion of their Jewish populations by the other Arab states after 1948 is indefensible, but THE FACT IS it served well the interests of Israel [making it all the more ironic] as they lost a presumably hostile Arab population and gained the desired, supportive, Jewish population from accross the Near East. Fact - you omit to mention this, as it does no good to the emotional tone of outrage with which you are posting. Assuming you recognize the irony in how these events unfolded.
Convoluted rhetoric, psuedo-scholarly forms? I DO plead guilty on occassion. But as the ideas I try to express are not simple, subject to qualification, open to contrary interpretations, and as I often point out posible weaknesses in my own positions, sometimes the sentences will be lengthy. Just like the preceding sentence. See how that can happen? Can't be helped. I suggest to you, as I have done with others, that perhaps your disagreement with what i write is getting in the way of understanding what I write. Not to be a bitchy creep, but take a look at your sentence beginning "It's a FACT that it didn't happen..." which strikes me as no great model of formulation or coherence which I ought to emulate. But no matter - I just chalk it up to emotion and the rush to post in response. I've committed similar atrocities [and countless typos] so it's all part ofthe game, and as you and others note, in no position to cast any stones.
That's it until at least late Sunday. though I think we've pretty much exhausted this topic for now.
Shalom. Salaam. Peace. Good Health. Happy Thanksgiving.
Hope this doesn't detract from the quality of your holiday DoctorGonzo, but :
1. Cannot gainsay your experience personally and via your extended family of the effects of genocide. If these were my experiences, no doubt i would feel as you do.
2. You not so subtely omit mention of the additional billions the US provides Israel in military supplies. You omit mention of the hundreds of millions in "tax expenditures" [taxes foregone on things like charitible contributions to Israeli causes, philanthropic gifts to the Jewish state and the like], monies not appropriated but foregone by virtue of operation of the charitable contributions allowed by the US tax code. Likewise, what is the value of all the advanced US technology, developed at considerable cost to the US taxpayer, which Israel year afer years gets to have first look at? We're become unwittingly their R&D facility. And how much has the Israeli high-tech sector benefited from this? And how much gets wrongly appropriated and transfered, for profit, to third parties, despite denials from all parties involved. [Now we've gotten to what I really want to argue - the value to the US of supporting Israel - not the relative worth of the contending parties to the conflict]. no way to estimate the $$$$ value, but i'm betting it far exceed the $$$ we bestow upon the questionable Egyptians.
I'm really cynical here, but I think of US aid to Egypt [and to Jordan, as well as the tiny amount to Syria] as essentially a bribe to Egypt to get them to sign the Peace Traety with Isrel. Note the almost total absence of aid to Egypt prior to that treaty and the tremendous expansion post-traety. So, as far as I'm concerned, that's US $$$ being spent on Israel. The US gets frightfully little for this expenditure, but as we are the uber-suckers of the world, it seems it's par for the course for our foreign policy there.
3. Can't deny the allegations of corruption on the part of Arafat/his cronies/the PA itself. It's part of the political culture there, and I don't think it's going to change anytime soon. But if we looked at the Israeli side with a similar jaundiced eye i wonder what we would find. For example, i've read that Ari Sharon is the single biggest private property holder in Israel. I don't know if this is true, but it makes me wonder. How much, if any of that land he allegedly owns is in the West Bank? How did he get it? Can US military assistance to Israel be construed, however indirectly, as a payment to keep Ari's private holdings safe?
Absolutely my last word for the next several days.
Shalom. Salaam. Peace. Good Health. Happy Thanksgiving.
is that hate of Israel serves well the rulers of the region by diverting attention from the real internal problem of providing a better living standard to their population- a long established psychological tactic implemented through their religious clerics with fiery mosque sermons against the devil jews! This puts the issue back to square 1 how to transform the mideast into "secular" democracies...a herculean task to say the least,which Dubya bought into and which would take (by a conservative estimate)at least as long as it took europe to emerge from the middle age........
PS this applies equally to israeli/palestinian co-existence as they too are subject to pressure from the neighbor country clerics not to give up jerusalem or the right of return of the "refugees"
-- Modified on 11/21/2005 11:48:38 AM